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Shady Knight
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PostSubject: Size of newborn giant predators   Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:05 pm

This is something that I think needs to be addressed. For the most part, I'm going to assume that a newborn "human" giant is going to be roughly the same proportion a normal newborn human baby is to its mother. I assume the same could be said for centaurs, sphinxes, fairies, elves, nekos, and other viviparous creatures. However, Nagas, Dridders, Mermaids, and Harpies are a different matters.

For the sake of simplicity, let's focus only on the oviparous species. Snake, fish, spider and bird eggs have different sizes, which wouldn't be a big deal, if we ignore breast feeding. Judging by Crisis' backstory comic strip, she was roughly the size of a grown human and survived without being breast fed, and Rin, even though it was helped via a powerful surge of magic, has grown from roughly human-sized to giant. I guess it could have been older thoughts that haven't been updated, but I think it's worth mentioning.

The thing that bugs me is what triggers the giant growth spurt? If we use assume that a newborn is roughly the size of an adult human and that it eventually grow 110 ft tall, what would newborns be like for human-sized predators? Would they be tinies until they have grown human-sized? This would be especially problematic with Dridders and Mermaids, since spider and fish eggs are very small. I think human-sized newborn Dridders and Mermaids would make sense, but in general, snake and bird eggs are bigger.

If we bring in breast-feeding, for those who would argue that the predators' breasts have a purpose, it becomes quite problematic, since the newborns would be too small compared to their mother. Yes, I know fishes go through several stages of growth, a lot of which are quite ugly, and I guess spiders do to but don't quote me on that, but there would be enormous growth spurts between each stage of growth.


Now, let's break from my butchered science, since I'm not a scientist, and let's try to come with an answer for this question: do newborn giant predators grow like their animal counterpart, or do they grow like a human would?

I also think there should be some average scale for a newborn compared to its parent. Like... the average giant Naga stand at 100 ft tall and the average hatchlings stand at 10 ft tall. I think it would help make things clearer as far as what a newborn would be like and how big would it be compared to its parent.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:02 pm

Quote :
This is something that I think needs to be addressed. For the most part, I'm going to assume that a newborn "human" giant is going to be roughly the same proportion a normal newborn human baby is to its mother. I assume the same could be said for centaurs, sphinxes, fairies, elves, nekos, and other viviparous creatures. However, Nagas, Dridders, Mermaids, and Harpies are a different matters.

Yep, that seems to be the general consensus.

Predator births can be roughly split into two different types.

- Live-birth predators (Fairies, Nekos, Human, Elves, Centaurs, etc): These babies are proportionately equal to a human baby in size (proportional to the mother, of course). Centaurs, Sphinxes and the like may be a bit larger, but you get the idea. They are larger, and physically stronger at birth than egg-born predators, but they are physically and mentally less developed (with the exception of Centaurs, Pantaurs, etc being able to walk soon after birth). They pretty much require the care of their parents to have any chance at all. If you take a look, you will notice that nearly all of the species that gives birth this way tend to live in social groups.

- Egg-laying predators (Nagas, Mermaids, Harpies, Slug-girls, Dridders, etc): Egg-born predators are much smaller and weaker when they hatch. A newborn giant naga, for instance, is somewhere between 3-4 feet tall (0.9 - 1.2 meters) at birth. Physically and mentally, they are also more developed than live-birth predators (I believe a newborn naga already is developmentally equivalent to a young human child). This means that they are able to go off into the jungle/ocean and begin to fend for themselves very quickly, instead of being dependant on their parents for all protection. If you notice, most of the creatures that lay eggs tend to be a bit solitary, and do not typically travel in groups. I think this is why we also see a much higher instance of abandoned children from egg-laying preds. Many of them were likely abandoned as well, and know its possible to survive to adulthood. You would still have some parents that care for their children, but it isn't the complete norm like it is for live-birth predators.

Quote :
For the sake of simplicity, let's focus only on the oviparous species. Snake, fish, spider and bird eggs have different sizes, which wouldn't be a big deal, if we ignore breast feeding

Breast feeding is unnecissary for egg-born predators. By the time they hatch, they have already physically developed far past the breast-feeding stage. It wouldn't suprise me if newborn nagas, for example, could eat solid food straight out of the egg. Actually, I don't see how it could be any other way.

Quote :
The thing that bugs me is what triggers the giant growth spurt?

It is probably triggered through a timed release of hormones, just like with humans. Keep in mind, it takes the average predator roughly 40 years to reach full size. It isn't like they shoot up to 100+ feet tall overnight.

Quote :
Would they be tinies until they have grown human-sized?

Really, it could go either way. They COULD follow the same rules as their giant cousins...or they could follow rules more similar to humans, since smaller predators are completely different species from the giants, and don't necissarily follow the same rules. I do find the image of a naga mother slithering around with her babies hanging all over her adorable though.

Quote :
This would be especially problematic with Dridders and Mermaids, since spider and fish eggs are very small. I think human-sized newborn Dridders and Mermaids would make sense, but in general, snake and bird eggs are bigger.

Yeah, I figure some things aren't going to be 100% accurate with nature. Dridder and Mermaid eggs probably are roughly the same size as the eggs of other predator species. It helps keep everything simple and consistant.

Quote :
If we bring in breast-feeding, for those who would argue that the predators' breasts have a purpose, it becomes quite problematic, since the newborns would be too small compared to their mother

Like I said, breastfeeding becomes a non-issue, since the hatchlings have already developed past the breast-feeding phase. Could a naga, hypothetically, produce milk to feed a baby? Sure. But they'd never get to feed their own, since by the time their baby hatches, it can already eat solid food. Its probably possible for them to breast-feed, say, a fairy's baby...if the Fairy mother can't make milk for some reason though.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:16 am

I need to address something that snake eggs, while their size vary from species, is usually pretty big compared to the parent, so I can't really imagine a 4 ft nagaling as the child of a 100 something tall parent. I guess it's mostly the length that takes the bulk of the egg, but I can't really see them being born smaller than a grown human.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:55 am

I think anyone that's been around for a short while should know my opinions on this subject. Don't have the time and shouldn't be letting myself get distracted with such things right now anyway or I'd write it up again. I'm going to be modifying both my introduced races to explain some of that a bit more.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:12 am

Sean Okotami wrote:
I need to address something that snake eggs, while their size vary from species, is usually pretty big compared to the parent, so I can't really imagine a 4 ft nagaling as the child of a 100 something tall parent. I guess it's mostly the length that takes the bulk of the egg, but I can't really see them being born smaller than a grown human.

4ft tall, not long. All in all, that nagaling would probably be between 12 and 18ft in total length. When you account for being coiled up in the egg, and the yolk and other fluids, the egg itself is easily 6ft long or more, probably closer to 8 or 9 feet actually. In other words, the egg would be at least as long as the mother's index finger, but most likely longer. It would be larger (proportionately speaking) than a chicken egg.

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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:09 pm

A chicken egg compared to a human you mean. Compared to another chicken, it's far bigger proportionately.

I would suggest some kind of weird dimensional anchoring, where Felarya tries to keep newborn life as close to a certain height limit as possible. However, that's just going to turn into a complicated way of hand-waving the situation again. Still I suppose it'd be unrealistic to make it sound realistic - and many fantasy universes hand wave things that don't make sense otherwise anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:22 pm

This is why I proposed to have some sort of chart for the average newborn giant predator, at least for the oviparous ones. Having an average is really just to get you a basic idea and can serve as a starting point for other sub-species of the same creature. Like we come up with an average for a newborn giant dridder, then it's easier to come up with an idea for how big the newborns of their smaller cousins are. I'm bringing it up because, spoiler alert, my next story involve the birth of giant predators.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:26 pm

Well here's the question. Realistically speaking, are you comfortable with giant babies that are at least 15ft + ?
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:31 pm

I'm not a biologist, so I don't know how exactly small newly hatched snakes, spiders, fishes and chicks are in proportion to their mother. This would at least help figure out if the newborn would be slightly shorter than an adult human, roughly the same size, slightly taller, or a lot taller. Then we can figure out a starting point for average height.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:49 pm

Think of this way: when born babies are at least a foot in length/height, which is somewhere between 1/5 and 1/6 of a normal human's height. Proportionately, a 120 ft naga's baby would have to be between 20 and 30 ft. So yeah. That's if you want to be proportional in relevance to our RL planet. (as opposed to a fantasy one)

However, in felarya we have the opportunity to really mess with genetics, which is why I think Eggs should probably be around 10 ft and grow in the mother for a bit first in the shell, and then spend another period of time growing after to get them tall enough to be acceptable. So that gives opportunity for smaller eggs, especially when you weigh in the possibility that Nagas would lay hundreds of eggs that could be filled with fluids as a "fake baby" - and there's only a couple real babies in the whole pile that only the mother knows how to find. Maybe at having to lay hundreds of eggs, that would be a reason why they are smaller, and appear more human height. Also, it would make sense to the idea that giant predators don't fully mature until like 40 or something.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:08 pm

I don't get what you're trying to say, Bael. Right now the discussion is about Oviparous predators, those who lay eggs and incubate them until they hatch. You make it sound like you're talking about Viviparous ones, which give live births.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:32 pm

A chart would be fairly easy to do, really.

- Humans/Elves/Neko/Inu/Fairies, and other humanoids:
- The baby is roughly the same size (proportionately) as a normal human newborn.
- It is almost completely helpless, and needs its mother, family or friends to help it survive.
- It probably grows and reaches maturity at a similar pace as a human child as well (Full-sized at 18-21 years).
- The pregnancy has its usual effects on the mother, requiring help from her friends.
- The babies would need to be breast fed until they can eat solid food.
- This could explain why the species making up this group are some of the most numerous in all of Felarya.

- Centaurs/Pantaurs/Spinxes, and other quadraped live-birthers:
- Their babies would likely be a bit larger (probably requiring a longer pregnancy), and are more developed at birth, probably walking within hours, similar to horses, cows, etc in real life.
- The child is more developed than the above category, it will still need its herd/pride/family group in order to learn and survive.
- The child probably grows at a somewhat slower rate than babies of the above category, but not by an extreme amount (Full-sized at 25-28 years?).
- The pregnancy hinders the mother to some degree, but their powerful lower-halves, and group support help to compensate.
- The babies will need to be breast fed until they can eat solid food, but babies in this category probably move onto that stage at a quicker rate.

- Nagas/Dridders/Mermaids/Squamataurs, and other non-mammalian egg-layers:
- The hatchling is usually somewhere between 3 to 5 feet in height (for giants) or 3 to 4 inches in height (for human-sized ones).
- They are also more developed mentally and physically than live-born peers. They are able to eat solid food, and be fairly active almost immediately after hatching. Their mothers produce breast milk in response to the pregnancy, but by the time the child hatches, it is already past that stage (the yolk of the egg filling in for milk during its growth and development). Most mothers in this category just see milk production as a mild inconveiniance.
- The learning portion of their brain is extremely developed, allowing them to quickly learn and adapt to the dangers around them.
- These babies take longer than the above two categories to reach maturity (Full-sized at roughly 40 years). Because of the long maturity time, and the fact that many of them have had to learn from experience their whole lives, full-grown specimens tend to be very cunning, very good hunters, and very adept at survival tactics.
- Due to the solitary nature of many of the species in this category, you see a much higher instance of abandonment than in other groups, although some will still live and care for their babies.
- The pregnancy barely shows, or has an effect on the mother, allowing her to remain agile and active up until the egg is laid.

** Harpies somewhat break the above guidelines, since nearly all Harpy mothers are going to raise their children, and many live in groups**

Also, cute idea, in the Docks outside of Negav, where all the human-sized hybrids live, Cobweb Dridders could make a good living as baby-sitters for newborns, since they are around the same size. Just a random, but cute, idea.

- Dryads:
- Reproduce by combining their seeds with pollen captured from the air around them. Seeds are released into their air when the conditions are right, and can travel great distances before settling down and sprouting.
- The seeds probably have some kind of mechanism, or internal thermostat that can sense the area around where it lands. It if lands in an unsuitable location, the seed never moves onto the next step and go inert. In all likelyhood, Dryads probably release a great many seeds into the air, and only a few actually land somewhere that matches the criteria for the seed to sprout and begin the process of developing the baby Dryad.
- Baby Dryads, at first, appear to just be normal plants until they reach a certain size (3 to 5 feet tall for the giant ones). When that size is reached, their outer casing will fall off, revealing a humanoid torso that is developmentally similar to the hatchlings of the above category.
- Their now consious minds then connect to the Dryad network, where the other Dryads will teach, comfort and nourish them mentally.
- Baby Dryads have an abundance of photosynthetic cells, allowing then to survive solely off light and water until they grow larger. As a Dryad grows, the amount of photosynthetic cells does not increase proportionately, necissitating the introduction of prey animals into the Dryad's diet to compensate. A full-grown Dryad will still get some energy from photosynthesis, but it will also need to catch and eat prey animals to survive (Although, because of their photosynthetic capabilities, and largely inactive lifestyles, Dryads need to eat far less than other predator species).
- Young Dryads have an unconsious camoflauge/illusion reflex that allows them to hide from would-be threats and predators. As the young Dryad grows, she gains more and more consious control over their illusions.
- Dryads also grow slowly, and grow for far longer than other giant species, allowing them to reach great heights. (Full-sized at 60 years?)

**NOTE: This is using my own personal theories on Dryads. It is just a suggestion**

Just a little list to try and show my ideas off in a better organized manner.


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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:41 pm

I guess it makes sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:52 pm

Sean, I think a naga would lay eggs, that's what I'm talking about.

-However, in felarya we have the opportunity to really mess with genetics, which is why I think Eggs should probably be around 10 ft and grow in the mother for a bit first in the shell, and then spend another period of time growing after to get them tall enough to be acceptable. So that gives opportunity for smaller eggs, especially when you weigh in the possibility that Nagas could lay hundreds of eggs that could be filled with fluids as a "fake baby" - and there's only a couple real babies in the whole pile that only the mother knows how to find. Maybe at having to lay hundreds of eggs, that would be a reason why they are smaller, and appear more human height. Also, it would make sense to the idea that giant predators don't fully mature until like 40 or something. -

^ Did you read that? The word "egg" is in the first sentence.


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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:58 pm

I have no clue what you just tried to explain.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:24 pm

It's very simple. It's something I read about before, and I thought it might go well.

Basic tip one that I said: Size of the egg would be proportional to the height of the egg laying predator. I suggested 10 ft, but cliff suggests otherwise. Size of the egg isn't really too big a deal.

pointer two: Since Nagas tend to lay eggs for young, and often snakes just abandon their eggs in the wild as well (or even if the nagas don't) there would be others who would snatch the eggs to use for themselves for whatever reason. A way to combat this could be that the naga mother lays hundreds of eggs instead of just a few. 98% of the eggs would be false (i.e. a shell containing a liquid of some kind instead of an actual embryo/whatever.) this would allow for a higher successful birth rate in nagalings, but not neccessarily a higher survival rate. Young snakes still die off a lot.

Pointer three: Since the Naga might lay hundreds of eggs, each egg is smaller, and allows for a more human-baby size instead of a 20 ft large baby. (which a lot of people seem to write and RP as if giant naga babies are the same height as human children) Also because of this massive difference in height, a period of 40 years would be a lot more validated due to the requirement of needing to grow from like 2 ft tall up to about 110 ft tall.

I broke that down as BEST I could.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:56 pm

I just wanted to throw in a possible option for predator reproduction. There are some reptiles and fish that use what is called Ovoviviparity. That's a reproductive strategy in which the fertilized eggs are kept inside the mother's body until the young hatch. At which point they're born live. Perhaps there could be some breeds of naga or mermaid that use this method.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:08 pm

Tuc135 wrote:
I just wanted to throw in a possible option for predator reproduction. There are some reptiles and fish that use what is called Ovoviviparity. That's a reproductive strategy in which the fertilized eggs are kept inside the mother's body until the young hatch. At which point they're born live. Perhaps there could be some breeds of naga or mermaid that use this method.

That seems to be the general consensus. It happens, it is just less common. I was mainly focusing on more broad, "normal" reproduction methods in my list.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:09 pm

I also explicitely said in the very first post: for the sake of simplicity, let's focus only the on the oviparous species.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:12 pm

The size of the giant preds' newborns are about 3-5/4-6 ft inches right? So what next then?
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:00 pm

rcs619 wrote:
).

Also, cute idea, in the Docks outside of Negav, where all the human-sized hybrids live, Cobweb Dridders could make a good living as baby-sitters for newborns, since they are around the same size. Just a random, but cute, idea.


Hehe, I really like this idea. I think it also fits with what I had in mind for dridder culture in relation to size differences - its customary for smaller dridder species to serve or work for larger ones in various roles.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:33 pm

That's an interesting thread.
I agree that it could be roughly divided between egg-laying and non-egg-laying.

The thing that is the most tricky is the egg-laying type. Now I admit I'm actually unsure if a new-born naga would still be really human-sized or perhaps a little bigger. But the growth spurth is still very much here.

Basically the young naga would grwoth slowly at first, then at a point would experience that growth spurth that leave them at a near gigantic size over a rather short time. Then after the spurth they would continue to growth but much more slowly until they reach their adult size.

A size chart could be nice to do inded ^^
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:42 pm

I support this idea, not because it makes sense, but because its fun.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:47 pm

asaenvolk wrote:
I support this idea, not because it makes sense, but because its fun.
Which idea?

Also, about the chart, I guess a detail that would demand extra effort, if a chart is made at all, would be to put the baby predator next to its parent, so we can get an idea of how small it is compared to its mother.
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PostSubject: Re: Size of newborn giant predators   Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:54 pm

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