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Ok back from that little break. I hope it did people good, it certainly did to me.

So first thing first: I got an apology to do for reacting so strongly to that letter.
Some things I said were just not warranted. I'm sorry for that and I shouldn't have let anger get the better of me.
Having said that, for the past few months I have been dealing a lot with what I call "politics" among the community and it seriously wore me off. And seeing politics slipped in that letter as well made me flip. It's my opinion some people among who devised it have some apologies to offer as well.. I'm not going to demand it though, as I'm pretty tired and want to move on, but, until then it will stay unfinished business as far as I'm concerned. Also next time, please don't use a petition again, I don't like those at all ^^;

Ok now on the content. My opinion about the letter in general hasn't really changed very much. I still disagree on many of the issues raised, but let's see all this points by points, in a cold, detached manner.

- The group : At this point , I'm pretty sure the DA group will remain the way it is now, after those recent changes in how it works.
It means there is no longer a vote system : every Felarya-related deviations will be automatically accepted, save for a very few exceptions. The group will become a sort of giant directory for people to browse and find stories, pictures, bios, sprites and whatnot.
Honnestly, it should have been made long ago. I personnaly don't think it will make the level of sumbmissions dropping as some mentionned, and it will definitely clean some of the poison that has been plaguing the community. Because let's be realistic, a general voting system will always be seriously flawed and comes with so much troubles waiting to happens that I feel pretty silly for having implemented it in the first place. It's now a thing of the past that we can, hopefully, quickly forget.

The gallery organization is up to debate, though. Some suggested the non-Felarya-related vore and giantess gallery to be removed and I'm considering that. The name "featured" gallery also seems to irk some, but people must realize it's by no mean meaning that art is better than writting or anything like that. No it's just that, among a crapload of others flaws and problems, the DA groups don' allow the main gallery to be renamed. Otherwise I would have named it "drawings"


- Interraction with the community : I disagree with this one. On DA there is not a lot of people being friendly to new authors and making them feel welcome. So I wish to continue to do so, as this is just my way of doing things. Moreover I disagree that I will always put niceties in my comments. If for example a story is pointless, I wil definitely make it know.

-Favoritism : This point has been debated on that other thread and is moot as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather not come back on that.

-Conflict avoidance : That's one point I can definitely agree on, even though I don't like it very much. I need to be firmer indeed.

-Perceived conflict : I disagree with that one as well. People must abide by the rules of the forum when they subscribe to it and the rules are clear : be polite and civil.
The tough, forceful, and often hostile atmosphere that has ben going on in the forum is not something I'm going to accept as normal, and the fact is it has been driving many people away. Some people want the forum to represent all the community at large, but for that to happens there is some serious efforts to do.

-The wiki :
Quite frankly, the current disclaimer looks just fine to me. I'm willing to look into the creative commons license though, such as the CC BY
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/

I'm definitely not in favor however, for having people retaining ownership claim on certain ideas ( besides characters ).
For one, I'm very wary of bad faith actors. Such as the cases : " no you can't use my idea because I don't like you" or " You can't use my idea in that way that would arrange your story because I don't like you" . When there is loopholes, some people will make use of it, for a variety of petty reasons. Or there is also the case of people leaving, having their ideas removed - say a certain species - and then everything that has been built on it collapsing as a result, like characters based on that species that must be rewritten entirely and so...
This is just not manageable at all. Not to mention that, having ideas that are under one license, the others under another etc.. looks like an absolute legal mine-field to me, and because it worked very well until now, I don't see any reasons why it should be changed now.
The bottom line is really that people must agree to the disclaimer when they post an idea ( that's why I *always* ask first ). If you don't agree with it, if you feel that being credited isn't enough and that you should remain in control of the ideas ; then I prefer you don't post the idea at all in the first place... Sorry if that sounds blunt but that's how it is. If some people who have contributed have some second thoughts in that regards, please say it now here or by PM, so we can settle that matter down.
I also don't want to be answerable to anybody about what I put in the wiki. It has always been this way and I don't want it to change either. I'm very firm on that.

Lastly, about the wiki closure. well it will still remains closed for a little while. Not only do I really need this pause personnaly, in order to take the time to rewrite some things here and there,and to be sure the above points are definitely cleared, but I also worry seriously that the wiki has become an obsession and popularity contest for many... This is a very bad thing.
As I see it, when you are contributing to the wiki, you must do it out of enjoyement, and because you are wanting to help... not because the very fact of getting into the wiki is the objective in itself. The wiki is a database for people to find informations about Felarya, it's not a hall of fame...
I'm also worried that for some, Felarya has beome too much of a serious business, leaving little place for fun anymore. So yeah, let's take a little pause on that people, take it slow on the coming days, and reflect and re-evaluate things.

So I guess the bottom line of all this is we have group galleries up to discussion. I have made a blog entry for that : http://felarya.deviantart.com/blog/38423849/

So does that mean that you're still rather tired? On another note, about the Featured, I would split it into "Line art", "Colored", and I guess "Comics", since some like Kiki draw comics a bit more often than a simple, big picture.

Welcome back ^^. I hope the break was able to alleviate the stress over the recent disputes.

welcome back karbo. i hope you enjoyed your break.

Thank you, yes it helped a lot ^^

Glad to hear things have finally calmed down, was starting to get really worried here


Regarding ownership, while I do agree that ideas such as areas or animals should be free of use to anyone, I believe that those that got characters canonized should at least retain SOME ownership. If anything just to decide what the character in question can or cannot do. Having your character being practically butchered (wether literally or personality-wise) wihtout you having a say in the matter would be infuriating

oh yeah sorry if I wasn't clear.
Since the beginning, characters are an entirely different matter and are fully owned by their creator, unless specified otherwise. That fact remains the same.

I hope you were able to relieve a bit of stress from all the drama earlier.

It's good to see you back.

Good to see you back.

--

As for the wiki, I was looking through it and I had an idea to relieve tension as far as character canonization and creation goes.

I noticed that there is no real template for character creation - some have multiple sections, some have none and most are sort of a mix and match of various sections.

Maybe in the "Character Guide" post on the forum we could write up a "character template guide"? Detailing what should go into a character bio (as opposed to just how to not make a bad one).

Besides easing tensions within the community, it might make things a bit easier for newbies, if they have a guideline to follow.

--

(Not as serious, but still related to the wiki, I've always noticed that some pages, mainly the lists and mainly fauna, look sort of like... big walls of text. I realize that people have started drawing pictures of fauna as lately. Maybe we could get some sort of these pictures on the wiki to help make the big text pages look nicer? Just a thought.)

And a hearty welcome back from me. Take as many time-offs as you like, but please... don't ever leave forever.

Good to see the worst-case scenario hasn't played out.

I'm hesitant to speak on the behalf of everyone involved in the letter, but as someone who was at least present at its formation, I would like to say that I didn't see any venom or hidden agendas being brought up. I think this is a genuine case of good intention, bad execution on our part. Mistakes were made, and later on, tempers were lost. I myself started to get a little close to the edge, which really wouldn't have helped us at all.

The one thing I must put out there, though, is that I'm not in favor of removing the voting system entirely. I see the reasoning behind it, but frankly, this leaves the group extremely vulnerable to plagiarists and trolls that plague DA. Not to mention that, at the risk of sounding uncharacteristically fascist, I was one of the people pushing for the inclusion of the quality-control clauses in the letter. I'm not against the inclusion of sketches and rougher art in the group... I just wasn't behind the idea of putting it ALL on the front page. It's like in a store: you put your best stuff in the front window to draw people in.

I know, it sounds asinine. It sounds unfair to less-talented artists. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who can't draw for shit, and whose writing is pretty mediocre. I think it's not fair to the artists who pour heart and soul into their work, and who have spent years honing their skills, to be placed on the same level as someone who sketches a pic in five minutes. I know everyone has to start somewhere, so when the best artists are acknowledged for their skill, it gives beginning artists something to strive for. To place them all on the same level and still expect them to succeed, despite the lack of motivation... well, let's just say I'm not a big fan of communism.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

I know, it sounds asinine. It sounds unfair to less-talented artists.

Funny how you speak of being "fair" to everyone when you were at least TOLD of the petition.

Oh don't start complaining about that again. ><
I don't think that at this stage being or not being told about the letter is really a argument in comparison to the ideas given.
(the idea of the letter was to start dialogue, most of the community would have been informed in a way or another if things turned differently)
If you have to say something, be constructive, don't start attacking others

Pendragon wrote:

ZionAtriedes wrote:

I know, it sounds asinine. It sounds unfair to less-talented artists.

Funny how you speak of being "fair" to everyone when you were at least TOLD of the petition.

Okay, we get it. I don't want to fan the flames but we've heard this all before over and over. This was Karbo's thread for saying he's back again.

Take the complaints elsewhere.

Jætte_Troll wrote:

Take the complaints elsewhere.

And where would "elsewhere" be? I've been verbally attacked any other place I could go, before I even had a chance to say anything.

Excuuuuuse me.

I'm not trying to start flames or anything. It's just that many of you aren't in a position to cry about others being unfair.

Yo just chill. if you got negativity on you, don't express it at all (ever) in a thread such as this. I'm not a fan of these retorts for that reason (and anybody else that's similar. Infact ignore what he said if u have a remark to fight back or obligate on, or just as easilyPM discuss)

And bon retour grand monsieur Big K

Easy for you to say when half the damn people on that petition don't have YOU blocked from communicating with them.

Seriously, I wasn't even connected to the stupid thing and now it's like a game of "pin the blame on Pendragon".

You pricks have ALOT of nerve to talk down to me after that.

Pendragon wrote:

Easy for you to say when half the damn people on that petition don't have YOU blocked from communicating with them.

Seriously, I wasn't even connected to the stupid thing and now it's like a game of "pin the blame on Pendragon".

You pricks have ALOT of nerve to talk down to me after that.

No no NO. We're not going throught this again. If you have to complain to someone do it in private instead of restarting the whole goddamn flamewar. We've had enough bullshit as it is

Ouarch ok stop it please.
Pendragon you have some reasons to feel crossed but try to move on please. we won't advance if we keep recreminating others...

Zion atreides : Well there is still one vote in order to deflect trolls. But only for that. The problem with what you bring here is that it could work, but only in theory... In practice, the vote start by being based on quality, like it's meant to, then it slowly drift toward voting according to the person who posted it ( " I won't vote / will vote against that deviation because I don't like the author )

And *that* has the potential to cause an awful lot of dammages. I don't believe there is any way around it.

I think the voting was varied because there were no guidelines. Different people voted different ways because nobody knew what should have been in or out.
I only know of one instance where people were voting down something because of who was submitting it, but that issue is past and shouldn't arise again. If there were other instances, well then... I wasn't aware.

Pendragon wrote:

Easy for you to say when half the damn people on that petition don't have YOU blocked from communicating with them.

Seriously, I wasn't even connected to the stupid thing and now it's like a game of "pin the blame on Pendragon".

You pricks have ALOT of nerve to talk down to me after that.

Okay, that's it.

You act like this and wonder why people don't want to communicate with you? No one wants to communicate with you because they know how volatile and paranoid you are. Everything is seen like an attack against you. Everything is a reason to complain.

We're not blaming you for anything to do with the letter. We're blaming you for the trolling you've done in its wake. I personally think that's all you are, really, or at least what you've become. A troll and attention whore. This thread is about Karbo coming back. I'm sorry to say, it's not about you.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you do have the maturity in you to back off and take this somewhere private.

I don't know.

--

Anyways, for voting, I do agree with AJ. I only recall one instance where people were voting something down because of the submitter, but that was due to extraneous circumstances.

once again STOP

If you people want to continue to flame each other, do it by *private means*. Not here.

JT, whether that's true or not, pointing it out accomplishes nothing but more conflict. Pen isn't going to suddenly agree with you, especially if you're that confrontational, and you're just going to make yourself look like an ass. And Pen, pointing out those sorts of things isn't going to make anyone like you any more, or feel sorry for you at all, because you're really just showing everyone that you can't be trusted to be mature enough to handle anything serious.

Please, both of you have been around this community for a long time: set a decent example for newcomers. If Karbo's right about people being scared away from the forums by some hostile mood here, don't contribute to it. We can have our disagreements, but recently it seems that no one is adult enough to disagree without insulting each other like a brood of harpies. It's pissing me off. I walk over a mile to the library every few days so I can actually connect to a Wi-Fi signal until I finally get one installed at home, only to come back to this bullshit day after day. Shut up. Please. Karbo has been adult enough to realize that this petty fighting is only making things worse, so I think everyone else can. Excuse the bluntness. I'm usually not so direct, but I'm really just tired of it all.

---

Returning to my original point about the voting, I agree with AJ in that I've only heard of a few cases in which the voting system was so sorely abused. Most of the discrepancies were due to incoherent standards and differing interpretations of what was acceptable in any given gallery. I admit that I've never run a DA group, so I didn't know that the main gallery couldn't be renamed. Really, my main problem is that it's hard to find real critique on DA. There's plenty here on the forums (maybe due to that "hostile mood"?), but everyone seems to be content to accept sugar-coated platitudes of praise instead of constructive criticism on DA.

Don't get me wrong, Karbo, it's pretty awesome when I look at my comments and I'm like "whoa, Karbo himself read my story and thinks it was pretty good", and I do think an artist or writer needs that little boost of encouragement now and again, so they actually feel like their efforts are worthwhile. But that doesn't really help me get better. My stories were riddled with little inconsistencies, lack of character development, and a jumbled plot. Even though I did realize this myself upon looking them over, I had a much clearer picture of what to do about it once Stabs volunteered a critique. Stabs doesn't go out of his way to pull a punch, and some people don't like that. My opinion is this: if you can't handle a little honest criticism, don't make your stuff public.

There was no "you suck, so stop writing and just get off the Internet". That's not critique, it's flaming. No, he also pointed out a lot of the things I did right, or where I could have done better but did show some potential. No one's perfect: even Karbo, whose extremely skillful artwork grants him hordes of fans, has room to improve. So if he has room to get better, you better believe the rest of us have lots of it. It pisses me off when some whiny-baby can't take a critique. Yeah, some people are a little more blunt than others, but grow up and look past it! If someone's taking the time to really pore through your work for a good critique, they probably have some vested interest in seeing you grow as an artist/writer!

Sorry. That's my rant.

Karbo wrote:

Pendragon you have some reasons to feel crossed but try to move on please. we won't advance if we keep recreminating others...

Well, I guess that's that then. Everyone gets their say in but me.

I'm done with it then. No use saying anything when it gets me ignored anyway.

ZionAtriedes, that's very true. It is hard to get a good critique on deviantart- whether the problem is too much sugar or just not being noticed. Stabs IS really good at it, though.