Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^

edit: since no one seemed to like them, I won't contribute my ideas regarding heaven in Felarya.

I actually prefer that Heaven remains vague, unless you want to write an entire series that take place, as it's not meant to be very important in Felarya. I don't really see Heaven as boring, and if you think about it, what else does Hell have aside from eternal torment and demons?

I don't see Heaven as boring, and in fact, I hate people who think so two-dimensionally about it. In fact, the angel character I introduced is a High General (meaning she's your angel's boss, Amaroq ) and she's most certainly not lax when it comes to turn the new meats into war machines valiant defenders of the upper realm.

I kinda like the way it's represented: given that Angels are attracted to positive energies emitted through pleasant emotions, I like to see that it's not just a big fluffy cloud, but is like a utopian city, where all that you will ever need and want can be found, among other types of landscape. Like a big field for a warrior to perfect himself even after death, cause some schmoes may have a brilliant idea of going to Heaven via powerful magic for various purpose, like kidnapping a soul so they can bind it to some magic gem to empower it. Stuff like that.

Point is, people who view Heaven as boring simply have little imagination.

Hmm... Not bad.

I believe what it means by universal array is taht hell, heaven and Felarya are part of the same universe. Of course, they are not accessible by normal means in Felarya; instead, hell and heaven are different continuum within the Felarya universe. They obey different rules and have different requirements.

While your idea is interesting and does have merit, I believe that it is based too much on the assumption that Heaven is a physical plane. It's not really though; it's a spiritual one.

However, I've had some ideas for heaven that could achieve what you wanted with implementing the Felaryan soil into it. I just haven't seen any reason to type it up.
My idea will give more motivation for angels to try to convert followers to their religion and give a reason for them to make.

Sean, I don't see where my Ideas speak against yours but I don't like to have heaven this vague. I mean, come on, only one article that doesn't even describe heaven, but many many texts for hell isn't fair. There are so many people havin hellish characters in stories and so on and I want to make heaven somewhat attractive too.
If you say I have little imagination and you hate those people then it's your opinion, but to be honest, I don't think you're in the position to judge me by something like that.

Heaven feels boring BECAUSE there has nothing been written for it yet and now that I want to you go like "no we don't need that, heaven is fine because my character does this and that". That's fine but nobody knows about that!


Anime Junkie: I do have the assumption that heaven is physical. That is because it is stated that way in the wiki already. Souls and so on get a physical form. That already proves my assumption. Also physical things are best in order to get into the minds of people. Why should hell be something easily understandable and heaven not?

So instead I'd like to be given some comments about the things I wrote, not what you already did or want to do... Otherwise I won't even be able to make a concept :-/

Point a line in my previous posts that explicitly states that I was judging you and saying "Your idea sucks" word for word.

There is a difference between detailing something and setting something in stone. I'm just saying that Heaven lacks detail, but should still be left open. I even said that I disliked the idea of "fluffy cloud Heaven" since that is generic and boring.

ok, here we go:

I said:
heaven is read like... Boooooringness for eternity. ^^

You said:
I don't see Heaven as boring, and in fact, I hate people who think so two-dimensionally about it.
also:
Point is, people who view Heaven as boring simply have little imagination.

You didn't say "your idea sucks". But I also didn't say that you said it. I read your post more like "you have little imagination and think two-dimensional - i hate that



I didn't say I want to carve everything in stone since I critized exactly that in the Canon-topic. BUT I want to give it some form which people can imagine. I want to give heaven said details that are missing to the point where you have a general guideline. The actual content of my "plains" and "islands" is left open for everyone to decide HOW this heaven looks like.

I never thought heaven was boring. In my mind, no two people have the same vision of Heaven, or God for that matter. In this life, I think every single person is going to be surprised by what they find on the other side, if there is anything there at all.

In Felarya, I think that the beings that maintain Heaven have the ability to make our dreams come true. Maybe not many, but someone up there surely has that power. The happiness we feel in that realm, gives off an energy and it is this energy that the hosts of Heaven want to bask in. I think we too are able to enjoy that energy permeating throughout Heaven and the situation is the exact opposite in Hell.

When it comes to commiting crimes in Heaven, I think the negative energies given off by a person contemplating such actions will be felt by the hosts of Heaven and the psychopomps will promptly do something about you so that the negativity doesn't pollute the atmosphere, so to speak. I highly doubt there will be any such problems though because anybody who has the potential to commit a crime would not be likely to make it into Heaven; they would still be wandering purgatory (Asphodel Island... in my little stories) or suffering in Hell.

Anyway, those are my not so great thoughts

Ah, but this is where you failed at reading. You see, that wasn't a statement aimed at you, but at people who only think of Heaven as "Big Fluffy Cloud". The flaw in your statement that I was judging you is that you dislike the depiction of fluffy cloud heaven. Therefore, my statement could not be aimed toward you.

If you want me to point actual flaws, here we go.

For starters, AJ already pointed out the first one: the idea that they are physical plane. This implies that a person could randomly stumble in Heaven in the same manner someone can stumble in Felarya. This presents a big problem considering that Heaven is a place where souls go to. If they are physical, then a living person could potentially end there completely by accident. Even if this isn't a dimensionally unstable place, the fact that it's physical like Felarya present the possibility of ending there through an unorthodox mean. I prefer that in order to access Heaven, you need a powerful spell that converts your body into a form that can exist in Heaven. In other words: a soul, since that is what normally ends up there.

Second, while I have no objection bringing the river into the equation, something that I in fact like, I don't quite get why the two planes should be shaped like triangles? This would mean that both Heaven and Hell have finite space. This represents a MAJOR issue because millennia have passed and so many people and souls would have ended up there. At one point, space will run out. Also, if they are inverted triangle juxtaposed in a symmetrical fashion, that means that the river is very thin between the tip of Heaven and Hell and widens while further apart. The problem there is that with the fact that both planes are physical, thus have finite space, the River would really be a boundless body of water surrounding both realms, and the part between Heaven and Hell only looks like a river.

Third, dying outside of an angel, when you're nothing but a soul and being able to live is very confusing. For starters, if dying in an angel's stomach means that you are assimilated, that means that your body was your soul, thus you are deader than dead. But if you die outside of an angel, you can be brought back to life because your soul somehow ended back in the mortal's realm. The problem is that it was your soul in Heaven. So really, it's not really dying, it's just spontaneously disappearing from Heaven and ended back up in the mortal's realm. Also, how can you be "recollected" and sent to Hell anyway? If you sinned in Heaven, how did you end up there in the first place? And if you sinned there, why haven't you been booted out already instead of waiting until you "died" again?

Sean Okotami wrote:

Ah, but this is where you failed at reading. You see, that wasn't a statement aimed at you, but at people who only think of Heaven as "Big Fluffy Cloud". The flaw in your statement that I was judging you is that you dislike the depiction of fluffy cloud heaven. Therefore, my statement could not be aimed toward you.

Aha... So I was the one who failed, huh? Even after reading your text again I still read it the way I understood first. Whatever, It would have been better if you just hadn't insultet anyone, then there hadn't been any "failures" in the first place... :-/

Quote :

If you want me to point actual flaws, here we go.

For starters, AJ already pointed out the first one: the idea that they are physical plane. This implies that a person could randomly stumble in Heaven in the same manner someone can stumble in Felarya. This presents a big problem considering that Heaven is a place where souls go to. If they are physical, then a living person could potentially end there completely by accident. Even if this isn't a dimensionally unstable place, the fact that it's physical like Felarya present the possibility of ending there through an unorthodox mean. I prefer that in order to access Heaven, you need a powerful spell that converts your body into a form that can exist in Heaven. In other words: a soul, since that is what normally ends up there.

I repeat myself another time. The wiki already (!) states that souls which come to Heaven actually get a PHYSICAL form. When a soul becomes physical, everything else should be physical too. I don't get the argument here. Also The wiki already states that you can't just travel there by foot. You'd need dimenstional magic to do that. Please read the articles before critizising my ideas since I really try to orientate myself after them.

Quote :

Second, while I have no objection bringing the river into the equation, something that I in fact like, I don't quite get why the two planes should be shaped like triangles? This would mean that both Heaven and Hell have finite space. This represents a MAJOR issue because millennia have passed and so many people and souls would have ended up there. At one point, space will run out. Also, if they are inverted triangle juxtaposed in a symmetrical fashion, that means that the river is very thin between the tip of Heaven and Hell and widens while further apart. The problem there is that with the fact that both planes are physical, thus have finite space, the River would really be a boundless body of water surrounding both realms, and the part between Heaven and Hell only looks like a river.

Okay, that is not necessary and shall be left out. I agree with you here. I edited that out just now.

Quote :

Third, dying outside of an angel, when you're nothing but a soul and being able to live is very confusing. For starters, if dying in an angel's stomach means that you are assimilated, that means that your body was your soul, thus you are deader than dead. But if you die outside of an angel, you can be brought back to life because your soul somehow ended back in the mortal's realm. The problem is that it was your soul in Heaven. So really, it's not really dying, it's just spontaneously disappearing from Heaven and ended back up in the mortal's realm. Also, how can you be "recollected" and sent to Hell anyway? If you sinned in Heaven, how did you end up there in the first place? And if you sinned there, why haven't you been booted out already instead of waiting until you "died" again?

Same as first one: as soon as you have a physical body, you CAN die. If you die, your soul gets released. A released soul has to be collected. If no angel collects you, you'll most likely be collected by a demon after your soul left heaven. Now where exactly is the problem? I think it is logical.

I have actually read the articles. It's a physical plane for a soul, but not a physical plane for all. For a soul, everything there is material. If it was a physical plane just like Felarya, then your soul would also be physical in Felarya. Souls resonate differently in Heaven in Hell, as when they enter this realm, which can only be accessed in the form of a soul, the soul become physical, but only there. This doesn't mean that they are universally physical. In order for a human to go to Heaven other than dying, he must become immaterial. Otherwise, access is impossible. What is a soul in the mortal realm is physical in the realm of Heaven and Hell, but not the opposite. Angels and Demons manage to become physical in the mortal realm by either converting them to a mortal form, or by sending a projection which is physical in the mortal's realm. Personally, I'm not a fan of the latter.

The problem is that in Heaven and Hell, your soul is your body. Therefore, if the body dies there, so does the soul, as they are both one and the same.

Also, I would like to apologize for getting carried away earlier.

I'll jump in one more time just to discuss the river idea... In my mind, the river that separates Heaven and Hell is the river Styx and it links the supernatural world to the natural world, or the Underworld to the Upperworld, at both ends. The river is very wide but both Heaven and Hell are visible over the horizons.

Now for shoots and giggles... In the myth that I plan to continue writing, eventually, the river Styx is possesed by an entity that has been banished to its depths and has collected plenty of souls that have tried to swim across it. Styx strips those souls of almost everything they are and, in a way, assimilates them. It poses the same danger to Angels and Demons as well. I haven't decided on how it happens just yet, but at the end of my little myth I'm leaning towards the river Styx being "purified." Well, that's enough about that.

I don't know about that river styx so I can't say much about it right now, sorry.


@ Sean: ok lets forget about the argument from earlier.




I understand your logic regarding that point, but I don't get what you think will happen, if the soul dies then. In my "version" it will be freed from physical bounds again and thus be ready to be collected or doomed to float around (which is unlikely because angels and succubi try to get as many souls as possible.


Ok, I think we can find an agreement there that it is not the same "physical" than the real world. BUT to the souls it actually IS physical the same way the real word would be to a mere mortal. Thus it is possible to grasp the world of heaven in the mind, just like you may think of hell.

What would you say about that?

I think that's perfectly fair.

To be fair, a lot of the vaguery regarding Heaven and Hell is somewhat intentional.

Karbo, and probably a great many members of this communtiy, don't really want to step on anyone's toes, or potentially offend people, by doing a clear, defined description of what Heaven and Hell are like. Especially since they are largely in consequential for most stories and art.

The more you define heaven, the closer and closer you come to actually having to explain how religion factors into it, and that can be a very delicate subject.

why do you see a problem there for heaven and not for hell? And why do we have to integrate Religion in the first place? I sure didn't intend to integrate any religious stuff at all.

I would like something concrete. That way, we can have some consistency, so that Writer A and Writer B don't describe Heaven as two completely different things.

Honestly, between the nudity, human consumption, portrayal of fictional religions (because last I checked, this does indeed offend Bible-thumpers), etc., attempting to describe Heaven would be a small twig in the kindling pile of religious butthurt.

The problem is when you think about it from the in-universe perspective. There are a lot of fictional religions (oddly similar to christianity) which has a paradise for those who spent a good life can rest in peace, and a place for sinners to repent for all eternity. If that part isn't integrated, that pretty much means that what the people who died believed in their entire life was a complete lie. From the perspective of the character, this wouldn't really be a good moment for them.

"You spent a good life, you deserve to rest."

"Wait, you're nothing like my religion said!"

"Oh that, yeah, your religion is a lie."

I could have sworn once upon a time that it was heavens and hells, plural. That there were multiple layers to the 'astral planes' that represented the 'good' and 'bad' ends, and that different beings of power held dominance over said layers with different attributes. Looking through the wiki though I can't find anything like that. Was that something which was changed or am I just going addled?

AisuKaiko wrote:

I would like something concrete. That way, we can have some consistency, so that Writer A and Writer B don't describe Heaven as two completely different things.

Honestly, between the nudity, human consumption, portrayal of fictional religions (because last I checked, this does indeed offend Bible-thumpers), etc., attempting to describe Heaven would be a small twig in the kindling pile of religious butthurt.

I think it's ok to describe it differently because it IS different for everyone. I think everyone has their own place in Heaven and there a number of Angels, or other beings, who are dedicated to ensuring that Heaven is everything they dreamed it would be (unless it involves seeing their enemies tortured in Hell... but the Angels might be able to make that happen too).

aethernavale wrote:

I could have sworn once upon a time that it was heavens and hells, plural. That there were multiple layers to the 'astral planes' that represented the 'good' and 'bad' ends, and that different beings of power held dominance over said layers with different attributes. Looking through the wiki though I can't find anything like that. Was that something which was changed or am I just going addled?

You're not too far off base...

Wiki wrote:

Those regions or sub-realms are ruled by entities of various powers, depending on the number of their believers. For example, Hell is full of demons, both minor and major, who project themselves as gods of the Underworld and Darkness. Some of them become successful enough to acquire real power from it, which help them greatly carving out niches among the nobility of Hell.

By the way... the "Heaven and Hell" page seems to be misplaced, can somebody fix that?

I actually think that the multiple Heavens, like sub-realms, is better overall. Hell's got multiple circles or I guess levels. Heaven could use something like that since it's supposed to be its diametric opposite.

The all knowing Wiki wrote:

Because Heaven and Hell build themselves after elements from mortal cultures from innumerable worlds, it is possible to find an almost infinite variety of regions and sub regions and familiar places in both realms. For example, there is the Valhalla in Heaven, a place welcoming the souls of brave warriors from a Norse tribe in the world called Earth, or the Maze of Yautek, where traitors to the Otarlo xast in the world of Wengbo are deemed to go after their death.

Heaven and hell can be whatever you want it to be if you develop a religion for the setting, just keep in mind that heaven remains the pillar of good and hell that of evil.

The all knowing Wiki wrote:

One of the more interesting properties of Heaven and Hell and their inhabitants is that they resonate on the exact same frequency as the souls of humanoid beings. In both Heaven and Hell, a soul become a physical object, one that Angels and Demons can easily see and touch; and even outside of their respective realms, an Angel or Demon can perceive the soul within a creature and interact with it, although with greater difficulty.

Amaroq reading this indicates to me that it's not like a soul walks into heaven/hell and gets a body it's more like they gain the ability to interact with things as they are all in tune with one another. If a soul were to leave heaven unless they were to become a ghost they would loose their ability to interact with the environment.

I've had a look at what Amaroq has proposed and also looked at the current entry on hell and heaven in the wiki.
My conclusion is that while the current entry describes a concept that works quite well and allows for great creative freedom, it is poorly described and a little too easy to misunderstand.

Amaroq, the things you suggest are simply not necessary, since they address things that have already been worked out and are in the current wiki entry, although they do require a little bit of thought to realise.

Due to that, I propose that the current entry be rewritten using the concepts that are already there so that the whole thing is easier to understand. Heaven is already very attractive; it's just not crystal clear in the wiki.

I'm going to have a crack at rewriting it and I encourage everyone else too.

Our Resident Nuclear Engineer aka Aethernavale wrote:

I could have sworn once upon a time that it was heavens and hells, plural. That there were multiple layers to the 'astral planes' that represented the 'good' and 'bad' ends, and that different beings of power held dominance over said layers with different attributes. Looking through the wiki though I can't find anything like that. Was that something which was changed or am I just going addled?

You're going addled, it's still there.

Sean Okotami wrote:

The problem is when you think about it from the in-universe perspective. There are a lot of fictional religions (oddly similar to christianity) which has a paradise for those who spent a good life can rest in peace, and a place for sinners to repent for all eternity. If that part isn't integrated, that pretty much means that what the people who died believed in their entire life was a complete lie. From the perspective of the character, this wouldn't really be a good moment for them.

"You spent a good life, you deserve to rest."

"Wait, you're nothing like my religion said!"

"Oh that, yeah, your religion is a lie."

Unless I'm somewhat mistaken, it's generally accepted that both Heaven and Hell are composed of a multitude of "sub-realms" (for lack of a better term), each displaying what people of a particular faith (or more generally set of beliefs) would expect to find. Thus you do end up exactly where you'd expected. It also means that people experience Heaven and Hell in very different ways. And it helps clarify how you end up there. It depends on you doing what you believe to be right within the rules of your own religion or moral code.

(For instance, I have a story where a human atheist assassin from another world dies in Felarya. Because she never believed in an afterlife, she can't go to one in a conventional sense. But because she always lived faithfully in accordance with the admittedly objectionable moral code that had been drummed into her by her society, and because she had always done what she genuinely believed to be right, she was technically heaven-bound. The powers that be in heaven caused her soul to forget that she had died, and inserted her into a sort of simulation of her life, where she believed that she was still living, in the world she had always known, but happier and generally "better". That was her (unknowing) experience of "Heaven".)

When you think about that it means that in Felarya there are/could be angels of atheism.

I guess that'd be the closest thing to an anarchist realm in heaven!

Anime-Junkie wrote:

When you think about that it means that in Felarya there are/could be angels of atheism.

I guess that'd be the closest thing to an anarchist realm in heaven!

The more I think about it, the more the mind boggles.