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Shady Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Transportation in Negav   Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:08 pm

The gangplank would only be good from boarding areas, which would work only for the equivalent of firetrucks and police cars.  For an ambulance or a delivery truck, you have to loading a patient or a cargo, and then unloading it.  For an ambulance, the patient is very likely to be away from any boarding and are often in no condition to be moved, so they must land to pick up the patient.  Similarly, stores, particularly in the Lower Tier, do not operate from tall buildings, so even if the gangplank was for the drivers, it wouldn't matter, as it would have to land anyway.

Since you mentioned mages, let me remind you that not everyone in Negav, or Felarya for that matter, is a magic user.  In fact, all things considered, mages would form only a small portion of the total population, I think somewhere around 20%.  It's not about not using my imagination, it's about thinking.  Think about it, when it comes to loading a wounded in an ambulance or cargo in a truck, which is easier to ultimately?  Going through intensive training to learn how to use magic and then learn levitation spells to lift a person or cargo several feet off and precisely maneuver it in a holding area, or being decently strong to lift someone onto a stretcher and then load that stretcher in the ambulance that's parked to the person's level, or in the case of a delivery, setting the cargo inside the truck, which again, is at the same level as the person?

There's a reason something like bows were replaced by crossbows.  Yes, bows were good weapons, but it took a long time to train good archers, whereas the crossbow was much easier to use and it didn't take as long to train people how to use it.  In the instance of those ships, it's much more practical to make sure that you don't need to go to the University of Magic, where new mages are formed in Negav (not counting magic users who came from another world), because then their formation to load people in an ambulance and deliver cargo is much simpler and takes less time.  It's more accessible.  Magic isn't something you can learn overnight.  Like any profession, it's going to take you a long, long time before you become good at it, and for easy jobs like the two I enumerated, which are just part of a bigger role, it makes more sense that you don't have to go through so much just to accomplish something so simple.

It's obvious to me that you didn't pay a whole lot of attention about the first page of this thread or look in the wiki.  The "levitation system" is really a bunch of Eidoron rocks outfitted at the bottom of a barge.  In essence, the rocks are lifting the ships off the ground in the same vein as you can lift a box off the ground too.  That system can't be applied to cargo and patients, the former because you can't control how the rocks can move on your own, and in the latter, you have to get the patient to the hospital ASAP, made all the worse by the previous problem.  The reason I shot down your tractor beam idea is because of simple safety protocol.  You have to assume the worst in jobs like that, it's simply how things go.  If you can find a potential flaw, like the tractor beam failing mid-lifting, you must find an alternative to ensure the patients' safety, otherwise you have a crappy ambulance crafted by careless people.  That's how life goes.

While I'm on the subject of the Eidoron Rocks, have you ever thought why these ships are emergency vehicles in the first place?  Eidoron Rocks are most common in the Mist Ocean, an area that's more hazardous than your typical Felaryan jungle.  As it's where you're most likely find them, it's natural that you'd want to look for them there, as you don't know where to find another worthwhile depot.  But since the Mist Ocean is so dangerous, you can't put mining operations between it and there without suffering a ton of casualties, which you want to avoid.  As such, because those Eidoron Rocks are, in essence, a luxury and difficult to obtain, it only makes sense that they are used in the construction of emergency vehicles, as they cannot get enough on a consistent basis to mass produce the equivalent of flying cars.

Once again, it's not that I'm not using my imagination.  The fact that I'm behind flying magitech barges as emergency vehicles is proof of that.  However, I think, and because I think, I can see flaws in ideas and highlight these flaws as I wish this concept to look and feel well thought out.
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PostSubject: Re: Transportation in Negav   Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:33 pm

Alright, alright, let's try and compromise here.

While I agree Eidoron rocks ought to be hard to bring, I don't think that exactly 100% of the rocks that are brought will be used for public services [I mean, if that was the case, someone would just bring more, and sell to privates if they can't find public buyers]. Now who'd design the private ships, no idea.

In order to avoid both problems with docking and with gangplanks... what'cha folk think of rappelling? Take a rope, tie it firmly to the ship, and just climb down the rope. In order to return, I was thinking of a simple counterweight and retracting wheel mechanism. One tug on it disengages the latch, and lets the counterweight pull you up.

From all you said, maybe an airship ambulance would be a bad idea. So why not just make an air... operating room? Those are ships, they're not constrained by the same dimensional requirements as ambulances (and 'copters) in the real world. You could just fit the entire operating room in there, and reduce transport times for those injured in half (Ambulance would just have to get there, without facing ANY traffic problems whatsoever).

As for how to pull up cargo, I'd recommend cranes. There are cranes in boats in real life, not to mention in docks (also in real life). Hoists, windlasses, winches, the works, those have existed for millenia. Open the ship from the bottom, lower the crane, secure the cargo, you know the deal. It'd work for lifting people with broken bones too, though that one would need to raise and lower a platform that was carefully stabilized.

That make sense?

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PostSubject: Re: Transportation in Negav   Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:08 pm

Eidoron rocks can't be moved. That's why I came up with "Lydronite" ages ago.

Well okay, they're not "impossible" to move, but I get the impression of, to quote the wiki-

"Eidoron rocks won't float away on their own though, and you need considerable force to move one from its spot. The cyclonic winds raging in the Mist ocean sometimes manage to make them move slowly, like schools of big, grey, lazy fish."

-kind of implies that moving enough to actually use, and then trying to manufacture it on top of all that would be a big nightmare. Even if you did move it, how big of a vehicle would you use? how much force would it need, how little of it would you actually be able to move, and how long would it take? Eidoron is basically an immobile floating rock that can't be accessed. Any idea that uses it which would require some sort of transportation or manufacturing is already not that well thought-out.

...Hence like I said. Why I came up with "Lydronite". It's not canon of course, but it relates to my shatterock caldera idea a while back...
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PostSubject: Re: Transportation in Negav   Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:24 pm

Not quite, you have overlooked other factors. The rope makes the most sense, as helicopter ambulances use them, but what if the patient is inside a building? I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, in fact it would be foolish if they didn't take that into consideration, but think about it for a while, why didn't helicopter ambulances didn't completely replace earthbound ones? There has to be a reason.

However, you mentioned an airship acting as an operating room. Operating rooms need a lot of equipment and room for what they do, as such, these ships would be huge. Not to mention, it will require rooms for recovery and more equipment to keep the patient in stable condition, and a staff of nurses for that very job. Yes, healing magic exists, though how powerful it usually is is up for debate, as too powerful and there's no incentive to being careful, yes, the soil helps in healing, but you still take a long time to recover from a surgery because your body lost a lot things of essential to function properly, such as blood, water and nutrients, and since these ships are in the air, they don't get the luxury of the soil. It's once again something I mentioned when I criticized Karbo for making the ships all purpose, at a certain point, you must compromise, which makes its utility less effective. An ambulance doubling as a hospital would need so much that at that point, it's better off just to get the patient to an actual hospital.

I talked to Karbo and there are hospitals in Negav in the form of healing guilds. Would be nice if that was mention in the wiki, but that's only one of many missing information that leads us debating how to patch things, as we are doing this very moment.

As for cranes, here's the problem: docks have a lot of equipment dedicated to the maintenance and handling of ships, all specialized equipment. Docks are also huge, so they have a lot of spaces for the cranes, and those cranes are used to load cargo that cannot be loaded with regular human power, another reason why the ships are so big. Where would you fit the cranes on what appears to be wooden ships, without making them very massive, and what kind of cargo would it carry to need a crane and a huge ship to transport? The areas where shop are would have a lot of pedestrian too, so unless you leave big open spots for the cargo to drop, you risk the crane. Not to mention, opening from the bottom would be a terrible idea because that's where the Eidoron Rocks, what is lifting the ship off the ground and keeping them suspended in the air in the first place, are located. If it opened from the bottom, the ship would most likely plummet to the ground.

I'm not saying your suggestions are completely terrible and should be discarded entirely. No, far from it. However, these would be applied for different kinds of ships, for the most part. The trick I suggest is to keep things simple and use things you know as a frame of reference, and there's probably nothing you know better than things that happen in real life. For example, the ambulance. Think how an ambulance in real life is typically structured and how it operates. Now imagine that same ambulance, only with the ability to defy gravity, a different outwardly appearance, and possibly equipment, but still achieves the same functions. Why couldn't it have something like a siren to warn pedestrians move back for it to land?

The truck, same idea, use real trucks as frames of references, and then replicate their function and why they're effective at what they do. Small truck ships wouldn't need cranes because they carry light loads that can easily be handled with regular human powers, and they would be small enough to land near shops, probably for those in the lower tiers, without having to worry about pedestrians, especially if there's an area specifically designed for these small trucks to land or they have something like a siren to tell pedestrians to stay away. Huge truck ships built specifically for heavy loads that can't be handled with regular human power would probably use cranes or an equivalent to handled that cargo. Those ships would probably come to Negav very rarely, though.

Once again, keep it simple and use a real life equivalent to help you keep it simple. It doesn't need to be complicated to be good, and in my opinion, trying too hard to be complicated or different from real life is more of a hindrance than help.
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PostSubject: Re: Transportation in Negav   Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:34 pm

Shady Knight wrote:
Not quite, you have overlooked other factors.  The rope makes the most sense, as helicopter ambulances use them, but what if the patient is inside a building?  I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, in fact it would be foolish if they didn't take that into consideration, but think about it for a while, why didn't helicopter ambulances didn't completely replace earthbound ones?  There has to be a reason.
Helicopters are expensive, for starters, pretty maintenance-heavy too. As for inside a building, that's the same as with land ambulances: have someone take them out of the building and then hoist 'em up.

Shady Knight wrote:
However, you mentioned an airship acting as an operating room.  Operating rooms need a lot of equipment and room for what they do, as such, these ships would be huge.  Not to mention, it will require rooms for recovery and more equipment to keep the patient in stable condition, and a staff of nurses for that very job.  Yes, healing magic exists, though how powerful it usually is is up for debate, as too powerful and there's no incentive to being careful, yes, the soil helps in healing, but you still take a long time to recover from a surgery because your body lost a lot things of essential to function properly, such as blood, water and nutrients, and since these ships are in the air, they don't get the luxury of the soil.  It's once again something I mentioned when I criticized Karbo for making the ships all purpose, at a certain point, you must compromise, which makes its utility less effective.  An ambulance doubling as a hospital would need so much that at that point, it's better off just to get the patient to an actual hospital.
Ships have room; it is recommended to have 800 square feet, which would mean 20x40 is ok. That's not exactly an intermodal container. For actual ambulatory operating rooms, 400 feet can be made do with, as long as you have 4' clearance from all walls.
http://dch.georgia.gov/sites/dch.georgia.gov/files/imported/vgn/images/portal/cit_1210/58/57/158183631What_size_Operating_Room_do_you_need.pdf

And you wouldn't need to double the ambulance as a hospital, just as an operating room [Though considering that there's no disease, that may effectively turn the operating room into the entire hospital]. Given the patient wouldn't be put in the dirt for surgery (unless you like infections), being away from the dirt for an hour or two isn't a huge drawback.

Shady Knight wrote:
As for cranes, here's the problem: docks have a lot of equipment dedicated to the maintenance and handling of ships, all specialized equipment.  Docks are also huge, so they have a lot of spaces for the cranes, and those cranes are used to load cargo that cannot be loaded with regular human power, another reason why the ships are so big.  Where would you fit the cranes on what appears to be wooden ships, without making them very massive, and what kind of cargo would it carry to need a crane and a huge ship to transport?  The areas where shop are would have a lot of pedestrian too, so unless you leave big open spots for the cargo to drop, you risk the crane.  Not to mention, opening from the bottom would be a terrible idea because that's where the Eidoron Rocks, what is lifting the ship off the ground and keeping them suspended in the air in the first place, are located.  If it opened from the bottom, the ship would most likely plummet to the ground.
That's one hilarious thought there, Shady, and I approve of ships that would plummet in case of being opened... but once we're done laughing at the prototype fail, we'd just not put eidoron rocks on the part of the hull that provides lift, leaving a window on the bottom for the crane to peek out of.

I'm not suggesting cranes because the loads are too massive, I'm suggesting cranes because I was under the impression that all loading would have to be necessarily vertical since the ships wouldn't be able to land everywhere they would need to drop off and pick up things. Was thinking of muscle-powered cranes, with two guys manning a wheel and a third telling 'em "go on, go on, steady...". Something on the vicinity of 500-1000 pounds per shop drop.

Shady Knight wrote:
I'm not saying your suggestions are completely terrible and should be discarded entirely.  No, far from it.  However, these would be applied for different kinds of ships, for the most part.  The trick I suggest is to keep things simple and use things you know as a frame of reference, and there's probably nothing you know better than things that happen in real life.  For example, the ambulance.  Think how an ambulance in real life is typically structured and how it operates.  Now imagine that same ambulance, only with the ability to defy gravity, a different outwardly appearance, and possibly equipment, but still achieves the same functions.  Why couldn't it have something like a siren to warn pedestrians move back for it to land?
Yeah, we could do that too, but wasn't you that said that the roads were winding and narrow, too much for anything to really land?

Shady Knight wrote:
The truck, same idea, use real trucks as frames of references, and then replicate their function and why they're effective at what they do.  Small truck ships wouldn't need cranes because they carry light loads that can easily be handled with regular human powers, and they would be small enough to land near shops, probably for those in the lower tiers, without having to worry about pedestrians, especially if there's an area specifically designed for these small trucks to land or they have something like a siren to tell pedestrians to stay away.  Huge truck ships built specifically for heavy loads that can't be handled with regular human power would probably use cranes or an equivalent to handled that cargo.  Those ships would probably come to Negav very rarely, though.
Hmm... Would you approve of small ponds or stuff for the ships to land in? Water seems to me like the easiest way to land a ship, given the shape and size of their hulls. As for whether they'd come to Negav, I always figured the heavy loads between universes were handled by semi-trailer. Trucks can come, drop off their trailer, and then leave right back through the gate.

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PostSubject: Re: Transportation in Negav   Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:17 pm

In all fairness to the big truck ships, putting their cargos in the city itself would be absolutely stupid.

But let's review your points. First, the ambulance. Yes, what you said is possible. However, if possible to land the ship, wouldn't it also be faster and simpler to land the ship and then to load the patient(s) like real ambulances?

Just a brief mention of diseases, the wiki is worded in a way that suggests that diseases are not a complete impossibility, but given this is a city with apparently good hygiene, you'd have to try very hard to decline your health to the point you can realistically catch something. But that's the subject at hand. The thing is that, technically speaking, ambulances are already a sort of a transport/operation room all rolled up into one, though in a very loose sense. The equipment there is to give preliminary care until they reach a hospital dedicated to treating whatever ails the patient(s). Your idea is a little sound, but you didn't mention what they do to the patient(s) after they are done operating, so forgive for attempting to patch that missing information.

That could be good, but wouldn't you need to compensate for that window with more Eidoron Rocks just to make sure it stays afloat, which again, could be very arduous. Also, like with the ambulance, if it is possible to land the ship, then wouldn't it be more simple to land it and deliver cargo like with real trucks? I don't remember where I said that the streets would be narrow and winding, and if I said so recently, I think I was referring to Cremona Maze, which is a poor district. But that is a moot point because we have no idea how wide the streets are.

At this point, we could argue against each other some more, but I'd rather not. I think at this point you see how there are many ways this idea could be interpreted and we won't reach a true conclusion until Karbo decides it's time to announce how those ships work and how they are used, which I hope will happen sometime this decade. I also think that, as a whole, too much information is lacking to make something concrete out of these ideas. How wide are Negav's ships? How hard is it to obtain and use Eidoron Rocks from the Mist Ocean? How big are those ships? Does Negav have an equivalent to hospitals? I could keep going but I won't.

This idea as a whole has potential, but Negav's entry needs to have more information added and urgently before we can even start coming up with an idea about transportation in that city. This is just something that will have to be put on hold for now until we get a better idea of how the city operate before it's even brought up in my opinion.
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