Can a leopard change its spots?

But they don't suggest a complete recovery. It could very well have been only one of the very, very few remaining tribes. Anyway, I just prefer nagas to be solitary creatures, giant ones at least.

Giant ones are fine solitary. Giant animals back then could have died off. Make it impossible for a giant tribe to have enough food.

So yea, ravana3k has 2 good examples of this  both ends of the spectrum...

Jade USED to eat people, now she's devoted her life to protecting them.

Jora has become a predator...


Other examples include greyman101's exona who amongst others quit cold turkey, though she once gobbled up people. Frenchsnack wrote a whole debate between a predator and ex predator (Practical ethics) about this very thing. Ellie went from human to predator.

There's examples all around, I guess what I'm missing is why is this even a question?

The question is "If you somehow convinced a giant, assumed to have preyed on humans for a long time and has been convinced without any magical means or anything, that he or she shouldn't eat humans or any of the common small sapient species, would it be able to easily keep on that new mentality, or would it be a case of old habits dying hard and relapsing after a while for whatever reason?"

I guess another way to phrase it would be "How hard is it to convince a giant who has been taught for so long to not eat humans in the first place, and how hard is it for them to even break the habit?"

Oh, also, due to Retcon Power, Jade now was never a dedicated predator even in her own life, she just wiped out that one village out of desperation and now has PTSD flashbacks of their utter terror as she went Hungry Godzilla on them, and witnessing all the suffering she inadvertently brought them is what inspires her to not eat them.

turboman500 wrote:

I guess what I'm missing is why is this even a question?

I was not asking for examples in Felarya fiction as an author will bend logic and narrative rules to serve the particular story he has in mind, I was trying to bring about a discussion about the realistic ramifications of a predator changing it's ways.

Because there's no point really talking about ethics if it isn't even remotely relevant to practical matters, because the so called "moral conversations" would be nothing but idealistic sentimentalism, more about what people (the authors) want rather than what would actually be possible in such a situration. Which is dishonest to present as a moral discussion, not to menction outright pretentious.

Saavy?

Given that most of what is known about Felarya today, Had to come from an author at some point... Kind of a moot rebuttal...

To be blunt though, yes it's entirely possible. Why wouldn't it be given the intelligence most display? Obviously the willingness has to be there too, but it's entirely possible. Especially given that most preds have some form of moral compass.

I believe what you're really curious about is can it be done BELIEVABLY in most instances. That's actually the hard part. Best I can tell, everyone here seems deep thinking enough to know it can and does happen, it's just seldom done where it makes sense. I sort of touched on this issue in one of my two group posts on DA.

To be perfectly honest, if someone did it right, you'd have a very compelling story and characters to read about - because there would be many challenges.

I should also clarify that doing it right does not mean simply using an alternate, or mirrored universe... Someone I respect as a writer made the case (a good one) that it's takes near 0 effort to do that. I agree with him on this for most situations you'd try this in. Working within "the system" takes far more creativity than not... Hence my thoughts on how good a story or series illustrating what the OP asked would probably be one of the best in the community.

turboman500 wrote:

Given that most of what is known about Felarya today, Had to come from an author at some point... Kind of a moot rebuttal...

To be blunt though, yes it's entirely possible. Why wouldn't it be given the intelligence most display? Obviously the willingness has to be there too, but it's entirely possible. Especially given that most preds have some form of moral compass.

I believe what you're really curious about is can it be done BELIEVABLY in most instances. That's actually the hard part. Best I can tell, everyone here seems deep thinking enough to know it can and does happen, it's just seldom done where it makes sense. I sort of touched on this issue in one of my two group posts on DA.

To be perfectly honest, if someone did it right, you'd have a very compelling story and characters to read about - because there would be many challenges.

I should also clarify that doing it right does not mean simply using an alternate, or mirrored universe... Someone I respect as a writer made the case (a good one) that it's takes near 0 effort to do that. I agree with him on this for most situations you'd try this in. Working within "the system" takes far more creativity than not... Hence my thoughts on how good a story or series illustrating what the OP  asked would probably be one of the best in the community.

I must agree this weighs on me sometimes when I make "safe" preds. With Kharl I think I did the best job. He met an elf and actually got to know her and told his parents. Got tossed out for that he did. ^^; I must admit I have to wonder now why he wasn't more bitter about that or if I shouldn't add some realistic relapses or near relapses in his bio. Or maybe do a scene with him looking at other humans he doesn't know and have metaphorical devil show up to torment him...Maybe a literal one! XD

But other than Kharl I do worry I make too many "safe-without-a-believable-reason" preds. Sometimes I worry my crowning jewel Clare may be one. I mean yes she's not 100% safe to begin with. She does eat humanoids, but only bad ones. Though in most stories and RPs this makes her 80% safer than most giant nagas you'd run into. Plus I only used the "justice-vore" style because she was honoring a mentor to Scala once. Now that I'm actually writing it out it makes me wonder...should I Turn Left? See what Clare would be like with more realistic challengs? Or should I just stick to working on less "successful" characters I wonder? That's the trick there. Do your tweak a working profile in the hopes it gets better? Or do you stick with what works? I think that's a big factor in why you see so many "unrealistic safe" preds.

Grave wrote:

Interesting take on it Karbo, but then how do nekos fit into that? They live much like the humans do and for that matter tiny and neko villages are much alike.

So would it be easier for a neko to not view a tiny as food than it is for giant predators viewing humanoids?

Well for nekos living in large cities such as Negav, yes. A tiny found by a neko isn't going to be automatically eaten.
It's frowned upon by humans and since some nekos try their best to integrate themselves, it makes sense they would make some efforts to avoid eating tinies as well. This clearly varies from one neko to another though.

jedi-explorer wrote:

I think that's a big factor in why you see so many "unrealistic safe" preds.

Actually I think the biggest factor that contributes to 'Unrealistic safe." preds is the fact that the Felarya predators wern't realistic to begin with, nor were they intended to be.

The predators are survivalists in a harsh world that requires them to adopt a form of 'Social Darwinism' Survival of the fittest mentality, however for the sake of keep the setting 'Sexy' and 'Light humoured' we never get to see much of the stress that predators go through in order to justify such psychology.

Because understandbly Karbo doesn't want to create such dark characters (or go through the angst involved) we get a more sugar coated explaination instead. That the predators are simply 'naive and didn't know humans were peoples!'
To be fair though, Karbo does occationaly show cases where Pred's lives arn't as lofty as they appear, like his picture of faries being eaten by a plant, but many people seem to misinterpret this as simply 'long needed retribution' for the faries' acts, rather than seeing it as something that the faries have always had to live with and could have shaped their views on life to begin with.
But that's the thing people fail to grasp, Karbo doesn't want to make his world a Angstfest and so instead takes the comedy route, there's only so much angst of it he can fit in before Felarya loses the orginal tone he intended.

Which is fine for a story simply designed for a fetish or one that is just for the lols.......Rubbish for ethical discussions and Pred to human relationships.

When someone wants a 'freindly' pred or a 'Pred related ethical discussion', they don't realise that what they are actually asking for is in fact a 'Flanderized' portrayal of animal like mentality of 'survival of the fittest' be suddenly treated litterally and at face value...and the result is a interaction that is that absolutely refuses to ground Karbo's cartoonish characters into someone more concrete so this interaction can do it's job, and so comes off 'unrealistic' 'cheesy' and laughably Narmtastic

Karbo wrote:

Grave wrote:

Interesting take on it Karbo, but then how do nekos fit into that? They live much like the humans do and for that matter tiny and neko villages are much alike.

So would it be easier for a neko to not view a tiny as food than it is for giant predators viewing humanoids?

Well for nekos living in large cities such as Negav, yes.  A tiny found by a neko isn't going to be automatically eaten.
It's frowned upon by humans and since some nekos try their best to integrate themselves, it makes sense they would make some efforts to avoid eating tinies as well. This clearly varies from one neko to another though.

So basically nekos have to follow the same rules in Negav as Fairies do in Kortriki or do you think it's more "illegal" and thus there's a fine if a tiny, especially one with citizenship in Pelnepi is eaten by a neko with witnesses to the crime? XD Why am imaging a smokey dark lit bar somewhere with a secret room where one can go to eat tinies? Then suddenly several NCP Cops dressed in robes and fedoras pulling out some rods and shooting up the place?

Considering that eating a sapient creature would result in its death, thus can be classified as murder within the limits of a city that enforce laws against such things, I can't imagine why eating tinies would be illegal.

Shady Knight wrote:

Considering that eating a sapient creature would result in its death, thus can be classified as murder within the limits of a city that enforce laws against such things, I can't imagine why eating tinies would be illegal.

How interesting.

So Tinies are not sapient? Or are they just not sapient enough - because they are not big enough?

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or if you actually took that post at face value.

Yeah eating tinies is apprantly "illegal".......just really badly enforced

Then again, how often do you see them outside of Pelnepi? The streets of Negav are already super crowded, they'd be far more likely to die by being stepped on by someone who didn't notice them.

We got really far off topic from "Can a predator realistically change its stance on sapient preys and how would that affect them?" haven't we?

Shady Knight wrote:

We got really far off topic from "Can a predator realistically change its stance on sapient preys and how would that affect them?" haven't we?

Well I did try getting the thread back on track, not that anyone paid any attention

Okay - to make the Answer as short and painless as possible - here comes Obama-Time:

Yes, he can.

And he does.

It happens in many Variations sporadically across the whole Animal Kingdom - to be Behaviour of the Anormal Kingdom. Why? I don´t know - in Fact no one does. But Nature tries Things out - there are even Gay Bulls and Stuff. Nature tries new Ways - like some Fish, going on the Beach just 410000000 Years ago (in a Time where Dinosaurs were pure SciFi). If this hasn´t happen, we would not be here. There are even Birds that refuse to fly anymore - and others who do it nearly 24/7. Mostly Predator´s Behaviour is disturbingly predictable - but there are these rare Occasions, where anything can happen. And this is what will always make even this World a Place for Wonders.

Bandur kahn wrote:

Okay - to make the Answer as short and painless as possible - here comes Obama-Time:

Yes, he can.

And he does.

It happens in many Variations sporadically across the whole Animal Kingdom - to be Behaviour of the Anormal Kingdom. Why? I don´t know - in Fact no one does. But Nature tries Things out - there are even Gay Bulls and Stuff. Nature tries new Ways - like some Fish, going on the Beach just 410000000 Years ago (in a Time where Dinosaurs were pure SciFi). If this hasn´t happen, we would not be here. There are even Birds that refuse to fly anymore - and others who do it nearly 24/7. Mostly Predator´s Behaviour is disturbingly predictable - but there are these rare Occasions, where anything can happen. And this is what will always make even this World a Place for Wonders.

As for me, i wouldn't use a theory to try and explain how things change over time. And the fact that all the predators we're talking about is sentient and even more or less sapient. Going way back on topic. The only reason they don't give a damn is because they are usually the apex and vertex of societies in Felarya. They're bigger than everyone else mostly (aside from each other) and have a capability to call more shots on what's below them. Which is us and people similar to our size. The only way to change someones mind like that was mentioned way earlier:

Darkone wrote:

Actually I think the biggest factor that contributes to 'Unrealistic safe." preds is the fact that the Felarya predators wern't realistic to begin with, nor were they intended to be.

Yeah I agree with that sentence and what you have said below. Problem is Is how we're individualizing and focusing on the aspects of the character (and very certain aspects) To be how portrayed how they are, and then to do that with a "realistic" style. I'm not much of a writer, but one of the best ways i know how characters get realistic is by giving the character a certain set of principals based on where they came around, who are they maybe trying to resemble in the real world that's relatable so the author and the reader can say "oh! i get it."

Jedi If i recall you were having trouble with that, and most people do, it's understandable because it takes a lot of work to made a society in a character and more specifically a pred. A thing I like to think about since i often and love roleplay as a predator if i'm going to empathize as a pred is this: "How was I raised."What are my reasons for thinking i'm better or worse of someone who's smaller than even though they can have the same thought process and emotions as me"-"What would my parents or offspring say"-"Does this conflict with the current morals I placed, or perhaps, i need a new direction"- and finally "I'm on a frontier Deathworld, does any of this really apply to me? will it really change anything like it was before or should i bend the rules to how i would like to view them?" (That last one is mostly coming from a offworlder pred's perspective.) Not so easy now huh. Turboman500 mentioned it back then why simply. You got a lot to think about with the back ground of your characters, even if they're just supports. Though don't be Held down thinking your not good enough to visualize that. A lot of felarya is cute and playful humor, in fan fiction and canon. Though now like Darkone said, people wanna see it with a realistic and dark approach to dramatize it to their writing. Which is also fine, that is needed.

So in my perspective. Yeah you can definitely make a predator change his or her mind on the issue of ethics in eating a sentient/sapient being. Your just going to have a rough time of explaining his or her does and dont's of why they do it and then conveying that artistically through story (and that's if you're trying to be realistic). To pull that off

ravaging vixen wrote:

Yeah I agree with that sentence and what you have said below. Problem is Is how we're individualizing and focusing on the aspects of the character (and very certain aspects) To be how portrayed how they are, and then to do that with a "realistic" style. I'm not much of a writer, but one of the best ways i know how characters get realistic is by giving the character a certain set of principals based on where they came around, who are they maybe trying to resemble in the real world that's relatable so the author and the reader can say "oh! i get it."

Yeah, really if you think about it, Felarya is a massive minefield for anyone who wants any of it realisticly or seriously. Your not just 'tweaking the old motor' as much as 'pulling the motor out of the car body and putting a new one in'

Felarya was first created as a fettish setting, Karbo set up the predators to be a visual metaphor for 'Femdom fantasies' and threw a forest setting around it for a bit of narrative context. The appeal is seeing a powerful Feminine' character dominate, everything else should be complementary to this theme, otherwise it loses it's orginal function. Karbo might put a story to his work, but otherall it's too surreal and silly to be taken seriously and is certainly not surposed to be taken literally.

So when someone decides they want to write a more 'dramatic' story, they have to realise how many gears need to be changed in order it to work. Because there's 'Sticking to canon' and then there's 'Sticking to the story mechanics'
Sticking to the general layout and idea is good, but sticking to the same depiction and logic is ridiculous. You have to recontextualize everything to fit the story you have chosen to tell. (Assuming the author even bothered to work out what their story is about, because some people in the community clearly don't)
Even if your writing just for fun it's something to think about for the sake of writing something that makes sense. For example there's no point trying to write a serious story of humans fighting predators if the Predators are still 'Cartoon Femdom archetypes with large bosoms'....people will think your trying to be funny.
It will Come off like this
Which would be fine if funny was the intention, otherwise...

If the story decides that the predators arn't a femdom fantasy anymore, then it shoulden't play by femdom rules and find a new context for them, one that doesn't completely wreck the setting. Obviously without the fetish (and without a new context) one would assume the setting would default to 'Fantasy adventure'
As in, Gaints eat people because they are...well, gaints! Wild savage sapients lacking civilized behavior that play by 'law of the jungle' because it's the only way of life they have known.

That would work in the case of most predators, but I see a lot more opportunity for deeper narratives there. Take a character like Lily, for example. She preys almost exclusivly on humans when possible, not out of taste preference or because that's the law of the wild, but out of revenge. I think, based on what I've heard in this thread, that many writers forget that predators can make deep characters, too. I think the first step toweard what you've just described is to treat them as such, not just fantasies or sex icons, but people with thier own lives, ideals, pasts and wants. I think that information would be very helpful to all Felarya writers.

You rock!

I wasn´t able to put it into Words - but this is the Reason, why Kaela is NOT hunting sapient Beings - because once she was human sized, too. And even if they were 3 Inches tall and Kaela would recognize them - they have Dreams, Fears, Sorrows, Hopes and loved Ones, too. So she goes for Sea Food.

Nyaha wrote:

That would work in the case of most predators, but I see a lot more opportunity for deeper narratives there. Take a character like Lily, for example. She preys almost exclusivly on humans when possible, not out of taste preference or because that's the law of the wild, but out of revenge.

Well 'law of the jungle' is a pretty broad term, Lily's revenge on humans pretty much come under Frontier justice which pretty much counts as law of the jungle since it's what humans tend to resort to when there is no effective law system, and therefore makes sense on Lily's part.

Plus faries are well known in folklore to be the vengeful type.

Nyaha wrote:

I think, based on what I've heard in this thread, that many writers forget that predators can make deep characters, too. I think the first step toweard what you've just described is to treat them as such, not just fantasies or sex icons,

Yeah, I often do wonder how much 'gender politics' actually fall into Felarya stories (either deliberately or accidently) With Karbo's works it's quite deliberate (it's femdom afterall) but it gets very awkward when the story is written to be taken seriously but the subtext is still the same. Too many Felarya stories that claim to be about "Humans trying to survive within a fantasy world." strike me as being more about 'Heroic Male sterotypes fighting against sexy female oppressers/ A lone male sterotype showing these females how to behave'

Not that I am oppossed to the reversal, it's just very uncomfortable when it seems to want to be taken seriously. Femdom at least knows its silly and runs with it.