Taking economy on

Okay, we've dodged the economy for long enough. And with good reason- only Aethernavale seems to have watched Spice and Wolf.

As I haven't watched that anime either, it figures I'll have to make do with what I know from my Economy and Industrial Organization classes. However, since my economy classes were mainly about the way amortizing funds operate, interest rates, and the rest of the quatrimester we had industrial organization (Fun! Ergonomy 'n stuff, though it won't help us in case of zombie plague!), I'll accept all the help I can get.

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Let's begin by the beginning- Negav spans 90 square miles. Around Negav, we've got the Commons, and the surrounding area that the Eye doesn't cover. The Commons will probably be the only land where anyone can raise edible animals in miles around or grow fruit-bearing trees (at least, without the predators realizing you've got a lot of food and you aren't sharing).

Beyond the commons, you shouldn't grow anything edible- or at least immediately edible. Short crops would also be an advantage, tactically speaking, since they limit the amount of brush a 100 foot predator can hide in: you can see a critter the size of a building about as far as the fields span. Fairies can make use of them, but most crops burn really nicely.

So depending on the Eye's maximum GENERAL reach, we should consider making a simple calculation (pi multiplied by the difference of the square radiuses) to know just how much land does Negav have that it can devote to its own sustenance. Consider that Negav can be assumed to have a radius of 5,35 square miles, and think how much room do the walls leave.

Make the same calculation for Nekomura. What's the radius of its Eye? How far from the edge have they chosen to live? How much of its area has been devoted to cities? I assume a lot less, since they're very capable of living vertically.

Ignore fungi and other subterranean crops as a food source for now. Fungi are 99% water, air, and poison. Fungi have no nutritional value. The only thing fungi are good for is for feeding them to rich people so they don't live too long.

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Once we've decided on the area, we should decide on the species that are raised. Ignore the mines for now- all they mine are diamonds and ascarlin. The ascarlin's a strategic resource that should be as restricted as it could be, and these diamonds are practically relegated to abrasives (and maybe ritual material) in the ludicrous abundance of gemstones that characterizes Felarya.

An appropriate species to raise would be cows, horses or pigs- pigs are faster breeders, but only cows and horses have appropriate hides, not to mention the ability to perform as draft animals. If you guys feel like it, we can raise something more exotic, like yaks or bisons. Or if any of you feels like nominating one of your creations, well, go for it.

An appropriate species to grow would be... something that can be used both for textiles and for eating. Like cotton corn :S . In theory, we could use its fibers for paper too, but since paper takes just too much wood, I think it's best we leave the paper needs to importers. The amount of shit you got to dump for it just kills my wood.

Now, once we've done the calculations for just how much food and clothing we're capable of improvising with the species we've picked and the area we've determined, we'll have to calculate just how much food we're going to need.

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Food is the primary concern of any economy. If there's not enough food for everyone, the classes will shrink until there is. So far, we've got Negav as a 625.000 people economy (somewhere between half a million and one million- let's be conservative here). Let's assume an average of 3000 calories per person- some couch potatoes need only 2000, some people will eat 4000 while someone else eats 0, and some people will be eating 5000 a day while pumping irons out like health freaks. Then there's anime weeaboos, who are going to eat 10000 calories per meal.

We'll assume 3000 calories on average. No, I'm not going to calculate the caloric content of a tiny. Neither am I going to count tinies in this number- even if they outnumbered Negavians 10 to 1, they'd eat like they were just 600 people. An acceptable error.

We'll assume half of those calories were provided by proteins and carbohydrates, the other half will be fat.1500 kcal of the first would be 375 gr, of the second would be 166 gr. 541 gr total. Multiply by 750000. That's 405,5 tons of food a day, more or less. Let's go for 450 tons per day for best results- there might be less fat and more vitamins involved. 450 tons a day is 4150 tons a week is 22050 tons a month is 264050 tons a year.

The difference between that amount of food and the amount that can actually be farmed would have to be brought in from offworld. Matter of fact, I'd consider, depending on the radius of the eye's effects, that ALL of the food has to be brought in. And I don't mean from the forest. Whoever suggests hunting giant predators for food gets to be the first hunter.

Now if we're going to calculate the amount of food we can get from the commons around Negav and Nekomura... we ought first to calculate the amount of food per area unit. We'll assume magic and the good soil will do what otherwise would take US and genetic engineering to accomplish- nah, divide all values by two.

1 acre = 0.001562 square miles.

http://www.agronext.iastate.edu/corn/production/management/harvest/producing.html
Corn- 166 bushels per acre a year (Iowa's average in 2006).
1 bushel (corn, US) = 25,4011 kg.
1 bushel per acre a year = 25,4011 kg per acre = 16261 kg per square mile
166 bushels per acre a year = 2697 tons per square mile a year.
Except I haven't calculated how much of the corn is kernel and how much is just cob...

http://www.plantsciences.ucdavis.edu/uccerice/rice_statistics/rice%20statistics.html
Rice- 6847 pounds per acre a year (USA preliminary average in 2006)
1 pound per acre = 0,454 k g per acre = 290,63 kg per square mile
6847 pounds per acre a year = 1990101 kg/sqm = 1990 tons per square mile a year.
Odd, what am I doing wrong? A little help here? Rice's supposedly The One Grain to rule them all, it shouldn't be out-produced by maize corn.

http://www.nass.usda.gov/Newsroom/2010/01_12_2010.asp
Soybean- 44 bushels per acre a year (2009 US average)
1 soybean bushel = 27.1255 kg (13% moisture) = 23,6 kg
44 bushels per acre a year = 15108 bushels per square mile. = 664,78 tons per square mile a year.
Okay, that sounds reasonable enough.

http://www.agcensus.usda.gov/Publications/2002/Volume_1,_Chapter_1_US/st99_1_033_033.pdf
Wheat- 71.4 bushels per acre a year (2002 census of agriculture)
1 wheat bushel = 27,1255 kg (13,5% moisture) = 23,46 kg
71.4 bushels per acre a year = 45710 bushels per square mile = 1072 tons per square mile a year.
Okay, that sounds reasonable enough.

Now let's get on to animals.
http://beef.unl.edu/stories/200710050.shtml
So a bushel of corn includes 16 pounds of dry leaf and husk... that must be what I was missing. Still leaves corn as WAY too bountiful IMHO... well, it doesn't matter, I'll figure it out later. Anyway, 1000 pounds of ruminant grazes on 680 pounds a month.
Cows- gestation: 9 months. Reproductive adulthood: 14 months. Full size (for eating): 24 months. Max weight: 750 kg.
Horses- gestation: 11 months. Reproductive adulthood: Sometimes 18 months, not recommended to let them breed before 48 months. Full size: 72 months. Max weight: Depends on the breed. Can be up to 1000 kg.
Sheep- gestation: 5 months. Reproductive adulthood: 6 months (compromise). Full size: ??? Max weight: 130 kg (compromise)

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Okay, I think we can safely say that unless the radius of the eye extends for miles around and that we're talking about intensive rice farming or something equally productive, any farming whatsoever will be a token effort at best. It might instill some confidence in the dumber sector of the populace, but anyone who can do the math will realize it's not going to hold if the food ever stops coming in.

Alternatively, the farmable area (if any) could be dedicated to crops that aren't needed in bulk, maybe small groves or something the likes, stuff that you could use, but you don't really need a whole lot of. The Felaryan soil could help some of the less hardy crops survive easier than they do anywhere else, allowing Negav a share of the non-ascarlin multiuniversal commodity trade.


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The lack of farmable land, however, will leave Negav at the mercy of other worlds for its feeding purposes. Rocks and wood are about the only thing in Felarya you don't need to look hard for. Mountains close by = rocks, forest close by = wood. Building necessities = solved. Water's close to Negav, too.

Steel worries me, though. You aren't going too far without it. Felarya's swamped in gemstones, but nowhere are metalliferous ores described. They even have sulphur sources. Wouldn't be hard to assume metal comes in from overworlds, getting only heat treated in Felarya to make it reach its final structure. So Negav's going to be almost completely dependant on other worlds for food, steel, and probably any related material. How do we go from there?

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Well, from there, I believe that Negav should adopt the coin of their providers, and similar prices except for the risk surcharge in importing- and the costs to cover that.

I was taught that one should prepare to replace machines every five years, so we'd have to add the price of the machine divided by the number of trips every 5 years... multiplied by the number of times we were expecting to replace the machine every 5 years. So we'd need a few things about the economy that supplies Negav.

I'll come back once I've thought how to word the questions...

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Okay, seems like we'll have to work this top-down. If I Recall Correctly, Negav exports ascarlin and imports everything else. So let's see, a handful is enough to send an empire to war and 5000 are enough to buy a kingdom (assuming it was for sale). Let's make it so that Negav buys everything it needs for X ascarlin a month.

The value of X will be, at minimum, sufficient to handle the costs of buying all that stuff in another world, and the expenses of bringing it to Negav. Making X too high also runs a few risks- Negavians aren't known for being docile. 150% seems like a fair value.

Now, if 5000 ascarlin are enough to buy a kingdom that's for sale, and a kingdom may have up to 100 million people (the Middle Kingdom), 5000 ascarlin can probably feed 100 million people for a month (which is what it'll take you to conquer a kingdom for sale). 38 ascarlin can feed Negav for a month. So a minimum unit of ascarlin should be enough to buy food for 20.000 people for a whole month. That's 2.400.000 meals. For a simpler comparison, in Earth, make it, I don't know, 21,6 million dollars.

Let's now consider the expenses of the ship and stuff negligible in perspective of the cargo value, and let's add 2 ascarlin of non-edible material that just accumulates. That's 40 ASC, or 60 if you count the profit. Now let's see if we can get somewhere from there.

If all of the monthly basic imports in Negav are worth 40 ascarlin (or at least the food and steel are)... well, this led nowhere. We ought to have stopped at "that's 2.400.000 meals", because that's what we ought to be interested in.

If 50.000 skevol is 1 ascarlin, then 1 skevol is worth 48 meals.
We'll have to devaluate the skevol at least 4-fold, that way 1 platalis is worth a meal.
I'd rather devaluate it 12-fold, that way 4 platalis are a meal of some quality, 1 platalis is something that'll keep you alive, and maybe a full skevol is a feast.

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So let's make it skevols are 2,4 million to an ascarlin and platalis are twelve to a skevol. That way, a skevol will be worth a nice meal, for 1 skevol 8 you get a good meal, and 4 platalis get you through but you'll neither be full nor satisfied. Three square meals a day net you the prices currently in the wiki.

It could be interesting if we described those meals on the wiki page- what is there in a fairly good meal, and what for a good-good meal? What are poor meals made of?

Having this value set, we can start working on the value of other things by comparing them to meals. A 750 kg cow has 375 kg of meat, you get around 1651 half-pounds of meat. Half a pound of meat contains... round 1500 kcal and a fairly good supply of protein too: that's half of an average meal.

So you could sell a BIIG cow for the prime materials for 1651 meals. A full grown cow can be worth round 1200 skevols, thus. Let's assume that counts the hide too. Pigs are only good for eating (then again, nearly all of them is good eating), but their edible mass isn't gonna surpass 200 kg often. At least, it won't be pretty. 400 skevols seems fair, on average, for a pig- unless we're going to debate the merits of red meat against white meat or breeding times and other expenses.

Though come to think of it, ascarlin being worth 2400000 skevols means it'll buy 2000 cows or 6000 pigs... we could trade ascarlin in smaller pieces, why not. Maybe the representative unit of ascarlin is fingernail-sized, while the one that actually sees use with any frequency is tooth-sized (1/18 of the other, but actually worth somewhere between 1/20 and 1/60- you can make smaller pieces to form a bigger one, but not the other way around). Depends on how much a piece you can set in a ring should be worth- 100 cows or 100 pigs? Or maybe something more exotic, like 100 camels or 100 horses?

Okay now... dammit, this is hard. Everyone's going to need 90 monthly skevols just to eat, on average, so if a guy has three rooms to rent, bare minimum is 30 monthly. A service to add another level of awkward should be tailoring, now. Clothes will add SOME difficulties to the lifestyle costs. You can make them with hides, with fibers, with cotton, with wool... dunno about the price of those things, because I dunno how much hide can you skin off a cow. According to wikianswers, you can get 18 pairs of shoes off a normal cow's hide. 18 hides a month seems like a fair speed for a prolific cobbler... if a cow's hide will be worth 100 skevols (a fraction of its meat value), we'll have 18 pairs of shoes a month, we can assume 15 will get sold, 2 will get stocked for one reason or another, and 1 will be ruined. So distributing 100 skevols + 90 skevols between 15 people, the price tag for a pair of leather shoes is at least 6 skevols 8 platalis. Make it 8 skevols for good measure.

Let's make now industrial manufactures imported from Slaveland (we'll assume this was made somewhere the price of workforce is negligible: maybe Golemland?) available in Negav- so most of them will get just about any article of clothing for just about 5 skevols, while shirts, socks and underwear are even cheaper: maybe six platalis per set (those prices are calculated by assuming a skevol to be worth 9 dollars). In short, you'd get a full, relatively serviceable indoors outfit for 10 skevols if you know how to haggle it- and probably if you're in a second-hand market. This outfit would include a cheap shirt, a pair of cheap trunks (with hearts?) a pair of cheap pants, a pair of cheap socks, a cheap hoodie, and a couple cheap sneakers.

¿Are we going to have people in hoodies running around the streets?
¿Should mass produced cheap articles have flooded the lines of Negav's poorest population?

Search for answers to those questions and many more in our next issue!

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Come to think of it, there weren't hoodies in the industrial revolution. The current trend for the nearest industrial planet will probably determine what Negavian cheap clothes look like. It could be hoodies, or it could be... well, it could look like anything. It's not pretty to think that Negav's clothing trends are dictated by some other world, but you know what, but it makes more sense than importing cotton and making clothes there. Still, I've got no idea how much should their clothes be worth. I might have to roll a dice to set the price. So let's roll a dice.

Let's see, raising a cow needs... 24 months, and roughly 680x24 pounds of graze through its life, multiplied by 2 to account for its mother, which you will reutilize. 680x24x2=32640, and that means you need just under 32640 pounds of graze matter- we'll assume that the time a cow spends over 1000 pounds evens out the time it spends under that mass. So we'll need 16320 pounds of pasture a year for a cow, and alfalfa yields can be 4.80 tons per acre. If 2 cows need 7.409 tons, and an acre yields 4.80 tons, we need 1.543 acres to raise a beef cow. So just under 2000 pounds of meat for 2 years and 3 acres, extremely rough estimate... means a cow has a rough yield of 300 pounds per acre. In comparison, a 40 bushel harvest of 32-pound per bushel cotton will yield you 1280 pounds per acre. I could do tighter numbers, but I'd have to charge.

Now, then, cotton prices will be worth just under a third (to account for the extra work it represents) of cattle prices per pound. So if a pound of meat will be worth two skevols, for the same price you can get 6 pounds of cotton. That ought to be a nice rough price.

Assuming once you've weaved the cotton it's only 3 pounds, you can probably get a 2-pound cotton article for 3 skevols. You'll need one per month, probably, assuming one article represents either a pair of pants or an overcoat or something, while articles weighing less than that will probably be two for a skevol. Cheap shirts, socks, underwear... if available at all. I don't know the trends in Negav, or much about the frequency someone should have to go for clothes.

Anyway, 10 skevols a month for clothes is probably okay for an average person- let's assume a very good dividend there.

So far, the living expenses are 100 skevols a month. 90 for food, 10 for clothes.

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Food, clothes, we can probably start working on shelter. We'll make another thick and gross assumption now. We'll assume that if you're renting a room, the guy who owns that room is living about as well as you are- by renting five rooms.

Let 100 be our currently calculated expenses. Let X be what you're paying. The cost of life in Negav seems to be 100 + X. The guy makes 5X a month. 100 + X = 5X ; 100 = 4X. X = 25.

25 skevols a month for housing. Does that sound about fair? Would be fair too to assume it costs 25 skevols to maintain a house too- so that this guy, who makes 125 skevols a month but has a house to maintain if he wants to keep making 125 skevols a month spends his surplus 25 skevols a month simply to keep things running well enough to keep hosting people. That means our living expenses have rose to 125 skevols a month.

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Now, I don't know much about civil rights. However, the right to raise a child should be restricted de facto in Negav- nobody wants the population to rise too much. We know that 125 skevols a month are enough for a guy to live comfortably. It'd be fair to raise the living expenses to 200 skevols- that way a guy can either live single and really well off, or save money for several years, preparing for the right time, when he finds a receptive woman to lay eggs inside her while she sleeps.

I don't know what to do with children from here. I'm not sure how tough should it be for a married couple to make do through, or how many years of saving money should be necessary, whether Negav's living expenses should also account for stuff like college tuition (or maybe a shotgun so they can go be adventurers?).

We've got base living expenses of 125 skevols a month for an average person, it's not ridiculous to think of 50 skevols a month for a poor person (the majority), and we should probably draw the line somewhere farther for a well-off person.

Now we just need to factor in the number of children (or freeloaders) we want the economy to allow. One? Or none? Because if it's anything more than one they're probably screwing themselves over- Negav really can't afford to let its population flourish.

So... this is a Negavian economical discussion? The wording confuses me a bit.

Wow, that's some serious research...
Good job!

Pendragon wrote:

So... this is a Negavian economical discussion? The wording confuses me a bit.

For now I'm brainstorming and ranting and... well, let's be frank, I'm probably raving. In general I don't do this in public, I prefer just showing everyone the finished product, but in this case, it'll be better if everyone interested can follow something until they think of something themselves.

Oh, alright. That clears things up quite a bit.

For the sake of clarity, here's what I've concluded so far.

1- We should devaluate the skevol to 2,4 million skevols = 1 ascarlin to be consistent with the meals per day prices.
2- Manmade shoes should be worth something at least 6 skevols 80 skedas.
3- Mass-produced cheap trash will flood Negav unless we find a way to keep it away.
4- Still haven't factored in housing and clothing prices- not to mention raising a family. Don't take everything I say at face value, I'm wrong right now and I'll stay that way for a while.

Well that's very interesting so far

you manage to think about so many different aspects ^^

Whoa, in retrospect I didn't realize how pricey ascarlin was. I thought it was like "oh a small piece must be worth a couple thousand skevols". But SEVERAL MILLION?

I need to read up more. That stuff is like the child of diamonds and sex if it's worth so much.

I think an idea for the trash and agriculture could be determined with buildings in negav. The buildings could each grow food, the first floor could be like the business floor, but the second through 5th floors could be like wheat or something, the 6th floor could be something different, and so on. The power for the facilities of these buildings could be stationed in the foundation/basement underneath. Some kind of generator where waste and "rubbish" goes. There's certainly ways to turn human waste into something that can be used for power, and with magical assistance, farming and power is easier.

Buildings in Negav are built extraordinarily tall, but these buildings would have to be wide as well. There wont be enough to completely sustain the entire city on it's own, but certainly a lot could be accounted for.

edit: lemme post a little video here regarding it, so you have a better idea of what I'm talking about.

http://felarya.com/wiki/index.php?title=Currency

Okay, time to do it like a boss! The first thing we need to change is ascarlin's value.

Most commonly, ascarlin is worked into pieces around the size of a tooth. Short of grinding it to dust, that's the most practical size for a piece of this marvelous material to be worked with. One such piece can be set about a ring or another such piece of jewelry, and maintain the properties that it's known for so well. A single piece of ascarlin that size is worth, when properly cut, 120 thousand skevols.

To fraction ascarlin beneath that value, it must be ground into a very fine dust- the weight equivalent to one such piece is worth 50 thousand skevols, and it can be divided as desired into smaller quantities. This powdered form is rarely used as coinage- faldong gems generally handle that niche well enough.

But when ascarlin is mentioned, most people actually think of larger presentations- around the size of a fingernail. Those fingernail-sized pieces are rarely used in crafting, as not many magical creations can truly make use of that much power; instead, they're used as larger currency. Each of those pieces weighs 13 times what a smaller piece, but they're actually worth 20 times more if properly cut. This is less because of their potential and more because of their aesthetical value.

There are larger crystals, but they're considered worthless until actually chipped down to pieces of a size and worth that are reasonable enough to be traded.

Credits to Pendragon and MrNobody13 for helping reprice ascarlin.

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Okay, now the clothes. As it is right now, we can do so much better.

Casual Wear- 10 SK
Work Clothes- 25 SK
Traveling Attire- 80 SK
Adventuring Outfit- 2 FG

If one doesn't care much about appearance, it's possible to drape oneself with a functional attire for just ten skevols by browsing around a market for a while. In theory, one could go down as far as 5 skevols- but they'd have to look in the bargain bin and would find most likely only used clothes- sometimes, very used. It's also a heavenly mercy if one can find clothes that match...

Work clothes are a little more demanding, and command a higher price as they must often be tailored to the specific individual, using materials that aren't always the cheapest available. A traveling attire is supposed to be durable, functional and comfortable, good enough for riding, for hiking, for sailing, and for just about anything.

Adventuring outfits run the gamut from skimpy arcane-embroidered robes inlaid with gemstones that amplify spells of a particular type to ventilated and armored kevlar vests to dull black skintight masked jumpers with flippers for feet and metal tanks on the back, sharing the characteristic of sacrificing versatility to focus their functionality on a single aspect (such as lightning spells, firefights, or scuba diving). Negavians jokingly refer to one so outfitted as "dressed to kill".

Credits to both /Fish/ and Shady_Knight for their help with outfits.

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The meals are fine as they are. However, we need to describe them in a little more detail, guys. We need more about foodstuffs.

-Poor meals are generally bland and present little variation, being generally starch-based soups with a few vegetables thrown in for vitamins and minerals, and maybe beans for good measure. They can be tasty, nutritive, and are served piping hot, but as a general rule, they're not very filling. Meat is, as a rule, absent from those meals. Sometimes, this meal is just an orange instead. One skevol a day should do to keep a single person fed in this manner.

-Average meals vary quite widely, but one thing they've got in common is that they're filling. This effect is often accomplished through a generous ration of vegetables, which may be either tubers or grain of some sort. Those meals are often cooked and served hot, regularly including meat- unless the customer so desires. A skevol a meal is often enough.

-Good meals are definitely nutritive and filling. The presence of spices and ingredients from all over the universe creates a variety of possible designs that Negav couldn't ever expect to deplete; as a general rule, one can look forward to meat of some sort in a generous portion, complete with a ration of carbohydrates, and a sweet dessert more often than not. It costs, on average, 5 skevols to eat 3 square meals of this type.

-Luxury meals do not priorize being nutritive, and are not filling, by design. Luxury meals aren't so much meals as long series of treats, involving delicate materials in teasingly small portions, such as shrimps in sauce, dry fruit biscuits held together by hard caramel threads, or small sections of bread crust dipped in very finely ground and preserved meat. Anyone trying to sate their hunger here is wasting 10 perfectly good skevols.

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It would be best to add the following conversion...

1 skevol = 10 credits

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Finally, we could do with adding the following housing options.

Rent can also be paid for the month. While this is a good option, most landholders would sooner not make any long-term arrangements with people who have no references- specially if they have money and they can be charged by the day.
-Good: 150 skevols.
-Average: 25 skevols.
-Poor: 10 skevols.

-Luxury: 100 skevols a night.
Luxury rooms are ostentatiously furnished with only the best of the best, and probably have more services than anyone can reasonably need. They'll also go out of their way for the comfort of their customers so that they better enjoy their stay. For obvious reasons, they can't be rented for the month.

I imagine, it would take a lot of effort to work up enough savings to go out into the jungle. Unless born into wealth, the average adventurer probably spends a few months saving up for supplies to go out into the forests.

As for food, I know Japanese and Chinese food is made to somehow have a ton of food that's not particularly filling, but still tasty and good for you. I imagine luxury meals are made in a similar fashion just so that the person who can afford it, can show off just how much food they can buy. Possible cultural development here.

As for weapons, I imagine it would be a bit more complicated, but the small knives and kukris and such will probably be anywhere from 200 to 400 skevols, and a sword that's good will price at around 600 to 1000 skevols. (I've seen some swords go more expensive in dollars though.) I'm not too proficient with the currency calculations so I post it in skevols

Axes and hammers probably wont be sold that much without enchantments, and various enchantments probably would add hundreds of skevols depending on the enchantment used. Though that's just my idea of course, blurting it out as it comes to me. The more expensive weapons are probably haggled and bartered a lot. I imagine bartering is very encouraged.

This all seems good. The prices for food, ascarlin, and general equipment look in order.

However, the big question remains: how does one acquire work in Negav? What job markets would be open to one who is looking for a decent paycheck of skevols?

My guess is that the biggest enterprises would be building construction, mining (aslarlin mining or underground mining to expand Negav's lower levels), hydroponics or basic boot camp for creating up and coming recruits to either:

1. Keep the Negav walls safe
2. Act as hired hands for outward travel into the forests
3. General populace maintenance (a cop on every street)

Quote :

I imagine, it would take a lot of effort to work up enough savings to go out into the jungle. Unless born into wealth, the average adventurer probably spends a few months saving up for supplies to go out into the forests.

Keep in mind, most adventurers are coming in from offworld. I don't imagine gate-travel is cheap either.

In all liklihood, most adventuring parties are probably sponsored by a rich patron who will recieve a portion of thier loot/the money they make for selling their loot. There's always a chance the adventurers may not return, but if they do, you may have some nice money to be made off the loot. Its a risk/reward thing. Keep in mind, not everyone is going to be raiding the temples for epic, suicidally dangerous stuff. Felarya-exclusive herbs, rare minerals, and more would all be of intrest to an offworlder. It ain't all about the shinies in a world as large and mysterious as Felarya.

Quote :

As for weapons, I imagine it would be a bit more complicated, but the small knives and kukris and such will probably be anywhere from 200 to 400 skevols, and a sword that's good will price at around 600 to 1000 skevols. (I've seen some swords go more expensive in dollars though.) I'm not too proficient with the currency calculations so I post it in skevols

Keep in mind, on our world swords are a novelty item made for people to collect. Most swords people buy aren't even fit for use in any kind of fight, they are purely for looks. Real, battle-ready swords tend to have their prices hiked up because only a small demographic buys them. In a world where swords, knives, axes and such are not only widely used for self-defense, but as survival tools, the prices would be considerably less than on Earth. That isn't even factoring in market competition between dozens of merchants in Negav trying to undercut eachother.

Most adventurers are going to bring in their gear from offworld though, since they're already springing the cash for all their gear and gate travel anyway.

Quote :

However, the big question remains: how does one acquire work in Negav? What job markets would be open to one who is looking for a decent paycheck of skevols?

My guess is that the biggest enterprises would be building construction, mining (aslarlin mining or underground mining to expand Negav's lower levels), hydroponics or basic boot camp for creating up and coming recruits to either:

1. Keep the Negav walls safe
2. Act as hired hands for outward travel into the forests
3. General populace maintenance (a cop on every street)

Let's seee....

Keep in mind, the Vishmitals handle the walls, so I doubt they're hiring people left and right, given how much they prefer to be left alone.

I have my own ideas for potential employment in Negav

1: Security: The low and middle district are full of all kinds of shops, inns, taverns and other businesses. Only the richest ones will be able to afford to hire mercenaries to act as their security, so there should be a large market for people with police/military/combat experience to get hired on as security for these businesses.

2: General help: As stated above, there are a TON of small businesses within the middle and low districts, and they are going to need employees.

3: Janitor/Street-cleaner/etc: Negav is a big city, and all those people are going to be making big messes that need to be cleaned up.

4: Police/Militia/etc: Pretty much what Pen said up there. They're going to be looking for recruits from time to time.

5: Mining: Like Pen said. Mining is a dangerous, hard job, but there are always people who will do it, and you will always need to replace miners who die/get seriously injured.

6: Medicine: This is going to be important. People are going to have accidents, or be injured in a fight, or be injured in a crime. So having people trained in medicine is going to be a good thing to have.

Really, there's a massive amount of job possibilities in Negav. Its a big, bustling city and it takes a lot of people to keep those running smoothly.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

As for food, I know Japanese and Chinese food is made to somehow have a ton of food that's not particularly filling, but still tasty and good for you. I imagine luxury meals are made in a similar fashion just so that the person who can afford it, can show off just how much food they can buy. Possible cultural development here.

Possible, but food nuts are a lot rarer than gun nuts on the web, probably because rulebooks for roleplaying games skim over food and go into detail about guns. Can't blame them- cooking is usually safer than gun handling, no need for an ersatz experience after all. There's also cookbooks.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

As for weapons, I imagine it would be a bit more complicated, but the small knives and kukris and such will probably be anywhere from 200 to 400 skevols, and a sword that's good will price at around 600 to 1000 skevols. (I've seen some swords go more expensive in dollars though.) I'm not too proficient with the currency calculations so I post it in skevols

1 skevol = 10 credits. Treat those as dollar-surrogates.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

Axes and hammers probably wont be sold that much without enchantments, and various enchantments probably would add hundreds of skevols depending on the enchantment used. Though that's just my idea of course, blurting it out as it comes to me. The more expensive weapons are probably haggled and bartered a lot. I imagine bartering is very encouraged.

Make it so. Haggling seems even more encouraged, though.

Pendragon wrote:

However, the big question remains: how does one acquire work in Negav? What job markets would be open to one who is looking for a decent paycheck of skevols?

Archmage_Bael wrote:

I imagine, it would take a lot of effort to work up enough savings to go out into the jungle. Unless born into wealth, the average adventurer probably spends a few months saving up for supplies to go out into the forests.

Pendragon wrote:

My guess is that the biggest enterprises would be building construction, mining (aslarlin mining or underground mining to expand Negav's lower levels), hydroponics or basic boot camp for creating up and coming recruits.

While there ought to be no shortage of miners, I'm skeptical about hydroponics and vertical farming. I don't deny they are a good idea, but I've got no idea if that's the sort of thing we all wanna see in Negav. Maybe in vishmital enclaves, but most of Negav is to be a medieval city, not an arco far as I know. Not saying hydroponics make your city an arco, but you know what I mean.

As for jobs, I don't know if the Maggios have the sort of infrastructure to train such a number of people. Building business would probably be steady, as Negav's full of people with varying degrees of ignorance about everything: I'm sure nothing lasts like it used to once it leaves the maker's hands.

Myself, I thought Negav would have a large self-employed artisan population. Sure, there's the mass-produced cheap stuff out there that costs you 10 skevols to outfit yourself, but if your life's on it, you prolly will want your combat boots made by a real cobbler recommended through 100 years of supplying successful and approving mercs, same with most of your clothes. Tailors and stuff would service a very thin slice of the population, not everyone needs a good embroidering after all, but they'd get paid well (and treated poorly). Melee weapons aren't likely to be mass-produced, and as for making a bow or crossbow in a factory... forget it. Mass production of magical items also sounds like a needless oxymoron.

The service area would be the widest slice of the pie. I mean, Negav prolly sees tons of tourists, and needs lots of guides, and there's going to be a lot of stablishments that have one or two people specifically to cater to you.

In any case, here's the monthly incomes I've got in mind. This should supplement Cliff's reply a little.

-Unskilled Peon: 40-60 SK (and be grateful for it!)
-Smiler, waitress or otherwise: 100-125 SK (We want our ribs to draw them in, not scare them away)
-Cashier: 125-150 SK (Oh, you can count too? That's wonderful!)
-Trained Laborer: 100-150 SK (Depending on your work AND employer)
-Mercenary, in the city: 150-400 SK (Gotta be generous here. If they sell out, they lose their job- but you might lose something irreplaceable. Also accounts for skill and danger)
-Mercenary, outside the walls: 200+ SK (No upper limit)
-Healer: 200-300 SK (Marry a doctor, darling)
-Self-employed artisan: Mean average 175 SK (Exactly as much as they dare request)
-Merchant: Mean average 200 SK (They dare request more)
-Isolon Fist Member: 250 SK (Attractive, but greedier people are best kept arm's length away)
-Teacher/Instructor: 150-250 SK (Depending on how many people you teach and what)

Actually, the prices aren't hiked for battle ready swords because not a lot of people buy them - but because they're not made as often anymore, they're more rare. The marines get a sword though to wear with their dress uniform.
Anyway, if an item was in demand, the price would be higher, but it's not with swords. They take a while to make, and in a world like Negav you're not going to have massive industrial complexes that make industrialized swords (I know for a fact, several countries do that, and in the past, Japan made industrialized katanas) - it'd a more hands on thing, and you'd spend several months putting the weapon together.

Special swords would be a commission and high priced for the trouble.

As for those prices, I imagine that would be paid per week.

Specialty jobs would be insanely high though too. Sell-out authors would probably make tons of skevols. I imagine distributing books work similarly. No doubt Negav has printing presses
I'm not just talking mages either. People who specialize in fixing hard-to-get machines or goods would probably make a ton of money per item. The people who manage workers in a mine would probably be paid a bunch.

Various scientists, scholars, mages, and special advisors to companies and such would also make a lot. However, I have a difficult time putting a number on it. It should be enough to be able to afford a nice place though. Ironically the most lucrative job should be weapon smiths and the miners who get paid. I bet they send prisoners out there.

Quote :

Actually, the prices aren't hiked for battle ready swords because not a lot of people buy them - but because they're not made as often anymore, they're more rare

Quote :

Anyway, if an item was in demand, the price would be higher

Contradiction. If an item is in high demand, its price drops. See also: Any major electronics if the past 20 years.

People charge more for swords because so few people buy them, and most people that do are collectors that will pay excessive amounts for them.

Quote :

They take a while to make, and in a world like Negav you're not going to have massive industrial complexes that make industrialized swords (I know for a fact, several countries do that, and in the past, Japan made industrialized katanas) - it'd a more hands on thing, and you'd spend several months putting the weapon together.

Not every sword is a katana. They took a year to make because the metal used to make them extremely rare, and the process is much more complicated and skill-intesive than normal blacksmithing. That's why katanas are so famous for their quality. They are basically the -Insert super rare, expensive car- of swords.

Your standard broadsword or something, that can be done in a few days to a week. Its just heating up a piece of metal, hammering it out and sharpening it. Its not going to last decades and decades, but it'll get the job done. The katana is a rare case, since they were made for a small, exclusive elite warrior-class. Most swords (and other bladed weapons) were made simply and had nowhere near the longevity. They had to churn them out by the hundreds to keep their armies supplied.

The toughest part would be getting the metals, which would need to be bought from the mines or from offworld. But as long as you had a steady income, getting new raw materials shouldn't be tough.

The prices are lower for them because of the competitors, not the buyers.

It's like Circuit City and Best Buy. When they were both in business, the prices were pretty low, but now Best Buy sells just about everything, and they charge rip-off prices because there's no one else to compete with them.

Sword making isn't like the movies where you can just melt the metal, dip it in water and voila!

Steps:

The First step is Forging
A bar of the desired metal or combination of metals is heated in a forge and then it is hammered into shape.(The shape of a sword) This hammering process can take a long time and it is called drawing out the sword. The sword is worked on in sections (usually around 6 inches in length) and repeatedly hammered and heated until it comes into the desired shape. This process is repeated many times and the sword is often heated then allowed to cool without hammering. This is required by the metal to keep the desired properties of strength and flexibility. Once this step is completed the sword is in the proper shape but the properties of the metal make it very brittle and something has to be done to give flexibility to it.

Step Two: Annealing
Annealing softens the sword and makes it easy to grind into shape. The sword is now heated and then allowed to cool very slowly. Often it is wrapped in an insulating material to slow down this cooling. It can take as long as 24 hours and this annealing process makes the sword soft and easy to grind.

Step Three:
the blacksmith uses a grinder to work out the edge and point of the sword. This would also be when any engraving is added. This is not a completed sword yet. It is still much too soft so it must be hardened.

Step Four: Hardening
Now the sword is heated to a very high temperature and then placed into a quenching tank. (This is what we always see in the movies). This quenching allows it to cool quickly and evenly which will harden the metal. After this hardening the sword is brittle and something must be done to make it strong yet flexible.

Step Five: Tempering
Again the blade is heated and quenched. But now the heating is at a much lower temperature than was used at the hardening. This heating/quenching cycle may be repeated several times. This tempering allows the blade to be strong but not brittle. This is one stage where the skill and experience of the swordsmith is invaluable. It takes a trained hand and eye to understand the properties of the metal. It will have a certain amount of flexibility yet still retain its sharp edge. Now the sword is ready for completion.

Step Six: Completion
The sword blade itself is now complete. Now the additional parts will be added such as the pommel the guard and the hilt.

For the past five hundred years the only way to learn the art of swordmaking was to find a skilled blacksmith or swordsmith that was willing to take you on as an apprentice. Because of the specialized skills and tools, and the skill that is required this tradition remains the best way to do it today.
Before you invest lots of time in money in equipment and materials you should find a master that is willing to teach you the basics of the art. You won't have to devote your life to endless hours of hammering against an anvil and with a little perseverance, a little patience and some practice you will be able to make some decent swords that you can be proud of.

During WW2, I believe Japanese swords that were made industrially were much lower quality, but could be done in a short period of time. Unfortunately I don't know enough about this area to really give any definite information. I just know its faster and crappier.

My point though, is that you can have a rare item that few people buy, and have it cheap or expensive depending on the people buying it, and the people selling it. Swords would still be expensive, they'd have to be for blacksmiths to make any sort of living whatsoever. Even in Felarya.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

The prices are lower for them because of the competitors, not the buyers.
It's like Circuit City and Best Buy. When they were both in business, the prices were pretty low, but now Best Buy sells just about everything, and they charge rip-off prices because there's no one else to compete with them.
Sword making isn't like the movies where you can just melt the metal, dip it in water and voila!

Neither is circuitry.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

My point though, is that you can have a rare item that few people buy, and have it cheap or expensive depending on the people buying it, and the people selling it. Swords would still be expensive, they'd have to be for blacksmiths to make any sort of living whatsoever. Even in Felarya.

It also depends on the possibilities of the supply. Circuits can be made through X-ray photolitography and other nanotechnological techniques, otherwise they wouldn't be cheap as they are right now. If circuits had to be made by drawing out an iron bar, annealing, grinding the edge, sharpening, and then tempering, you can bet they would be more expensive.

High demand will create lower prices assuming they're aiming for a demographic of lower resources and the supply so allows, Cliff. If adventurers are a well-funded bunch and swords are for adventurers alone, then swords will of course be expensive. If we're assuming every Negavian wants a sword, blacksmiths will probably sell them as cheap as they can, assuming they can crank out as many as they want. If they can only crank out so many a month, that'll raise the prices somewhat (to whatever price will allow for the lifestyle they aim for).

However, if they fully service the demand they might leave themselves with no work afterwards- so sometimes, the supply stays small and so do the prices, simply to make sure they're still in business after a while. Also, undercutting each other is unnecessary unless the demand is fully serviced. So let's blame less the undercutting and more the haggling for reduced prices, shall we?

Let's also consider the fact that blacksmiths that make only swords wouldn't be so common. Most of them would probably work with nails, hammers, horseshoes, pots, ploughs, metal fences, knives, meat cleavers, pipes, that sort of stuff that you know you'll always need.

We probably could look forward to a moderate supply with reasonabl(y high)e prices for metal combat implements, allowing most craftsmen to live quite comfortably for whatever time they choose not to spend in the forge. This, of course, would require moderating the supply- and that sounds a bit too complex. We could have tons of sword-makers undercutting each other, of course- I'm not sure. Depends on the craftsmen's ability to organize themselves for their own benefit, and how much of a priority is it for them to get their money now. Seems we've got three possibilities here.

-Swords are expensive. Only a few are made every month.
-Plenty of smiths make plenty of weapons because they're in high demand. And they're cheap so they all get sold.
-There are plenty of smiths but they're too busy making productive stuff to fully service the demand for swords. Swords are in limited supply, and expensive, but easily haggled.