avatar, the movie.

remember that they were mercs, so they will do immoral stuff for money, regardless. thats why they could get away with killing innocents like that, is because they're more of a private military than the government, its a bad loophole >.<.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

remember that they were mercs, so they will do immoral stuff for money, regardless. thats why they could get away with killing innocents like that, is because they're more of a private military than the government, its a bad loophole >.<.

...and the fact that they are 6 years away from Earth, and no one would find out about it until it could be covered up.

I don't buy that. There must be communications on a level that can contact earth. Don't the scientists report back to anything? There must be communications that good if there was pressure from the businessmen.

And really, the message may be a good one, but the way it was presented was really over the top and much too simplistic for my tastes. A child could have come up with a comparable situation. The villainous humans were such unrealistic and poorly presented characters. And all the humans are basically painted as jerks. Out of the military forces, besides the main character, one person goes against the order to missile the tree. We're basically supposed to believe that the natives are better and more moral creatures because it is forced upon us so much. Then again, I think most audiences today need it in such a simplistic formula to understand it. People today are too stupid, or more often, impatient and uninterested to deal with subtlety or ambiguity.

Jætte_Troll wrote:

I don't buy that. There must be communications on a level that can contact earth. Don't the scientists report back to anything? There must be communications that good if there was pressure from the businessmen.

And really, the message may be a good one, but the way it was presented was really over the top and much too simplistic for my tastes. A child could have come up with a comparable situation. The villainous humans were such unrealistic and poorly presented characters. And all the humans are basically painted as jerks. Out of the military forces, besides the main character, one person goes against the order to missile the tree. We're basically supposed to believe that the natives are better and more moral creatures because it is forced upon us so much. Then again, I think most audiences today need it in such a simplistic formula to understand it. People today are too stupid, or more often, impatient and uninterested to deal with subtlety or ambiguity.

Umm...there are likely communications that could reach Earth....but there would be some major lag. The ship took 6 years to reach Pandora. That means that it is either 6 light years away and they travelled at lightspeed, ot they travelled FTL and its just really, really far. Even with FTL communications, it would likely take months, or more likely, YEARS for a message to reach Earth. Also, you can't just use a radio. For that kind of extreme-range communication, you'd need a massive trasmitter. The only one likely belongs to the corporation and is only used for official communications.

Reality check, man. Humans ARE jerks. We've slaughtered natives to get our way in the past, and people still slaughter eachother all over the world because they're different and want their way. People hate and kill eachother based on skin color and which diety you pray to. I don't think its too much of a stretch to think they wouldn't have many issues killing people that are not only less advanced, but "aren't even human".

Keep in mind, these were MERCENARIES. Professional killers at best, hired goons at worst. The whole point about being a mercenary is that you are willing and ready to kill someone because the person that pays you tells you to. Real life mercenaries today do bad things. Look at some of the stuff groups like Blackwater do.

I don't think the Na'Vi were ever presented as more "noble". Hell, the princess was going to kill Jake just because she knew what he was (and shoot him in the back, no less). They attack miners and mining equipment too. That's not noble. The only reason they are the "good guys" in this movie is because its THEIR world being raped and plundered, and they're defending it.

Plots don't need to be overly complex if they are done well. Execution outweighs content. Hell, Lord of the Rings is basically a story about a short guy going from point A to point B to throw a ring down a hole. I thought Avatar was done well. The story it tells is an old, timeless story....and it puts enough of its own spin on it to make it fresh.

To be fair, I don't think anyone is Avatar is really good or bad. The humans are there to get a mineral that obviously must do something good, and they are willing to do what it takes to get it. The Na'Vi are being encroached upon and having to watch their world get raped and strip-mined. The villains are more complex that people give them credit for too. Hell, look at the businessman's face when he sees the tree getting torched and how he acts around the Colonel. He doesn't like what's happening, and I think he regrets it.

Even the Colonel is an interesting character. He talked about wars he's been in, and its very likely they screwed him up some. His only motivation in this movie is his job as head of security, he doesn't want any of his men to die. The whole point of that last attack was to catch the MASSIVE Na'Vi army by suprise so less people would die.

To all the people saying "Oh, he just screwed over the whole human race"...THINK about it. Pandora likely isn't the only place they're getting Unobtanium from. One moon isn't going to supply a whole civilization.

rcs619 wrote:

...and the fact that they are 6 years away from Earth, and no one would find out about it until it could be covered up.

Actually, they have FTL communication. Via Unobtanium.

rcs619 wrote:

Umm...there are likely communications that could reach Earth....but there would be some major lag. The ship took 6 years to reach Pandora. That means that it is either 6 light years away and they travelled at lightspeed, ot they travelled FTL and its just really, really far.

Or the third possibility (which is supported when the fluff points out that Pandora is about five LY away), is that they're going near light speed but not quite. Which, funnily enough, is again powered by Unobtanium (don't ask how they got there in the first place, Unobtanium in its official encyclopedia entry states it's vital to interstellar travel).

rcs619 wrote:

Reality check, man. Humans ARE jerks

Yeah, but there's a different message being portrayed in this movie. Cameron pulled every single string he could specifically because he wants people to want to be a Na'vi instead of a human (admitted in an interview, where he stated he wants people to feel more attached to the Na'vi characters than the humans). He made the Na'vi as attractive as he could (See: The story where he talked about trying to make the Na'vi female hot). He made them as respectable as he could (Noble Savages that can jack into anything in nature because they have such an affinity for it). He made all the non-protagonistic humans as dickish as possible (See: Extremely hammy military officer, Weyland-Yuanti douche corporate, redneck Marines about to kill them some blue Injuns). He made Earth into an overpopulated nuclear wasteland (20bil population on a world where nuclear waste is running into almost everything). He pulled everything he could to make humans bad. Look at Star Trek: The Next Generation. You see what they did to humans there? Or Niven's Known Space series (including Ringworld), did you see what they did to humans there? Yeah, Avatar humans are the direct opposite.

rcs619 wrote:

. We've slaughtered natives to get our way in the past, and people still slaughter eachother all over the world because they're different and want their way.

The difference here being that these aren't humans. Do you honestly expect me to believe that a first world nation - one capable of space travel - upon first contact with Aliens that are sentient is going to decide "Hey, we can murder a few tribes of these guys just because we want to mine out from under them"? Unobtanium changes the equation somewhat... but then you have to realize it's unobtanium - a room temperature super conductor that allows for FTL communication and near-lightspeed travel through space. As I've stated many times and places before, this is a material that if it appeared anywhere else in the galaxy would have scientists clawing over their ex-comrades that they just murdered to get their hands on a sample of.

Furthermore, we're not slaughtering them because they're different. No, we're slaughtering them because of Greed (which is funny, because Cameron - if he wasn't trying to make Humans 100% dicks - could have easily changed it into "The Earth will die if we cannot harvest this material". But then that wouldn't add sympathy points to the Na'vi, but, *gasp*, the Humans! And Cameron couldn't do that, no sir). There's basically two says you can look at the plot: Dances with Wolves in Space (in which case it's a somewhat decent adaptation), or as though it were intended to be stand-alone and not compared to anything, in which case the whole movie is essentially "Humans are dicks. Bet you wish you could be a Na'vi. Neener neener neener."

rcs619 wrote:

Keep in mind, these were MERCENARIES. Professional killers at best, hired goons at worst.

That became obvious when they flew their aircraft in extremely tight formations and failed to maintain distance from the flying gribblies coming after them.

rcs619 wrote:

The story it tells is an old, timeless story....and it puts enough of its own spin on it to make it fresh.

I agree, [s]Dances with Wolves[/s] *Bzzt!* [s]Ferngully[/s] *Bzzt!* [s]Pocahontas[/s] *Bzzt!* [s]Atlantas: The Lost Empire[/s] *Bzzt!* Avatar was a pretty old story. And heck, it did throw its own spin on it: It didn't happen on Earth!

rcs619 wrote:

The humans are there to get a mineral that obviously must do something good, and they are willing to do what it takes to get it.

Yep, the problem is that Cameron doesn't tell you this in the movie and only leaves you to come to the conclusion that it's humanity's greed. And, if you read the stuff online, while it adds a lot of grey to the story Cameron seems to still be trying to lay on that "Humanity is this bad world destroyer and unless we become like the Na'vi we'll just destroy more and more worlds as we die".

I'd like to address the "humans are dicks" thing (because I think Malahite took care of everything else). I think it's selective memory, people. I think we've done more good than bad. But we just like to concentrate on the bad. Like at all the "religion is evil" crap. Okay, yes: religious wars have killed millions. That is bad, very bad (and it usually is not from the religion itself, but corrupt leaders who use it to further their own agenda). But they negelect to mention the charities, community works, and humane projects all done in the name of religion, which amount to more in the end.

Not that I'm trying to steer this into a debate about that. It's just a really good illustration of my point. Selective reporting. Selective memory. We hear what we wanna hear, say what we wanna say, and recall what we wanna recall, because it furthers our own arguments to put that little bias on things.

Furthermore, everyone argues that destroying habitats is evil. Now, just playing Devil's Advocate here, but what if it's not? I mean, look at Darwin's Natural Selection. The fittest will survive. If humans tear down a forest, mine the resources, and build cities over it all, while killing dozens of species... aren't we the fit ones? We eliminated weaker species to support the strong one. And if it screws humanity in the end, we will either find a way out and adapt, or perish and let the newer, fitter species flourish. That's Nature's way, people. It's Darwinism. I'm not saying that's my philosophy. I'm just saying that maybe we're more like Nature than people think. Nature is cruel, harsh, and unforgiving. But humans are the ones who support the handicapped and provide for the poor, at least when we advance far enough that it's feasible. We even suffer for this, with weakened economies and drained resources, yet we persist out of a sense of morality. So really: are we truly evil, and Nature good?

While there are good points on both sides I still disagree that the villains are interesting. The Colonel is a walking stereotype of a military nutjob. Plus, its not made clear in any way he really cared about the men not dying. He just wanted to go kill some savages and told then men what they wanted to hear. And the marines are pretty much all for it anyways.

But the worse offender than the Colonel in Stereotypes was Parker. They basically made him into a retard to hammer home the point about how evil businessmen are, making him spew stuff about "MOAR MONEY" at every possible chance. If they had at least given him some... depth, there would have been much more to attach me to the plot.

in psychology i learned that humans tend to remember the bad things more. which is good really, if we didn't then we would probably be doing worse stuff than we are already. remembering the bad makes sure we keep our morals i think.

and yeah, i agree with you mr. troll, parker was annoying and shallow to the extreme.

Regardless, I hope they do a somewhat decent sequel. Because the plot was the thing that really needed fixing.

Other than that, I <3 them mechs and it was a pity they had to be wasted fighting for the side we weren't supposed to root for.

But oh well. It's Hollywood. Not much to expect. ^^

Jætte_Troll wrote:

And the marines are pretty much all for it anyways.

Well, in boot camp, they did make us say "KILL!" a lot. XD

And yes, humans remember the bad more, supposedly because it's an evolutionary incentive. But I think that, like many human characteristics, our separation from Nature has turned into into something else.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Jætte_Troll wrote:

And the marines are pretty much all for it anyways.

Well, in boot camp, they did make us say "KILL!" a lot. XD

Kill babies

Pendragon wrote:

Regardless, I hope they do a somewhat decent sequel. Because the plot was the thing that really needed fixing.

Other than that, I <3 them mechs and it was a pity they had to be wasted fighting for the side we weren't supposed to root for.

But oh well. It's Hollywood. Not much to expect. ^^

Haha, doesn't matter who you're supposed to root for. I was cheering for the humans through the whole last fight scene.

wasn't it emotionally powerful though?

It had the audience clapping and cheering audibly for the na'vi. I think it's been rare for something like that to be so powerful since the vietnam war.

It really shows the directing skill of James Cameron.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

It had the audience clapping and cheering audibly for the na'vi. I think it's been rare for something like that to be so powerful since the vietnam war.

I know you like the movie and all, but getting the audience to clap and cheer is not something that has rarely happened since the Vietnam War, at least in US theaters.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

It really shows the directing skill of James Cameron.

I though that Aliens and Terminator 2 had already established that?

Malahite wrote:

Archmage_Bael wrote:

It had the audience clapping and cheering audibly for the na'vi. I think it's been rare for something like that to be so powerful since the vietnam war.

I know you like the movie and all, but getting the audience to clap and cheer is not something that has rarely happened since the Vietnam War, at least in US theaters.

i had never heard cheers or claps in danish theaters, till i saw this movie.

Mentalguy wrote:

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Jætte_Troll wrote:

And the marines are pretty much all for it anyways.

Well, in boot camp, they did make us say "KILL!" a lot. XD

Kill babies

"Aye sir, aye recruits, carry on recruits!"
"Aye recruit, kill!"
Then someone would say "babies!" right after that. Until Rct. Wallace started the trend of saying "quitters!".

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Mentalguy wrote:

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Jætte_Troll wrote:

And the marines are pretty much all for it anyways.

Well, in boot camp, they did make us say "KILL!" a lot. XD

Kill babies

"Aye sir, aye recruits, carry on recruits!"
"Aye recruit, kill!"
Then someone would say "babies!" right after that. Until Rct. Wallace started the trend of saying "quitters!".

i always said "self"

Mentalguy wrote:

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Mentalguy wrote:

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Jætte_Troll wrote:

And the marines are pretty much all for it anyways.

Well, in boot camp, they did make us say "KILL!" a lot. XD

Kill babies

"Aye sir, aye recruits, carry on recruits!"
"Aye recruit, kill!"
Then someone would say "babies!" right after that. Until Rct. Wallace started the trend of saying "quitters!".

i always said "self"

Sounds like you need a hug :<

I'll try to go see it tomorrow. : D

Mentalguy wrote:

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Mentalguy wrote:

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Jætte_Troll wrote:

And the marines are pretty much all for it anyways.

Well, in boot camp, they did make us say "KILL!" a lot. XD

Kill babies

"Aye sir, aye recruits, carry on recruits!"
"Aye recruit, kill!"
Then someone would say "babies!" right after that. Until Rct. Wallace started the trend of saying "quitters!".

i always said "self"

Good way to go to Recruit Separation Platoon.

Just saw it. It was pretty effin sweet. Loved the creatures, especially the Rook. I didn't particularly mind the 'Dances With Smurfs' plot. The fantastic setting and amazingly realistic effects more than made up for it. Makes me excited for how CG movies will be like in the future.

I will concede this: the CG looked kickass.

well it was worked on for ten years @_@ if the cg WASN'T badass i'd be wondering what they did with their time. speaking of which: they were working on it for 10 years, why does the plot suck? X_x

for those who dont know it was announced in 1996, but set aside for 2-3 years.

Everything about the movie that I could possibly say about the storyline has been said, it is thin as paper.

The main redeemer of this movie is the CG & 3D. It's like sex for the eyes...
One of the good things about this movie was that it didn't jam the fact that it is in 3D in your face (They were too busy trying to jam the 'humans are dicks' in instead).
Lots of 3D movies go too far; characters reaching out of the screen that kinda thing. In Avatar, 3D isn't really obvious. things like foreground mist & smoke are 3D, so is the background. It's used to further the movie rather than to show itself off.

The CG, as everyone has already said, is exquisite. Interesting how everything glows. I took it as a sign of "The planet is alive" thing.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

well it was worked on for ten years @_@ if the cg WASN'T badass i'd be wondering what they did with their time. speaking of which: they were working on it for 10 years, why does the plot suck? X_x

for those who dont know it was announced in 1996, but set aside for 2-3 years.

Yeah, 'cause the technology at the time wasn't good enough. Rendering that kinda CG takes lots of power.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

I will concede this: the CG looked kickass.

Did you also happen to notice that the Na' vi are blue?