Equipment: how easy is too easy?

Originally, I meant to reroute the weapon discussion thread, but I realized it's taken a direction of its own.

Now, the thing I wanted to discuss was... just how easy is too easy, where equipment is involved, in your opinion? The predators have it relatively easy, at least where it concerns direct physical contact with prey. But where it comes to prey... I remember that we've discussed people might have access to plenty of things. The issues of magic and technology have been touched, but we've been completely unable to reach an agreement on what is alright; my only criteria for this is: how easy does something make things, and is that too easy?

The thing with technology is that Felarya's supposed to have access to a trillion different dimensions, or more. Each has a different technological level. Therefore, it's conceivable to believe that you could get yourself more or less anything that you can think of, since technology doesn't even have to be realistic. Therefore, technological level isn't an issue in Negav. Price shouldn't be an issue either, since you know, we don't know squat about the technology involved, but anything that's for sale means someone needs money, and they need it more than you need the stuff you've never seen before.

The only remaining indicator to technology that should be available then is plot and flavor... or "balance" as noobs call it. So basically, technology should be adjudicated more along the lines of "is this okay for them to have" than along the lines of "Is this cheap? Does it make sense?" since both of those questions can only be answered by "you tell me, it's your story". What would be (so to speak) a game breaker? Would it make things too easy? Was that intentional? Does it add anything to the story? What it DOES add, does it fit with the theme we're looking for, or does it take things in another direction?

The thing with magic is that it's easier to adjudicate: magic is generally regarded as a kind of power, more inborn than anything else; it's unlikely knowledge makes you radioactive (YES, I KNOW, WIZARDS AREN'T RADIOACTIVE. IT'S A FIGURE OF SPEECH. THEY GO BLIP BLIP ON PREDATOR SENSE. CAN KNOWLEDGE MAKE YOU GO BLIP BLIP? PREDS GO BRAAAINS? LOL) so I figure that magic is more of a quality or energy than a skill. As I've stated before, I think magic's supposed to be personal and intransferible, since anything else could be handled by technology, as we're INFINITELY more familiar with it.

But the same questions on how to adjudicate technology apply to magic. Every single one of them.

Well, now. My question is, how resourceful do you prefer characters? What possibilities do you prefer technology to offer? What do you approve and not approve of magic doing? How useful can things get before all the fun value is lost?

All of those questions are asked in general. Moments that require specific circumstances abide by their own rules.

Spoiler:

Honestly, its more about "Would this make sense?" than anything.

You don't need to 'balance' the world if you follow that logic. People COULD bring nukes, and giant particle cannons, and all kinds of crazy stuff...but you have to ask yourself "Does that make sense?" ...and often times, it doesn't.

Any legitimate military expedition would focus on mobility. The jungle is humid and harsh. No one will be dragging around a 50 pound cannon with them. That being said, there are plenty of man-portable weapons that could provide some defense from wildlife and potentially preds. Grenade launchers (flashbangs, irritating gas, etc...since regular grenades just aren't powerful enough), man-portable rocket launchers along the lines of the RPG series or the Stinger, large caliber rifles, and even anti-tank rifles if they can be disassembled and carried between two or three people.

Setting up a static defense is even simpler. Have a couple 50-cal machineguns set up, maybe some anti-vehicle mines (not large enough to kill. You dont want to kill the pred, just deter it) and fire some warning shots at any pred that looks at your outpost funny. They won't run into a death-trap...and you don't want to kill them, since that would leave a 300 ton rotting corpse on your doorstep.

As for what can be bought...there is a limit. Militaries do not generally sell their weaponry to less advanced people. There would be some military hardware that would have been scavanged...but for the most part, the average person just would not have access to that kind of tech. Shotguns, rifles, pistols, those would be common enough (and needed for protection against human raiders/criminals and so on), but the average person will not be able to buy rockets, laser guns and so on in Negav.

With magic, you just need to use common sense. We've seen that Isolon Fist battle-mages can use cooperative tactics to take on a pred, but they are the top of the line. Powerful mages, trained to combat giant enemies. Mages can be strong, but the average mage isnt going to be able to walk up to a pred and one-shot it. More defensive magic is more useful in general anyway. Illusions, distractions, blinding flashes of light...those will help you survive longer than a giant fireball. Mages show up on the pred sense...but only a very small number of preds even have it, and mages ARE able to learn how to control their output and mask their signature.

Basically, it all comes down to thinking about things realistically and using common sense.

Also, I would argue that predators DONT have it easy. They live in the wilderness in an environment full of giant, dangerous creatures, poisonous plants and animals, and other preds. All they really have are their heightened senses, some unique natural abilities depending on species and occaisionally magic. True, when they get full-grown, things get a bit more bearable...but many preds never do. Considering that most start at near-human size, I imagine the non-adult mortality rate for preds is huge. Not even large preds are totally safe. One mistake and they are potentially done.

Whatever technology a character has or whatever magic a character can wield show explicitely show its limits, either it would be range or effectiveness. Let's start with technology. I have a coalition of multiple races from a very advanced dimension with a plethora of technology.

The Humans technology mostly use railgun and heavy vehicles. It's very powerful, but it's bulky and fairly slow compared to the other races.

The Volegans have advanced aerial combat armors and fighters, even including capital ships, which are equipped with potent plasma and ion engines as well as basic laser weaponry. The downside is that outside the air where their speed and maneuverability is at their best, their weaponry tends to favor firepower and sturdiness less.

The Vultamoveans prefer modular technology which can shapeshift into other tools of its kind, such as a welder torch turning into an automatic screw driver, as well as their armor to adapt to their shapeshifting nature. They also have extremely advanced health care technology. However, they rarely make weapons other than basic self-defensive ones.

The Draeths are tougher though. They can refine a lot of different energy into potent weapons and their vehicles tend to be lighter than humans. Their power armor possess a more advanced life-support system and boost their physical attributes even further and even have potent shields. To counter this, they tend to dislike EMP weaponry.

The Aramedians have mastered the sea in its depths with incredible technology repelling the effects of water on crafts and people, as well as on ships. However, their land coverage is very weak and they have no air force.

The Psi'Nerians have the most advanced technology derived from crystals which form on their own world. They can use these crystals to create interdimensional warpgates as well as weaker gateways to move around on the same planet. However, they are mostly pacifist and have AI's uploaded into combat robots as a mean of defending against invasion, which are vulnerable to hacking, reprogramming and possibly EMP.

There hasn't been a perfect blend of all these technologies yet.

***

Now let's talk Magic. I think the first thing a writer should when writing a mage is to first think of a magic system with its own rules and restrictions. I ripped off D&D for mine and I often go to SRD sites to gain a reminder to how you can resist a spell, its range, its drawbacks and its effects. However, there should also be a general rule. For example, Arcane magic is volatile so a lot of care and precision is necessary to achieve the desired effects without blowing yourself to bits. Clerical magic might be less flashy and dangerous, but those who adhere to it are usually subject to restrictions depending on the source of its powers. The one thing I noticed is that people believe in the fallacy that magic is the power of God, and they are right as, from a realistic point of view of, magic is limited only to your imagination. So they believe that a character who can decimate an entire city just by twitching its fingers then sneezing is cool, and they are dead wrong. What makes magic interesting his how its system works and how a character works within this system to accomplish incredible feats. Limitless power is bland since you just need to think of something and it will happen, it's by giving it rules and regulations that gives it flavor and substance. The one last thing about your magic system is to be consistent. There is nothing more irritating than a character breaking the rules and cheating the system just to show how powerful he is. To quote Xykon from Order of the Stick:

Quote :

Power isn't something you put on and off like a jacket, it's just something you are. If it can easily be turned off or trumped, then you really weren't powerful in the first place. You know what power equals? Power. Power equals power.

What our bony fiend means is that you won't show that a character is powerful by breaking the rules. If they are consistent within the rules and can use a simple spell in a very creative way to catch someone off-guard, or simply has higher offensive spellcasting power than the norm but not to Godlike level, then it's acceptable and you want to know how did he get so strong.



As far as easily procured, I assume the more potent and advantageous the weapon or technology you can get in Negav, the more bucks it will take from your pockets. But really, if you are a decent writer, you will think of restrictions and will show ways character face and work with these drawbacks.

Also what Cliff said, it needs to make sense in both the setting and from the standpoint of your story.

Yeah, I'm gonna agree with Cliff and Sean on this one. If it's practical in a giant jungle, then chances are it can work.

Oh yeah, adding to Cliff that Predators don't necessarily have it easier, some creatures in Felarya are utterly harmless to creatures the size of Humans, but are a threat to Predators the size of Crisis. Bigger doesn't mean safer. You do get perks over some creatures, but you also have to worry about even bigger fishes at the same time.

Stabs wrote:

Now, the thing I wanted to discuss was... just how easy is too easy, where equipment is involved, in your opinion?

No settlement equipment like a G.E.C.K., no weapons like a FORCE:Ground rifle, no armor like a Halo Anime Prototype Suit, and so on. If you can drive off a Giant Predator, or even small groups, I don't mind. I do mind when you're just steamrolling everything with weapons that should not (and would not) be used with a single-planet society. Similarly, clearing out a Jungle to make a city, and having the city grow, should take some time (unless built around one heckuva base): It shouldn't be a "Two years after the colonists settled, a city of ten thousand was stationed within the Jungles..."

Similarly, things that are considered extremely high threats should remain, well, a threat. A horde of ten thousand blood apes? Yeah, those shouldn't be something a typical adventuring party has any chance of defeating without at best extensive prep-time and exhausting much of their resources / capabilities. If you can fight such off without suffering notable casualties? You're going too far.

Of course, the level of equipment necessary is also dependent on how you're defining the people. For example: Say everyone has physical capabilities akin to Guts from Berserk or Thorkell from Vinland Saga. There the necessary weapons for a group of, say, a hundred people, to become a major threat / steamroll stuff is a lot lower than what would be necessary for a bunch of baseline people. Heck, said group would probably be more than capable of taking on small Giant Predator warbands with medieval weapons. Needless to say, unless you're trying to present them as some sort of external threat or they're necessary to plot, such things should be avoided.

Stabs wrote:

The thing with technology is that Felarya's supposed to have access to a trillion different dimensions, or more. Each has a different technological level. Therefore, it's conceivable to believe that you could get yourself more or less anything that you can think of, since technology doesn't even have to be realistic. Therefore, technological level isn't an issue in Negav. Price shouldn't be an issue either, since you know, we don't know squat about the technology involved, but anything that's for sale means someone needs money, and they need it more than you need the stuff you've never seen before.

Price I'd imagine would be less an issue than availability. There's always bound to be someone who could both afford and use, say, the XZ3200 Prototype Rifle that turns Kensha Beasts thirteen separate kinds of dead. However, the availability of said rifle is something else entirely.

Similarly, it is a bit distressing that pretty much every tech level displayed is "dark age". Even just more renaissance-level equipment would be appreciated, or even going back to bronze-age. Of course, Dark Ages is the main point most people focus, so it makes sense that it'd be the most often used (kinda hard to mess up Full Plate, Shield, Sword, and so on).

Stabs wrote:

Well, now. My question is, how resourceful do you prefer characters? What possibilities do you prefer technology to offer? What do you approve and not approve of magic doing? How useful can things get before all the fun value is lost?

I like my characters willing to improvise and learn. Said warrior may not understand a Browning Automatic, but they'd be more than willing to take it up as a support weapon should they think they're going to be fighting a lot of flying enemies (where their axe is minimally helpful) or that would normally be extremely dangerous to come into short range of (either due to their own ranged capabilities or being close-combat beasts). Weapons should constantly be recycled / swapped out (insofar as they're familiar with them) and, if they know about the local terrain / setting, tailored to what they expect. No seasoned adventurers going into Evernight without any sort of lightening or dark-vision gear because "durr we don't normally use it".

rcs619 wrote:

Any legitimate military expedition would focus on mobility.

Depends on the era, I say. Some could get by with brute-force. But then again, we differ on some points. For example:

rcs619 wrote:

Grenade launchers (flashbangs, irritating gas, etc...since regular grenades just aren't powerful enough),

I think that a Grenade from a typical grenade launcher would be more than sufficient. 10m casualty radius, and all that, would IMO make things more than possible to drive off a Giant Predator with two or four (or kill if applied liberally enough).

Furthermore, Brute Force still has the problem that there's a fine line between "Expanding violently" and "drawing the ire from native Guardians for going on a warpath".

rcs619 wrote:

Shotguns, rifles, pistols, those would be common enough (and needed for protection against human raiders/criminals and so on), but the average person will not be able to buy rockets, laser guns and so on in Negav.

I could see rockets, but probably of the single-shot variety. Such weapons would also be more of a "know where to look / I have my sources" type deal than "Special offer! Buy two grenades get the next two free!"

rcs619 wrote:

Mages can be strong, but the average mage isnt going to be able to walk up to a pred and one-shot it.

Agreed. Akin to the weapon limits, you shouldn't have groups plow through native fauna in such a manner. A single mage could, potentially, deter a Giant Predator (for instance centering a pair of "Light" spells right overtop their eyes in the dead of night), but a single mage shouldn't be capable of going "Disintegrate Spam" and turning a large Dridder into a rapidly deconstructed mockery of itself.

rcs619 wrote:

They live in the wilderness in an environment full of giant, dangerous creatures, poisonous plants and animals, and other preds. All they really have are their heightened senses, some unique natural abilities depending on species and occaisionally magic. True, when they get full-grown, things get a bit more bearable...but many preds never do. Considering that most start at near-human size, I imagine the non-adult mortality rate for preds is huge. Not even large preds are totally safe. One mistake and they are potentially done.

I'll support the "when they're children they're vulnerable" bit. However, when full sized, the number of threats drops dramatically. While the Wiki tries to be more favorable in putting threats for big and small, when you include the forum non-canon suggestions and the overall wiki things are absurdly lopsided towards eating Human-sized Prey. There's still binges on the forum where most of the ideas are things like "120-160ft Dragon, extremely powerful, only eats man-sized prey". While Giant Predators aren't in the clear, pretty much 90% of their common predators are themselves fully grown Giant Predators.

rcs619 wrote:

Any legitimate military expedition would focus on mobility. The jungle is humid and harsh. No one will be dragging around a 50 pound cannon with them. That being said, there are plenty of man-portable weapons that could provide some defense from wildlife and potentially preds. Grenade launchers (flashbangs, irritating gas, etc...since regular grenades just aren't powerful enough), man-portable rocket launchers along the lines of the RPG series or the Stinger, large caliber rifles, and even anti-tank rifles if they can be disassembled and carried between two or three people.

Or, we could say implant tech got somewhere, like Major Kusanagi. You know the gal? She's kinda ghostly, she reminds me of Mary Shelley. It'd be possible for her to carry enough dakka to prove anyone wrong while still having enough plausible deniability to claim she's both focusing on mobility and using only realistic technology. There's also super-duper steroids; Hulk carry big guns... and ultralight, high-resistance alloys called Impregnaron or something like that, which would allow the writer to make a 50-pound cannon weigh so little you could carry 99 of them and 99 shells. In your pockets. Realistic technology isn't the only option, so it's not impossible to focus on mobility while carrying any amount of firepower. For some people, realistic technology is not an option at all, because they don't really know that much about guns. Lucky them.

If you could somehow shove even ONE of a destroyer's artillery batteries into a bag of holding, for example, then you could in theory focus on mobility and still carry enough power to sink an Anko-Class Battleship. I'll be the first to admit it'd work only once, because it'd stop being funny afterwards, but you DO see the point, right? It's not unconceivable that somehow, man-portable weaponry could drop a predator. Even limited shrinking magic could do the trick. If you can shrink a 25-pound rifle to half its dimensions, even if it leaves the mass unaltered, it's easier to carry it, momentum and all. Oh, right. You're of the opinion size-changing magic is for fairies only. You don't think magic to transform metal into plywood, bone, or that funny rock that floats is for fairies only too, do you? How about magic to transmute metal into another metal? Like [Fe] (CN) 0.13% m/m into Al... oh, right. That'd be like THE philosopher's stone. Let's say... how about... okay, magic was a bad way to state my point.

We avoid magic- who's to say there just can't be a metal to make guns that's as light as aluminium and as tenacious as cyanided steel? Thinking realistically, that's just a challenge for the R&D guys! It's only in a balance viewpoint that we begin having a problem with it. For a closer to earth alternative... let's robotize the rifle! You could have a robot that transforms into a rifle! It may not be man-portable, but as long as it's self-portable there should be no problem, you'd only have to lift its weight during fights and it'd carry itself the rest of the time. All it needs is the ability to follow you at 40 mph under its own power.

rcs619 wrote:

Setting up a static defense is even simpler. Have a couple 50-cal machineguns set up, maybe some anti-vehicle mines (not large enough to kill. You dont want to kill the pred, just deter it) and fire some warning shots at any pred that looks at your outpost funny. They won't run into a death-trap...and you don't want to kill them, since that would leave a 300 ton rotting corpse on your doorstep.

Am I the only one who recalls Tome I?

Spoiler:

How about Tome II?

Spoiler:

Was that the work of Notys too? Did Gunther monopolized the weaponry market when I wasn't looking? They don't have to know it works, I know... until the predator gets really stupid and finds out the hard way that your guns won't really harm it.

rcs619 wrote:

As for what can be bought...there is a limit. Militaries do not generally sell their weaponry to less advanced people. There would be some military hardware that would have been scavanged...but for the most part, the average person just would not have access to that kind of tech. Shotguns, rifles, pistols, those would be common enough (and needed for protection against human raiders/criminals and so on), but the average person will not be able to buy rockets, laser guns and so on in Negav.

Militaries don't. Arms dealers, common in lawless and violent areas, would: you just need to look for a way to make it profitable, and you're assured to have a dozen idiots trying it out. Just like Malahite said, though, you'd need some contacts to do that... I don't think you'd be able to find anything bigger than a grenade in Negav. Bringing destructive devices into a walled city, full of Negavian thieves, isn't the smartest idea I've heard all day; you'd be best served hiding them in a bunker in the wild.

rcs619 wrote:

With magic, you just need to use common sense. We've seen that Isolon Fist battle-mages can use cooperative tactics to take on a pred, but they are the top of the line. Powerful mages, trained to combat giant enemies. Mages can be strong, but the average mage isnt going to be able to walk up to a pred and one-shot it. More defensive magic is more useful in general anyway. Illusions, distractions, blinding flashes of light...those will help you survive longer than a giant fireball. Mages show up on the pred sense...but only a very small number of preds even have it, and mages ARE able to learn how to control their output and mask their signature.

It seems I should get tome 3 ASAP, I wasn't aware it was allowed for mages to mask their signature... I always thought that mages were supposed to blip blip on predator sense, and somehow preventing this would deprive them of an advantage they were MEANT to hold. Then again, one-upping (not necessarily one-shotting) a predator doesn't seem that impossible for me, as long as it happens only once and not by sheer overpoweringness.
One-shotting it, I'd attribute that to a combination of über-powerful mage, über-powerful artifact, ascarlin on top, striking the weakness for massive damage, using every special ability, and even then, it should only happen once or always offscreen, otherwise it wouldn't really agree with me.

LAST MINUTE NOTE: Near the moment I posted this, I read that Karbo himself said predator sense was actually a case of power creep/power seep, that he just added it for Crisis and then every predator had it, and it always trumped everything, but he didn't mean it to do so. Frankly, I preferred it the wrong way... it gave me more to work against, you know, that about putting walls in your path and forcing you to learn how to climb mountains- but I'll concede this point. Mages can mask their signature. You'll concede that not all mages will always learn how to do that, whether they want to or not, will you? After all, magic is... well... magic.

rcs619 wrote:

Also, I would argue that predators DONT have it easy. They live in the wilderness in an environment full of giant, dangerous creatures, poisonous plants and animals, and other preds. All they really have are their heightened senses, some unique natural abilities depending on species and occaisionally magic. True, when they get full-grown, things get a bit more bearable...but many preds never do. Considering that most start at near-human size, I imagine the non-adult mortality rate for preds is huge. Not even large preds are totally safe. One mistake and they are potentially done.

Well, the non-adult mortality rate for EVERYTHING is huge, Cliff: most of the cutest miracles of life, even in the real world, will only serve as meat... but even then, all that they have works, or at least is both supposed to and proven to. Some species, like sphinxes, can even bring up any complaints to their parents and get hot tips from them. Compared to some dude who just popped in armed with a wrist watch, a cellphone, clean socks, their wallet, and maybe a bag of groceries if they're lucky, it's obvious that only one has any serious chance of survival. Maybe it's not exactly easy- but you missed my point, by far.

Stabs wrote:

The predators have it relatively easy, at least where it concerns direct physical contact with prey.

I'm not going to concern myself with the growing pains of some giant man-eating wench in this thread or anywhere else. Maybe only a small number of preds get to that size, but I have to say it's more than enough. Whether great predators lay clutches of 10, 100, or 1000 eggs doesn't really matter as far as everyone else's survival chance is concerned. Who cares if 9, 99, 999, or OVER NINE THOUSAND giant nagas get eaten before finding love, for each naga that reaches maturity?

What I meant to note was that they're nigh-unkillable to their prey. Some naga took a grenade to the back, barely drawing any blood in the primary canon, and there's a species in the wiki, one of the first things you'll see in it if I'm not mistaken, that's described as "a rocket launcher won't even scratch its shell". Now, I may be a little rusty about this... but weren't rocket launchers the thing that made ur tank go asplode? Now guess who's directly responsible for both accounts... here's a clue- It wasn't me, I didn't do it! Honest!

Sean Okotami wrote:

Oh yeah, adding to Cliff that Predators don't necessarily have it easier, some creatures in Felarya are utterly harmless to creatures the size of Humans, but are a threat to Predators the size of Crisis. Bigger doesn't mean safer. You do get perks over some creatures, but you also have to worry about even bigger fishes at the same time.

Sean, what did that have to do with the topic?
But merely for the sake of argument, what do hydra trees, planar moles and flying squids eat while growing up? Vegetables? Come to think of it, what are hydra trees like when they're growing up?



Now, let me remind you all just how dangerous Felarya is supposed to be. Spoilered for realistic maths... every time you drag realistic science into an anime discussion, God kills a catgirl. Guess how does this happen in Felarya? I'm practically spoon-feeding that Crisis chick here.

Spoiler:

That's what vexes me so hard; I know relying too much on equipment isn't supposed to work, but at the same time, I want to make sure that when everyone knows what they're doing, and they have what they need to do it, they still can't climb beyond 32% survival rate, the last 5% should be legendary territory. Thus, I prefer predators to be near indestructible so that they could be to blame for the fact people don't survive in the jungle more than they strictly have to. Maybe I'm making it more deadly than it's supposed to be, but I'm not sure how else was I to go about this! I'm going to burst a pipe here, my neurons are giving me error messages! He sang this haunting song EG LI OC My KD My KD All I have is this fish ah but they are one and the same the old man wins 267 points astral trio beats death to seize that which cannot be gotten you must invoke the points of a compass and convince it to come to you*

My best guess is that the difference, the reason why a 10-year old catgirl can survive there when a couple dozen mercs can't has to be in the habitat. One of them has more than one habitat to concern themselves with, they move in large groups and are easily tracked, and they also have long-term goals that might interfere with short-term survival even when properly prioritized. Yet that group also has whatever equipment we can think of. Therefore, it seems only familiarity with the terrain can do the trick, as number should in theory not matter, since most neko villages work just fine until Crisis comes up... that, and luck. Maybe kitteh... is lucky? Stabs's mah logik kitteh... can haz mirgaine.


In hindsight, it's possible that the reason why most neko communities survive is plain economy. If they can work out some safe spots somewhere (caves, or lairs), all they need to do is be efficient with their bodily needs (this is, drink water at dawn and dusk like any prey species, then spend their day looking for protein to vore), that'll do for them with a minimum of risk every day. Short of fairies (or Crisis), it's pretty unlikely they're attacked.

As for humans... well, our greatest weapon against nature, guys, let's admit it, it's pollution. Not necessarily poison, but visual and sound pollution; as we build and till, I guess most predators would see cities and outskirts mainly in their nightmares, to them, any city would be Carcossa or R'lyeh.

Maybe I'm overthinking the whole business... I just don't want to make the same mistake I made when I first discovered this place... I thought you guys weren't really all that serious, I mean, I thought the dimensional rifts were just meant as an excuse to put all the fun people together, like in Karbo's fanarts... hell, I thought this place was just for silly giggles, then Falconjudge told me Cyndaquil was copyrighted. Man, I was a BEETROOT.

*Does anyone get the reference? I feel it's fitting...

As far as the grenade goes, it should be noted that standard anti-personel grenades would be terrible against predators. They lack any kind of penetrating power. You're looking at a minor burn, at best, unless you get it somewhere sensitive like the eyes or ears. The shrapnel is too small to do anything significant. Now, a 20mm grenade from a dedicated grenade launcher or an under-slung grenade launcher...those likely would be a bit more painful. Grenades for the most part, are meant to deal area of effect damage to light targets through pressure waves and shrapnel. Preds require high penetration. Surface explosives aren't viable unless you're chucking the big stuff at them, several pounds of C4, for example, or a satchel charge...which could potentially do some serious damage.

Rocket launchers can vary in power, from something like the RPG-7, to the Javelin anti-tank rocket. I believe the creature you're referring to is some kind of giant turtle. Rockets would work nicely on most predators though, especially if you can get anti-aircraft or anti-armor rockets. The right aim may yield a one-shot, and even if its off, they are going to be getting the hell away from you.

Killing a predator is all about the proper application of weapons and tactics. Anti-personel weapons designed to kill HUMANS aren't going to kill a pred. A hand grenade isnt going to kill a whale, and not a creature three times the size of one. You don't want a shrapnel or pressure based weapon. You want penetration and/or high-explosives. Anti-armor rifles (preferrably 50-cal), rocket launchers, satchel charges, anti-vehicle mines, and so on.

To be fair, using the Felarya express as an example isn't that good. Its fairly impractical, kinda stupid, and designed to write stories about people getting eaten. Its suicidally unsafe, and kind of unneeded with portal mages and the massive dimensional portal outside of Negav...not to mention the massive portal and gate network that exists between many of the more advanced worlds. The Felarya express is a plot device to get people eaten, that's about it.

Predators aren't indestructable, and they aren't easy. They're giant animals, and besting them is ALL about tactics. The best tactic is to NOT get their attention in the first place. If you know what you're doing, this is perfectly possible to do. Stealth, intel, experience, and so on are your greatest tools. If a fight is unavoidable, then you need heavy weapons. Maximum penetration, anti-vehicle explosives, and so on.

There's a reason preds rely so much on stealth. They CAN be hurt, and they can be bested with the right tactics. Felarya doesn't need to be totally a happypeppyfunland where everyone survives, but turning into a grimdark place where everyone dies all the time, and preds are neigh invincible isn't right either.

rcs619 wrote:

You're looking at a minor burn, at best, unless you get it somewhere sensitive like the eyes or ears. The shrapnel is too small to do anything significant.

Not quite. A key thing to keep in mind is that scale =/= perfect comparison. While something might very well be twelve times the height and many hundred / thousand times the volume, that does not mean that they will treat a "small" thing for a human as "miniscule / gnat-like". Well, besides (possibly) Fairies: They're canonically confirmed to break a few laws of physics, so they might very well break some of the laws of conservation of energy and the like.

rcs619 wrote:

Preds require high penetration.

I wouldn't quite say that. If aiming for vitals beneath the flesh, yes, but if you're aiming to drive something off you need nowhere near vital threatening capability (even doing something just akin to lobbing soup-spoons of boiling water at naked people is often more than enough to keep them back).

rcs619 wrote:

Killing a predator is all about the proper application of weapons and tactics. Anti-personel weapons designed to kill HUMANS aren't going to kill a pred.

Arguably. While in many cases this might be true, I don't think a white phosphorous grenade would be tolerated particularly well by a Giant Predator.

rcs619 wrote:

A hand grenade isnt going to kill a whale,

You want to bank on that? They don't have ten meter casualty radius' for show.

rcs619 wrote:

You want penetration and/or high-explosives. Anti-armor rifles (preferrably 50-cal), rocket launchers, satchel charges, anti-vehicle mines, and so on.

Standard .50 cals should prove more than sufficient for standard penetration. They'll be stopped by bone (since by that point they'll have used a lot of their penetrative energy already), but they'll also be more than sufficient for reaching internal organs or causing nasty injuries that quickly gather up (two BMG's could, provided they had the ammunition, take a few moments at best to set a solitary Giant Predator on rout... if you apply proper physics and anatomy, mind).

I think a problem with Felarya is people tend to go overboard in one way or the other. In some, a Macross Missile-Spam is an "Ow, quit it!" for a Giant Predator. In another, a stick of dynamite lobbed down a Predator's throat is a mortal wound (which might be more applicable, if Felarya didn't require mortal wounds to be of the "immediately mortal" variety, and not the "soon to be mortal" type).

Again, I think we should try to find a balance when it comes to this kind of discussion, and it should more or less be in the hands of the writers to not go overboard.

Usually I've had massive qualms when it came to a wizard who can step into the Fairy Kingdom and kill fairies left and right, while a military company won't even make it out of Negav's viewing distance before one random predator kills them all with barely a scratch on her.

Clearly there needs to be some standards as to what can and can't be accomplished storywise, or continuity will be taking a big back seat to personal preference.

First, rcs619, what won't even scratch you needs orders of magnitude more power to hurt you. I doubt one rocket launcher can have 100 or 1000 times the power of another rocket launcher. So if one rocket launcher won't even scratch its shell, even being the weakest, I don't think the strongest will trouble it much either.

Second, you think a grenade won't hurt a predator? A grenade won't kill a whale? rcs619, when I say seagulls kill whales, I'm not kidding. Seagulls BL**PING hurt whales. That's a fact!

Third...

rcs619 wrote:

Killing a predator is all about the proper application of weapons and tactics. Anti-personel weapons designed to kill HUMANS aren't going to kill a pred.

OBJECTION!

An antipersonnel grenade won't hurt a predator? Well, then I claim it couldn't have been an antipersonnel grenade! And I have proof!

Spoiler:

As I recall, you spoke about the Isolon Fist earlier... and said they were powerful mages, trained to combat great predators. Am I right, Mr. Edgeworth? Then...
They couldn't possibly have made such a novice mistake!

rcs619 wrote:

To be fair, using the Felarya express as an example isn't that good.

I used the Felarya Express? I didn't! I only named Pal Sebrit. I never named the Felarya Express. He had a 37% average survival rate BEFORE being hired for the Felarya Express, not the other way around. And frankly, there's nothing else in his profile. I don't think he was there for any other reason whatsoever.
Of course the 37% survival rate guaranteed is pretty dumb, I mean, a 37% sustainable average means that you've got more 0% than 100%, and that means you're more likely to refund than to make any money.

rcs619 wrote:

Predators aren't indestructable, and they aren't easy.

Good. Calibration follows... just how indestructible and how easy are we to make them?

rcs619 wrote:

I think a problem with Felarya is people tend to go overboard in one way or the other. In some, a Macross Missile-Spam is an "Ow, quit it!" for a Giant Predator. In another, a stick of dynamite lobbed down a Predator's throat is a mortal wound (which might be more applicable, if Felarya didn't require mortal wounds to be of the "immediately mortal" variety, and not the "soon to be mortal" type).

Well, I'll admit to that... we're going to need to agree on how tough they are supposed to be, then. At least, to normalize the issue...

Well, I don't know a whole lot about weapons, but my father's a doctor who was in a few battles and I have some pretty good ideas (just ideas mind you, i'm no expert) of how much damage certain things would do.

As is stated in pretty much every story of Felarya ever, standard civilian-level firearms simply won't cut it. Pistols and small to medium caliber rifles are made for killing humans or human-sized animals, not giant predators the size of buildings. Using such a thing will probably range from a tickle (.22 rifle or .32 pistol with standard rounds) to a stinging sensation akin to airsoft gun beads (high calibre rifles and very heavy pistols).

Machine guns of a high calibre (military grade) would probably be best as a deterrant. For a predator the size of Crisis, this would be like being peppered with an airsoft gun; doesn't do much more than sting but still enough for you to give up if it's not worth it. (ie, four or five soldiers with USA M-40's). Penetration is key. A shotgun, unless firing slugs, would most likely be nothing more than an annoyance because of it's wide spread and small, round shot. As seen in French's Felarya express story, a shotgun is made for damaging things close to human size (fairies get smeared in said story), and were not designed for sixty foot man-eating snake-people (see Katrika and her reaction in the same story).

If you;re going for a kill (why you would I don't know, I'd rather run like hell), a grenade is going to be harmful but probably not lethal unless you get them in the eyes or toss it in thier nose or ear or somewhere else vunerable. Most of an explosive's value is lost on a creature that big, because most of the stuff that is doing the killing is shrapnel.

Shrapnel is made to fly out in all directions and cause damage to a group of people in minimal armour. For something with that much mass, shrapnel would be like having hot grease sprinkled on them. The explosion itself would do more damage. A frag grenade is an explosive, and explosions are made of FIRE. A predator is going to get pretty singed if it hits them. All in all, a grenade is going to hurt and probably leave a burn and maybe even a small scar. For them, a grenade is like a firecracker; hurts and you'll definitely either lay off whoever it chucking them at you or beat the crap out of them, depending on how you roll. But most likely you'll run, because who is going to face down a midget who throws firecrackers?

As rcs619 stated, a rocket or piercing explosive (like an anti-armour explosive round from a tank rifle) would be much more effective because they're made specifically for taking down large, well-armoured targets and not infantry. A pred's size and the thickness of their skin and mass don't count for nearly as much in that kind of scenario. It penetrates before blowing up, and in a compressed area like that it's going to cause way more damage. (Same physics as where you put a firecracker against the side of a plastic bottle and the explosion just moves it, but put the firecracker inside the bottle and it'll blow it in half)

As for missiles, etcetera. . . If it can destroy a building you can bet it'll destroy a building-sized person.

Flamethrowers and napalm, ect. would he very effective. There's a reason every living thing is scared of fire in large amounts. White phosphorous grenades and other fire/burning chemicals-based high explosives, as mentioned, would be more than a little painful.

In other words, your two best friends are fire and penetration.

If it's worth anything, I agree with Mr Nobody, that fire and penetration are your best options. So one weapon I would suggest (but not recommend) is a kinetic energy penetrator. KEP's are basically giant bullets fired by tanks designed to penetrate the armour of other tanks and do nasty things to the crew, so I would hope this would wound the predator (but I wouldn't want to have to test it to find out). The drawbacks would be they require so much force to actually penetrate tank armour they can only be fired by another tank, and on Felarya, tank's are generally referred to as "canned food". It would be almost impossible to swing the tank's gun around to shoot the pred before it grabbed you or just stomped the tank, and even then you'd need a specially built tank to raise the gun high enough to actually hit anything higher than there knee. To say nothing of how difficult it would be to hit the pred, and you'd only have one shot.

Why am I saying this? Because in Felarya, picking fights with preds is thought of as stupid for a good reason. Only the best equipped, most skilled forces, like the Isolon Fist, stand a chance, and if you read the manga you'd know they didn't do too well (I'm sorry, I don't know how to create spoiler sections). Seriously, if you wan tto survive on Felarya, you either avoid preds all together or move to safe harbour.

Oh yeah, I agree that more child preds would be eaten than adult preds, but maybe not THAT many - remember, if there's a baby naga in front of you, the parents probably aren't far away. It would make sense that on a place as dangerous as Felarya, a parent would keep their child close to them to protect them, and there is no creature more dangerous than a momma bear who thinks her cubs are in trouble.

MrNobody13 wrote:

Well, I don't know a whole lot about weapons, but my father's a doctor who was in a few battles and I have some pretty good ideas (just ideas mind you, i'm no expert) of how much damage certain things would do.

As is stated in pretty much every story of Felarya ever, standard civilian-level firearms simply won't cut it. Pistols and small to medium caliber rifles are made for killing humans or human-sized animals, not giant predators the size of buildings. Using such a thing will probably range from a tickle (.22 rifle or .32 pistol with standard rounds) to a stinging sensation akin to airsoft gun beads (high calibre rifles and very heavy pistols).

Actually, high calibe rifles are going to hurt. It's not so much going to sting as the sensation of having a pin stuck in your finger and then twisted. With the lower calibre guns it's just going to feel like a smaller pin that's not in as far.

MrNobody13 wrote:

Machine guns of a high calibre (military grade) would probably be best as a deterrant. For a predator the size of Crisis, this would be like being peppered with an airsoft gun; doesn't do much more than sting but still enough for you to give up if it's not worth it. (ie, four or five soldiers with USA M-40's). Penetration is key. A shotgun, unless firing slugs, would most likely be nothing more than an annoyance because of it's wide spread and small, round shot. As seen in French's Felarya express story, a shotgun is made for damaging things close to human size (fairies get smeared in said story), and were not designed for sixty foot man-eating snake-people (see Katrika and her reaction in the same story).

You're underestimating the power of a .50 cal machine-gun here. They have enormous penetration. When fired at a human, they don't do that much damage simply because they go stright through, leaving neat holes. It's only when the strike the spine of skull that they do real damage. However, when a .50 cal is fired at something thicker than a human, they penetrate deep and then the bullet starts to tumble, causing huge damage. A 50.cal machine-gun is more than a deterrent It's like someone sticking a small nail in you and twisting. You could kill a predator with one if you had enough ammo. But they'd probably have run away long before you could.
Explosive rounds would also do major damage much faster than good old full metal jacket.

The power of guns is often underestimated.

EdgedWeapon wrote:

stuff

I think that if you wanted to fight a predator the best way to do it is on your own terms. Going out to find them is silly. there are far too many dangers apart from the predators around to pick off your men.

Some stuff from the manga:

Yeah, the 50-cal is extremely dangerous, and potentially lethal to a pred.

Really, survival is all about tactics and common sense.

If you're going to be actively going out into the jungle, stealth is your best bet. You CAN carry around weapons that can kill a pred, but 50-cal rifles, rockets, grenade launchers and so on tend to be cumbersome, heavy, and have a low amount of ammo. Its counterproductive when you have to hike miles through a giant jungle. You want to be quick and silent.

Now, it is quite possible to make a fortified defensive outpost if you have the time and equipment. You need to pick a good location, ideally a place that funnels giants into a handful of entrances. Get a 50-cal machinegun or two pointed at each entrance, and maybe hide some anti-vehicle mines or IED's along the path. The pred will get injured, realize it isn't worth the effort and go away. Maybe even have a grenade launcher loaded up with 20mm flashbang grenades. Aim for the face and they will help deter the pred nicely.

If they keep coming, you light them up full on with the 50-cals, aiming for the neck and face, and maybe bring out a couple guys with rockets. Problem solved.

Ideally, you do NOT want to kill them though. Then you have a 100+ ton rotting corpse on your doorstep. You only want to deter and/or injure. You may even earn some respect in the process. Humans have an advantage on defense with their fortifications and large-caliber weapons. Preds have the advantage when on the move in the open jungle.

The defensive outpost situation assumes you have a stable portal back to the homeworld though, like the Delurans and Miritans.

rcs619 wrote:

The defensive outpost situation assumes you have a stable portal back to the homeworld though, like the Delurans and Miritans.

Or regular supply drops.
Even some nice piece of recycler tech would do wonders, as long as you don't mind eating the same kind of thing every day.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

rcs619 wrote:

The defensive outpost situation assumes you have a stable portal back to the homeworld though, like the Delurans and Miritans.

Or regular supply drops.
Even some nice piece of recycler tech would do wonders, as long as you don't mind eating the same kind of thing every day.

Why would you need to eat the same sorts of things? Hydroponics labs are not science fiction, they are science fact - and so widespread that my highschool had one. Mind you, my high school also had a no tractor parking sign. As an unrelated side note several people got busted growing marijuana in said hydroponics labs (I still wonder to this day how they thought that one would slip past). However, food is not a problem - most things will grow without soil just fine, and hydroponics labs require a great deal less room. Of course, they do require a great deal more attention, setup, and tech than just growing your crop out in the wild, but Felarya presents many reasons to accept the additional workload of a lab vice nature.

To clear up a bit on how much damage a single round from a gun can do

Image spoiler'd to save space:

As you can see, the AK-47 7.62 x 39 round can penetrate over 26 inches. The permanent cavity is also quite large where the bullet tumbles. Another thing is the temporary cavity but it's hard to see in this image.
The temporary cavity is the stretching and displacement caused by the bullet as it travels through flesh. Any tissue in that region is not actually pierced (that's the permanent cavity), but it's severely damaged by stretching and hydrostatic shock. In general, the temporary cavity tends to do more damage tissue that is less used to stretching and is not uniform. (Like the liver). Lungs however, are very used to stretching, so the temporary cavity isn't quite as damaging.

aethernavale wrote:

hydroponics

This is true, however as you said that would require a bit of setup.
The things that I mentioned would be necessary while the hydroponics were set up.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

aethernavale wrote:

hydroponics

This is true, however as you said that would require a bit of setup.
The things that I mentioned would be necessary while the hydroponics were set up.

No, not really. Anyone serious about an independent outpost in Felarya would do a lot of prefab work and deliver it wholesale. If you intend for it to last long enough to need self sufficiency, you're not going to build it halfassed and from the ground up. You'll build the parts elsewhere and assemble it in a quick fashion before you're overrun by the Felaryan flora or fauna, or suffer the consequences (most of the Delurans present still believe they'll be leaving Felarya, so its a temporary locale to them and the poor location of the base has made them suffer; the Miritans are more permanent and 'safe'). Setup does not refer to time, but merely to the required prerequisite materials. You don't require routine supplies for that, just the initial construction set.

.50 cal might work, but showing pics of what bullets do to a human doesn't count, because for something as huge as a giant to stand up, they'd need thicker bones, denser muscles - and that's without even mentioning how thick their skin would be. So something that would do nasty things to a human could have little to no effect on a pred.

EdgedWeapon wrote:

.50 cal might work, but showing pics of what bullets do to a human doesn't count, because for something as huge as a giant to stand up, they'd need thicker bones, denser muscles - and that's without even mentioning how thick their skin would be. So something that would do nasty things to a human could have little to no effect on a pred.

The 50-cal is an armor-piercing round designed to kill vehicles and light-medium armor. 50-cal machineguns were used in WWII as anti-aircraft guns on fighter planes.

Scaled up skin would be tougher, sure, but not a tough as armor plating. It would not be a one-hit kill, but it would be damn painful and has the potential for serious injury if aimed in the right places.

That's also not taking into account the potential for different/more powerful bullet propellants. Different worlds would use different things, and their armor-piercing rounds could be better or worse than ours.

Also, an AK-47 firing armor-piercing ammo can tear a car to pieces. While I doubt the effectiveness of the 5.56 NATO, the 7.62mm round fired by the AK-47 and several light machineguns WOULD at least be painful. It may not do any significant damage, but it would certainly get the point across that they may want to leave. Scaled up skin and muscles would be tough, sure, but not as tough as several layers of metal.

EdgedWeapon wrote:

.50 cal might work, but showing pics of what bullets do to a human doesn't count, because for something as huge as a giant to stand up, they'd need thicker bones, denser muscles - and that's without even mentioning how thick their skin would be. So something that would do nasty things to a human could have little to no effect on a pred.

Denser and thicker it may be it is still flesh a blood, and no where as dense as a bullet's metal core. Also the denser the medium the more energy is expended on the bullet; thus the bullet will mushroom and fragment quicker; this means the bullet will carve, and I mean carve, a larger hole. AJ said think of a bullet as been stabbed with a pin and it being twisted; this is like being stabbed with a pin and the tip exploding. It may not kill them but the WILL feel it when it starts to cut a 2 inch diameter hole in their flesh. As for the .50 cal which will shoot through and through a brick house or an inch of steel plate that will carve a 6 inch cavity in flesh; and that's just the FMJ.

EdgedWeapon wrote:

.50 cal might work, but showing pics of what bullets do to a human doesn't count, because for something as huge as a giant to stand up, they'd need thicker bones, denser muscles

Er, .50, at least military grade, can penetrate upward of an inch and a half of steel plating. Felarya Predators have above-normal skin and the like, but they aren't steel-skinned. There's only so far you can take biological materials in regard to hardness.

EdgedWeapon wrote:

- and that's without even mentioning how thick their skin would be.

2.5mm is the high average, and 1.55mm the low average, for normal human skin penetration. Even if you give a Predator x15 skin thickness - which has its own problems - and eight times the durability of human skin (or x120 total), you're looking at a .50 over-penetrating the skin. Better yet, guess what? You've now put the bullet within its tumble area

EdgedWeapon wrote:

So something that would do nasty things to a human could have little to no effect on a pred.

Not really, no.

Also, if you notice in the images, the extent that the bullet travels is further than your average human being is thick. These images are more accurate for predators than humans, as by the time an AK bullet has travelled through a human body it has encountered more type of tissue. These tests were conducted with ballistics gel, which is meant to simulate flesh human and animal muscle. Since predators are bigger, their tissue is thicker so this accurately shows what would happen, unless of course you give them much denser muscle, but that would just reduce the penetration can cause the bullet to tumble sooner.

Plus, I want to add, it's still flesh, you can still cut it with a knife. It would be a useless cut, but it would still cut it.