An Oversight From Years Past

Okay, seriously, I've brought this up numerous times and its always shrugged away. Naga Culture.

"Oh dear he's at it again!" - Now before you click away and shrug this off, please pay attention to some very important oversights that have existed in this community since its beginning and no one's bothered to fix it.

It starts with Queen Sineria. I could go and find all the bits in the wiki that point to the fact she's THE Dridder Queen, and she was cruel, going to war, and was taken out by the Guardians because of it.

Regardless of the Guardians interference, did any of you catch the bit that's off there? No? I'll explain it.

Who did she primarily go to war with? If you know your wiki, she went to war against the Nagas.

For one, Sineria is described as having participated personally in important battles against the Nagas. I doubt she'd participate against the rag tag human tribes (or go around literally slaughtering individual Nagas with an army of Dridders). What's there to conquer? For that matter, same with the Nagas.

For years people have dismissed Naga culture: they are a loner species, and therefor there is no culture or society to explain. Now, if they don't have a culture/society (they go hand in hand, really), what would there be to protect, and why would they gather into a force to protect some non existent ideals.

It literally makes no sense. Something needs to be fixed - and if Sineria is fixed, then that means she has no war that the dridders look up to - and Idolize her, and the Victorian style culture they had, and how the Dridder war is such a central focus, why in the world would that mean Sineria was taken out by the Guardians - you might as well change that as well, and have her still alive in the Heart of an undamaged Supprozad (Speaking of which, I bet the Nagas did well enough against the Dridders to drive them to their heart, before the war took a turn for the worse against the Nagas).

I doubt that's the case. Which means there *is* a naga culture, because they apparently fought a brutal war with the dridders long ago.

Not to mention this hatred. Why would all Nagas share a hatred for Dridders when there was no society to ingrain that into the heads of young Nagalings.

For that matter, where would the Naga City be? The Dridders have Supprozad, and if there's a Naga culture to defend, there had to be a heart of their society. I doubt a bunch of rag tag tribes (not to mention individuals) could stand up to the might of the Dridder Army.

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Now as a fix, I'm willing to bet there was a Naga in particular who stood up to Sineria, and an immensely powerful one (related to Vivian? :3), and upon her (or his) defeat, put up a red flag to the Guardians that Sineria was growing too powerful.

Spoiler:

Anyway, in all seriousness, I would greatly enjoy some kind of answer to the multiple discrepancies with Dridder Culture, and the significant lack of the counterpart Naga culture - and short of repeating myself, would encourage a discussion about it.

Maybe one of the guardians was just like "Eeeeeeeep!!!! Spider!!!" And then you know.......squish.

Grave, this is about Nagas more than it is Dridders, I'm just using them as a way to prove that Nagas have a culture and society (which for some reason has been overlooked). Also, not meant to be hostile here, so if you're getting that implication, I apologize for it.

To prove my point even further, here's stuff taken from the Chronology:

22 A.U. - Queen Sineria's rule is challenged. The fact her mother Chamyra attempted to make peace with nagas is used against her, in order to depict her family as weak-willed.

>This implies there were tensions to begin with, enough to cause Sineria's mother to make peace to prevent bloodshed?

55 A.U. - The Dridder Kingdom wins a series of crushing victories against nagas. Queen Sineria takes part personally in each battle and her strong charisma and martial prowess motivate her troops. She displays a frightening cruelty and merciless determination on the battlefield.

>30 years later and still at war, that's a long fight. The rag tag Nagas are really putting up a good battle. I assume since Sineria participated in the battles it suggests that the Nagas were winning and she was forced into this to give troops morale.

99 A.U. - Nekos and Humans form an alliance and fortify the neko settlement that will later be known as Negav. Fortunately for them, the battle between Dridders and nagas rages, keeping Sineria's attention busy. However, facing the more advanced technology of Sineria's troops, the nagas looks increasingly desperate.

>About 75 years or so since the war started and the Nagas are *still* fighting. Seriously, lone creatures don't do that, and neither do rag tag tribes, it requires a Kingdom to stand on equal footing with the Nagas for this long.

119 A.U. – The great Treachery. Queen Sineria declares she wishes to make peace with the Naga Tribes at least, having pushed them far enough. She organizes a large meeting near the Giant tree with naga tribe leaders, in order to discuss the outline of new territories. In the midst of it, however, her Royal Guards murder them. The ambush is perfectly planned and very few nagas escape alive. Sineria declares that, from now on, any naga claiming to belong to a tribe shall be executed, and any claiming to lead a tribe shall be horribly tortured, then executed. After this point, the naga tribes virtually cease to exist, nagas regressing to mainly solitary lifestyles – this does not stop Sineria’s relentless hunting of them.

>To the point where Sineria had to pull off this backstabbing plan in order to actually get somewhere conclusive nearly a hundred years after the war started.

150 A.U. – Many giant nagas take the opportunity of the demise of their enemies to move and hunt in central Felarya. The insects that devastated Supprozad vanish for the most part, but not all of them. They colonize part of the Dridder forest and Tolmeshal forest, clashing repeatedly with fairies.  

>Merely 30 years after the great treachery and immediately following the destroyed empire, Nagas move back into what I presume to be their home territory. I'm willing to bet they'd try and rebuild, because, lets face it, who wouldn't, and there's nobody who can really stop them now? Thirty years to a naga is what, half of the time it takes them to mature fully? That's not long. 10 years for us humans, respectively. Also inconsequential when you can live for so long anyway.

746 A.U. – King Kerume orders a complex network of underground tunnels to be dug under where Negav will be built, as a hiding spot and defense against predator attacks. The threat from nagas especially is becoming critical.

>600 Years later it looks like Nagas have been on the rise, and this to me implies an increase in Naga culture. I'm willing to bed rag tag dridders tried to organize occasional conflicts against the Nagas but wouldn't get anywhere conclusive, especially if the Nagas can hold off Dridders to such a great extent.

769 A.U. – In an extraordinarily courageous and bold move, King Kerume meet with Chani, the leader of a neighboring giant naga tribe. The meeting is private and what happened exactly is unknown, but it is said Chani was impressed and charmed by Kerume's wit and sheer courage and took a liking to him. Afterwards, predation from nagas diminishes considerably and King Kerume is seen as a hero by many. Some nekos resent him for making deal with the enemy though.

>Tribe is clearly mentioned here, as it is in earlier entries when they were fighting the war. I'm willing to say they've recovered pretty well...

1341 A.U. - King Kerume and Chani mount a joint effort with the best nekos and nagas shamans in order to stop the darkness from advancing in their region. It's a success but it makes some nekos resent even more Kerume, who seem to go along very well with Chani. Bawdy songs are sung in some taverns involving the two.

>If Kerume and Chani, the historical settlement of Negav, and the Nagas work together to combat the darkness of Demechrelle, that means the Nagas would have had to mobilize again in order to combat it. This time there was no backstabbing.

Minus of course what happened later to both Kerume and Chani, setting nagas and nekos against each other, paving the way for Negav to be how it is now.

Honestly, considering a vital part of Negav's history involved the protection from the creatures they despise...talk about irony. That's not the point though.

This is really minor, but what you really mean is that you want to prove that Nagas *had* a culture along with Dridders back then. While they may have had a thriving society back in the day, neither of them really have much of a culture left in present time.

Since this is what I mainly work on when i'm not active, I'm going to As this question to support bael Bael. Obviously the bigger societal norms (Because they don't have a government that asks for a strict culture structure anymore doesn't mean they Have one. I can Imagine some Giant predators (Few in Number but still) Wan't to act more civilized about how they go about things. What i think what Bael is trying to say, is if you meet some individuals that wanted a community, Nat as big as their empire pass, but trying to hold thing together similary on a small scale. This is what they "could" act like. Like Tora's character: Negeyari.

Maybe they USED to have a large, thriving culture, but the onset of the war caused them to be more loner-like?

The problem with your example, vixen, is that Nege was raised by humans, so her cultural values are the same as this particular group of humans, not something that would be unique to a group of nagas who would have formed a society. It does show that nagas and the like are capable of adopting cultural values and such, but the only two examples known, Nege and Fiona (why is she still around, Cliff left a while ago) weren't raised by nagas, so whatever culture a naga could have had in a naga society is still a complete mystery.

Well if Nagas are surposed to be an unsocial and loner race.....Then why is there barely any repersentation of this? All nagas, even when they have surposed to grew up alone, are incredably social and freindly.

It's annoying when character like Garnet (no real friends growing up, bullied by Harpies) is clearly writen to envoke symapthy which would have been fine if there was a reason for someone like her to have no family to begin with. I can't see one, they are a very social race that for no apprant reason leave their young to fend for themselves.

Nagas don't seem to be an loner race....to me it's just a race defined by asshole parents.


It's really bizzare, there are humans who were raised in socitey that are more anti-socail than the nagas are.

That again is probably because everyone associated and probably still associates Crisis as the prototypical naga, completely oblivious of the fact that she was raised by fairies, an extremely social species, hence where she got her open and friendly personality. I also don't see how Garnet, is supposed to evoke sympathy. We're *told* that she has no real friends and was bullied by harpies, but of the two pictures Emi made of her, she always has a shit-eating grin on her face and one of them *shows* her getting along fine with Jora, and even one strip Karbo made featuring her shows her on friendly terms with a Erica, a harpy, one of the creatures who allegedly bullied her. So on top of being a completely worthless character that's just there, her backstory and what we see of her, up to and including her personality, don't match up at ALL! She's almost like Aurora done wrong. Aurora's timid personality matches with her backstory where she spent many years alone just trying to barely survive. Garnet's hyperactive and borderline brain-dead ditziness personality does not convey that she was allegedly lonely and bullied by harpies.

Well aside from the fact that the ability to be social clearly shows the ability for culture, that and other things I could use as support for that claim...doesn't account for the human error in representation of them. Still, they're sentient (sapient? non humans, they're not in the sapiens species) creatures who can reason and think for themselves, and they'd know that their children would have the better chance at survival if they parented them. That, and the fact when creatures reproduce they do it to keep their race alive, not to condemn their kids to death. That's always been my argument for why nagas would raise children and not let them loose when they're babies, like regular non sapient snakes.

Still, That all just proves how they're capable of culture, but its the wiki that states they do have one, and the problem I've had is people just ignoring that. Some people, like you guys seem to recognize that they're capable of one, but nothing is done about it. Nagas are largely, totally left alone.

Granted we haven't done much to further expand on Dridders, but they have way more culture laid out than Nagas and Fairies. Nagas have tribes, this is clearly stated in the chronology.

That, and, merely three decades after the defeat of Sineria and her massive army, the nagas weren't under pressure, to, you know, stay out of tribes. The only reason they were loners was because Sineria forced them to be, and the only reason she had the power to do that was because of the backstabbing she did during the supposed "peace talks". After her defeat at the hands of guardians (yes, two were present apparently), the Dridders lose all influence in the Naga's region. Why wouldn't the Nagas rebuild? They'd have no pressure NOT to, and they'd have every incentive too, that, and they already were starting to go further south, merely 30 years later. On top of that, there's multiple entries implying that they were thriving, and like I said, couldn't fend of Demechrelle's darkness with the Neko King Kerume (who should have a Negav Holiday after him, by the way) without a present society, period.

Anyway got my poli sci class to go to, and I'm late, so see ya later XD.

Maybe super unsocial nagas don't make for interesting stories? Just because people write their nagas being super friendly with lots of friends doesn't mean they all are. There is a lot of writer bias going on in stories, and there's really nothing you can do about that.

What I don't understand is the idea that giant species ever had the ability to create societies in the first place. There's already a disparity between how commonly they appear in fan works and how rare they're SUPPOSED to be in the wild. How is it possible that such supposedly rare beings could get enough of themselves together to actually create civilizations, let alone kingdoms with armies that go to war with as-of-now incredibly vaguely described tribes of nagas, which are also implied to be civilizations comprised of giants?

I fully agree with Bael. We need to develop some kind of old naga society that was destroyed by the Naga/Dridder war. If I may be so bold, that war could also be used as the cause for why nagas and dridders are supposedly so rare. The war could have nearly wiped out both species. I also agree that they could be rebuilding their culture and society. Not sure what kind of society they'd make though.

As for Nagas being unsocial and loners, that could apply only to how they treat other races. I know of plenty of fantasy races that are social and have groups of friends and families with members of their species, but are seen as unsocial and loners because they either ignore or are down right hostile to different species. Nagas could have large family bonds and be social with other nagas, but at the same time be very unsociable towards Fairies, Elves, Giants, ect. This would also fit perfectly with the Naga/Dridder war past, as the war could have made the nagas distrust other species.

And Nyaha, there are a number of answers to your question. It could be that before the war they were more numerous. Or it could be like the Elves and Dwarves from the Inheratence series, where they're so hard to find outside of their kingdom that some people think they're a myth, but once you reach those kingdoms they're everywhere.

Thank you Nergal

Remember, the wiki states: 769 A.U. – In an extraordinarily courageous and bold move, King Kerume meet with Chani, the leader of a neighboring giant naga tribe...

Being one of many. Its clear they are/have rebuilt. Who knows, hidden city? Or not. Its not developed so its not added to the map.

Its there though and it has to exist, which makes me feel like some things are in the center of Felarya's map and making it a bit too cluttered there. The Tonorion Hive, Duluren Base, Lataaran Temple, Great Tree, Safe Harbor, It feels like there's stuff everywhere. There IS a blank spot between the Great Tree and the Dimensional Gate of Ur-Sagol...hrm...and Nagas WERE conquered by Ur-Sagol before right? Maybe Nagas gathered outside the city, and the tribes all came together there and started building a city a short distance away because of that? I dunno.

Anyway, class again, see you guys later.

Actually, now that I think about it, giant sapient predators can't be ultra rare either.  Maybe I'm thinking too deep, but if they reproduce on a somewhat regular basis, they'd have to encounter a mate, meaning there would have to be more than one giant in any decently sized chunk of the map.  I guess a way to explain why they appear to be rare is because you're just as likely to run into any other kind of wild beast in the area or carnivorous plants if any grow around, but since there's a much greater variety of non-sapient predators, a group of humans who venture in the wild is more likely to run into one of the non-sapient beasts than a sapient predator. And since those encounters tend to end very badly, you could say another reason why men and giants don't run into each other very often is because something got the humans first.

Not sure that Nagas would go as far to have a hidden city. The thing about cities is that they are really hard to build, humans cities only came about because of trade that eventuality grew into big Business. Naga's would need constant trading of resources from other places in order to build such a place. A hidden ecomony is a starved ecomony.

Unless they are a war mongering community that attacks and take from others, but that would put a big negative light on Nagas, woulden't make them any better than the Dridders. I don't think people would be up for that idea.

Shady Knight wrote:

Actually, now that I think about it, giant sapient predators can't be ultra rare either.  Maybe I'm thinking too deep, but if they reproduce on a somewhat regular basis, they'd have to encounter a mate, meaning there would have to be more than one giant in any decently sized chunk of the map.  I guess a way to explain why they appear to be rare is because you're just as likely to run into any other kind of wild beast in the area or carnivorous plants if any grow around, but since there's a much greater variety of non-sapient predators, a group of humans who venture in the wild is more likely to run into one of the non-sapient beasts than a sapient predator.  And since those encounters tend to end very badly, you could say another reason why men and giants don't run into each other very often is because something got the humans first.

I fully agree with this. You basically have a 1-in-150, or however many predator species there are in Felarya, to run into a specific predatory species. So chances are you'd run into a Kensha Beast or something else first.

You can also couple that with my theory that Dridders and Nagas almost wiped themselves out in the war by looking at other giant preds like Fairies and Harpies. Fairies are swarming everywhere in the Fairy Kingdom, and from what I've seen/read the Ascarlin Mountains have a bunch of Harpy flocks. Neither species went to war and they're doing fine.

Though now I have to wonder...if the Nagas and Dridders did have a kingdom or some such thing, do you think the Guardians would have destroyed it if it had become too large like Ur-Sagol tried to do? I would think so at first because of when they did to Demechrelle. But what of the Fairy Kingdom? It may not be expanding, but that's still a huge chunk of Felarya. =o

Well one of the Guardians is the Lord High Lord, I mean, Queen of All Fairies, so you know... veto power and crap.

Shady Knight wrote:

Well one of the Guardians is the Lord High Lord, I mean, Queen of All Fairies, so you know... veto power and crap.

I always thought that to become a guardian you develop immense magical power and manage to keep a neutral alignment for the sake of balance in Felarya. For anyone playing games with morality, that's an astoundingly hard thing to do.

Anyway, DarkOne, I'm not quite sure if I actually did say hidden, but what I meant was a city we have not created that would be there due to inevitability. It can be a largely ruined one like Supprozad too, but there are definitely Naga Tribes around in number. I would also wager these tribes trade and share cultures, not to mention resources that could be used to form a city to begin with.

Also, Nergal: Its been a little less than two thousand years, and I think the Nagas and Dridders will have recovered by that point.

O-O Oh, I failed to notice that it had been that long. XD

Now that's a great  post and well thought out, but before I run off, I'm just gonna put this little thought in there:

If Nagas have low tech and no real combat magic, in addition to being nomadic, how do they stand up against hordes of dridders well enough to drag a war on over 100 years to the point where Sineria even has to use some under handed tactic to win?

I could probably make a comparison with Ancient Rome and the tribes they obliterated (with their horde, an army is just an organized horde, after all).

The Nagas obviously had magic potion

Actually, Nagas do have an affinity for magic. Heck, the whole idea with nagas is that they develop an affinity for a particular elemental magic as they get older. I don't see how some of them wouldn't use it for battle. In fact, Dridders tend to have a very low affinity for magic themselves, preferring to craft weapons and armor instead.

Nice thread ^^

And I agree that nagas culture needs to be more developed

Ilceren wrote:

This thread has a number of ideas, but also of misconceptions and things that have been overlooked. Let's see if I can help get all those into a more coherent picture and, with that, we can try to develop a Naga culture that can fit in the still empty space it has in the Wiki.

First and most important of all, Nagas are constantly mentioned to be tribal. There's an exception at the time when they were dispersed under Sineria's threat, but they quickly gathered in tribes after that, as seen in the Chronology.

Therefore, one can say that Nagas are strongly tribal. It doesn't need to be a kingdom as Bael suggested, an accomplished chief can gather and unite most tribes against a common enemy, such as the Dridders. This tribal lifestyle makes sense in many ways, much more so if they are nomad tribes, and the description of Nagas and their mentions in history only add to it. Nagas are said to be adaptable -nomads have to be much more adaptable than sedentary tribes- and also have a greater appetite than normal. Imagine having a tribe settled in a place and each of the Nagas having to eat twelve humans or an equivalent a day; food would quickly run out. So it only makes sense that a Naga tribe is nomad. This can be seen in a quick note in the Chronology where the Nagas move in to Central Felarya in order to hunt. Yes, hunt, it is also mentioned that Nagas prefer prey and only rarely eat fruit and vegetables, another point against sedentarism.

It is, though, contradicting that Nagas are mentioned to be peaceful when they clashed so frequently with almost every empire in history. While it can't be used in favour or against tribality with a good deal of assumptions, it would be coherent that those clashes are generally produced by individual tribes when hunting, as they wouldn't normally pay mind to imperial borders and such, and just come in to feed. Then when a threat comes back to repel them, it's the time when they gather a few tribes together and oppose the other force.

This goes well with another characteristic of Nagas; they are mentioned to use weapons only rarely. This is supported by the fact they are mentioned to be clearly inferior to Dridders technologically, who use up to gunpowder weapons -yes, giants with guns-. A tribal lifestyle is coherent with a low level of technology, as opposed to a kingdom, where either magic or technology -even both- are to thrive. Naga spellcasters are mentioned to be shamans, even when most Nagas are magically inclined, which further supports tribality.


So, to sum up all we know -assumed, rather-, we have that Nagas gather in nomad tribes under a chief. They move around to where they can find food, ignoring pre-established territories and often clashing with giant-sized locals. This nomad lifestyle also means that they don't make cities, which is the reason why they are never mentioned to have one. As they can't spin threads like Dridders -and also adding the fetish aspect- they would most probably go around nude or dressed with natural elements, possibly leaving the more resistant animal hides or armour to make containers in which to carry their few wares as they travel around. Commerce is scarce, as is contact between tribes, which slows the exchange of information and ideas; technology is basic and magic is probably passed down the line of shamans.

That is more or less what I can gather at this time of night, or morning, rather. Give it a few thoughts and check if there's something I left out which may contradict some of my statements. That way, we can start to think about a base culture that's more or less generalized, then we can mention a few prominent tribes and develop them further.



And before I forget, Guardians seem to act only when they sense a power about to overthrow balance; to destroy and place a single race over the others. They acted on the Sagolians as their emperor was presumably going to attempt a great conquering effort against giants. They acted on the Dridder Kingdom as they were preparing to obliterate all nearby human and Neko settlements. They, in turn, waited a whole hundred years to seal Déméchrelle, probably because things were getting ugly up north or because darkness was about to make a second coming south after being blocked by the combined shamans of Nagas and Nekos. They didn't act on the Elven Empire because, even if the Empire conquered a great area, they integrated the conquered races in the Empire instead of exterminating them.

Seeing that, as the Fairy Kingdom isn't expanding and also isn't making an attempt to erase the presence of other races from their territory, I'd say that even if Nemyra wasn't a Guardian herself, the Fairy Kingdom wouldn't be attacked by the Guardians.

Great job, you summed things up very well here
indeed I think Nagas being tribal make the most sense . It also create a big difference of society with dridders and make the clashes between the two races something that was going to happens at some points or another as nagas don't recognize borders.

And yes nagas being mentioned as peaceful is clearly a contradiction indeed ^^;