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 For the Bad guys.

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Pendragon
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PostSubject: Re: For the Bad guys.   Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:44 am

GREGOLE wrote:
Once again, we, on this forum, find ourselves arguing over which type of villain is the best, when the answer is obviously that it's far too subjective to make any one call.

I will repeat once again that a villain is only as good as his or her story.
Let's compare a few villains from different stories.
Independence Day: The aliens were technologically advanced space-locusts. Intelligent, but alien, unrelatable, and undeniably savage and malevolent. Yet they were incredibly frightening and made for a spectacular movie. Their only motivation was plundering resources. It wasn't a story about morality, it was an epic war story.

Conversely, you have the Joker, who's a madman who does what he does for the sheer audacity of it. He's cynical about society and doesn't trust it to do anything to stop him, which is why he goes out of his way to be as outrageous as possible. He's a shitload deeper than the aliens, and he makes a smashing villain. He has a motivation, but it's twisted to the point where it's hard to feel sympathy for him.

Then you have king Micolon, from Crisis and Scarecrow, who wants to eliminate a species that he views as Always Chaotic Evil because one ate his kid daughter. And of course, given how every naga in the whole damn story WAS chaotic evil, he was pretty damn justified. He wasn't a good villain at all, primarily because he was not only sympathetic, but more sympathetic than the protagonists.


Then again, you also have... oh hell, every anime villain ever. =P They're sympathetic and often good at their job. But they're still villains. They might do a heel face turn if they're sympathetic enough. They can be good or bad, depending on the writer's skill.

Then you have Hitler, who is a villain by anyone's perspective. A complete monster and the most vile human ever to be spawned on this planet, and yet he was only this because he was abused early in life and aspired to make something of himself. He was human and had a motivation that is relatable, but is still so loathsome a man that his very stare constitutes pollution and is capable of harming Captain Planet.


Oh, there's also Snidely Whiplash, who is awesome, your opinion on the matter be damned. =P


See my point? There IS no "best" style of villain. It's ALL about what the story does with them. Villainy isn't a career or a race. It's a plot device.

A villain with no motivation isn't necessarily boring, nor is one with motivation necessarily a good thing. Typically a villain is someone you want to see go down, and being sympathetic can get in the way of that. On the other hand, sometimes it genuinely does add to the story.

A good villain is someone that opposes the protagonists. It needn't be a person. A volcano makes a good villain if written well. How good it is is all a matter of how the story plays out.

I have to agree with this completely.

This will also make way for my sentient volcano side story. > : D
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spike833
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PostSubject: Re: For the Bad guys.   Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:29 pm

Nothing Here


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PostSubject: Re: For the Bad guys.   Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:57 pm

Every plot needs a good evil nutjob or two.

But I agree with GREGOYLE.

"Villians" are a product of their environment, and even then how evil they are is subjective.
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PostSubject: Re: For the Bad guys.   Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:49 pm

GREGOLE wrote:
Words about villainy.

Agree GREGOLE. A good villain can be either a nutjob that simply does evil stuff for the heck of it, be very unsympathetic and have views and stuff that makes them evil, or be sympathetic and evil and really still be a terrific villain because it's all about the plot. I agree 2000000% on what you said.
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PostSubject: Re: For the Bad guys.   Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:41 pm

I must join everyone else in agreeing with the genius that is GREGOLE. Much as I hate to be humble, I could not have said it any better myself.

But, like I said before, point of view helps. What GREGOLE said reinforces that statement, I think. If the story makes the villain, then the POV is the cornerstone of the story.
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Stabs
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PostSubject: Re: For the Bad guys.   Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:41 am

Well, my only villains so far are Hansel SchŲn, whose motivation is... that he knows no other way of life than obeying his master. Also, he's a sadistic bastard.

Locust could be a villain from any angle, as well as he could be a hero from any angle. To predators, he feeds them. To predators, he hurts them. To humans, he trains them to survive predators. To humans, he's feeding them to predators. And he isn't willing to kill his enemies, thus damning his men to a losing war whether they could kill them or not. Because he's not willing to step aside and let someone more ruthless do the job of thinking what is right and what isn't.

Then there's Sokkiz, a character I haven't used yet... I need something to top Hansel, like in Die Hard 2's Colonel Stuart topped Die Hard's Hans Grueber. Sokkiz' motivation is that he's trying to restore his sanity and reach perfection, and he has to go by what he knows. So he's kinda following his programming. But he's still an amoral monster willing AND decided to kill everything and everyone he meets (and he CAN kill everything and everyone he meets, he's a guardian-level threat who's not yet caught attention because he can't think big, or straight at all).

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PostSubject: Re: For the Bad guys.   Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:09 pm

Well, I have a pretty good group of villains from another story of mine that I was planning on integrating into my Felarya saga. All three of them are actually fragments of Zion's personality, originally born from the intense stress of having to kill his own fiance when she gave into her vampiric bloodlust, on top of the other issues he'd been carrying his whole life. They rarely manifested in his mind, as his will was strong enough to suppress them. But during an encounter with a godlike psychic being known as Apocryphus, his mind was shattered even more, and those three alternate personalities were absorbed by Apocryphus, and were later given human form by him.

Maje is the embodiment of Zion's insecurity and his inferiority complex. Though Zion had used his need to be better than others to fuel his growth, his insecurity threatened to overcome him when his confidence was shattered by the eventual rejection of various lovers, ending with his fiance, Vi. Because of this, his subconscious created Maje to shoulder the weight of his lust for power. Maje is every bit as mighty as Zion, and a thousand times more ruthless. He doesn't feel love, or sorrow, or joy. Only an eternal lust for more and more power. He wields dangerous magicks without any caution or regret.

Krusade was born from misplaced zeal and fury. When Zion was at his lowest point, he found himself intensely angry at all the injustices in the world, specifically those he'd suffered. Part of his mind, the part which formed Krusade, fell back on self-righteousness and a judgmental stance. Krusade will violently attack anything he sees as impure and evil, which is just about everything. He is intolerant, zealous, and unwavering. Poetically enough, he focuses on fiery attacks, to complement his hot temper and burning fury.

Genoside is from the deepest and darkest pits of Zion's anti-conscience. He is the closest thing to true evil I'll ever write. He was made when Zion's mind wrestled with all the malice formed from his anger, and the hatred he felt for those who had hurt him. Genoside is, literally, hatred and malice for everything living and happy. Zion's religious and compassionate mind rejected this personality most of all, stifling it so much that it quickly became the most active out of reflex. Within hours of taking a physical form, Genoside annihilated an entire town on Geha.

In the original story, they weren't technically from Zion's mind. They were from an earlier character I called Zakk, who was the main character. Zakk, Kenson, and Leif killed Maje, and while hunting Genoside, Kenson was killed. Zakk gave his life by channeling enough holy energy to fry himself from the inside, killing Genoside in an explosion of that energy. Krusade was confronted by Leif, and through an extremely grueling process, ghola-style, he recieved the memories of Zakk, though he maintained a slightly-different persona. He then called himself "Zion", and became my new main.


Last edited by ZionAtriedes on Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: For the Bad guys.   Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:11 am

Stabs wrote:
Then there's Sokkiz, a character I haven't used yet... I need something to top Hansel, like in Die Hard 2's Colonel Stuart topped Die Hard's Hans Grueber. Sokkiz' motivation is that he's trying to restore his sanity and reach perfection, and he has to go by what he knows. So he's kinda following his programming. But he's still an amoral monster willing AND decided to kill everything and everyone he meets (and he CAN kill everything and everyone he meets, he's a guardian-level threat who's not yet caught attention because he can't think big, or straight at all).


Something Like The Joker. Crazy to the point where it is and art form or genius. I would say just keep him as an extreme threat. ( Guardian level chracters required approval from Karbo). However I do like the psycho killer concept of people struggling to hold on to what little sanity they have left.


ZionAtriedes wrote:
Well, I have a pretty good group of villains from another story of mine that I was planning on integrating into my Felarya saga. All three of them are actually fragments of Zion's personality, originally born from the intense stress of having to kill his own fiance when she gave into her vampiric bloodlust, on top of the other issues he'd been carrying his whole life. They rarely manifested in his mind, as his will was strong enough to suppress them. But during an encounter with a godlike psychic being known as Apocryphus, his mind was shattered even more, and those three alternate personalities were absorbed by Apocryphus, and were later given human form by him.

Maje is the embodiment of Zion's insecurity and his inferiority complex. Though Zion had used his need to be better than others to fuel his growth, his insecurity threatened to overcome him when his confidence was shattered by the eventual rejection of various lovers, ending with his fiance, Vi. Because of this, his subconscious created Maje to shoulder the weight of his lust for power. Maje is every bit as mighty as Zion, and a thousand times more ruthless. He doesn't feel love, or sorrow, or joy. Only an eternal lust for more and more power. He wields dangerous magicks without any caution or regret.

Krusade was born from misplaced zeal and fury. When Zion was at his lowest point, he found himself intensely angry at all the injustices in the world, specifically those he'd suffered. Part of his mind, the part which formed Krusade, fell back on self-righteousness and a judgmental stance. Krusade will violently attack anything he sees as impure and evil, which is just about everything. He is intolerant, zealous, and unwavering. Poetically enough, he focuses on fiery attacks, to complement his hot temper and burning fury.

Genoside is from the deepest and darkest pits of Zion's anti-conscience. He is the closest thing to true evil I'll ever write. He was made when Zion's mind wrestled with all the malice formed from his anger, and the hatred he felt for those who had hurt him. Genoside is, literally, hatred and malice for everything living and happy. Zion's religious and compassionate mind rejected this personality most of all, stifling it so much that it quickly became the most active out of reflex. Within hours of taking a physical form, Genoside annihilated an entire town on Geha.

In the original story, they weren't technically from Zion's mind. They were from an earlier character I called Zakk, who was the main character. Zakk, Kenson, and Leif killed Maje, and while hunting Genoside, Kenson was killed. Zakk gave his life by channeling enough holy energy to fry himself from the inside, killing Genoside in an explosion of that energy. Krusade was confronted by Leif, and through an extremely grueling process, ghola-style, he recieved the memories of Zakk, though he maintained a slightly-different persona. He then called himself "Zion", and became my new main.

OK. You got my attention. Got any links to them in action.
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PostSubject: Re: For the Bad guys.   Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:24 am

Not at the moment. However, I plan on bringing at least Genoside back in my Felarya Saga.
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PostSubject: Re: For the Bad guys.   Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:08 am

ZionAtriedes wrote:
Not at the moment. However, I plan on bringing at least Genoside back in my Felarya Saga.

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