Mantoids and Sexual Cannibalism

Karbo wrote:

rcs619 wrote:

Nagas, and to a lesser extent, slug girls are the ONLY ones.

No actually dryads, gyspas, chlaenas and some others enter this category too.

I remind people that Mantoids are not an integrated species. They belongs to Kiki since she choose to retain ownership of them during the round of asking two years ago. So she should be the one to decide in the end.

Personnaly if the males are half-size I don't see why it couldn't work.

Well, I've lost a little more faith in this community.

Fucking ridiculous.

I hope that everyone will continue to join me in ignoring this useless, tacked on, and nonsensical racial trait.

For what it's worth, I do believe that Cliff has a point. Double-teaming him like that seems a little... over-the-top.

Karbo wrote:

rcs619 wrote:

Nagas, and to a lesser extent, slug girls are the ONLY ones.

No actually dryads, gyspas, razias, chlaenas and some others enter this category too.

Cliff meant that not only have a stretchy throat, but also a distending mouth. I just remembered that my Meirami Mermaids have a very stretchy throat, and a somewhat stretchy mouth, but they wouldn't be able to swallow a prey as large as a naga roughly the size of a Meiramine could.

ok...let me just get all the things ok because Karbo says it would be best to ge everthing on one post to show my ideas and what I'm trying to get at...

Alright...so the males are about roughly half the size of he average female Mantoid...also the mandtoid race has somewhat a strechy throat like ome of the other races that allow them to swallow some larger pray...but not too large...this allows them to actually swallow the male...

so afer mating and the female is pregnat...the will need the nutrients to actualy support the egg growth and laying process...and since the female cant do too much from pregnacy...hunting is ALOT more difficult...if the female dosent gget the massive amoun of nutrients...she WILL die...so the female eats the male whcich gives just enough nutrients for the pregnacy...and he female can choose what way they eat male...

of course the female dosent have to eat the male...in fact...the male and female can even discus what they should d (weather the male is willing or and stuff of that sort) or the female can just do i right away if she is mean or somthing...but again the female dosent have to eat the male...if she dosent though...i's up to the male or her friends to help get the massive emount of food the female requires during the pregnacy....

this causes that most mantoid couples are actually closer to one another...( if the female didnt eat the male of course) since they are able to form dissitions with each other...even if the female eats the male...they can decide for themselves so even then the mantoid couple can be close to one another...

So wait, how can she gain nutrients for a whole batch of eggs if she's eating something much smaller?

And how can you die for not getting nutrients needed for pregnancy to begin with? Sorry but not much of this makes sense

Slimetoad wrote:

So wait, how can she gain nutrients for a whole batch of eggs if she's eating something much smaller?

by eating alot of food...

meanng they friends and the male will have to hunt alot of pray for the female...ALOT....

I'm just going to say, I don't mind males being slightly smaller, because that actually does happen with real life mantises. But everything else, and sorry if I'm being rude, is just completely stupid. Mantoids were a perfect race as they were before, adding stuff like this is unnecessary and just feels sloppy and tacked

Quote :

Alright...so the males are about roughly half the size of he average female Mantoid

No, that does not make sense. No other hybrid race has such a huge level of sexual dimorphism.

Quote :

also the mandtoid race has somewhat a strechy throat

Why? The only reason this physical trait is tacked on is to support your sexual cannibalism idea. There's literally no other reason for them to have this, which is a sign of a bad trait.

Quote :

like ome of the other races that allow them to swallow some larger pray...but not too large

Only like, two other races have stretchy bodies.

Quote :

this allows them to actually swallow the male

But...that's literally the ONLY reason you're adding that trait. Why go to such great lengths for that? You cannot gear an entire species' physiology around one thing like that.

Quote :

and since the female cant do too much from pregnacy...hunting is ALOT more difficult...if the female dosent gget the massive amoun of nutrients...she WILL die

Its already been established that it doesn't work that way with egg-laying predators. They have very mild pregnancies and are perfectly able to move around and hunt. Also, that isn't the way pregnancies work. If the mother becomes malnourished, a woman's body will abort the pregnancy to try and save the mother's life. The mantoid mother wouldn't die, she'd just lose that batch of eggs.

Quote :

so the female eats the male whcich gives just enough nutrients for the pregnacy

Pregnancies last for MONTHS, Kiki. I really doubt one meal is going to sustain her for the entire time. Your argument for why she has to eat the male is flawed.

Quote :

of course the female dosent have to eat the male...in fact...the male and female can even discus what they should d (weather the male is willing or and stuff of that sort) or the female can just do i right away if she is mean or somthing

If she's completely immobile by her pregnancy, how would the male ever even get caught? It just encourages the meek, shy, or males with no will to survive to breed. It also negates the chance for ANY Mantoids to ever have a long, trusting and loving relationship.

I've tried to be reasonable and calm, and provide logical examples...but since Karbo has come in and basically said "None of that mattes, do what you want" I doubt you're going to actually listen to me. The fact is, Mantoids are in the wiki, and as the owner of a canon idea, it is your responsibility to make them mesh in with the canon as much as possible. You can't just do whatever you want with a canon idea without expecting the community to chime in.

rcs619 wrote:

I hope that everyone will continue to join me in ignoring this useless, tacked on, and nonsensical racial trait.

Oh yeah that will surely helps a LOT

Ok I see again this damn favoritism thing coming so let me make things clear : there is a couple of ideas ( miratans, jungle bowl, Terra's ideas, Mantoids, Miaxi, Gyspas etc.. ) that are NOT integrated. They still belongs to their authors because they choose to after the asking round of two years ago.
I'm not supposed to go and change them without their permission. That's what ownership means. So in then end, if Kiki wants to retains that "eating the male" trait, well that's her call.

Karbo wrote:

rcs619 wrote:

I hope that everyone will continue to join me in ignoring this useless, tacked on, and nonsensical racial trait.

Oh yeah that will surely helps a LOT

Ok I see again this damn favoritism thing coming so let me make things clear : there is a couple of ideas ( miratans, jungle bowl, Terra's ideas, Mantoids, Miaxi, Gyspas etc.. ) that are NOT integrated. They still belongs to their authors because they choose to after the asking round of two years ago.
I'm not supposed to go and change them without their permission. That's what ownership means. So in then end, if Kiki wants to retains that "eating the male" trait, well that's her call.

How is that fair though?

So, she can go "I want them to be like this" and change the canon, at will, without having to propose the idea to the community, get feedback, and tweak it like the rest of us?

This is a community project. The whole point of that is that we all can't go around at will changing things. The whole POINT of these forums is so that people can debate and discuss potential canon ideas.

Yes, Karbo, but what Cliff is saying is that simply because the ideas belong to their authors, doesn't mean we cannot discuss them. He is frustrated because he's listing rational reasons for his stance, and they are being shot down by much less rational counterpoints that are based solely on whim and fancy.

Well sheesh, this has gotten hostile. Let's try to keep it all in perspective if we can and remain calm please. It's just an idea and it's meant to be something fun and creative.

Anyways, I might as well state my own opinions on this too... so I'll be blunt. I actually found the cannibalism thing to be a rather unique thing to them, with besides joking references such as in the doodle allowed for some new story dynamics to take place that just won't happen elsewhere. For an instance of what I mean, I would refer you to Globfish's story Through the Mist. Even Manny of Blaz's, should he continue anything with him, has some unique possibilities heh. The discussion on real mantisses and the like has already been discussed at length and the point is clear about how it occurs so I'm just not gonna touch- that's done. For Felarya though I don't mind it being around as is, I mean these hybrids already DO act rather 'grimly' in regards to their eating habits- very messy eaters when it comes to dridders and harpies. 'Stereotype' of mantises, maybe, but Felaryans are very alien in mindset and it's hard to pin them down- it likely could be just based on individual preferences to determine what will happen.

As for the nutrition during prengancy...what I gather from it and can understand/guess, is the mantoid female will take on a taxing moment lasting for a short time (not sure of duration, possibly days to weeks or more) before she lays her eggs, but nowhere near as long as mammal pregnancies. Hitomi has laid her eggs already and guards her eggs as they have not hatched- so she laid them sometime but the eggs aren't all ready to hatch and she must watch over them until then. So I'm more going along, for mechanics sake of the need of nutrtion for the pregnancy, that they require this sudden increase during the time the eggs are still in them up until they must be laid and then watched over as they finish maturing. While having this many eggs she is also greatly incapacitated and would also risk her eggs if she hunted herself (if possible at all). Basically I see their reproduction as something a bit odd and in between the egg laying and mammal species (funny how that works with a hybrid heh...didn't realize that till I got this far writing).

The point is that the "eating the male" is quite... nonsensical. It's been said that most hybrids have a very low male-to-female ratio. Why, why, why contribute to that?

se points I think Cliff is right; it may be her creation, but considering it's suposed to involve the rest of the community too, we must try to make the specie "believable" (as much as it is possible).

---

Anyways, from my point of view, I don't think the main problem is based on the male being half the size of the female, or the female eating the male directly, but more on ... their mentalities.
I mean, I think the major problem is that no male would want to mate with a female if they know how they are gonna end; it would maybe work if they were realy insects, but they are half humans too...
Even if we accept all that stuff about females eating the male in the end, I can't find explanation with the male accepting to be eaten. .... unless of course, they don't know until it's too late ... it's a possibility ^^;

This is obviously going nowhere. Kiki is all for conserving one trait of her species, which is sexual cannibalism, while Cliff is trying to make them fit better in the setting, but at the cost of the sexual cannibalism. I will side with Cliff and Zion: just because the author retain total ownership doesn't excuse that some traits don't mesh very well and that they could be ironed out.

Personally, my main issue is the size vast gulf between the size of a female and a male. It just seems a little phoned in, and I'm pretty sure that with such a height difference, mating between the two would be quite difficult to begin with. As for the hard vore, it's something that I don't mind too much. I'm pretty sure that species like the harpies and the sphinxes will kill a large animal, then cut it to smaller pieces to eat. The cannibalism, however, is something I mind more. I could see it being practiced when the female is desperate, as a practice among certain tribes (if some mantoids form tribes), or if some female mantoids are particularly domineering, like it's a character trait. However, that's my personal opinion, but I prefer it if it was a rare practice, and its occurences are mostly situational.

Also, Zion, I think it was also established that the male/female ration isn't as bad; it's just that people make fewer male character. I think it was like 40-60. 40 being the males, 60 being the females.

rcs619 wrote:

How is that fair though?

So, she can go "I want them to be like this" and change the canon, at will, without having to propose the idea to the community, get feedback, and tweak it like the rest of us?

This is a community project. The whole point of that is that we all can't go around at will changing things. The whole POINT of these forums is so that people can debate and discuss potential canon ideas.

Well she is not *changing* the cannon here and apparently mantoids were meant to be like that since the start, with male being smaller than the females. If she would go and suddenly change the race to something totally silly, then yeah I would considering removing them. But she is not making such thing.

You don't seem to understand they represent an exception along with a few others ideas. And yeah I prefer integrated ideas too, on which things can be built safely.

And I personnaly don't see Felarya as a community project, if I get the meaning right... The community is helping to come up with a lot of things and ideas but is not driving it.

Atlas : personally I see more this as a frenzy type of thing. The female got caught in the action and...

Kabob is on the right track with the pregnacy thing... When the pregnacy starts...the egs developed the female is limited in movement untile she can lay the eggs...after a few weeks she lays the eggs and free to move,..so she needs to eat the male to survive the weeks...

The male size problem...I only chose them small because people seem to have a problem with hard vote so I gave them the option to swallow them whole...if no one has a problem with hard vore the the males can be the same sizeno problem...

The canabilsm trait I added because I wanted them to be unique...i love unique unique...and it's unique to them so that's why I want to keep it...and I thought I put it into their bio in a way it works but it has problems even though I don't think it does...but I don't plan on removing the trait...and I think the way I described it works...the issue is no one like the canabalism...even though naga can eat naga and dridder eats dridders...I know it's an issue with the male female thing but still...

Just... ugh. I'm done trying to help. I'm finished here. Not after something like that...

It's mostly that, in the case of the dridder and naga, they hunt smaller members of the same species, to whom they are perfect strangers. In the case of the mantoids, the female eat someone it had an intimate relationship with, so it comes out as more gruesome.

Sean Okotami wrote:

It's mostly that, in the case of the dridder and naga, they hunt smaller members of the same species, to whom they are perfect strangers. In the case of the mantoids, the female eat someone it had an intimate relationship with, so it comes out as more gruesome.

My main issue here is not only the complete unwillingness to compromise and listen to peers in the community.

That, and the fact that this basically ruins male Mantoids, and honestly, Mantoids in general in my opinion. I mean, their entire race, from their physiology to their culture is now centered entirely around vore. They're barely even a species anymore, more of a vehicle for vore than anything. The worst part is, they used to be cool...before..well, THIS happened to them.

My greatest regret is that they are the canon mantis hybrid species. It doesn't seem right for a species to get made canon without a trait, sit for years, and then suddenly a really bad trait just gets added, despite everyone telling the creator that its a bad idea. It isn't fair to the community. Mantoids should be removed from the wik, and either fixed, or replaced by a mantis hybrid species that will make the community happy.

rcs619 wrote:

It isn't fair to the community.

That apparently matters much less than we'd believed, Cliff.

Karbo wrote:

And I personnaly don't see Felarya as a community project, if I get the meaning right... The community is helping to come up with a lot of things and ideas but is not driving it.

Karbo would you please elaborate on what you mean by this. From the way that I am interpreting this, it seems to indicate that you don't think that you aren't giving the community as a whole credit where credit is due. A majority of the fauna, flora, legends, ect. have come from some member of the community as a whole. I hope that this is simply a misunderstanding caused by a language barrier.

Back onto the topic at hand. I would have to have to say that this trait isn't necessary. All the hybrid predators have traits indicative of their animal species, and quite frankly mantises don't normally eat their mates, they don't have stretchy throats like nagas or other predators. They are sapient and capable of realizing that the males of the species are capable of intelligent thought, and quite frankly one does not simply give up their own life so casually as the males in this idea seem to.

What I mean is that the community is helping coming with many great ideas and concept, and that's incredibly helpful and welcome, *but* it is not driving the project and choosing its direction . It has always been so and will always be. Nothing new here.

As for the Mantoids, well we need compromise or this is going nowhere. Kiki wants to keep their traits of the Female eating the males and it has to be respected since she *owns* the race and they have always been designed as such from the start.
She offered to compromise on the female not always eating their males. that seem pretty reasonnable to me.

rcs619 wrote:

Sean Okotami wrote:

It's mostly that, in the case of the dridder and naga, they hunt smaller members of the same species, to whom they are perfect strangers. In the case of the mantoids, the female eat someone it had an intimate relationship with, so it comes out as more gruesome.

My main issue here is not only the complete unwillingness to compromise and listen to peers in the community.

That, and the fact that this basically ruins male Mantoids, and honestly, Mantoids in general in my opinion. I mean, their entire race, from their physiology to their culture is now centered entirely around vore. They're barely even a species anymore, more of a vehicle for vore than anything. The worst part is, they used to be cool...before..well, THIS happened to them.

My greatest regret is that they are the canon mantis hybrid species. It doesn't seem right for a species to get made canon without a trait, sit for years, and then suddenly a really bad trait just gets added, despite everyone telling the creator that its a bad idea. It isn't fair to the community. Mantoids should be removed from the wik, and either fixed, or replaced by a mantis hybrid species that will make the community happy.

I'm sorry...but I believe if I am fof fault then the ones trying to make the change are as fualt as well...

I'm tring to be of reason...I am telling you the thing but your seemingly one track mind wont listen to the reason...

just because they eat the male during breeding MEANS nothing...just one occation in their life...not everything is about vore...they live...they have personalities...the female dosent HAVE to do it...what is the problem here?...

the mantoid race is rare...that IS in the wiki...maybe it's because the males dont want to mate?...or scared to?...I thought of that already...

sothell me what the problem is...please?...because seriously...

and also...the sexual canibilism was add SINCE THE START...I just have no idea why the person who wrote the wiki dint write down the reason...

Oh and here is a thing...I DIND allow changes made on the mantoid already...

My idea for the matoid was they had 4 legs...sinfce pray mantesis uses 2 of their legs as forearms...so the Mantoids forearms are the other 2 legs...pretty much mantises have 6 limbs...but for some reason resent mantoids have 6 of them...pretty much making the mantoid have 8 limbs...2 more than they should...but I allowed it...I mean it makes them look more like a mantis...somewhat....and it went again my desings but hey...there can be more than one breed of matoid right?...

now when it comes to their breeding habits...I thought of of somthing that works that goes agains what you want it to be...and I originally designed it...I TRIED to make comprimises...lowering the chances of the male from being eaten to half instead of it being rare for the male to to be eaten...and I exsplained the reasoning which is perfectly logical...so what's the problem...if I remove it entirely...the mantoids will be like any other race out their...pretty much Dridders with 2 missing legs...

like I said I like unique...and I want to perserve that uniqueness...I'm trying to make comprimieses that work in everyone favor but why wont you let me?...

I dont want to remove it entirely because it's the only thing seperating them from the other races...and they are already somewhat know to do it...

Slimetoad wrote:

I'm just going to say, I don't mind males being slightly smaller, because that actually does happen with real life mantises. But everything else, and sorry if I'm being rude, is just completely stupid. Mantoids were a perfect race as they were before, adding stuff like this is unnecessary and just feels sloppy and tacked

none of this was added