Tempestarii

Sean Okotami wrote:

I always pictured Coldfire as being an ice attack at the Absolute Zero.

"Absolute Zero" is a relative term; there is absolutely nothing special about Absolute Zero. It's more of a theoretical concept than a specified point of temperature; scientists actually hold meetings to agree on an international definition for Absolute Zero, and it's changed a few times. The term gets overused way too much because it's something that sounds catchy, but it's really an arbitrary point; we can't even cool any substance on Earth to the point that all energy within it remains motionless, so it's entirely a theoretical concept.

Sean Okotami wrote:

Hence why it would harm even Ice Elementals, nothing can survive at Absolute Zero temperature.

Look up the Tardigrade (more commonly known as the Water Bear). Not only are they a living organism, they can survive at 1 degree above Absolute Zero (it's impossible to reach Absolute Zero, so we'll never know if they can survive that) and in a total vacuum.

Sean Okotami wrote:

What about forming icicles in your hands? There aren't ice in front of you until you create it out of thin air.

Okay... and? You can either do it, in which case there are dozens of possible explanations of how you can accomplish it; or you can't, in which case the question is irrelevant. If you're wanting to know ways it can be done, three off the top of my head are:

1) A connection to an Elemental Plane of Ice, allowing you to "channel" the Ice Element and create it no matter where you are (even in the middle of a desert).

2) The ability to control temperature. If you lower the temperature of the air around your hands enough, you're eventually going to condense and freeze the moisture in the air into ice. You might not be able to do anything with it while it's still water vapor, but once it becomes solid, it becomes part of your element.

3) The magic does it itself, even if it's a matter of transmuting raw magical energy into elemental energy. All you do is cast the "Icicle Spell" and the magic takes care of the rest.

It all depends on how the system of magic you're using operates; without more details, I can only offer generic guesses.

Sean Okotami wrote:

Gwada, did you read the little understanding I made so we can both agrees on one hand?

I'm not agree with you, ice is a state of water, what you call ice magic It's a manipulation of heat and cold whih don't depend on the element.

You can freeze someone by using fire, earth, air but not necessary water

The verity you are talking are true in certain condition but not all the time.

What Quantum tries to tell you all the explanation is not an absolute verity and I agree with him for that.

It doesn't exist absolute verity

Sean Okotami wrote:

Look, let's come to an understanding alright? Hydromancers can have limited control over ice, but are much better at using water. Likewise, cryomancers can have limited control over water, but are much better at using ice. Is that okay with you?

Oi. No, it's not. Stop thinking in absolutes. There is no rigidly defined "Hydromancer" class that all Water elementalists fall into, or "Cryomancer" class that all Ice elementalists fall into. There just isn't any such thing, and trying to force ALL elementalists to operate strictly by one set of rules is counter productive.

Cryomancers can be considered a type of Ice Elementalist. Hydromancers can be considered a type of Water Elementalist. This does not mean that "Ice Elementalist" automatically equals "Cryomancer", or that "Water Elementalist" equates to "Hydromancer". That is fallacious logic.

You can have two Water Elementalists sitting in a bar in Negav, and one of them can control water and ice, while the other one can't even exert the tiniest control over ice at all. It's a matter of how their systems of magic work, and has nothing to do with whether or not they're Hydromancers or Cryomancers. They might not even use those terms; Elementalist A might be an Aqua Mage, while Elementalist B might be a River Shaman.

Your paradigm for elemental magic is only valid for those that use or exist within that system; and it just doesn't apply to those who exist outside of it, or use another system of magic. That's why you can't force it onto everything like a sort of global template; there's just too many things that work differently for it to apply to everything. It is not "wrong" for your characters, but it also might not be "right" for other characters.

Do you see what we mean?

I just said, if we are to avoid cryomancers and hydromancers to be carbon copies of each other, they can learn the other school of magic, but can't master it.

Sean Okotami wrote:

I just said, if we are to avoid cryomancers and hydromancers to be carbon copies of each other, they can learn the other school of magic, but can't master it.

It will depend on the system they use and their point of view.

The cryomancers and the hydromancers in their respective point of view are different but for a neutral view in clear someone who are not a cryomancers nor a hydromancers they are the same because they all use water manipulation but in a different way

I think maybe I should return to working on the magic thread. It seems to be a bit overdue for an update, and maybe some additional clarifying.

Why can't we say learning to control water and learning to control ice can't be taught by both schools and if you could only learn one because of something, you'd have to choose between one or the other? Will that make everyone happy?

Sean Okotami wrote:

Why can't we say learning to control water and learning to control ice can't be taught by both schools and if you could only learn one because of something, you'd have to choose between one or the other? Will that make everyone happy?

No, because you're still kind of off-base. Neither gwada nor I are saying elemental magic can't work that way; we're just trying to get you to understand that not all elemental magic works that way. So far, it doesn't seem like you're making that distinction.

Look at it this way... say you want to develop your own system of elemental magic for your stories. Under that particular system, you have Pyromancers, Cryomancers, Aeromancers, Hydromancers, etc.

You could make it so that spellcasters of a particular school can learn Minor, Lesser, Greater, or Ultimate spells of that school if they focus solely on their own element. Or, they can diversify and learn spells from two different schools, but if they do that, they have to split their efforts. So a Pyromancer who wants to dabble in Aeromancy might only be able to learn Minor, Lesser, and Greater fire spells, while gaining the ability to learn Minor air spells in addition.

An elementalist using this system of magic could even learn Minor and Lesser spells from two seperate schools if they split their efforts evenly (Aeromancy and Hydromancy, for instance), but they'll never be able to progress into the highest levels of power in each school because it requires much more focus. You could even say that it's easier for them to learn spells of a compatible school, and difficult or impossible to learn spells from an opposing school.

Now, this is just an example to make a point. All mages under this system of magic are elementalists... however, not all elementalists are forced to use this system of magic. Someone from another world is going to have their own systems of magic, that might work nothing at all like this one. Both systems are equally valid for their users, but not for one another. This is why you can NOT say absolutely that water elementalists can or can not manipulate ice; because there are no absolute rules by which ALL forms of water elemental magic operate. It varies by the user, and the system of magic involved.

I really hope that does a better job of explaining it...

I quote gwada:

Quote :

It's a necessity to separate them into two different school

Fine! I see what you mean, but the system you proposed is similar to mine, but mine allows to master all nine Elements, even though it takes over a century and a half, minimum to do this, because if I didn't, my OC would be too damn weak and useless.

BUT! If we are to make Elements an Elementalist can learn to use, I make the Elements, that way we're even.

Sean Okotami wrote:

I quote gwada:

Quote :

It's a necessity to separate them into two different school

The problem with quoting people out of context is that it changes the meaning of what they really said.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

It's a necessity to separate them into two different school, because someone who controls water can control ice and someone who controls ice can control water. They are no incompatibilities between then.

See?

Sean Okotami wrote:

Fine! I see what you mean, but the system you proposed is similar to mine, but mine allows to master all nine Elements, even though it takes over a century and a half, minimum to do this, because if I didn't, my OC would be too damn weak and useless.

Okay, that's fine. I have no problem with that, although I disagree with the "too damn weak and useless" part. There's plenty of single-element using creatures and spellcasters that get along just fine and are quite powerful opponents, but whatever works for you.

Sean Okotami wrote:

BUT! If we are to make Elements an Elementalist can learn to use, I make the Elements, that way we're even.

... I get the feeling you're still missing the point, but sure. Go ahead, knock yourself out.

Let's settle this once and for all: Ice Elemental magic attack = cold based attack, because Ice is often associated with cold.

And by weak, Sean has 9 Elements. If he had to spread it to all nine in Minor, Lesser, Greater, Ultimate category, none of his Element would be able to use Minor, so he'd be useless.

Sean Okotami wrote:

Let's settle this once and for all: Ice Elemental magic attack = cold based attack, because Ice is often associated with cold.

We're already starting off on the wrong foot here. Look, let's try this a different way; make a new thread about elemental magic, and we'll work on the design aspects from there. This thread is starting to get cluttered with discussion that has little to do with the original idea.

Sean Okotami wrote:

And by weak, Sean has 9 Elements. If he had to spread it to all nine in Minor, Lesser, Greater, Ultimate category, none of his Element would be able to use Minor, so he'd be useless.

That was only a hypothetical example of the way a certain system of elemental magic might work. Not the way all elemental magic works, or even the way Sean's elemental magic works. Please pay special attention to the bold and italicized words when you read my post, what I mean should be very clear.

You seem to have the intent in your mind to define the way ALL forms of elemental magic operate as an absolute. You can not do that, so you really need to let it go. Instead, you ought to focus on designing a specific system of elemental magic that you can use in your stories, and other people can apply to their own stories if they like; no one should be forced to use your definition of elemental magic.

A well-designed fictional construct (like a system of magic, or a plane, or subzone on Felarya) should be 1) Mostly internally consistent, 2) allow for endless possibilities, and 3) Not really rule anything out (exceptions to the "rule" are acknowledged as possible, and sometimes explained in a sensible manner). I can help you with these aspects, but you really have to let go of the idea that you're going to create some grand overriding system of elements that everything in the universe must adhere to; that just isn't feasible.

Ok Sean, you quote me but you don't quote the context.

You said ice and water are separate I told it's not true because ice is a state of water

Someone who control water cand control ice, here we were talking about the elments of the elemental magic.

Quantum add many interesting point I share and I'm agree.

The separation of ice and water you want to do, it's not based on pure manipulation of elements but an elements and a propertie.

Someone who manipulate ice as you say will manipulate the cold it can create a cold water (ice) a cold wind, a cold earth and a cold fire. It's a manipulation of heat or temperature and pressure. The caster doesn't depend on a element but only the manipulation of heat and pressure.

Someone who manipulate water will always control water in all its different states, vapor, liquid and ice but no matter but the base of his power is water. He needs water to make his magic work. He can do everything like heal, cure poison, create a barrier or a icicle etc... but he will always need water in order his power works. The water is the raw material for his magic.

The source is different


By example let's take Vivian and Rin:

Vivian can manipulate water and give it different properties, create illusion, clone, wall, or turn it in ice.

Rin live in the cold region of Frost speak she can create icicle or ice breath as powerfull as a blizzard etc... All her ability will be in relation with the property of her area.

Vivian can control the water inside her body or dinking water to fall her temperature of her body contrary to Rin will freeze her own body, without using water, she just change the ambient temperature or her own temperature.

The ice is a state of water and the common symbol of the cold

Okay, I made the thread of Elemental magic, and I hope it satisfies even you.

ok I have a fairly outrageous idea and this is an if what if you could modify the runes so that a certain tempestarii could manipulate the body to some extent but not to a truly entirely different species and make it so regardless of element they can pass on if not copy there powers to there children

zelda31 wrote:

ok I have a fairly outrageous idea and this is an if what if you could modify the runes so that a certain tempestarii could manipulate the body to some extent but not to a truly entirely different species and make it so regardless of element they can pass on if not copy there powers to there children

The runes can't be altered once they're set; any attempt at doing so will destroy the Tempestarii. If it was that easy, they wouldn't be trapped in a human form to begin with. Once a Tempestarii is created, the binding runes become part of its very being; they can't be removed or altered without changing what the Tempestarii actually is, and the runes are what hold the Tempestarii to a stable physical existence.

For that idea to even work, you would have to use a completely different set of runes while preparing the body, that allow the elemental to alter its physical form, as well as change the body from human to "part-human, part-elemental" so that the powers are heriditary. If you do that, you're no longer creating a Tempestarii, because that's not what a Tempestarii is.

In addition, the runes and rituals involved are very specific, and very unforgiving; you are trying to harness and "tame" a primal force of nature. People who have the knowledge and experience required to perform such a dangerous undertaking aren't going to leave anything to chance; changing the rituals and runes to allow the elemental even the slightest ability to alter its body increases the possibility of something going wrong or the elemental being able to escape its "prison".

What you described may very well be possible; however, it is not possible for Tempestarii. They are not natural creatures, and not a true species, so there just isn't any chance of their offspring inheriting their abilities. Half-human/half-Tempestarii hybrids are not possible because physically, a Tempestarii is human; his or her children would inherit the genes of their parent's human body, not the elemental spirit residing within the body. Also, all but the most humanized Tempestarii would be likely to be notoriously poor parents.

ok I meant before the ritual is perform not after also if done right the body shape should remain human I am talking about limited modification not complete modification also the runes should be passed on regardless whether it is genetic or not I am talking about copying the elemental powers of the parent or parents into an unborn child you jumped to a random conclusion without fully reliesing what I was typeing though I admit I did leave out important information to this matter but I believe if done correctly it could improve and remove some serious design flaws on the tempestarii

zelda31 wrote:

ok I meant before the ritual is perform not after also if done right the body shape should remain human I am talking about limited modification not complete modification also the runes should be passed on regardless whether it is genetic or not

Wrong. The way you think Tempestarii work is not the way they work. I recommend going back and reading it again; you should be able to see the flaw in your logic.

zelda31 wrote:

I am talking about copying the elemental powers of the parent or parents into an unborn child you jumped to a random conclusion without fully reliesing what I was typeing though I admit I did leave out important information to this matter

First off, I didn't "jump to a random conclusion" ; I drew a conclusion based off of what you typed. You admit you "left out important information", so how is it my fault if you didn't say what you meant to say properly? I do fully realize what you asked, and what your intention is. I also gave you an answer that included both situations, pre-ritual and post-ritual, since I wasn't sure which one you meant. Maybe you just skimmed over it, which might explain why you thought I didn't know what you were talking about.

Regarding the question of "Can you modify the runes and ritual to allow a Tempestarii to have greater control of his or her body, and/or pass its powers on to its children." The answers to both are "No", with the caveat that it's theoretically possible to do the first, but so uncertain and suicidal that nobody would actually try to do it.

Creating a Tempestarii is an extremely difficult process to pull off as it is; messing with the well-established method is almost certain to result in failure. Not just "Whoops, we blew it. Guess we have to try again!" failure; we're talking "dying in a fire being slowly burned alive" failure, or other elemental equivalents. These aren't just any generic magical runes; these are the most powerful kind of Runes of Elemental Binding possible. Ancient, powerful magic. Once the ritual has been properly performed, they actually become part of the Tempestarii's very being; there's no way to remove them without destroying the entire being, even with something like a "Wish" spell. You screw with the bindings in any way, or even mess them up a little before or during the ritual, and they're no longer able to properly bind the elemental. Which means that it's free to slaughter you and everybody else involved if it feels like it. So, "possible in theory, but in execution it's never going to happen".

As for the matter of the powers being inherited, nope. It just doesn't work that way; you seem to be under the impression that the runes or ritual give the Tempestarii some sort of power. They don't; their sole purpose is to bind the elemental spirit in the place of a human soul, something that just is not natural. That is it. They can't transfer elemental powers to a Tempestarii's children, because that is not what they do, and they can't be altered to do so. A Tempestarii's powers come from the elemental spirit residing in it. A human is a human being, not an elemental spirit trapped inside of a human body; a Tempestarii's children are also human beings, and not elemental spirits trapped inside of a human body. The only way for a Tempestarii's children to gain elemental powers is through some form of magic, or actually becoming Tempestarii the same way their parents did... which would result in them not being the same person, since their human soul would leave the body and be replaced by a completely different spirit.

zelda31 wrote:

but I believe if done correctly it could improve and remove some serious design flaws on the tempestarii

Those "serious design flaws" are intentional, and part of their design. The are there deliberately, both for in-story purposes and real world context. I have no intention of Tempestarii being able to alter their bodies into elementals, or passing their powers along to their children, because it has no place in the concept I created. Those ideas may very well work fantastically with another creature, but they are not suitable for what a Tempestarii "is".

ok I have to make myself very clear on this I read everything on this particular forum before putting the idea out also I understand everything you typed previously but what I am saying is that through decades if not centuries of research to make the correct runes for such a task I am talking about allowing the elemental spirit some lee way not enough to make the human body part elemental just enough so the body can handle the power better and to tap into a higher potential of it's elemental power beside anyone making a tempestarii is taking a risk regardless in a sense the elemental you are binding to might not be mad enough to kill you once it relies it's powers aren't as restricted as a normal tempestarii is also by infusing the energy of the runes and the elemental spirit to the genetic structure of the host body the elemental power can be past because this might make a new elemental spirit not a new human spirit it's not impossible to pull off just extremely difficult

zelda31 wrote:

what I am saying is that through decades if not centuries of research to make the correct runes for such a task I am talking about allowing the elemental spirit some lee way not enough to make the human body part elemental just enough so the body can handle the power better and to tap into a higher potential of it's elemental power

You still don't seem to understand; this is ancient, epic-level magic. Nobody involved in the creation of these rituals is still alive on Felarya. The civilization responsible for developing them turned to dust thousands of years ago. You don't just mess with ancient magic on a whim, it's not just a matter of making minor changes to the runes- doing so changes the whole magic inherent to the ritual. Mages who have studied these rituals for decades or centuries know enough to follow the instructions and get the proper result, when they're skilled and powerful enough to pull it off; trying to change that in any way moves from a certain result to certain disaster.

In addition, allowing the elemental to tap into a higher amount of its power is simply not desireable, for a number of reasons. The more powerful it is, the more difficult it is to control, and Tempestarii can barely be controlled as it is. You have to actually subdue the elemental during the ritual, which is a tough task even with it at reduced power; allowing it to exert more of its power is going to make it more likely that it will break free of the bindings during the ritual. Certain disaster.

zelda31 wrote:

beside anyone making a tempestarii is taking a risk regardless in a sense

Agreed; that element of risk is part of the concept.

zelda31 wrote:

the elemental you are binding to might not be mad enough to kill you once it relies it's powers aren't as restricted as a normal tempestarii is

If I beat you up and chain you to a wall, it's not going to somehow make it okay if I give you a few more inches to move your arms and legs. Tempestarii are unnatural beings, and Elementals see them as abominations; they were never meant to exist in that form, and forcibly binding an elemental to a human form against its will is going to make it mad enough to kill you regardless. Guaranteed. Reducing its power enough so that it can't immediately crush/drown/immolate/electrocute/aspyxiate you and having something to hold over it is a good way to increase your chances of survival, though.

zelda31 wrote:

also by infusing the energy of the runes and the elemental spirit to the genetic structure of the host body the elemental power can be past because this might make a new elemental spirit not a new human spirit it's not impossible to pull off just extremely difficult

Not possible; what you are describing is some creature other than a Tempestarii. There is no direct connection between the elemental spirit and the human body it resides in; that is the purpose of the runes, to restrain the spirit to the human body in the place of a soul, and make the body "his" or "hers". There is no connection between the genetic structure of the host body and the elemental spirit's powers, and there won't be; that is just not part of the Tempestarii concept. What you are describing is more of a human/elemental hybrid; Tempestarii only qualify as that on a spiritual level, not a physical one.

Tempestarii's sound really cool, reading this thread though makes me wonder why some people are having a hard time fully understand it though o.O The concept seems simple enough to understand to me. An elemental binded down in to a dead body - but being the new spirit in the body, not making any physical changes that would make it natural in any way.

nightgolem wrote:

Tempestarii's sound really cool, reading this thread though makes me wonder why some people are having a hard time fully understand it though o.O

*shrug* I've wondered why myself; my best guess is that they're reading without really comprehending. Who knows. Thanks, though. I'm glad you like it.

nightgolem wrote:

The concept seems simple enough to understand to me. An elemental binded down in to a dead body - but being the new spirit in the body, not making any physical changes that would make it natural in any way.

Exactly! Well, a "body recently dead enough to be revived", but yeah, you pretty much have it right.

I read again the concept of the Tempestariis, it remembers the origin of the blood elf paladin in World of Warcraft and the paladin in the horde.

At the origin the paladin is a knight who receive the holy light from the blessing of the priest. Their power is a gift from a holy entity the paladin blood elves are different. If a normal paladin receive a power from a deity, the blood elves paladin take this power for themselves. They catch a creature of light the naaru and draw his power to gives to their paladin.

This kind of concept was used a again by the Amani Troll were they decide to choose 4 of their warriors to give them the powers of their four gods.

In all this case they are kind of avatar, in clear they still have their soul or there are two souls in one body.

In the Tempestariis case it's a soul transfer, this kick the soul of the original human to seal and force a spirit to live inside a body. This is a kind of ressurection but this kind of system have many flaws 1)due to the fact the body is not made for that and can decades. 2)This kind of people are mentally unstable and does not support their forced resurrection. 3) They have nowhere to go, because they are not human and they are not spirit.

If they meet a spiritual guide, a priest, an angel or a psychopomp the only thing they will find logic is to destroy that. Because it's an insult to the system of life and death. The demons will find of them interesting.

The fact the child of a tempestriis is a normal human because a tempestrii is a noraml human at the base and even if the soul is different he is still a human very powerfull but human. It's not a kind of fusion between an elemental and a human but a elemental possessing a body

Their flaws show there is a strong gap between theory and practice

say you will change the rune: you need the original theory, use the same system of magic it was used, and after that you need to experiment so you need an important reserve of humans and I doubt they will be happy to be guinea pigs for your rexperience. It's look easy in condition you are very patient because it can take many hour, days, years, decades and millenia before you hope to find the good rune, the good ritual, the good spirit and the good humans.

You will do many interesting discoveries, and when you will find the thing you search you will discover it has others flaws. You will try to correct them and it will take you more time than before. It can be endless