Harpy wiki entry

Heavenless-star wrote:

You hardly changed anything. I gave the reasons why leading people to think harpies should have bad tempers a bad idea, I don't know why you would leave that in. Perhaps it's a personal preference of yours but you shouldn't push that on the community, if we mean anything to you outside of a source of ideas. I waited nearly a month for some changes to happen and in the end I got practically nothing. That's not the way to nurture healthy morale in the community.

Edit: I'm also looking forward to your answer to a pm I sent a few days ago regarding other matters. I'm not trying to be pushy, please understand that this lack of communication can be frustrating.

woah calm down...

I won't make a change to something in the wiki just to please people >__ >
I change a thing if I think it's justified.

Here I changed some of the phrasing and removed un-necessary sentences - as you suggested - hinting at the fact they appear as mean and rude to other races but aren't necessarily so, provided you know more of them. However I don't see the necessity to change that trait entirely. It's part of what they are and what they have been known for and it adds flavor to the species.

I'm sorry but that doesn't even make sense. If you want to add flavor to their species you should flesh out their history and culture, and not lead new people to believe that all harpies behave exactly alike. This isn't about preference either, let me reiterate that; this is about the FACT that making generalizations about an entire species in the wiki leads to an influx of unoriginal ideas and characters. Is that what you want? Think about this rationally. New people look to the wiki as a guide; they don't have the understanding that long term members do. Wouldn't it be better to encourage diversity so that you can prevent the stagnation of this world of yours - that's right, I'm fully aware that this is your world and I'm not challenging your authority but that doesn't mean I shouldn't speak up when things start defying logic. And if you want what's best for Felarya you should be more willing to listen when the people who try and help you build it point out legitimate flaws that can be easily corrected before they become roadblocks for newcomers. Otherwise you're giving a big middle finger to the "community" as a whole when they invest so much of themselves to help you without asking for any compensation. You shouldn't underestimate how huge that is, Karbo. Just think of a logical way to add flavor to this "major race." Applying character traits to an entire species is far from a smart idea, it is a very bad idea.

I really don't know why I'm still pushing this matter, I told myself I was done with it. This time I'm done for sure. And I'll be away from Felarya for as long as it takes apathy to set in. I won't be a pain in anyone's ass anymore.

Heavenless-star wrote:

I'm sorry but that doesn't even make sense. If you want to add flavor to their species you should flesh out their history and culture, and not lead new people to believe that all harpies behave exactly alike. This isn't about preference either, let me reiterate that; this is about the FACT that making generalizations about an entire species in the wiki leads to an influx of unoriginal ideas and characters.

Sorry Karbo, but I agree. The term is called stereotyping, and it's what we're doing to Harpies. It needs to be changed.

I think the main problem here is that Karbo isn't taking the time to state why he doesn't think certain parts are justified. I don't know if it's because of his busy schedule or if he doesn't want to start an argument, but I do know that Karbo should at least take part in the debates more and state things like his reasons for not changing certain things, past just that he 'doesn't feel they are justified'. That's the real source of animosity here, or so I think.

I think the generalizations are actually helpful, so long as they are portrayed as generalizations, meaning that they don't apply to all harpies. That way, the generalization can be used for generic threats in stories and RPs, and for some character creation, but leaves it wide enough for writers to go outside of the generalization as well. How does that sound?

Generalizations are still part of a stereotype, whether or not its a truth. Though in this case, since we're not gossiping, generalizing would probably be fine if it WAS true, but the problem still remains whether or not it makes sense.

However, if Karbo wants that trait, then its his right to keep it that way. Even so, it still has to make sense.

For example, if you say that you want to eat something dry, and then say that you also want to eat something that's juicy, you have to pick one or the other. Saying you want both is fine, but you cant have both. Not that Karbo's saying that, but harpies have probably been written out the way they are because he probably cant find a way to express it in English.

Just theories here, dont want to put words in anyone's mouth.

Ummm, I think everyone needs to chill out here.

Karbo does sometimes move slowly when adding new ideas, and especially, when modifying old ones. Just because an idea seems good to you, and to people you know, doesn't mean he'll immediately agree, or move as quickly as you'd like. Relax and try to have patience with the man.

I mean, really. It took like... a couple months or so to get my Isolon Fist revisions into the wiki. They were generally popular with the people I knew in the community, and even after toning them down based on suggestions by Karbo, it still took a decent amount of time before it got to the point where he felt comfortable making the changes.

It ain't a race. There's no prize for moving quickly. Karbo-speed isn't everyone's preferred speed at times, but when it's someone else's setting, sometimes you just need to learn to work with their disposition and the speed at which they are comfortable doing things. That's what collaboration is about. Getting stressed out and accusing Karbo of spitting on people's good intentions isn't going to make him move any faster.

Just chill and enhance your calm. Ain't nothing to get all worked up over. Focus on being positive ^^

Well yeah, but even so, with all our idea about changes we should make toward harpy language, Karbo doesn't feel like they're what he wants in the wiki. He said it detracts from his view of how they should be, but with how other areas are developing, its starting to look like a contradiction.

Obviously Karbo means something else, so we gotta have faith. Telling us it's not quite what he envisions helps us fine tune something to where its close enough to fit with his vision of Felarya ^^.

As much as it's going to kill me, I must agree with Nyaha. Karbo should elaborate more on his point as to why he isn't revising the harpy dialect more thoroughly. If you look back at his posts, all he says is that it just adds flavor. Nothing beyond that. This is a very vague, and at the same time, weak explanation. It wouldn't make a big difference to reword some parts into something like that:

"Harpies in Felarya tend to be very brash, punctuating their sentences with a variety of insults and threats. Though their tone mostly dictates whether they mean it or not. This mindset is second nature to them, as they can become very creative with them, and even display this behavior even among other species. While they usually appear rude at first, if one spent enough time in their company, they can pick up on their unique language and a couple unique insults."

If he doesn't explain why it shouldn't be so in more details, we're only left to guess where we messed up and how we fix it, and nobody likes to play a guessing game.

lol, That's just how Karbo does things sometimes, man. There was about a two month stretch where he simply would not give me any reason why my Isolon Fist idea wouldn't work, even after it was toned down some the first time.

Karbo-speed isn't everyone's speed, and I think that a lot of the time, some of his responses like that are more akin to "Let me think on it more" than anything. Just relax, and try not to force the issue too much. Give him time, maybe even wait a little while before you bring it up again. It takes a gentle touch.

I don't pretend to even know what the current ideas for revising harpy language are, so he might be right in not totally agreeing. I'm just trying to inform of my personal experiences. Personally, I feel like no matter what you do, there's still going to be people making their harpy dialogue a painful, neigh-unreadable string of profanity. There's always those who will take a quirk and dial it up to 11. My own personal view is that harpies, more than anything, just have a gruff, tough way of speaking, and are fond of using insults instead of compliments and fake little threats.

Like... "Hey, half-pint! I need to see your sister. Go get her before I kick your ass and go in to drag her out myself." (Hey kid. I really need to talk to your sister. Go get her for me will ya?).

Or another "You sneaky bitch! How could you go off and get married without telling me? I'd kick your ass so hard if I weren't so happy for you!" ("I am so happy for you!" Likely followed by hugs and girlish squeals).

Not so much a string if f's and a's and such, but more a gruff, more aggressive way of speaking where insults and threats are used in a friendly way. Kind of like how some Australians talk, really.

I think it's just best we wait until Karbo figures it out and responds. We'll just be throwing theories around from now until then.

So personally I do agree with Shady. As much as I respect the guy for everything he's done for us, this is vague.

I honestly don't see what the big fuss is about.
Let's look at what the entry says after the rephrasing :

Quote :

Felaryan harpies in general are seen as a tough race, famous for their bad tempers, foul language and their sarcastic and mocking retorts. They can easily appear as heartless bullies to those who aren't aware of their strange customs.

I'm not saying a harpy is automatically a being with an awful personality here, but that they are seen as such and are famous for it in Felarya. And that make sense when others hear their language without knowing their custom. They have a rude reputation that's all.

You can find perfectly friendly, caring and genuinely kind harpies.... which won't prevent them to curse and threaten you nonetheless ^^
And that point I really don't want to remove it. If people find they are difficult and challenging to write about because of it ( and I agree, the scenes with Belletia in the manga were clearly not the easiest to write ), well the trait can be toned down or so, like not every harpies use it equally. Some of them could truly curse like sailors with horrible words and threats everywhere that make the original sense very hard to pick, while some could use milder language than the average of their kind.

However that custom is part of their culture and how they are raised and is transmitted from generations to generations ( in some point in the manga, Belletia is mentioning language lesson with her little niece Mousemuncher ). That's the little thing that make Felaryan harpies really unique. Without it they would just be like every other harpies of any given universe...

Having said that if you have suggestions to rephrase their entry, don't hesitate. My English is approximative at best and generally don't convey informations as well as I'd like.

Might I point out something related to this: Star Trek's Klingons. This is exactly the same thing here with harpies. On the outside the fictional race looks callous, rude, mean, evil, etc to anyone not truly familiar with Klingons. Yet once you get to know a Klingon better, you realize that they have far more depth to them then a person might think. (Honor is a really big thing with them.)

This goes for the Dungeon and Dragon's race: the Drow.

Same for the World of Warcraft race: Orcs.

Same for Star Wars race: the Sith <- Ok so maybe that race truly is an evil race that wants to enslave the entire universe!

And so on and so on. So on the surface, those not truly familiar with harpies will mostly see them as rude and crude. This means that on first impression, and to be true to harpy culture, they must come off as rude and crude the first time a character meets them and has no clue about harpy culture. Yet (And Karbo does suggest this in the wiki.) once you get to know them and their culture, you realize that they're not really rude and crude at all.

I'd say focus less on trying to change the first image of them as being rude and crude and focus more on their culture. Use the discussion of their culture to show how there is more to them then just their rude and sometimes aggressive/crude attitudes.

What Heavenless-star was saying was that as it currently stands the wiki states that no matter what, harpies are bad tempered and foul mouthed.

Karbo wrote:

However that custom is part of their culture and how they are raised and is transmitted from generations to generations ( in some point in the manga, Belletia is mentioning language lesson with her little niece Mousemuncher ). That's the little thing that make Felaryan harpies really unique. Without it they would just be like every other harpies of any given universe...

Australians are known for their casual use of expletives and insults, but that doesn't mean that if they were raised in another country they would still have those traits. Same with harpies; their language is part of their culture and their society encourages a lack of self control in regards to temper.
That needs to be made clear in the wiki.

Karbo wrote:

I honestly don't see what the big fuss is about.
Let's look at what the entry says after the rephrasing :

Quote :

Felaryan harpies in general are seen as a tough race, famous for their bad tempers, foul language and their sarcastic and mocking retorts. They can easily appear as heartless bullies to those who aren't aware of their strange customs.

I'm not saying a harpy is automatically a being with an awful personality here, but that they are seen as such and are famous for it in Felarya. And that make sense when others hear their language without knowing their custom. They have a rude reputation that's all.

You can find perfectly friendly, caring and genuinely kind harpies.... which won't prevent them to curse and threaten you nonetheless ^^
And that point I really don't want to remove it. If people find they are difficult and challenging to write about because of it ( and I agree, the scenes with Belletia in the manga were clearly not the easiest to write ), well the trait can be toned down or so, like not every harpies use it equally. Some of them could truly curse like sailors with horrible words and threats everywhere that make the original sense very hard to pick, while some could use milder language than the average of their kind.

However that custom is part of their culture and how they are raised and is transmitted from generations to generations ( in some point in the manga, Belletia is mentioning language lesson with her little niece Mousemuncher ). That's the little thing that make Felaryan harpies really unique. Without it they would just be like every other harpies of any given universe...

Having said that if you have suggestions to rephrase their entry, don't hesitate. My English is approximative at best and generally don't convey informations as well as I'd like.

Perhaps you've never been discriminated against before. You don't see how saying something like "....are famous for the bad tempers" will be taken by new people who have never written a story or seen a story about a harpy (luckily we've had good writers who knew enough to not adhere to the previous entry on harpies). If the perception of French people is that "they are famous for being dicks" then take a guess at how they'll likely be portrayed. I tried to explain to you that it's not just poor wording, IT'S A BAD IDEA.. You shouldn't leave that just because you like it.

No one likes to give up on the ideas that they like but sometimes you have to be able to accept the legitimate points made by members of your community.

Quote :

You don't see how saying something like "....are famous for the bad tempers" will be taken by new people who have never written a story or seen a story about a harpy

Honestly, if a new guy actually read the wiki before writing a story, I'd be damn proud of them =D

There's always going to be people who take one trait, or one stereotype and dial it to 11. You can't base everything around trying to stop them from doing that.

Some people think harpies are rude, some people think dridders are plotting and cruel... not every species is going to be liked or trusted by every other. There's gotta be some differentiation and misconceptions between them.

Quote :

but that they are seen as such and are famous for it in Felarya. And that make sense when others hear their language without knowing their custom. They have a rude reputation that's all.

That is actually fine with me, so long as it's made clear in the wiki that this is just perception. That harpies kind of have a reputation, rightly or wrongly, for being a bit aggressive, unpredictable and rude. This actually opens up quite a few more options, really. I'm sure there's more than a few harpies out there who are not fond of the bad reputation others of their kind, or even their own language, give them.

A species having a reputation like this with others is not necessarily a bad thing, especially in a world where people are so isolated and true information moves so slowly, if at all. Just be sure to mention that it is a misconception or stereotype, and is not necessarily true. I think it'd be fine like that.

Heavenless-star wrote:

Perhaps you've never been discriminated against before. You don't see how saying something like "....are famous for the bad tempers" will be taken by new people who have never written a story or seen a story about a harpy (luckily we've had good writers who knew enough to not adhere to the previous entry on harpies). If the perception of French people is that "they are famous for being dicks" then take a guess at how they'll likely be portrayed. I tried to explain to you that it's not just poor wording, IT'S A BAD IDEA.. You shouldn't leave that just because you like it.

No one likes to give up on the ideas that they like but sometimes you have to be able to accept the legitimate points made by members of your community.

Well I'm sorry you think it's a bad idea but I firmly disagree. It worked well until now and without that trait, Felaryan harpies would just be like any harpies in any given universe, much more generic and blander as a result.
I have no problem if you want to have some harpies with a milder language but Belletia and many others are certainly of the cursing type and I'm not going to suddenly change the whole race just like that.

Heavenless-star, at this point, I'm not sure what your point is about anymore. Is it that the tendency of harpies to punctuate their sentences with curses and insults be done away entirely, or that the dialect be more accessible in the sense that the examples in the phrasebook be specified as some of the rarer and more outstanding samples? I seriously hope it's the latter, since the trait remains, but the need of making big, flowery insults is gone.

Has anybody bothered to actually read my last two posts? They haven't been about the language as I can live with the changes made in regards to that; my last two posts have been about the portion of the wiki entry that says harpies are famous for their bad tempers. I explained why it would be ill-advised to leave that there. People need to check again. Karbo going back to the language issue feels more like an attempt to de-rail the topic I brought up. There was no reason to go back to that issue again.

My knew point was explained clearly; I don't believe applying a character trait such as having a bad temper to an entire species is a good idea. I'm getting frustrated by having to repeat myself so many times. I'll change the thread title to help some people avoid getting confused.

And have you bothered to consider that maybe you didn't word yourself properly or, you know, write an example of what should be written for the culture part and such? Unless my eyesight is going, I see no such example as "Harpies are raised in a tough environment, and as such, tend to develop a bad temper which their species is famous for. The most noticeable is their habit of punctuating their sentences with various threats and insults." or something among those lines in your posts.

No! Shady, my point was to argue that it shouldn't be there, not to find a reason to put it there. If you go back to the previous page you will see me make my points. What you're saying is actually what Karbo should have done since he so badly wants them to be famous for having bad tempers. If people can't understand my stance after reading my last three or four posts then there is no point in me frustrating myself any further than I have been for the last two years and last month especially.

I think we're taking things to extremes here.

Heavenless-Star, what is the problem if harpies have a culture that results in many harpies having a bad temper?
It's not a racial trait, it's a cultural one.

Who's suggestion is that? Is it Karbo's or yours? I don't have a problem with that explanation but unless I missed something, I never got that explanation from karbo and the wiki doesn't have it either. You see the problem here? I gave my reasons why that portion of the wiki AS IT IS NOW can't be left that way but I got no justification for it, unless Karbo saying that it adds flavor is considered justification. It can't be left in the wiki as it is. And while we're in the topic of culture, is it wide spread? Even across seas?

That's something else to consider but right now my point is that the portion of the wiki that says they are famous for their bad tempers needs to change or go.

Or be made clear that the "famous for bad tempers" is JUST a stereotype.

Heavenless-star wrote:

Who's suggestion is that? Is it Karbo's or yours? I don't have a problem with that explanation but unless I missed something, I never got that explanation from karbo and the wiki doesn't have it either. You see the problem here? I gave my reasons why that portion of the wiki AS IT IS NOW can't be left that way but I got no justification for it, unless Karbo saying that it adds flavor is considered justification. It can't be left in the wiki as it is. And while we're in the topic of culture, is it wide spread? Even across seas?

That's something else to consider but right now my point is that the portion of the wiki that says they are famous for their bad tempers needs to change or go.

Hem. you are accusing others to not read your posts but apparently you are doing exactly the same. Yes I gave an explanation :

Quote :

I'm not saying a harpy is automatically a being with an awful personality here, but that they are seen as such and are famous for it in Felarya. And that make sense when others hear their language without knowing their custom. They have a rude reputation that's all

To which you replied it was a BAD IDEA that should be removed and so.

So what is your point exactly ??
I said and I repeat that harpies are NOT rude and bad-tempered as some sort of general rule, but they are widely SEEN as such by others because of their languages and way of speaking.
That's my explanation. if you don't like it that's another matter entirely but I gave it. Please stop acting like I'm either ignoring or dodging the issue here. And while we're at it, also try a less accusatory and confrontational tone than in those last few pages, that's certainly not helping.

I responded to that post and told you why the entry could still be misleading. I stand by that. It needs to be changed or removed to prevent misunderstandings
It's easier to fix it now while we're on the topic. Suggestions have been posted by other people. I don't agree that the majority of harpies should have bad tempers but I can live with the suggested explanations that community members like AJ and Shady have just given.