Language Barrier in Felarya

Quote :

There is nothing which is flawless

Except this system and my wit.

Quote :

In condition the alliens speaks about simple thing but if you want a real debate with this alien it won't work

Sure it will.

Quote :

Because there is common database of knowledge.

An universal language is pure utopia due to one thing you need to create a universal knowledge so if something new and unknow appear your virus won't be able to define it.

Words differ, but concepts are the same. The gist of what the alien is saying will get through to the recipient, who will subconsciously define it into words.

If it's a concept that the recipient doesn't understand, they'll simply register the word in its native language.

Example. "Glorba fglesho whoaht macha ne discombuobulator," means "I need water for my discombobulator."

Note, we have no idea what the hell a discombobulator is, and thus we register it in its native language.

It's that simple.

GREGOLE wrote:

Words differ, but concepts are the same. The gist of what the alien is saying will get through to the recipient, who will subconsciously define it into words.

If it's a concept that the recipient doesn't understand, they'll simply register the word in its native language.

Example. "Glorba fglesho whoaht macha ne discombuobulator," means "I need water for my discombobulator."

Note, we have no idea what the hell a discombobulator is, and thus we register it in its native language.

It's that simple.

Evolution of the language
And what is a "discombobulator " What is it
It can't be registered if you don't understand it, so the Alien need to explain what is its discombobulator and even if it shows you the image why because it's something create by another technology you don't know.

You forget the children, the writting, and many other thing.

When a children

Some flaws flaws of your sytem:
1-face to face
This sytem work only if you facing another sentient living form, if the alien communicate wit another support or send you message by example a video you won't understand. the communication using a tehcnology won't work. Because you will have the sound without the telepathic message
In clear creation of a new a language to communicate a new barrier appears

2-a baby and the learning
A new born baby doesn't know anything even if the virus affect him, he won't understand you need to teach him the base of a language. But in a world where people speak different languages without noticing that it will affect the developpment of the children, by example a human children who an Alien teacher will notice the change and will developp a new language barrier between the child and his parents

3-the abstract
We create word to refer something which don't exist or don't have a real image, by example art religion, beliefs, feelings, love and hate, good and evil, the moral code,philosophy,mathematics, science time and space.
This kind of things are more personals
Everyone has his own vision of the same things, this view create a difference between the characters and create a language barrier

By example you think just about "E=mc²" if the Alien doesn't know who is Albert Einstein it will say "what are you talking about from that there will be a long discussion before you arrive to understand each other.

In clear your virus it easier to discuss but not to communicate through another supports or to developp a common civilisation than if you learned the language without the virus. Why if you learn the language it will be easier to developp a form of writings which will allow a better share of knowledges and the creation of a new civilisation

In clear with the virus the time you gain to speak go to the time you need to understand

Quote :

1-face to face
This sytem work only if you facing another sentient living form, if the alien communicate wit another support or send you message by example a video you won't understand. the communication using a tehcnology won't work. Because you will have the sound without the telepathic message
In clear creation of a new a language to communicate a new barrier appears

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that telepathic signals could travel through an intercom, just like words.

And you're forgetting a key issue: Societies that rely on such technology will almost definitely already speak the same language.

Quote :

2-a baby and the learning
A new born baby doesn't know anything even if the virus affect him, he won't understand you need to teach him the base of a language. But in a world where people speak different languages without noticing that it will affect the developpment of the children, by example a human children who an Alien teacher will notice the change and will developp a new language barrier between the child and his parents

The child, presumably, would learn to speak the language of its parents. In fact, logic says that bacteria would allow it to learn to speak at an accelerated rate, via imprinting the meaning of each word into its brain.

Quote :

3-the abstract
We create word to refer something which don't exist or don't have a real image, by example art religion, beliefs, feelings, love and hate, good and evil, the moral code,philosophy,mathematics, science time and space.
This kind of things are more personals
Everyone has his own vision of the same things, this view create a difference between the characters and create a language barrier

By example you think just about "E=mc²" if the Alien doesn't know who is Albert Einstein it will say "what are you talking about from that there will be a long discussion before you arrive to understand each other.

How is that different from everyday life?

The alien wouldn't know that the E=mc squared equasion meant, but why would it? It would still be able to communicate with the human, and thusly the human would be able to explain the concept as easily as if they spoke the same language.

I can say something to you like "Megaguirus is the most BAMF daikaiju in scinema" and you probably wouldn't understand it because the words are unique to my fandom - which is nothing more than a minor culture. But I could easily explain to you what the words mean and we would have no further trouble.

It's the exact same principle.

Quote :

And what is a "discombobulator " What is it

It is a word I made up on the spot to illustrate a point.

Quote :

Ok, Gwada, bro, now I like you. I think you're an intelligent good man and I respect you highly.
But if you don't stop using that same smily, I swear to God, I'm going to reach through the monitor and smash your keyboard.

GREGOLE wrote:

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that telepathic signals could travel through an intercom, just like words.

It's pure theory because if it's a recording message or simple text on a wall you are owned
The telepathy we don't what is it because we never study someone with true ability of telepathic.

Quote :

It is a word I made up on the spot to illustrate a point.

But the illustration can vary between the people understanding by example our fear or people it's a spider for another it's a demon, but the problem the picture you receive can be misunderstand by you due to the fact the picture of the spider means other things for you. That's why we create the words

An another point a image can have many sense like the symbol and the signs by example lionheart refer to the courage because in my culture the image you know can mean another thing. By example you meet the aliens with a yellow shirt and it kills because yellow in its culture means danger

I we follow your theory we have just to communicate only by using picture but I doubt we will be able to developp our civilisation like now

The language allows many abilities than even with telepatic signal you wan't understand, because we can create you image with the images we know.

Your things walk in one condition we share the same logic but it's not the case, normality, logic and illogic are only subjective not objective

Quote :

I can say something to you like "Megaguirus is the most BAMF daikaiju in scinema" and you probably wouldn't understand it because the words are unique to my fandom - which is nothing more than a minor culture. But I could easily explain to you what the words mean and we would have no further trouble.

It's a form of language so there is a barrier language that your virus won't able to undesrtand without people don't have the explanation. In clear you create a barrier language

Quote :

Ok, Gwada, bro, now I like you. I think you're an intelligent good man and I respect you highly.
But if you don't stop using that same smily, I swear to God, I'm going to reach through the monitor and smash your keyboard.

Oh! You believe in God!
Don't worry I can find another keyboard

And a little question can you learn

To conclude the fact people tells the same language in fiction it's because the langage exist to send a message to the other. But in stories the characters communictae between each others but with the readers too

It's was pleasure to speak with you

Quote :

But the illustration can vary between the people understanding by example our fear or people it's a spider for another it's a demon, but the problem the picture you receive can be misunderstand by you due to the fact the picture of the spider means other things for you. That's why we create the words

An another point a image can have many sense like the symbol and the signs by example lionheart refer to the courage because in my culture the image you know can mean another thing. By example you meet the aliens with a yellow shirt and it kills because yellow in its culture means danger

I we follow your theory we have just to communicate only by using picture but I doubt we will be able to developp our civilisation like now

The language allows many abilities than even with telepatic signal you wan't understand, because we can create you image with the images we know.

Your things walk in one condition we share the same logic but it's not the case, normality, logic and illogic are only subjective not objective

You're stating the same thing over and over again. The meaning of words is expressed through the telepathic message sent with them. If the sender understands a concept that the recipient doesn't, then the recipient reads that concept in its native language.

It's as simple as that. There's no problem with it.

GREGOLE wrote:

You're stating the same thing over and over again. The meaning of words is expressed through the telepathic message sent with them. If the sender understands a concept that the recipient doesn't, then the recipient reads that concept in its native language.

It's as simple as that. There's no problem with it.

It can work due to one fact the interpretation it's not a pure translation there is some lost in clear there is a chance the message is not understood at 100% there is lost in the translation
Be cause the understanding can vary from a characters to anothers, the message can be read in different ways by the recipient

In clear this system won't be flawless because the users are not flawless

Hum this discussion remind me another...
you two have stated your point and are obviously camping on your positions, behind larges trenchs and thick walls. Thus this is going nowhere so how about dropping it ?

Karbo wrote:

Hum this discussion remind me another...

My thoughts exactly... We seem to lose too many topics this way.

Also, (ironically,) I think something has gotten lost in the translation here, since I'm not quite sure exactly what it is they're arguing... They both seem to have the same idea. Why are they in disagreement?

I pretty much agree Karbo. I think we can pretty decisively conclude that the Babel virus is a pretty solid explanation, and almost everything about it seems concrete. Sure, some minor flaws can be uncovered, but so it is with any explanation outside of 'factual science.'

So it looks to me, just to summarize this particular idea, that;

An omni present virus in Felarya (possibly magical which would explain why it doesn't leave the dimension and 'infest' other worlds) is responsible for why every species in Felarya, and sentient beings that arrive from other worlds, are somehow able to speak the same language.

The Virus works by transmitting unconscious active brainwaves or brainwave equivalent to the listener's virus, which then translates the words into the equivalent language the listener knows. That is to say, it works without it's host knowing about it's existence. And that it only transmits the meaning that the speaker intended to send. So if they were lying, the lie is received and interpreted by the recipient. From there, the other person can decide for themselves whether or not the speaker was lying.

An important aspect of this virus is that audio is required, if you can't hear the person, you can't listen. If there is a written language, a note, a sign, etcetera, it can't be deciphered unless you know how to read it. It also means that messages sent through technology works as well. There should be an explanation as to how recorded messages work, but other than that, I think I covered everything.

Basically, this is just trying to explain why people in Felarya from obviously very different backgrounds and even races are able to communicate effectively. By which I mean speak the same language. The same problems that plague any speaker still exist, like talking about something that the other person doesn't know about. If someone doesn't know what vore is and you mention it, it doesn't matter if you're on Earth, Felarya, or Cybertron. They still won't understand what you're saying. (Although on Felarya, they'll likely find out the meaning soon enough XD) They'll recognize the words, and maybe even through context clues they'll figure it out.

Going in depth is all cool, but the deeper you go, the more questions arise. Each answer raises even more questions, even if some are kinda nit-picky. And you get what we had here.

So unless you have a fundamental flaw in someone's idea, preferably with a way to fix it, try making one of your own y'know? ^^ So far, we have like two.

Karbo wrote:

Hum this discussion remind me another...
you two have stated your point and are obviously camping on your positions, behind larges trenchs and thick walls. Thus this is going nowhere so how about dropping it ?

I'm sorry.
My point was just to explain the language is not only the fact we speak, it extends to the writing, and other expressions of your body. It can't be only sum by a simple image you send to the mind of someone else.
An example you say "hi!" to a woman you meet the first time there is she smacks your face because since the moment you will say "hi" with a telepathic she will knows everything you think about her when you see her. In clear she will receive an important load of information but the problem is this information are not completely true because it's just the first feeling you have for this woman.
This will create a stupid misunderstanding.
We are both counscious an incounscious our mind it's not structured in the same way, in clear with a telepathic message you send two message one counscious and one uncouscious. the language barrier is not the language itself but a machanism created by our mind to control what we think, if this barrier is destroyed everyone will know what we think of the others and it may be more problematic.

Quote :

The Virus works by transmitting unconscious active brainwaves or brainwave equivalent to the listener's virus, which then translates the words into the equivalent language the listener knows. That is to say, it works without it's host knowing about it's existence. And that it only transmits the meaning that the speaker intended to send. So if they were lying, the lie is received and interpreted by the recipient. From there, the other person can decide for themselves whether or not the speaker was lying.

An important aspect of this virus is that audio is required, if you can't hear the person, you can't listen. If there is a written language, a note, a sign, etcetera, it can't be deciphered unless you know how to read it. It also means that messages sent through technology works as well. There should be an explanation as to how recorded messages work, but other than that, I think I covered everything.

I like this explanation, indeed it make the communication easier but if you need to use tools or technology you need to learn the language in what it's written:D

Quote :

The Virus works by transmitting unconscious active brainwaves or
brainwave equivalent to the listener's virus, which then translates the
words into the equivalent language the listener knows. That is to say,
it works without it's host knowing about it's existence. And that it
only transmits the meaning that the speaker intended to send. So if
they were lying, the lie is received and interpreted by the recipient.
From there, the other person can decide for themselves whether or not
the speaker was lying.

An important aspect of this virus is that
audio is required, if you can't hear the person, you can't listen. If
there is a written language, a note, a sign, etcetera, it can't be
deciphered unless you know how to read it. It also means that messages
sent through technology works as well. There should be an explanation
as to how recorded messages work, but other than that, I think I
covered everything.

Wait a minute, isn't that exactly what I said?

Quote :

Why are they in disagreement?

At this point, I'm not totally sure either.

Regardless, Gwada, I think we have a reasonable enough solution to this problem. I'm sorry if it got a bit intense for a minute. As I said before, I respect you.

GREGOLE wrote:

Wait a minute, isn't that exactly what I said?

Pretty much yeah. By putting all the information together at once kinda puts it in perspective. And hey! It worked! You did most of the work though so thanks. ^^

((Sneakin' on, yet again.))

The magical Virus still leaves room for incase someone wants to make an argument against being understood (Or, at the least, not understanding the natives). While it would be rare, there could be examples of citizens both Felaryan born and from other realms that are immune to the virus.

Similarly, if something were within a Vacuum-sealed suit when they entered Felarya, and they never took it off (Not all realms may believe in magic, may think the magical energy is some sort of radiation, and demand the suits as a safety protocol), they would never be infected.

Malahite wrote:

((Sneakin' on, yet again.))

The magical Virus still leaves room for incase someone wants to make an argument against being understood (Or, at the least, not understanding the natives). While it would be rare, there could be examples of citizens both Felaryan born and from other realms that are immune to the virus.

Similarly, if something were within a Vacuum-sealed suit when they entered Felarya, and they never took it off (Not all realms may believe in magic, may think the magical energy is some sort of radiation, and demand the suits as a safety protocol), they would never be infected.

If I understood, it's not really a magic virus but a natural virus which create a mutation at the level of the ears and the vocal cords. When you speak in you send at the same time the message in your natural language and a translation on a frequency you will receive with your ears and this is this frequency your brain will understand and in your mind you will have the feeling this person speak your language.

In clear you speak two language at the same time

The only way to be immune against it it's to be deaf

If you don't speak no one will know what you think

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

If I understood, it's not really a magic virus but a natural virus which create a mutation at the level of the ears and the vocal cords.

Mutation? Planet-Wide scale? *Inquisitorial Rosette falls from his pocket, along with a much disturbing grin stretching the face* Exterminatus! Exterminatus!

[quote=""]
The only way to be immune against it it's to be deaf [/quoite] Not quite. Immunities to Virus' are rare (Not 1-in-100, much more so), but possible none the less.

Plus, again, Vacuum-Sealed suit = No Virus to enter the suit. No virus to enter the suit = no understanding.

wrote:

If you don't speak no one will know what you think

Or, since it appears you went with the "Speech translates, listening translates", direct input in the mind would be non-understandable. Similar to thinking in a confusing foreign language in your mind.

Though this brings up a point (The thread, I mean), now that I think about it: Does the Virus rend 'Cants' obsolete?

Malahite wrote:

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

If I understood, it's not really a magic virus but a natural virus which create a mutation at the level of the ears and the vocal cords.

Mutation? Planet-Wide scale? *Inquisitorial Rosette falls from his pocket, along with a much disturbing grin stretching the face* Exterminatus! Exterminatus!

The only way to be immune against it it's to be deaf [/quoite] Not quite. Immunities to Virus' are rare (Not 1-in-100, much more so), but possible none the less.

Plus, again, Vacuum-Sealed suit = No Virus to enter the suit. No virus to enter the suit = no understanding.

wrote:

If you don't speak no one will know what you think

Or, since it appears you went with the "Speech translates, listening translates", direct input in the mind would be non-understandable. Similar to thinking in a confusing foreign language in your mind.

Though this brings up a point (The thread, I mean), now that I think about it: Does the Virus rend 'Cants' obsolete?

There is an infinte possibility to spread a virus by the air, by the water, by the food etc...

No matter the language you speak the understanding will depend on how your brain treat the information brought by your senses. In clear the translation will depend on how you understand a situation, but if you refuse anyform of contacts with the other you won't understand the other.

In clear this virus allow you to have a common point which will help you to understand , but you can have difficulty to understand it's normal. If you don't get affected by the virus you can find a way by yourself to communicate.