Felarya Felarya forum |
|
| Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ | |
|
+6AisuKaiko rcs619 TheLightLost Anime-Junkie Shady Knight Amaroq 10 posters | |
Author | Message |
---|
aethernavale Great warrior
Posts : 501 Join date : 2010-03-07
| Subject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:27 am | |
| - French snack wrote:
- Unless I'm somewhat mistaken, it's generally accepted that both Heaven and Hell are composed of a multitude of "sub-realms" (for lack of a better term), each displaying what people of a particular faith (or more generally set of beliefs) would expect to find. Thus you do end up exactly where you'd expected. It also means that people experience Heaven and Hell in very different ways. And it helps clarify how you end up there. It depends on you doing what you believe to be right within the rules of your own religion or moral code.
This is what I was specifically referring to. Also, I'm not really sure how me doing what I am has anything to do with afterlife. There isn't anything in the wiki that specifically points out that each of these 'layers' or 'realms' of Heaven and Hell are split up such that the separation is as me or FS described, or others mentioned at. There is no one 'god' of either complete union, but each realm has a/( ) 'leader/(s)'. Some of the confusion for me comes from the overall naming hierarchy, but I suppose that is just convention. Remember before Christianity got ahold of the Poetic/Prose Edda Hel (one l) was originally a person, not a place. The place, Helheim, simply meant 'House of Hel'. One of Loki's children, Hel was an outcast and the one Odin chose to rule over the afterlife domain. "Go to Hel" simply meant to die, it didn't really have any connotation as to whether you were a good or bad person, just that you should die. Personally I think this is one of those arenas where you could describe it as Heaven or Hell as an aside/descriptor, but the collection of planes forming the two sides of the afterlife - indeed, even the individual planes themselves - should have separate names. These can then be linked to the major religions of Felarya, and if you desired you could make a 'Purgatory' such as FS described (or something else, just an example) where those who do not fall into a qualifying candidacy go. Seeing as the psychopomps are the ones responsible for 'ferrying' souls, I also think you might see some interesting dialogues go down there - let us say for example you had a person who died and fit into the 'Heaven' example on some merits of their existence for their chosen afterlife affiliation, but fit also with the 'Hell' example of the same or another said afterlife affiliation. Such things might even be the cause of some of the wars between Heaven/Hell - where one region believes another region is unjustly or indiscriminately robbing them of souls they have 'rightful' claim to. | |
| | | French snack Moderator
Posts : 1192 Join date : 2009-04-05 Location : in Milly's stomach. Care to join me?
| Subject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:51 am | |
| - aethernavale wrote:
- Seeing as the psychopomps are the ones responsible for 'ferrying' souls, I also think you might see some interesting dialogues go down there - let us say for example you had a person who died and fit into the 'Heaven' example on some merits of their existence for their chosen afterlife affiliation, but fit also with the 'Hell' example of the same or another said afterlife affiliation.
Such things might even be the cause of some of the wars between Heaven/Hell - where one region believes another region is unjustly or indiscriminately robbing them of souls they have 'rightful' claim to. I would think that, in case of incompatible moral doctrines, what matters fundamentally is what the individual in question believed. You don't end up in an afterlife which doesn't correspond to your own religious or moral code. When there's a borderline case within the individual's affiliation, then indeed I imagine there may be squabbles between Heaven and Hell. Psychopomps may watch out for these particular cases, and rush to nab them as soon as they die, before the other side can get its hands on them. Here's the scene in one of my stories where a psychopomp appears to a non-believer, and explains some of the mechanics to her. (Be warned that this constitutes quite a major spoiler for anyone who hasn't read (or finished reading) "Lost in Felarya", and who may intend to do so.) - Spoiler:
The hotel was a pleasant one, but not excessively luxurious, located near the centre of Damascus, within walking distance of the embassy quarters. The driver assured her she would provide her with a car whenever she needed one, but they both knew Chan would prefer to operate alone. The heart of Damascus' millenia-old city, recently proclaimed the cultural capital of the Arab world, would make for pleasant strolls, in any case. Though Chan was here to work, she was not entirely insensitive to the charms of foreign architecture, culture and history.
Besides, if she was to understand the Syrians, she would need to experience their country, their knowledge, their modes of thought, their way of life. The Dear Leader, back home in Korea, wisely insulated the common people from knowledge of the outside world, but an Intelligence operative such as herself was an obvious exception.
The driver left her outside the hotel, and Chan wasted no time in checking in, addressing the staff in near-fluent French. She made her way up to her room, wondering how long she would have to wait before she was provided with final instructions for her duties.
She needn't have wondered. As her door clicked and she pushed it open, stepping into pleasant, air-conditioned accomodations, something told her there was someone already in the room. She paused, in the doorway, her mind switching to instincts honed by years of training.
There was no point in remaining silent. The intruder would have heard the door. Instead, leaving it open behind her, she called out in French: "Who's there?"
The reply came in Korean. The voice was feminine, and strangely soft, with a warmth Chan was unaccustomed to.
"Come in, Mrs. Lee. And don't be afraid."
This was unusual, but Chan was no stranger to the unusual. She had faced death, and inflicted it, on a number of occasions. Thus she was alert, but calm, as she walked into the main section of her hotel room.
Years of preparation could not have readied for what she saw then, as the intruder faced her with an eerily gentle smile. The woman was Korean –or at least looked it–, dressed neatly in pure white. She wore the badge of loyalty to the Great Leader on her chest, identifying her as a compatriot, but her very being seemed to emanate a warm, radiant glow. The softness of her skin, her face, had an almost ethereal quality, and her brown eyes shone with incomparable kindness. Chan stopped, gazing at her, her mind struggling to process what she was seeing. For several long seconds, she was disconterted, faced with an experience which her rational mind could not account for.
"I mean you no harm," the woman said, softly. The goodness in her voice was such that Chan felt the yearning urge to trust her. Yet she remained cautious.
"Who are you?"
"I'm a psychopomp," the woman said, gently. "An angel of death. I appear to the souls of those who have died, to lead them to the next stage of their existence."
Chan processed that, her face remarkably calm. "You're telling me I'm dead."
"Yes." The stranger's expression was gentle, compassionate, but devoid of sorrow.
"That's not possible," the spy said, bluntly. "Who are you really?"
The woman smiled. "This is going to be particularly difficult for you to accept. Will you allow me to explain?" She gestured at the comfortable armchairs, cornering a low table and facing a television screen.
Chan nodded, curtly, and they sat, facing each other. "If I'm not satisfied with your explanation, I can make you talk," she warned.
The angel merely smiled. "Listen, Mrs. Lee. And then I'll answer any questions you may have." Chan nodded again, and the stranger began: "You remember boarding a plane from Paris to Damascus, under orders from your superiors to carry out an assignment here." Chan's eyes fixed her, the human make no comment. "Your plane never landed. It encountered a dimensional disturbance above the Mediterranean, and was swept into a world called Felarya. There, it crashed. You survived, along with most of the passengers and crew. You were in a jungle, and you volunteered to explore it, to help your fellow survivors – to chart the way ahead. You–"
"I–" Chan opened her mouth, hesitant, a look of confusion on her face.
"Yes?" the angel encouraged her, ever so gently.
"I… remember that," she said, slowly. "The memories are coming to me." She frowned, puzzling over what she was experiencing. "Have you done something to my mind? Have I been drugged?"
"You haven't been drugged." The angel's incomparably kind eyes searched her face. "What do you remember?"
"There was a man… Dmitri… Russian… He was caught… in a giant spider's web." Chan spoke slowly, the memories swimming back into focus. She spoke them as they came, struggling against disbelief. "I tried to save him, but he died."
"Yes," the angel said, gently. "Then you were captured, too…"
"A flying creature… It brought me to some giant beings, half-snake and half-woman. One of them was called Crisis. She…"
"Yes?"
"She force-fed me to another of the snake-women, called Anna." Chan repressed a little shiver. "I remember being… swallowed. Pushed down into darkness, by her throat muscles, so strong… She didn't want to eat me, but she was forced to swallow."
"That's right." The luminous woman smiled, softly. "You died in Anna's stomach, Chan. She digested you, dissolving your body to nourish hers."
Chan frowned. "That's not possible!"
"Why?"
"Because…"
"Because you don't believe in an afterlife?"
"Because it's absurd! There are no giant, man-eating, half-animal women! These are memories you've somehow implanted in me." She paused, something clicking in her mind. "The plane… I woke up disoriented on the plane. That's when you did it. You had someone there, who drugged me." She scowled, fierce. "Why?"
"If these memories were false, created, implanted… Why would anyone have made them so difficult for you to accept?"
Chan considered that. Her mind had been indoctrinated through her upbringing, but she had received more of an education than most of her compatriots, and she was not stupid. Faced with the unknown, she did not dismiss even the implausible out of hand.
"If I were dead, I would not be able to think, or speak," she said at last. "There is nothing after death. The mind is tied to the body. If my body had been dissolved and passed through some creature's digestive system… Then there would be nothing left of me. No conscious thought."
"You're wrong," the angel said, gently. "And that's why you're here."
"Explain."
"What you experienced on that aircraft, waking up disoriented, was your mind reawakening after death. Because you've never believed in an afterlife, and you rejected the very possibility of its existence, your mind projected you into a continuation of your life. You were back on the plane, and landing in Syria, as you would have done if you'd never visited Felarya… and if you hadn't died there."
Chan absorbed that, too, considering it carefully, examining the likelihood and logic of the bizarre explanation.
"So all this is a construct of my mind?" she asked, finally, and tapped her fingers against the arm of her armchair. "None of it is real?"
"It has no reality in the physical sense."
"What about you?"
The angel smiled. "I'm real enough."
"And the loyalty badge on your chest?" she asked, her tone hostile.
"I adapt my appearance to the people I visit. If those people have religious beliefs, I adapt my form to what they would expect to see. In your case, you believe in the political leadership of the society you grew up in–"
"All right," Chan cut her off, frowning. The implications of that were disturbing – if there was any truth in them. She would consider them later. "So what happens now? Am I trapped in… in a mental construct of what I imagine Damascus to be like? Is this the afterlife?"
"Your afterlife depends on your beliefs," the angel said, gently. "Based on your own moral code, and on your adherence to it, you'll probably end up in some form of heaven. One that your consciousness can accept. You may not even perceive it as an afterlife. It's possible that, for you, the afterlife will be an impression that you're still alive, a return to what've always known – but in a more idyllic form." She smiled. "I can tell you no more than that, for now." Seeing Chan about to protest, she went on: "I may well guide you to that heaven myself, later. But that's not why I've come to you now."
"Then why?" Some of the hostility had drained out of Chan's voice. She remained wary, cautious, but found herself strangely willing to hear this woman through. This gentle, glowing being, who simply could not exist.
"You died leaving unfinished business," the angel said, ever so softly. "You still have a mission to complete in the world of the living."
"You mean, in Syria?"
"No." The woman smiled. Her eyes glowed warmly, strong and reassuring, almost mesmerising. "I mean your mission in Felarya."
The only other time I've had a psychopomp in one of my stories was the following, but that was... a bit different: http://frenchsnack.deviantart.com/art/Story-42-144227436 | |
| | | Pendragon Grand Mecha Enthusiast
Posts : 3229 Join date : 2007-12-09
| Subject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:12 am | |
| As long as there isn't talk of souls every 5 seconds I don't mind fleshing out heaven and hell.
It just creeps me out. | |
| | | Shady Knight Lord of the Elements
Posts : 4580 Join date : 2008-01-20 Age : 34
| Subject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:42 am | |
| I personally don't the idea of the powers that be causes someone to forget he or she add died and make her see an eternal vision of the perfect life. If you think about it, that's pretty grim since all its loved ones are a total lie there. Maybe there could be some realm that conform to the atheist's moral code, or at least one that doesn't believe in any specific religion, but where I guess honorable souls are ferried. Although, given the term "ferrying", I would like that the river between the two planes be integrated. | |
| | | Anime-Junkie Loremaster
Posts : 2690 Join date : 2007-12-16 Age : 31 Location : The Country of Kangaroos and Criminal Scum
| Subject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:51 am | |
| Sean, that is what I assumed would happen. As I said, that realm would be the closest thing to an anarchist realm in heaven since it would be a realm with no real deity; because atheists don't believe in any. | |
| | | French snack Moderator
Posts : 1192 Join date : 2009-04-05 Location : in Milly's stomach. Care to join me?
| Subject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:56 am | |
| - Sean Okotami wrote:
- I personally don't the idea of the powers that be causes someone to forget he or she add died and make her see an eternal vision of the perfect life. If you think about it, that's pretty grim since all its loved ones are a total lie there.
Depends how you see it. From the point of view of the individual in question (which I would say is the only one that really matters), it's not grim at all, since they view it all as real. | |
| | | Shady Knight Lord of the Elements
Posts : 4580 Join date : 2008-01-20 Age : 34
| Subject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:07 am | |
| For the individual, yes. But what if one of its friend was religious? What would happen to that friend? The atheist one is stuck floating in limbo, while the other one is in her religion's realm and cannot see the person she cared for ever again. If Heaven would even go make fake images of the atheist so the religious one isn't sad, taking this logic, then the realm of Heaven is founded on lies and deceits. This really doesn't make it a diametric opposite to Hell and gives it a HUGE shade of gray. | |
| | | TheLightLost Survivor
Posts : 965 Join date : 2010-10-18 Location : Who cares anymore
| Subject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:36 am | |
| I don't mind fleshing the afterlife out just as long as anything that goes into the wiki is clearly stated as being only a theory. | |
| | | French snack Moderator
Posts : 1192 Join date : 2009-04-05 Location : in Milly's stomach. Care to join me?
| Subject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:38 am | |
| - Sean Okotami wrote:
- For the individual, yes. But what if one of its friend was religious? What would happen to that friend? The atheist one is stuck floating in limbo, while the other one is in her religion's realm and cannot see the person she cared for ever again.
That's arguably the biggest problem with the "multiple sub-realms" theory. | |
| | | Shady Knight Lord of the Elements
Posts : 4580 Join date : 2008-01-20 Age : 34
| Subject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:48 am | |
| Not really. It probably would allow the possibility to travel from one realm to another, or in fact, live together should they desire. This is especially apparent considering communities, like Negav, which are the home of hundreds of religions, and is very likely that a follower of Religion A can be married with a follower of Religion B and live a very happy life together. But we're going on a really weird tangent here, so I suggest we get back on-track. | |
| | | Anime-Junkie Loremaster
Posts : 2690 Join date : 2007-12-16 Age : 31 Location : The Country of Kangaroos and Criminal Scum
| Subject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:42 pm | |
| I believe sean is right, since seeing your loved ones generates happiness, angels would allow people to see their friends from other realms because it would add more positive energy to both realms. - gt500x wrote:
- I don't mind fleshing the afterlife out just as long as anything that goes into the wiki is clearly stated as being only a theory.
Well it doesn't have to be. As you all know now, heaven is made of multiple realms, each one almost like it's own self contained heaven. The reason it is like this was so writers could write heaven however they wanted and it would still be true because those different descriptions of heaven would be different realms. That is why I am against trying to define heaven as a whole except for the ground rules that are currently in the wiki. What's currently in the wiki allows for countless realms; writers can have as many different realms as they want. Trying to define heaven as a whole takes away a lot of that freedom. | |
| | | Sponsored content
| Subject: Re: Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ | |
| |
| | | | Trying to make heaven somewhat more attractive ^^ | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |
|