Developing Naga Culture

edit: I mean Giant Nagas here, but it could really be any. I don't want the Giant Nagas excluded from this by any means.

edit edit: I changed some of the ideas to be labeled as old. The culture write-up is on page three. Here's a link some of the ideas though may not be considered out dated (polygamy is still possible due to an overbalance of females - males), but most is old (like ceremonial clothing from dridders before the great fued, and a goddess).

As any of you wiki readers out there might have noticed in the culture section, Naga's have a page - albeit no description of their culture present.

Chatting with a friend of mine, I've come to try a more tribal, yet independent culture. I've not made any sort of full description of their culture for the wiki at the moment, but I've been brainstorming a bit. I will bullet the ideas.

- Nagas used to be more tribal in the far past. They were spread out but lived together in small numbers.

maybe old:

-Nagas used war-paint instead of heavy bulking armor (they did know how to make metal equipment though). This paint was special, and not only was designed and decorated to instill fear in their enemies, but it also gave enhanced properties such as tougher scales/skin.

old:

old?:

-Naga children would stay with their parents until they could coil and swallow food on their own, then they would be set out into the world to survive as a sign of a gain in maturity before being allowed to come back. This results in the highest death of Nagas. Most children group together because they'd have no idea to, or are scared of living on their own without "mommy and daddy". (side note, this may explain why Crisis was found as a child by herself, severly wounded)

old:

I also have no idea what kind of homes they'd live in. I suspect it'd be marked by some kind of woven plant-like object they connected between a few trees to mark a roof and a place Nagas would sleep under. Though there'd only be one, so it might be a rather large ceiling/roof? I dunno.

Anyway, these are the ideas I've brainstormed thus far. If anyone has any more ideas, or wants to write it up to look professional let me know.

EDIT: this could be the base idea for the tribes in general. Each tribe could be different in one or a few ways. Or maybe adopts the customs of a neighboring tribe. This could be a GREAT way for idea-boxes out there like Slimetoad and Stabs to come up with a specific culture for a little tribe. Due to the vast nature of Felarya, I imagine a rediculous amount of varied cultures all across the existence plane. (cant say "planet" felarya, now can I? )

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As any of you wiki readers out there might have noticed in the culture section, Naga's have a page - albeit no description of their culture present.

Chatting with a friend of mine, I've come to try a more tribal, yet independent culture. I've not made any sort of full description of their culture for the wiki at the moment, but I've been brainstorming a bit. I will bullet the ideas.

The main issue with trying to develop a culture is that cultures are a byproduct of civilization, which is something that most preds just don't have.

> Dridders in the dridder forest are remnants and descendants of the defunct dridder empire. The live in tribes, and each tribe would have its own micro-culture.

> Fairies in the fairy kingom would have a culture as well.

> Humans in Negav and Chiotia would have their own cultures.

> Most wild predators are generally solitary. They don't live in big groups. They wouldn't have any real culture beyond the circle of friends they hang out with. It'd be about the same level of culture that the ventrillo has, just a group of friends who regularly interact.

> Fairies and Harpies are exceptions to this, since they actually do live in small groups of a dozen or so regularly. Individual fairy tribes/harpy flocks would have their own micro-cultures.

Personally, I believe that if there ever was a greater naga civilization, it got shattered by whatever conflict they had against the dridder empire in the past. Modern nagas are scattered and mostly solitary, save for their small group of friends.

Honestly, trying to develop ancient naga culture would be kind of pointless. Modern nagas are so scattered that any remnants of their old culture would have long-since faded from memory.

Giant predators, barring a few exceptions, are just too scattered, too rare, and too loosely interconnected to have much of a culture beyond their immediate family (if they knew them) or circle of friends.

Human-sized preds are a completely different story though. There are MANY more of them, and they would actually group up for protection quite commonly.

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The main issue with trying to develop a culture is that cultures are a byproduct of civilization, which is something that most preds just don't have.

not...entirely. Anthropologists don't just define culture like that, you're not talking broadly enough here. Civilization and Culture do go hand in hand, but all you need basically is complex language and shared beliefs going back two or more generations.

Within ecological anthropology there is a tendency to describe culture as a "tool" used by society to maintain its adaptation to nature. This "tool" comprises concrete, physical tools, but also knowledge, skills and forms of organization.

According to this definition, culture is: "... a part of the distinctive means by which a local population maintains itself in an ecosystem and by which a regional population maintains and coordinates its groups and distributes them over the available land."

So keep that in mind when talking about culture.

To be honest, I think trying to give a culture to a race whose base animals are known for being solitary and territorial falls kind of flat. I can't see many nagas gathering together for too long, and even then it could be really over something as simple as some problem that needs to be taken care of, like the wars with the Dridders

And kind of unrelated, but since males are hard to come by I always assumed nagas mated via the old "snake tangles", with a single female attracting any possible male in the vicinity and all of them competing to father her eggs

Why are people so intent on shooting this idea down instead of trying to come up with an idea?

It sounds almost as if people don't WANT Nagas to have a culture, and if a creature doesn't have a do-able culture in Felarya, they shouldn't exist as a species there. Besides you're speaking from a strictly snake standpoint. Nagas are part mammalian. Oviviposition was it? Get sperm from a male and use that to raise the egg in the mother's body and mature more before being birthed. I remember some thread about that.

Solitary and Territorial exist as a way to adapt itself to nature. Therefore it falls under "culture" since Nagas can speak intelligently as well. I'd rather not argue about this. Though I will defend the need for Nagas to have a culture, and its about time we develop it.

bump.

c'mon this is important.

First, we'll reply when we have ideas, Bael. Understood? Second, you have our honest opinion, and it wasn't given randomly. You know what they think. No need for bumping. If you really have so much enthusiasm come up with more material yourself and see what Karbo thinks.

Also, you seem to be taking this a bit too personal. Make sure you aren't, because that's a swift road to nowhere.

Well, even a reply with a comment on what people think would be nice too. How well do my ideas fit with the environment? Do you see naga culture looking this way? Are there other cultures from around the world I could take examples from? There's many things to comment, not just giving out a reply of ideas (although, that is a great help too).

I bumped because I felt like I'd get a little more responses out of this thread, considering the nature of Naga culture, its so incredibly underdeveloped. I expected feedback, disagreement, critique, revision. Often times many excellent threads go nowhere because people simply don't comment, and that's pretty unfortunate.

So that's where my frustration was coming from, not that naga culture means anything to me personally. I just want to try and develop what has seemed to be one of the most general aspects of Felarya (Nagas) into something that fits well with the world.

I thought their culture was "eat people, sleep, then eat some more"?

It was the Crisis approved method.

I was wondering about naga culture, myself. There's a section for it, so why haven't we worked on it?

I agree that the basis from snakes is hindering discussion here. In this case, it is semi-justified; the main character, Crisis, was an orphan. We can assume the same case with at least a few more other nagas. Those nagas would either live by the law of the jungle or, if they were taken into a culture like Crisis was, absorb whatever culture they were taken into.

The idea of a 'vestigial' culture among giant nagas is OK. From what I've read, nagas are not as social as, say, harpies, but that doesn't mean that they did not have a culture at some point. Crisis took up fairy cultural norms, so nagas definitely have 'wiring' for culture. Fiona and Rin also took in human culture fairly well. Nagas are also confirmed to have family ties, or at least the desire for such (e.g. Crisis and Vivian). It's not that nagas simply cannot have culture; we just have not been able to see it flourish.

Perhaps something like this would be more easily observed in smaller subspecies of naga than larger ones. They may be sticking more closely together due to being more vulnerable in general. (As per the Wiki: they suffer due to the reputation of their larger cousins.) I know you do not want to omit giant nagas from the equation, but we should really try working on the smaller ones anyways.

The opposite would (!theoretically) be true of gorgons. Even though stone gaze has more limits in Felarya, and even if there's a ruling from god (i.e. Karbo) that says that gorgons cannot stone gaze each other, they are reasonably powerful and generally written as more 'feral' than nagas in the Wiki. Plus, it's rare to have seer characters clustering together in one place.

Hope this was what you were looking for.

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I agree that the basis from snakes is hindering discussion here

Thanks, I agree.

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Nagas have capacity for culture and examples

exactly. Remember, anything with intelligence and language is capable of culture or has a culture to some extent. Remember that in Felarya all language from every species is translated instantly when spoken so people can understand each other.A specific language requires a cultural origin at some point, because language doesn't come out of nowhere.

Nagas also have mammalian traits that go deeper than the physical level, they have an intelligent brain and you can be sure they'll use it. It's not like the instinct of a snake where they stay separated from each other for the majority of their lives out of instinct. Smaller Nagas will be in larger groups than giant ones, but Giant Nagas aren't mostly by themselves either. It just happens that stories revolved around Giant Nagas are adventurous, after all, who writes a story revolving around a Naga's domestic life in the Felaryan wilderness?

I think the nature for earth-born snakes and the Naga's reputation is restricting people from getting anywhere. Since the problem is we're leaving one of Felarya's main races undeveloped. Also, this is Felarya, not Earth. Nagas wont behave the same way as snakes to on earth because the environment (not to mention species) is vastly different.

Your response LamiaSybaris was perfect.

If Gorgons are mostly feral, then their domestic culture wouldn't be very extensive, unless you had one that knew masonry and shaped the inside of a cave to look like a dungeon or something. Nagas would be VERY handy creatures also, in fact, the more solitary ones would demand a culture that was geared towards being able to make things that would make their own lives easier, and being able to do it well. Songs would be vastly different. If they left home at a young age, traditional songs passed on from mother to daughter might or might not be there, and they'd be coming up with their own.

[quote="Archmage_Bael"]

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Since the problem is we're leaving one of Felarya's main races undeveloped. Also, this is Felarya, not Earth. Nagas wont behave the same way as snakes to on earth because the environment (not to mention species) is vastly different.

Exactly. That bugged me, too. Someone really needs to get cracking on a short story or something documenting the smaller naga species. (If nobody else does it, I will.)

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If Gorgons are mostly feral, then their domestic culture wouldn't be very extensive, unless you had one that knew masonry and shaped the inside of a cave to look like a dungeon or something. Nagas would be VERY handy creatures also, in fact, the more solitary ones would demand a culture that was geared towards being able to make things that would make their own lives easier, and being able to do it well. Songs would be vastly different. If they left home at a young age, traditional songs passed on from mother to daughter might or might not be there, and they'd be coming up with their own.

Was kicking myself for using the term 'feral' earlier, since gorgons are still sentient and probably do have the capacity for culture (much like the more independent giant nagas). The Wiki paints them as having more snakelike traits than nagas, so I was at a loss for what term to use. I picture them having a wild side sort of like nekos, but with snakelike traits instead of catlike ones. If they have stone gaze like the typical gorgon, then culture is near-impossible owing to the high risk of accidental injury. (That said, the songs are a neat idea.) The Wiki blurb is...short, to say the least. If we had more information, I could make a better call.

Hm, not to completely ignore what you said, but in my first post, I mentioned Nagas getting married under a full moon. I figured out that the reason why most tribes do that sort of thing here on earth is because a woman's period lines up almost exactly to the full moon. That's also related to how they could tell the length of time it took for childbirth back in the ancient era.

It's ironic. People write about adventures in Felarya because of the lack of culture, and since people don't write about culture, we assume they have none. So its an unbroken circle. You know dolphins and chimps have culture? Dolphins especially have a very complex language, and is really good at showing expressions. People are actually trying to figure out how to understand dolphin language. I thought that'd be a little bit of interesting info.

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I mentioned Nagas getting married under a full moon

Remember, Felarya's sky is wierd. While it may work to keep a semi-normal tidal cycle, that doesn't necissarily mean it has a predictable lunar cycle. Full moons, multiple moons, etc, the sky shifts occaisionally.

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You know dolphins and chimps have culture?

Im fairly sure most of that is actually instincts.

You are using a very loose definition of culture which seems to be "a group of animals that live together and are able to communicate in some way". You can apply that to just about any animal. Bees are hive animals, and have a very complex social order and behaviors, but I wouldn't say they had a culture.

Culture is new behavior that arises from a gathering of intelligent animals. What you're talking about are instincts, things that are hardwired in and pop up no matter what.

Bael ,What Cliff is saying is what I tried to convey to you on MSN.

Giant Nagas can not have a unified culture because they are solitary beings. They do not gather in groups, as they are territorial and it is harder to find food for groups. This means that culture does not form.

And when we say culture, we are talking culture similar to human culture. Saying, practices and traditions unique to a group of individuals.
Chimps, dolphins and such do not have tradition and things that most people would call culture.

Like the wiki says, they are loners, not living in groups. Giant naga culture wouldn't be culture, it'd be traits and idiosyncrasies of individual characters and maybe their family history, assuming their family had raised them, which as far as I know they often don't.

You know most of these assumptions about how their family life is just that. Also when I said culture, I believe I defined it as having complex communication, and intelligence. Most of those "instincs" in dolphins and chimps have a generation based-culture, since they do not remember their previous generations unlike beings who are intelligence such as nagas. Once again, snakes are part mammals too. They need to communicate with others, that's the thing about being a mammal, is the need for grouping.

Even cats. You know every feline species out there needs affection and a social life. Even house cats. Many people don't seem to pay attention to these details. Also I urge people to read my suggestions for the ideas on their culture. It works too, I've also covered the life for children too.

I can imagine a naga dwelling area like a house. People leave in the morning, go their separate ways to do what needs to be done before coming back in the evening to prepare for the next day. It can work the same way - It doesn't mean that Giant Nagas go parading around as a giant group either.

Like I said too,

"I think the nature for earth-born snakes and the Naga's reputation is restricting people from getting anywhere."

Nagas are the most popular species. I urge you to come up with something for culture. Its rediculous to have a main race of felarya without a description of culture. Especially because you just reply back with "loners" every time.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

You know most of these assumptions about how their family life is just that.

And what you are saying is anything different?

Bael wrote:

Most of those "instincs" in dolphins and chimps have a generation based-culture, since they do not remember their previous generations unlike beings who are intelligence such as nagas.

To my knowledge there is no such thing as a generational based-culture if you have some source that says otherwise I would indeed like to be able to read it however.

Bael wrote:

Once again, snakes are part mammals too.

I just found that line funny.

Bael wrote:

Even cats. You know every feline species out there needs affection and a social life.

Simple Interaction does not a culture make.

Bael wrote:

Especially because you just reply back with "loners" every time.

The Wiki wrote:

As the majority of them are loners, similar to their giant cousins, they prefer to avoid confrontations with groups, especially those consisting of humans.

Now that being said the wiki also says

The Wiki wrote:

Small nagas sometimes form far-between villages, which are rather rare.

Bael what you can do is describe a single naga village and it's culture.

Pardon me, you're right I fibbed up. What I meant to say is Nagas are part mammal (not snakes). Sorry.

Ironically it also says the smaller nagas are the loners and not the Giant ones? Lol.

A generational based culture happens when a species does not pay any attention to the generation behind it. This happens in Chimps and Dolphins because they do not share the same sense that we do about sharing family history and timelines and all that. However, dolphins have a complex language, and when given the tools, are quite capable of having a human - level culture. This can be seen in many primates that are taught how to speak. Interestingly, Chimps have a better flash-memory than humans do. One was taught what numbers meant, and then they play a matching game, showing the numbers only briefly, and the chimp responded faster than any human.

This information comes from a university professor by the way.

Also, I keep saying this, but interaction is a big part of culture.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

Also, I keep saying this, but interaction is a big part of culture.

I'll agree that for a culture to exist interaction needs to take place, I don't however believe the reverse of that is always true. And what I mean by that is that while communication is the basis of a culture as it is necessary in order for the attitudes, values, goals, and practices of the culture to be shared. Now let's say hypothetically I were to speak with a terrorist. Interaction has taken place, but there isn't a culture between the terrorist and myself as I wouldn't share the same/similar attitudes, values, goals or practices.

Well of course, but a tendency for civil wars, aggressive behavior, and such can also be described as a part of a group's culture. Just like foraging is also, and you'd never think that such a basic way of gathering food holds any relevant to culture at all.

This circles back to my original post, and the ideas I had about making Nagas a tribal based culture.

...Wait, thinking back on to what I just said, did anyone actually read my ideas?

Aren't they already tribal based?

I didn't know they weren't.

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Ironically it also says the smaller nagas are the loners and not the Giant ones? Lol.

No, it says "As the majority of them are loners, similar to their giant cousins" which implies the giant ones also tend to be loners.

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Bael what you can do is describe a single naga village and it's culture.

Pretty much this. There would be NO single, unified naga culture (giant or tiny) in Felarya, due to the extreme isolation the wilderness creates and because nagas do tend to be a bit loners, living on their own or with a small circle of friends.

Any naga cultures would be completely limited to their individual tribe (in the case of small nagas, since giants generally do not hang around in groups that big), or circle of friends. I think this is better, personally. It gives creators more free reign with their characters, instead of saying "all nagas believe or do this".

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A generational based culture happens when a species does not pay any attention to the generation behind it

That isn't culture then, bael, that is instinct. Culture is something that is formed over time, and built on by generations. If a species does the same thing, every time, without input from the previous generation, it is instinct. Like bee dances, or wolf packs. They can be complex social structures, or contain complex behavior...but that is instinct, not intelligence or culture.

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However, dolphins have a complex language

That is no more a language than the sounds and postures dogs use to communicate. Its not a true language, so much as it is a series of signals or instintual triggers.

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and when given the tools, are quite capable of having a human - level culture

...what?

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This can be seen in many primates that are taught how to speak. Interestingly, Chimps have a better flash-memory than humans do. One was taught what numbers meant, and then they play a matching game, showing the numbers only briefly, and the chimp responded faster than any human.

You can teach a parrot mimic human speech, and you can teach a dog to add and subtract. An animal being able to mimic human speech or actions does not mean they have human-level intelligence. It does not mean they are self-aware or capable of higher independant thinking.

Check my very first post. Nagas having a tribal culture is like the first thing I suggested. -Which is why I'm saying aren't reading anything I'm saying, because in the end you're coming around to suggest what I myself said in the first place.

This also couples with the fact that I said both Giant and Smaller Nagas being included in this.


As for generation based culture, it IS different.

See:

Researchers have discovered that chimpanzees not only teach each other new and useful behaviors, but conform to their group's preferred techniques for performing them—a hallmark of human culture. - http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0826_050826_chimpculture.html

some more about chimp culture: http://www.livescience.com/1587-chimps-pass-culture-humans.html

Here's something about a dolphin chatting with her baby - http://kids.nationalgeographic.com/kids/stories/animalsnature/dolphin-language/

Here's a website stating that there's evidence for dolphins communicating linguistically. http://www.dolphins-world.com/Dolphin_Language.html

dolphin library stating that they learn dialects in their childhood, and some other revolutionary discoveries from the end of the century- http://www.dauphinlibre.be/langintro.htm

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For the first time in its history, Humankind must cope with the evidence a of a perfectly elaborated non-human language, endowed with its own syntax and open vocabulary.
It seems now definetly proved that dolphins, belugas, orcas, whales, spermwhales and all other cetaceans are speaking to each other by the means of local dialects that they learned during their childhood.
Of course, we still don't know WHAT cetaceans are telling but one fact is sure : their language is able to carry concepts and abstract informations and could even be more sophisticated - in the case of bottlenose dolphins - than any known human language.

Throw me a bone here- I know what I'm talking about.

First thing's first though. Nagas represent Felarya. We all have to admit that, they're the singular most iconic race in all of Felarya, and the wiki doesn't go much beyond saying that there's giant ones, small ones, they come in different sizes, they eat people, the fire nagas cast fire, the aboreal nagas use nature magic, and basically things I could have guessed on my own. The one thing different stating that they have a fued with the dridders, but not much more than that.

You click on the culture page and there's nothing there. literally - all it says is something like "description coming" or whatever. For the iconic race of Felarya, they sure seem to be pretty flat, not fleshed out, and such. I mean I can see that they all have their own personalities, but that doesn't mean anything because really - every creature has a personality.

We have two options.

1) Scrap Nagas: Since we cannot develop anything on them beyond looks and saying they can use magic, then what are they good for?

2) Redesign Nagas: We make nagas work in such a way so that the Iconic race of Felarya can represent the world in a good light. Who wants to read a book with a race that doesn't have a culture?

or the third option: We make it work with what we have, and cooperate instead of arguing whether its viable to have a culture, especially when nagas are part snakes with snake like attributes, but they don't have the brain of a snake. they have the brain of an intelligent species.

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Nagas represent Felarya. We all have to admit that, they're the singular most iconic race in all of Felarya

I see that as a problem, personally.

There's so many other things that need to be added, touched up, refined and so on. Nagas "being popular" shouldn't automatically push them to the forefront.

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You click on the culture page and there's nothing there. literally - all it says is something like "description coming" or whatever

There wouldn't be a single culture though, bael, for giants or human-sized ones. You would have dozens of small micro-cultures, limited to individual tribes (for human-sized ones) or circiles of friends (for the giant ones). Giant predators don't usually hang out in big groups, I imagine very few giant nagas actually have friends who are also nagas. The giants are spread out and isolated for the most part, with only their local friends and aquaintances.

You can't really fill in a culture for a race that does not have a single unified culture.

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1) Scrap Nagas: Since we cannot develop anything on them beyond looks and saying they can use magic, then what are they good for?

Then you'd have to scrap all the giant races, because 90% of them are like that. Beyond fairy packs and the dridder tribes down in the dridder forest, most individual giant preds are fairly isolated. They have their circle of friends, but that's about it. There aren't enough of them, and they are too spread out to have a massive, unified culture.

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2) Redesign Nagas: We make nagas work in such a way so that the Iconic race of Felarya can represent the world in a good light. Who wants to read a book with a race that doesn't have a culture?

Culture wouldn't really matter when dealing with giants, it'd be about the individual, their life, their circumstances, friends and personality. Crisis, Anna, Lea, Subeta and Vivian don't really have a "culture" beyond their individual personalities and interpersonal relations...but they are still interesting. The mangas are still fun to read.

We can develop behaviors that are innate to nagas, but as it's been hammered down repeatedly by just about everyone, a species that is mostly solitary won't have a single unified culture that can be elaborated on. It's like saying humans all have one culture, and we have the benefit of being social.

And yes, as it's been said, there may be a community here and there, but there would be so many that exist that it'd be a royal pain to describe them all, and there aren't really any notable communities aside from a family here and there.

They may have a vestigial culture, as was said, but it's been so long since a unified nation of nagas, if it could even be described as such, that each fragment would have evolved into something that is indistinguishable from its predecessor. Aside from a few details, they'd be nothing alike.

Also, I wanna point out that suggesting that we must either accept the idea that a wild, solitary race that has spread all over Felarya has a culture or scrap/change nagas is a bit, uhh... there's a word for it.