Battal Oak Update

Yes, after laying dormant for thousands of years, I have crawled out of my lair to bitch about something from eons ago!

After reading a story (which shall remain anonymous) where Battal Oak, I've gone back to read the entry to re-familiarize with the mighty tree.  Then, as I studied the relic from a bygone era, a realization suddenly dawned on me.  The idea is complete nonsense.  For reference, I'll post the entry itself so it's easier for me to point out my problems with it.

Quote :

On Felarya, not everybody uses rare metals in order to create powerful magical weapons. Some crafters chose wood instead, with very satisfying results. The best type of wood around for this usage is considered to be the mighty Battal Oak. With fully mature specimens standing at hundreds of feet in height and sporting leaves sometimes as large as a naga's hand, a Battal Oak is a truly imposing sight. While all the wood from the tree is extremely strong, only its core is famed for its legendary toughness, powerful enough for a seemingly mundane Oak weapon to withstand parrying against weapons of low to mid magic sword equivalence. Things made out of Battal wood have incredible endurance, and many a hero has triumphed due to their foe lowering their guard at having a ‘toy’ brandished at them. Battal wood has also been used to make legendary items other than weapons with great success, such as a gigantic ship that was claimed to have been unsinkable. It was said to have crossed the Topazial sea multiple times, returning with exotic cargo never seen before. The ship has since vanished, having never returned from its first voyage to the more frozen northern seas, though many say it's still intact out there somewhere.

Now, no offense to Silent-Eric, I'm sure he's a swell guy, but this idea is completely half-baked.  So many mistakes born from popular belief rather than actual research litter the entry, and I am here to point them out.

So the idea is that Battal Oak is such a strong and hard wood than it can withstand being split by "mundane" magic weapons, and can even defeat foes in combat.  Already, we have a problem.  If Battal Oak is such a supremely hardwood... then how do you even cut the thing to turn it into a weapon?  If it's that hard, then logically, it means that standard woodcutting tools would be completely useless.  Specialized tools designed to work with Battal Oak specifically would have to be made, but I imagine that such tools would be expensive and hard to manufacture themselves, which would make them not worth it in my opinion.

Next, the idea that wooden weapons are mere "toys", and that Battal Oak weapons, because they are so strong, can overcome a foe armed with a magic weapon in combat.  This completely overlooks are very element of combat, and that is armor.  Let's get this out of the way: wooden weapons are not toys.  A wooden sword, assuming it's of decent quality and construction, is essentially a sword-shaped club.  It may not be as immediately lethal as a sharpened metal sword, but you sure as shit wouldn't want to be clobbered over the head by one, lest you suffer bone fracture.  Assuming that Eric meant that Battal Oak could defeat an armored opponent, then this can only mean one thing, and it's that Battal Oak is very dense and heavy compared to regular wood.  And this makes Battal Oak completely unsuitable for weapons!  Weapons made from the thing, even something as an arming sword, would be way too heavy.  Your arm would fall off after only a couple of swings. Some wooden weapons were made to be particularly heavy, but that was specifically for training purposes, to help build strength when the time to use a standard weapon.

However, that can't be the case, as Eric also mentions a mythical ship made of the stuff. Even if it's supposed to be a legend, it implies that Battal wood's density is light enough that it can float on water. For reference, ebony is among the densest wood on Earth and sinks in water because of it. So Battal wood would have to less dense than ebony. But if it's less dense than ebony, then that means that a weapon made of Battal wood could not possibly defeat an armored opponent. It doesn't matter if it can parry a magic weapon if it can't inflict any damage on its opponent. As such, Battal wood would work far better as a shield rather than a weapon.

So in my opinion, the idea that Battal Oak is feasible as a material for making weapons or any tool period is completely ridiculous to me.  At least, for humans it would be.  You know what race it would be great for?  Titans.  Titans, according to the lore, could create this super steel that can cut through normal stone like a hot knife through butter, and the description for the Oak is that the tree itself was gargantuan even by Felarya's standards.  Wouldn't it be an interesting piece of lore that the Titans, with their Tedrek Steel, used the Oak to make tools, and indeed, built this legendary giant ship the description speak of?

So for the update, I would instead write something like this:

An incredibly rare and large tree found exclusively on Felarya. With fully mature specimens standing at thousands of feet in height and sporting leaves that are sometimes as large as a giant naga's hand, a Battal Oak is a truly imposing sight. While all the wood from the tree is extremely strong, only its core is famed for its legendary toughness, capable of withstanding blows from most but the most powerful magic weapons with ease. Due to its incredible hardness, Battal wood is extremely difficult to work with. Woodcutting axes and saws cannot hope to scratch the bark of a healthy Battal Oak, and standard carpentry tools wear down after only a few usage trying to shape it. Even cutting a small branch is a very long and arduous task that will eat through several high-quality woodcutting tools. As a result, in this day and age, items made of Battal Oak wood are most often found rather than crafted. It is theorized that Battal Oak was primarily used by the Titans in the crafting of tools, and indeed, many items made of Battal wood have been excavated inside of Titan ruins. Objects made out of Battal wood have incredible endurance, and many items dating back from tens of thousands of years ago show not a speck of rot.

Legend speak of a gigantic ship built entirely out of Battal wood, claimed to have been unsinkable. It was said to have crossed the Topazial sea multiple times during the Titan's campaigns against The Correctors, returning with exotic cargo never seen before. The ship has since vanished, said to have never returned from its first voyage to the frozen northern seas, though many say it's still intact out there somewhere.


For this update, I made the tree itself taller, since the real life giant sequoia already qualifies as being "hundreds of feet in height", with an average height of 164-279 ft and record height of 311 ft according to wikipedia. If the idea is that Battal Oak is extremely large by Felarya's standards, then it needs to make this behemoth looks puny by comparison.

Freebie bonus: the Titans' entry in the Minor Race page still lists the Jadong Temple as the Mysterious Temple. despite now having a proper name.

Hey Shady Knight! I have a few things to discuss about this. First off, I like your update, as it makes things much more logical. However, I think that "Most people don't think twice about being threatened with a toy" part a little off. Since nearly all swords seen in Felarya are of some kind of metal, and seeing a wooden sword wouldn't worry most people unaware of the kind of wood it is made from. Even if it was a normal wood sword, I doubt skilled assassins would care too much about it.

Also, such wooden weapons would probably be the most effective way to defeat Iridan, as they could resist her magnetic magic and metal attacks.

(Sorry I don't have more to say. Everything you said in the post seems pretty logical in terms of Felarya. Although, how digestible would the wood be if a predator gulped down a hero using the sword?)

Also, I regret to inform you that there really isn't much activity here. I still patrol these fourms daily, trying to stir up some activity, but it seems more and more empty. Though, it is awesome to have you back, as one of the heads of Felarya! I do hope to see this place retorned to at least some of its former glory!

Wow Shady you made me forget this was one of the questions I meant to pose years ago when we were doing that whole 'facts' page. Kinda glad I forgot cause recently working on biography for a fallen elven city made me see you're not thinking about this right, totally feeling all Kung-Fu Sensei like right now XD. Ahem. You believe the only way to shape wood is to cut it yes? Well that's not true in Felarya. In the official Felaryan Chronology it says that Elves had tree shaping magic which they used to built their homes and reinforce their stone structures what few there were. So in theory an elf could easily shape Batal Wood using their magic and since Negav has an Elven District one could surmise that Elven Lumberjacks did it, not Wizards or Blacksmiths this time around no? Now as for weight issues can magic not help us here too? Are there not feather light enchantments in Felarya or something similar?

Iridian's Ass Fat wrote:

Also, such wooden weapons would probably be the most effective way to defeat Iridan, as they could resist her magnetic magic and metal attacks

>.> And then he mysteriously vanished without a trace never again to spread his lies about Queen Iridian's supposed weakness. Obviously hooey the lot of it!....S-Stop taking notes dammit! XO

The problem with that is that this is overlooking several important factors, not least of which is how difficult it is to shape Battal (two ts) wood even with magic. You can't go in with the assumption that all forms of wood can be easily bent using magic. It's not only uninteresting, it's also a lazy way to just brush off the problem instead of addressing it. Other factors to consider, assuming it is possible to shape Battal wood using magic, are how long it would take and how tiring it would be for the mage. And last but not least, if it's even worth going through all the trouble to begin with. If it requires very specialized training just to potentially work with a specific type of wood, one which is already rare, then people are simply not going to bother most of the time. It's as simple as that.

Just to briefly touch with using magic to lighten a load, you're again overlooking important factors. In this case, how long would that spell last, and if it can even affect something so massive as a ship, let alone a giant galleon. Plus, the spell would be of no practical benefit on a weapon. Making the weapon lighter would in fact make it weaker, because it needs the mass to overcome armor. That's why Battal Oak would be far more suitable a material as a shield than it would be a weapon.

I'm open to the suggestion that Battal Oak can in fact be used by humans of present day Felarya , but that would mean toning down its hardness, to the point that it can't withstand a hit from a decently strong magic sword like it's nothing. And it would still require special tools and skills to properly work with. Don't use magic as a cure-all for all of your problem; that's just lazy.

Shady Knight wrote:

Just to briefly touch with using magic to lighten a load, you're again overlooking important factors.  In this case, how long would that spell last, and if it can even affect something so massive as a ship, let alone a giant galleon.  Plus, the spell would be of no practical benefit on a weapon.  Making the weapon lighter would in fact make it weaker, because it needs the mass to overcome armor.  That's why Battal Oak would be far more suitable a material as a shield than it would be a weapon.

Keep in mind that the reason why magic is called such is because there's no known way to describe what's happening, the fact that its a mystery. Electronic devices would be considered magic hundreds of years ago simply because nobody in the renaissance era would know how it works or how to describe it. The beautiful part about this, is that magic can indeed lighten an object's weight without altering its mass. That's why we can have similar insensible properties, such as the undetectable extension charm in Harry Potter, where you can use a type of dimension magic to make the inside of an object larger than what it appears to be on the outside.

Remember that magic is basically Physics' worst enemy.

Cutting Battal Oak could be possible, but incredibly expensive.  It would still require large scale magical equipment to even haul it, much less cut the "core" of the tree into lumber.

Here's the other thing I've always been curious about: What constitutes the core of a Battal Oak?

A curious bit of research led me to a place called "arborday.org" where I will openly copy their information and pretend its all mine just for the sake of looking smarter.



A. The outer bark is the tree’s protection from the outside world. Continually renewed from within, it helps keep out moisture in the rain, and prevents the tree from losing moisture when the air is dry. It insulates against cold and heat and wards off insect enemies.

B. The inner bark, or “phloem”, is pipeline through which food is passed to the rest of the tree. It lives for only a short time, then dies and turns to cork to become part of the protective outer bark.

C. The cambium cell layer is the growing part of the trunk. It annually produces new bark and new wood in response to hormones that pass down through the phloem with food from the leaves. These hormones, called “auxins”, stimulate growth in cells. Auxins are produced by leaf buds at the ends of branches as soon as they start growing in spring.

D. Sapwood is the tree’s pipeline for water moving up to the leaves. Sapwood is new wood. As newer rings of sapwood are laid down, inner cells lose their vitality and turn to heartwood.

E. Heartwood is the central, supporting pillar of the tree. Although dead, it will not decay or lose strength while the outer layers are intact. A composite of hollow, needlelike cellulose fibers bound together by a chemical glue called lignin, it is in many ways as strong as steel. A piece 12" long and 1" by 2" in cross section set vertically can support a weight of twenty tons!

Heh I have to split wood to stay a non Jedi-sicle and even I forgot there that many layers involved in wood. Huh so if the outer bark is like iron then what Bael is saying is the inner bark may be tough but the cambuim and other traditionally soft parts won't be normal tree soft but will be on a lower metalergic scale of hardness. It also means that wood chips from a Battal Oak have different properties. This just further illustrates how much adding addiontal herbological pages to existing plants can help. Even our big articles seem like stubs compared to the research you can get out of studying just one tree.

Oh and I the only one who has flash backs to FF1 and looking in the first shop seeing 'Wooden Armor' and just sitting there with a blank look on my face going "What the hell good do that do?!" Ironic years latter I would see a practical method for possibly making useful wood armor.

Wood is a terrible material to be making armor out of. It's just too rigid compared to steel, which makes it difficult, if not impossible, to shape into plates. And some other types of armor like mail is just impossible to do with wood. Some types of malleable wood can be used for that purpose; for example, bamboo was used in the making of samurai armor. But battal oak sure as shit isn't a malleable wood, especially since it's, you know, oak. Moreover, wood splits extremely easily compared to metal, especially properly tempered steel, which would require the plates to be substantially thicker to compensate. At which point, the armor would be too bulky to be practical in combat, much less evade giant hungry monster girls. That's why wood is best used as a shield, because all of its downsides as a material for armor don't apply.

Shady Knight wrote:

Wood is a terrible material to be making armor out of.  It's just too rigid compared to steel, which makes it difficult, if not impossible, to shape into plates.  And some other types of armor like mail is just impossible to do with wood.  Some types of malleable wood can be used for that purpose; for example, bamboo was used in the making of samurai armor.  But battal oak sure as shit isn't a malleable wood, especially since it's, you know, oak.  Moreover, wood splits extremely easily compared to metal, especially properly tempered steel, which would require the plates to be substantially thicker to compensate.

I guess that makes sense then. Alright so it's terrible armor all around for human sized folk but what about giants?

Shadre Ridder wrote:

That's why wood is best used as a shield, because all of its downsides as a material for armor don't apply.

I know at least one dwarf who could attest to this since his name was Thor Oaken-Shield.  

... Did I not make it crystal clear that the problem lies in wood being too rigid and easy to split? Why in fuck's hell would those problem magically go away just because you're twenty times bigger? Do even think for more than a nanosecond, jedi? Also, giants don't need armor - their sheer size would require way too much raw material to make. The closest thing they could wear as armor, to my belief, is animal hide.

Also, isn't this thread supposed to be about battal oak and why I think its current description in the wiki is flawed?

Shady Knight wrote:

... Did I not make it crystal clear that the problem lies in wood being too rigid and easy to split?  Why in fuck's hell would those problem magically go away just because you're twenty times bigger?  Do even think for more than a nanosecond, jedi?  Also, giants don't need armor - their sheer size would require way too much raw material to make.  The closest thing they could wear as armor, to my belief, is animal hide.

Also, isn't this thread supposed to be about battal oak and why I think its current description in the wiki is flawed?

Firstly I put a great deal of thought into every sentence I speak. For example I thought it would be obvious I was talking about giant PSI compared to human PSI. A human may have trouble cutting into iron strength wood but giants could do it I was saying. Secondly I think you should just re-write the article in a way that makes sense and present it to Karbo.

You acknowledged that wood is a terrible material for making armor, but then instead of asking if giants would have an easier time to cut the wood, you just said "but what about giants?" in the same sentence. So, no, it was not obvious that you meant giant PSI, because you didn't change the context to make it clearer. You only have yourself to blame, jedi.

And no, it wouldn't make a difference. Even if the giants could made a rudimentary axe out of sharpened stone, the description of the oak as of right now states that it can easily withstand a blow from an enchanted weapon. And that's for a hypothetical wooden sword made of the stuff, which would be barely a twig to it. I doubt a primitive wood cutting tool would work very well against a Battal oak's trunk, much less its core. A branch, maybe, but that's about it.

That's why I say that the entry needs to be revised, cause its description is utter nonsense.