VERY IMPORTANT ANNCOUNCEMENT!

Ok, first and foremost, I'll be laying down the ground rules here for this thread people.

Firstly, any attempt to derail this topic will be met with severe cosequences, that means staying ON THE POINTS AT HAND, and not turning this thread into another flamewar.

Secondly, this involves the ENTIRE FELARYAN COMMUNITY, DA included, not just the forums.

Also, please note that the comments are directed at ALL SIDES, not just one, unless stated otherwise!

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Now, the reason for this announcement is very concerning to all of us...

The goings on in DeviantArt in recent weeks and months have greately concerned some of our members and staff in both the forum and on DA. We have received disturbng accounts of acts of trolling, flaming, bashing, spamming, and even attempted hacking by some of our members.

This is especially concerning to us when it paints the whole Felarya community we all strived to build in a very negative light. Worse still, it makes us look like a "Safe Harbour" for people who utilise these practices in the public view, as these actions are performed publically.

I will not name names of those responsable for these actions, as I am sure those who are reading this know whom they are and what they did. I will be making a journal entry into my DA account similar to this as well.

Now, I have heard many excuses for these actions, I have seen the posts, I have read the logs, and I have been provided information reguarding these events, including, but not limited to: "He/She/They would not be reasoned with! I had to do it!", "I showed them what true trolling is." Or "I needed to let off some steam in a place where I can do it!" .......

Guys and girls, this MUST stop now! DA is NOT your frustration doll, and it is NOT a place where you can scar up one of Felarya's major sources of members with impunity. There is no reasonable excuse for any of this shit to occur. All that is being accomplished is creating a new set of problems, seperated from, but related to the old ones earlier this year.

I mean, for Christ's sake I thought we all got over all this crap when the Final Resolution Thread in the Forums happened. Those involved in this where ALL witness to this... We all said we wouldn't let this happen again! We all said we would help carry the load! And yet since then, nothing has changed, nobody beleived a damn thing did they?!

I am getting ROYALLY fed up with this, so now, I'm going to at long last speak the truth from my perspective, from my mind, to ALL of you.

I'm not the smartest or most productive member in this place, I know I'm not always here, and I know I should be... Alot of you all are here far more frequently than I am... I took this position because I felt I could do some good here, with the skills I have in forum moderating and adminship, I beleived I could do something more than stand and watch... Maybe I was wrong... I dunno, but one thing I can count on, one thing I always do, is I speak the truth from my own point of view, from how I see it, and I try to get all points of view, as many as I can before I do anything.

The way I see this problem is this:

All this could have been avoided, or at least prevented... None of this was a necessity. Everything here seems to stem from the earlier conflicts we have had, I've heard blame being leveled at members and staff, I've now seen the attempt at what Karbo calls 'Gatekeeping' first-hand, and NONE of what is supposedly being locked out actually matters in the greater scheme of things.

You want to know why I see things that way? Because I actually understand what Karbo means by letting people do what they wish with the setting.... We don't need the level of quality control some are espousing. This is not Lucasarts, and even if it where, I'll give you an analergy to utilise.

Karbo has created this setting call Felarya, just as Geroge Lucas has created Star Wars, right? Well, there are outside writers and artists who would like to carry on the works of the original creators in their own way. Karbo creates the core, and others build up the setting around that, just like Lucas and the Expanded Universe stuff. Now, Karbo may like some of the content others are producing, so he canonises them as part ofthe core setting, just as Lucas and his team do when they canonise certain aspects of the EA. Now, both Karbo and Lucas don't canonise everything obviously, for different reasons, such as conflicting issues, or it doesnt fit with how they view things, gets cut in editing, that sort of thing.

Then we have the fan-made creations. These certainly may contain good ideas, bad ideas, ludicrous ideas, golden ones, whatever. These stories/pics/whatever will never be recognised as official, and thus Lucas doesn't give a shit about them, he certainly isn't going to slap the author for ruining his setting, and as long as the author doesn't try to make money off of anything to do with his creation without a license, he does not give a shit about it. Karbo is probably the same way about Felaryan works he deems unacceptable as canon material. He'll comment about it at most and leave it at that.

So my question is simply this, why the hell do you guys and girls give even half a shit as to wether some person from the dark side of DA, or even here in the forum, writes or draws a poor peice of art? I mean, one constructive critiquing comment is all that is required, if the artist/writer reacts poorly to it, who cares? The only time you should take any further action is when they request help in improving. You cannot help those who wont accept it, don't force the issue, those actions are the ones that lead to these series of conflicts, and the supposed "Need" for this gatekeeping. It's not needed, and it accomplishes nothing.

Contributors should be made aware though that they are using other peoples work, and should respect that. When the creators of a said peice try to advise you on how the peice actually works, please understand that they arn't trying to attack you reguarding your intended work. They are not trying to sabotage you, and they arnt stopping you from doing what you will, but don't violently shrug them off either... there is nothing wrong with hearing the points of view of others, but there definitely IS something wrong when the disagreement heats up and truns into a grotesque flamewar. That helps nobody and is counterproductive. This principal extends to all communications too, don't go making assumtions about intent.

Also, for creators, please don't be overzealous in your attempts to protect your work. I know, I know, that sounds crazy, but hear me out, The fan-works you see won't be made canon anyway without your concent if there is a conflict, read above about suspected canon policy. And remember, creators, how you react to critique is as much responsable for what happens as much as the critique itself. Remember, you can either take the critique on board, or ignore it entirely. You don't have to react with a flaming bullwhip at every perceived negative connotation in someones post. it's easy to get angry at someone whom you think doesn;t like your work, but it is infinitely better to check the content of the words and act accordingly. there is a big difference bitween a crtique and a bashing from a legitimate troll. comments like 'You should hang yourself for making this" is bashing. Ignore it and report the offender, do NOT react to them! However, a person trying to point out flaws and suggesting ways to help improve the work is someone who took the tme to look at your work, and is trying to help you improve it with a fresh set of eyes... These are posts you should consider seriously, as there is nothing wrong with self improvement, unless you are worried about vanity...

With all that said, I know the situation is more complicated than that, people on DA react differently than those in the forum and all that, plus interpersonal communication still seems to have been damaged, and nobody is looking to fix the rails on either side of the tracks, plus people viewing eachother with various emotions and pre-prescribed views of hostility... Honestly people... This isn't hard... How you react on DA should be no different than on the forum. if you react stupidly on DA because of some pre-conceived immunity because we don't moderate there, you are no longer correct. Yes, I am aware of the precedent set with Kri's Journal, but then think about what happened with Shouda. he got blacklisted because he was badmouthing the entire community and proclaiming himself "better than th rest". Sure, he wasn't banned from DA, but he was no longer welcome among the Felarya Community.

As for interpersonal communication, what that means is that people are NOT talking with each other. Despite my best efforts to get everyone talking to each other again, people are still in a state of stasis, wary of intentions, tired of the fighting, or simply mistrustful of anyone who was "On the other side of the fighting"... for the love of god, GROW UP! Pluck some courage and TALK to eachother!, And don't mean to simply do it because I say so, I meant to socialise, share your thoughts, and I mean regularly, not as a one off thing like a goddamn Christmas party, or a Funeral, as that might be more fitting. I mean damn, the place is DYING here, and all you lot can do is sneer at eachother from across the fence-lines through your sniper scopes.... You ALL say you've tried to talk, tried through PMs or Chatbox, or Ventrillo or what have you. I see no evidence of any real communication going on short of when this place is about to fucking COLLAPSE.... It takes a goddamn emergency these days to get you all to talk! There is no regular communication here, at all, and that means small problems that crop up, like this one started out as, fester until it becomes a serious issue, one that demands serious action.

And as for the last problem; How people view eachother. Well, here is the thing, Your personal bias, oppinion or whatever it is you hold against anyone else, is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT! Those are just fucked up indulgencies that have to be set aside. I do not care if you don't like someone in the community, if your judgement is affected by that bias, then you need to go cool off, calm down, and think with a rational mind. there is no excuse for any action based on preconception of someone else, as assumptions are usually wrong.

Next: The forum itself.

I realise that many view the forum as a place for serious construction of the setting, and while this is true to an extent, remember that the forum, and Felarya in general is also a hobby to be enjoyed by all. I have no problem with people taking their world-building seriously. Some do see that as a form of enjoyment, So please, consider more points of view than your own when you hit that post button!

Ok, one last thing is simply this.

Now, I realise that this will generate flak from both sides. People will defend their views, and part of the problem is that nobody is willing to set aside their personal views for the greater good. There is no tollerance... What I am asking is that BOTH sides lay down their weapons and let diplomacy resume.

Karbo.

I know we all said we'd shoulder the load of looking after this community, and, for my part, I'm doing all I can mate, but your still the boss man, there are some decisions only you can make, there is only so much I and the other mods can do as mere moderators. You may need a co-admin here in the forum to help do some things one admin cannot do...

Also, Anime Junkie did try to communicate with you about some of his ideas about how to solve this, and i don't know what they are, but I know AJ is making an effort here.

Ok.... That is all, this thread will remain open for all those who seek to reply to it, but I hope to NEVER have to make a post that took an hour to compose.... I'm old, I'm tired, and I am getting to the point where I am wondering if any of this is going to sink in and make my point worth while.

damn man, You're right on so many levels its scary. I too decied to shrink back from the back lash i got when i first posted my ideas, and now after all this time i can say i will go back rework and retool my ideas and if im lucky my get some others interested. Other then this i really dont know what to say.

Uhh, luke, a lot of that was critique i.e. things you should've fixed when they were pointed out.

Like I said, it was the way people act and react to the musings of others.

When an idea gets posted, you get feedback, and not all of it is good stuff. I remember my own first idea was shot down so hard you you couldn't see the bottom of the crater I made... The point is, people need to react appropreately just as much as the critiquers need to be mindful of their own posts... it's a double edged sword.

No... not again... why can't some people just give a thought or two before they create another shitstorm? I don't know what exactly has happened this time, but anyway... from what Darkstorm Zero says, it looks like the same old shit again...

But anyway, I'm sick of just because some people act like they have no common sense makes the whole community look bad. I'm sick of having conversations like that we got at this "final resolution" thread and some make it look pointless now. I'm sick some people just want to think of two opposing forces, the forum and the dA group, when they are the same effin' thing - and I mean it: we talk of rivals, of people jumping at each others' throats just because they're in one part of the community...

I'm really sick of it. I do my best for this community, but I'm just one person. This is a community, there are more people that just one person wanting to fix things. If there is no communication, if there is no common sense, if there is no respect... then what we get?

Anyway, looks like no matter how many times I say it, no one - or most - don't listen at all, so I'm gonna list all - or at least most of it - the things I have said during my stay in this community, even if I'm not a very active member:

- Accept criticism. When you post anything on the Internet, you are exposed to other people's opinions. Some will praise your work, others will just like it and give you some hints to improve, others won't like what you do and tell you why, others will just come and troll... You have to deal with criticism, either good or bad, and just ignore trolls.

- Be humble. Or at least try not to think that what you do is the absolute truth. You can be mistaken, and this is related to my previous statement about accepting criticism, but this is for both the creator and the commentor. If you are going to criticize something, have some empathy, and if you are criticized... well, I've already told you what I think.

- This is no competition, this is not the work of your life. This is for fun. Just fun. You create your locations, stories, characters... but it's just for fun. You aren't here to "I'm gonna impress Karbo and hope he makes my work canon". No. This is Karbo's setting and he allows us to have our own ideas based on his world. Only thing some of us ask about this is respect to his work... and, more importantly, have fun.

And suddenly, shitstorms. No matter how many times some people like me try to bring some common sense to help both sides. And those things make me wonder why I keep coming and repeating the same crap. But maybe it's because I still have some hope for this community - and yes, when I say 'community', I mean both the dA group and the forum, TOGETHER - and that's why I haven't said "screw you, Felaryan community, if there's just shitstorm and no fun, what gives?".

But today... I don't know what to think today... Because I could think "it's the same thing, you'll still hang out this place", but patience has a limit...

God dammit, it's the legacy forums all over again. I wonder if this is the natural life of a forum - for a while there's peace and harmony, then it all devolves into a flame war. Why would you be angry about criticism? I LIKE criticism. It tells me what I was doing wrong. Nothing annoys me more than when I write a 7000 word story to the best of my ability and then everyone ignores it. I don't like it when people just say hurtful things, but come on. Don't respond to someone if they do. If it's on dA, just remove their comment. If it's on the forum, just report them. Don't sink to their level by fighting back, that just shows the trolls that they got you and gives them the satisfaction of having gotten under your skin. These people just want attention - DON'T give it to them.

The problem comes when you repeatedly tell people to ignore trolls and focus on criticism, be it more or less favorable to them. And you feel patince is growing thinner and thinner just because some are stubborn and won't let some common sense get through their minds.

And I'm really sick of that. I don't know how it's going in the Legacy forums, but from what I see, if the Felaryan community keeps with these shitstorms and flamewars so often... *sigh* anyway, you can get an idea...

So I see no one here is familiar with how the Internet works. Keep giving this drama credibility, and it'll just become stronger. Great, big, dramatic posts about the future of the community and some ongoing war isn't helping anyone. This bullshit is making a mountain out of a molehill. Fighting drama with drama is a lot like using a flamethrower to put out a fire.

Since when did dA ever even matter over here? Furthermore, when did blatant disrespect of a setting and all those who have built it up become more acceptable than the righteous defense of that setting and the sanctity of fair critique? When some dA "writer" (and trust me, I use the term very loosely here) threatens a friend of mine for nothing more than offering feedback, I will not let that pass. How just and fair it is that this person is portrayed as a victim, and my ilk the terrible, malicious trolls! Funny how much travesty can happen on dA without notice, but once certain individuals take action in that lawless waste, well now... the question of policing comes up. But yes, what really matters is that these poor, poor victims of our wanton trolling feel it safe to write their Mary Sues and smut.

As for the "hacking" allegations, that is a boldfaced lie. DZ, since I'm sure you're only working on secondhand intel here, let me be clear: if I, or any one of us, had wanted to resort to breaking the law, their accounts would be in our hands. We're better than that, though. In fact, the only one that threatened to hack anyone is now banned from dA for it. And guess what? It wasn't one of us.

In any case, we've ceased trolling a while ago. The only ones continuing are not associated with these forums anymore, because they were driven off despite their significant contributions. I've long considered joining their ranks, and if people don't wise up soon, I will.

And to the rest of you, I'd advise you refrain from commenting on those matters with which you are not familiar.

Quote :

So my question is simply this, why the hell do you guys and girls give even half a shit as to wether some person from the dark side of DA, or even here in the forum, writes or draws a poor peice of art? I mean, one constructive critiquing comment is all that is required, if the artist/writer reacts poorly to it, who cares? The only time you should take any further action is when they request help in improving. You cannot help those who wont accept it, don't force the issue, those actions are the ones that lead to these series of conflicts, and the supposed "Need" for this gatekeeping. It's not needed, and it accomplishes nothing.

yup yup.

It seems to me, that the DA community is the more serious problem, since they are operating without guidelines and are free to extend their hate to whomever they wish.

You know one thing I have noticed, is that it's AMAZING what anonymity does to people.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

You know one thing I have noticed, is that it's AMAZING what anonymity does to people.

Anonymous? When have I been anonymous?

Zachary David Lamb
54 Woodlane Street, Granite Falls, NC, 28630
828-962-5469

Now let's see how I act. Fifty dollars on "not differently at all".

Quote :

So I see no one here is familiar with how the Internet works. Keep giving this drama credibility, and it'll just become stronger. Great, big, dramatic posts about the future of the community and some ongoing war isn't helping anyone. This bullshit is making a mountain out of a molehill. Fighting drama with drama is a lot like using a flamethrower to put out a fire.

This.

Seriously, I think everything was doing pretty fine, no? Why talking about this again? I don't see the point.

And now, one big question: What the hell are you gonna do with DA? Haha, come on. You can't do anything about DA. People will still produce their art, and it is how it should work. Even if you posts 100000 blogs on felarya group talking about how amazing the forum is, people will still continu in their freewill of writing. So goes the world.

I'm tired to hear about this on and on...Let's just get over it.

Oh, trust me, guys, I know my share on how the Internet works, that's why I lecture with the same old crap from past experiences. I know my shit, many know their shit...

... But looks like people prefer their dramas. I'm just sick of that. Lecturing people can be exhausting. xD

You guys do whatever you want, maybe Zion is right and we're giving this too much importance, maybe it isn't true and we should give it a thought... Despite we've given this a thought a lot of times, and this shouldn't come up again and agin.

Y'know? I don't care anymore. I'll do what I do best in this community: have fun. And nothing else. =P

Its like junk mail. You "block sender" and you receive more, but the moment you start not caring, it slowly goes away.

Also, if you really wanted to reprimand aggressive people from our community on DA, they will have to be disobeying DA rules, and I imagine we'd have to approach DA as a community and let the staff know about the problems with certain members of our community causing problems and using their site as a haven. However, I can see that getting out of hand too.

You know, if you ignore it and/or tell everyone in a post on the felarya group that everything's fine, the 70% of Felarya fans on DA who haven't encountered the problems will believe it. If a small group of people make problems, telling it to the community and to people who don't know will only make the problem worse. Meanwhile, we take care of the troublemakers in secret.

Krisexy26 wrote:

I'm tired to hear about this on and on...Let's just get over it.

THANK YOU.

Krisexy speaks wisdom, people. I want you to ask yourself what this forum is for. This forum is for people to post ideas and stories, get feedback, and refine them. There's a roleplaying section, which I personally don't visit since I'm not big on roleplaying, but it can be used to generate ideas for plots and character interaction, or even be used as a medium for two writers to flesh out a shared project between them.

This is not a place for politics. Okay, so Person A thinks that Person B's opinion on magic, or gem weapons, or naga cultures, is stupid. WHOA HEY GUESS WHAT IT'S THE FUCKING INTERNET. I understand and respect the work put into this setting by all people, but you need to understand that mature and rational people do not cling to their argument like petulant children. I'm not addressing one or two people, guys, because A FUCKING TON OF PEOPLE ARE GUILTY OF THIS. Rational people view the topic from all angles, and seek to understand their opponent's stance. Best case scenario, you come to understand their point so well you partially agree with it, and revise your own argument to incorporate the good parts of both. That's called self-improvement, folks. Too often I see people butting heads over and fucking over, repeating the same shit, and I know... at least one of them isn't listening.

Take, for instance, Krisexy and myself. I hope she doesn't mind me using her as part of my example. We've had some... serious disagreements in the past. Things have been said. Could that have been avoided if one or both of us had remained level-headed and courteous and talked it out? Probably. In fact, when we did talk, we found that we agreed with one another more than we'd both thought. Do I agree with everything she says now? Nope. I find some of it disagreeable, and I'm sure if we debated it, I'd probably think she's being just as irrational as she would think I was being. That doesn't mean we can't be courteous and try to come to civil disagreement. In the end, we might still disagree, and think the other is being stupid. Doesn't mean we need to turn a civil discussion into a flamewar.

I know it's easy to turn it into an insult contest. Sometimes, the other person just seems like an insufferable prick who won't listen to anything you say, and any thought-out point you present is just ignored or trivialized. They change the subject, repeat things you've already addressed... they're just being a dumbass! Rules of the Internet 11 - 13. All your carefully picked arguments can be easily ignored, anything you say can and will be used against you, and anything you say can be turned into something else - fixed. Guess what? That's when YOU ignore THEM (at least in public), and trust that everyone else sees that they're the one being assholes. Play their game, and guess what? Suddenly, you're the ass.

At this point, I'm rambling on about points we've covered before, over and over. What I'm trying to get at is personal drama and politics have no place here. Don't like someone? Okay, good, take it up with them personally OR SHUT THE FUCKING FUCK UP, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T BELONG HERE.

For that matter, I need to say something else to Karbo and the mods here. What happens off this forum is none of your concern. Just because some "writer" (there I go again, using that term loosely) comes crying to you that there's some bully on dA because they see you as some kind of god, that doesn't mean you suddenly have the right to police someone's actions outside of your jurisdiction. Have you been appointed as a moderator on dA? No? Then you're on the same level as everyone else there. Don't go acting like you're not.

The only things on dA Karbo or the mods have power over are the group... and the setting of Felarya. Karbo's already made it clear he won't police the usage of the setting, and that is his call. How others react to that... is their call.

I suggest using bold, instead of caps, but that was well said ^^.

Caps indicate yelling. At those points, I am yelling.

I know ^^;, but I'd rather strongly emphasize what I say (such as bold wording) instead of yelling. I'm no mod, but hey. *shrug* Just my two cents.

Eh, I'm the loud and boisterous type. What else can I say?

Just gonna say sensitive topics like these tend to degrade rather rapidly. Such is the way of the internet.

So, instead of typing a several-page thesis on the psychology of the internet, anonymity, and why people troll, I'll post some words of wisdom.

Bad things happen. Bad (relative to you) people exist. Bad people set out to do bad things Can't change it. Move on.
Good things happen. Good people exist. Good people sometimes have lapses in judgement or feel strongly about things. Can't change it. Move on.
My two cents.

it's nothing more than just "be the way you want, let the world be, consequences will come, and Bob's your uncle", huh? Yes, I guess we have been giving too much thought to the whole unjustified drama...

Anyway, as I said, I'll just focus on the fun the setting and the community can bring. Being too empathic is bad for my health, I guess. =P

Y'know what this makes me think of? Those guys in those new beer or wine commercials that are appearing. Some dude does something sneaky to avoid having to hold his girlfriends' purse and after he does it those guys appear out of nowhere and start slow-clapping his accomplishment, and there's that one guy in the chair wearing glasses and he's got this look that's like, 'you have done well my son'. Those guys drive me up a wall, but I digress, I think they would be appropriate for responding to what you've said. At least, about how right your words are. I can't really say for certain that doing this all over again was or was not a good idea in itself. Nevertheles...

*joins the slow-clapping guys and raises a glass to you*

Don't compel me to write my thesis. Too much complementariness towards me makes me speak more than I should and say silly things.

Quote :

So I see no one here is familiar with how the Internet works. Keep giving this drama credibility, and it'll just become stronger. Great, big, dramatic posts about the future of the community and some ongoing war isn't helping anyone. This bullshit is making a mountain out of a molehill. Fighting drama with drama is a lot like using a flamethrower to put out a fire.

I have to second zion and krisexy here. THIS, so much this.

Quote :

Seriously, I think everything was doing pretty fine, no? Why talking about this again? I don't see the point.

Pretty much. I mean, the forum has been civil for the most part. Me and Karbo both reconciled and have been chatting again. Ideas were no longer being ignored. Me and Kri are friends now. Hell, Zion and Kri agree with eachother in this thread. I think that's a sign things are going rather well.

The only "drama" as far as the forum is concerned is Jeatte's "forum-strike" where he's refusing to post anything, and he's still hanging around the vent and looking at the forum anyway.

Quote :

And now, one big question: What the hell are you gonna do with DA? Haha, come on. You can't do anything about DA. People will still produce their art, and it is how it should work. Even if you posts 100000 blogs on felarya group talking about how amazing the forum is, people will still continu in their freewill of writing. So goes the world.

I'm tired to hear about this on and on...Let's just get over it

Once again, krisexy speaks the truth.

DA is DA. 80% of it is stupid and full of terrible people, no matter which fandom or genre you explore on there.

As far as Felarya stories go, most of them are bad. Some of them are soul-crushingly bad (ask Mr. Nobody about those sometime), but there is some good. Worrying about DA won't do a damn thing. The ONLY interaction worth having with DA, as far as Im concerned, is to try and scoop up any good people that pop up, and get them on the forum so they can actually get to know the setting better and meet people.

We need more bro-tier people like Slimetoad and Walkingbyself who can post an idea, accept critique and modify that idea to fit the setting while still keeping the core concept of their idea, all while being polite and even *gasp* appreciative of getting help and suggestions.

I agree with Cliff.

Okay, guys.

We've got me, Krisexy, Cliff, and Bael all agreeing.

And this isn't progress?