Teleportation is implausible. Make it impossible.

Veteran knight Posts : 290 Join date : 2014-10-10

Teleportation defeats the purpose of the setting. Therefore I suggest that Felarya's dimensional instability makes any astral transportation extremely volatile.

The most common balancing factors I will address below.

"Teleportation is super rare. Only Lady Lesona can do that in all of Felarya."

Rarity is no limitation. It works and is in high demand, so people will find a way to facilitate it. Have two dozen mages set up a ritual circle and Negav can pop cargo and units back and forth. They could even keep the circle and magi-tek it into something permanent. And it's not rare at all. Just look at preds like the canopy fairies, and succubae.

"Teleportation can not work if you don't know where you're going."

Scouts could be deployed. They could act as a beacon, retrieve attuned objects, plant sensors, etc. Or use that circle for divination.

"Teleportation is blocked by thick materials, so you can't use it everywhere. It is unreliable."

Even just getting there would be invaluable, but you actually could raid temples or so. Teleport over a digging crew and they can have a 9 to 5 job bypassing all traps, and porting back for dinner. Or just teleport out pieces of the walls--and into any pred that comes by. After all, that is the danger of teleporting: that you end up in a solid object and die. This is it being used offensively, and an instant kill.

There is simply no canonically way that Humans can teleport easily."

Then they get some canon stuff to work for them, like brainwashing some canopy fairies. Maybe breed them even? To quote the wiki, "it's as natural as breathing for them."

Tl;Dr: If it exists, people will find a way to abuse it.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/teleport.html#teleportRead these rules, young padawan, and see that you are overreacting.

Let's post what we've discussed so far, shall we, Scry?

The Chat:

Both of us wrote:: [19:14:05 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Alright, let's start by how it'd work if we were assuming 3.5 rules.
[19:14:10 18/08/2015] Scryangi : Anyway, astral travels mucked up 3.5. What's the use of a temple if you could just walk through wall? What use is a king if any wizard can just teleport in an attack
[19:14:18 18/08/2015] CauldronBorn24 : Sent
[19:14:23 18/08/2015] Scryangi : yay
[19:14:27 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Astral Travels? I never heard of that one.
[19:15:00 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Anyway, let's assume you've got a wizard to cast Teleport.
[19:15:08 18/08/2015] Scryangi : mhm
[19:15:36 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Let's assume the wizard is level 9. Let's not lose our heads, that should be acceptable.
[19:16:29 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : His price is going to be 5 x 9 x 10 gp. CL times SL times 10 gp. Times 2, he has to teleport himself back.
[19:16:36 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : We'll ignore for now familiarity factors, they're BS anyway.
[19:17:07 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : But the thing is, it costs 900 gp to get the guy to TP.
[19:17:39 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : And he can bring, at L9, 3 other people. So it's 300 gp per person. We'll ignore for now spells per day and other BS.
[19:17:51 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : You with me so far?
[19:18:36 18/08/2015] Scryangi : Mhm, and thinking about Red Wizard's circles
[19:19:23 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Assuming you're 3 people and the treasure is EL 3, you'll break even.
[19:19:39 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Assuming you're 6 people and the treasure is EL 6, you'll also break even.
[19:19:46 18/08/2015] Scryangi : Are we still talking about industrial teleporting?
[19:19:59 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Yes. Industrial teleporting to a dungeon.
[19:20:09 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : One of the cases you mentioned.
[19:20:39 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Now, as you go up to higher levels, it starts getting better.
[19:20:43 18/08/2015] Scryangi : I meant a whole guild teleporting over, with ways to transport a lot more than 3 people
[19:20:57 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : It'll still cost you 300 gp per person.
[19:21:25 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : And if you make it a whole guild, let's say, 12 people, that's 3600 gp.
[19:21:50 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Your treasure better be at least L9, 4000 gp, to get a profit of 400/12 gp per capita.
[19:22:55 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Gets better the higher the level, obviously.
[19:23:03 18/08/2015] Scryangi : Stabs. This is Felarya. Adventures reward supposedly priceless treasures. And why bring the people back? Set up a mining camp
[19:23:13 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Oh, you're right.
[19:23:24 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : We're not calculating the way back. Double the cost.
[19:23:49 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : 12 people cost 7200 gp, then, and you need an EL 11 treasure to get a 25 gp share.
[19:24:33 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : It gets decent with an EL 14 treasure, where you're only spending a bit under 50% of the return to get the treasure.
[19:25:54 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : But the obvious question follows. Where are you getting 300 gp per capita to start with?
[19:26:43 18/08/2015] Scryangi : Stabs, give my character a few hundred thousand gold and she makes a permanent portal that goes anywhere in the jungle. For an instant airport that is cheap
[19:27:01 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Where do I get a few hundred thousand gold?
[19:27:09 18/08/2015] Scryangi : from the government?
[19:27:27 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Also, that assumes your character even exists.
[19:27:29 18/08/2015] Scryangi : You're actually offering a risk free instant way to deplot troops, goods, workers, etc
[19:27:36 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : I could go into demographics rules.
[19:27:38 18/08/2015] Scryangi : deploy*
[19:28:23 18/08/2015] Scryangi : I am not assuming that my character exists. I assume that in a magi-teck world people can mass teleport
[19:28:43 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : What level is your character supposed to be?
[19:29:01 18/08/2015] Scryangi : And I don't like that to exist in Felarya. She could do that from level 5, I think
[19:29:05 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : And does she have 200 days, one for each 1000 gp, to build the gate?
[19:30:44 18/08/2015] Scryangi : She could do it in one day, but even so, is 200 days not very fast for an airport?
[19:32:18 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : You can do anything with enough splatbooks.
[19:32:34 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : But you need to convince the GM first that the government would give your character 200.000 gp.
[19:33:28 18/08/2015] Scryangi : Stabs, is the super rare metal from Felarya not worth more than a one time investment of 200.000?
[19:34:21 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Ascarlin? It is, we assume, worth more.
[19:51:00 18/08/2015] Scryangi : Stabs, I did foresee someone telling me that teleporting is too expensive for a single mage. That is why I included it in my post. With enough mages you can set up a ritual for no cost at all.
[19:51:52 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Again, it depends on what splatbooks you allow.
[19:51:59 18/08/2015] Scryangi : and what about making a non-human do it? Mind controlled canopy fairies? Angels? Hordes of frogs?
[19:52:22 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Scry, what would we want teleportation for if we could mind-control fairies?
[19:52:28 18/08/2015] Scryangi : Point is that apparently teleporting can be done cheap and en masse
[19:52:38 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : No, that's just your point.
[19:52:48 18/08/2015] Scryangi : it's the canon's point
[19:52:57 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : You're the only one saying that if it can be done at all, it can be done cheap and en masse.
[19:53:09 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : In fact, it's your starting point.
[19:53:18 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Rarity is no limitation. It works and is in high demand, so people will find a way to facilitate it. Have two dozen mages set up a ritual circle and Negav can pop cargo and units back and forth. They could even keep the circle and magi-tek it into something permanent. And it's not rare at all. Just look at preds like the canopy fairies, and succubae.
[19:53:24 18/08/2015] Scryangi : how much does it cost a canopy fairy to teleport?
[19:53:34 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Let me check.
[19:54:02 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Canopy fairies are famous for their excellent skills in dimensional magic. Phasing in and out of this dimension is as natural as breathing to them which, needless to say, makes them extremely dangerous.
[19:54:18 18/08/2015] Scryangi : sounds like nearly free to me
[19:54:23 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Mentions phasing, but doesn't state that extends to teleportation.
[19:55:30 18/08/2015] Nyaha : Isn't phasing in and out of a dimension basically teleporting?
[19:55:46 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : If it doesn't allow you to go from Japan to Paris, no.
[19:55:53 18/08/2015] Scryangi : isn't "dimensional magic" something different than phasing themselves?
[19:56:00 18/08/2015] Amaroq : no nyaha because while phased out you still move normally
[19:56:16 18/08/2015] Nyaha : If you phase out of one dimension, you're putting your matter in a different one. How's that any easier than going different places in the same dimension?
[19:56:46 18/08/2015] Amaroq : you ignore terrain and object collission and arent bount to physics?
[19:56:46 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : It apparently is; being able to cross any distance would be worth pointing out.
[19:56:55 18/08/2015] Scryangi : Actually, teleporting usually works by phasing deeper, and from there it's a shorter distance to where you want to go
[19:57:12 18/08/2015] Scryangi : You do sort of travel thus.
[19:57:16 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : Where'd you get that from, Scry?
[19:57:25 18/08/2015] Nyaha : Where do we get any of this from?
[19:57:59 18/08/2015] Nyaha : I'm pretty sure any sort of interdimensional activity is, at this point of human development, pure speculation.
[19:58:00 18/08/2015] Amaroq : my information i get from my brain because i know enough sci fi
[19:58:07 18/08/2015] Scryangi : Dimensional physics. The dimensions are like the layers of an onion. You go deeper to the source, and from there you travel to where you want to go, and then go back up
[19:58:30 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : [citation needed]
[19:58:55 18/08/2015] Nyaha : What makes anything the two of you say not need citation?
[19:59:31 18/08/2015] Nyaha : Sorry, I might be getting a little salty. ^^;
[19:59:33 18/08/2015] Scryangi : Okay, let's start from the beginning. I never see any mage pay a cost for teleporting. We got Diov in the comic and Selona for instance. Both used it to circumvent Felarya.
[19:59:55 18/08/2015] Nyaha : What about Thas?
[19:59:57 18/08/2015] Scryangi : Or was it Diov? It's been a long time since I read it, and I only read it once
[20:00:03 18/08/2015] Scryangi : Thas?
[20:00:12 18/08/2015] Nyaha : Thas Voidfingers.
[20:00:28 18/08/2015] Scryangi : Ah, I just recalled it being a void joke
[20:01:23 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : True 'nuff...
[20:01:26 18/08/2015] Nyaha : He does dimensional magic, too. Apart from creating wormholes, I'm pretty sure it also made mention of him using his power to transport both himself and his partner across space.
[20:01:51 18/08/2015] Scryangi : anyway, they literally do what I don't want to be possible in Felarya: they just walk into the jungle. They actually ask her to teleport them back for it is that easy for her
[20:02:18 18/08/2015] Scryangi : just, pop to the big tree, get the treasure, and pop back
[20:02:24 18/08/2015] DarkOne : you talk about the manga as if it's serious and makes actual sense XD
[20:02:28 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : As we understand, she wasn't doing that alone.
[20:02:46 18/08/2015] Scryangi : oh, how did she do that then?
[20:02:58 18/08/2015] @ Stabs : You saw her walking back out of a portal, didn't ya.
[20:03:09 18/08/2015] Nyaha : Be not that as it mayn't, Dark, it's still the closest thing to a canonical source that Felarya has.
[20:03:28 18/08/2015] Scryangi : I can't remember. One magic room is the same as another
[20:04:42 18/08/2015] Nyaha : The wiki sure as hell doesn't go into detail describing how dimensional magic works, and it's a lot harder to extrapolate information from a vague source of information than it is from a series of pictures used to tell a story.
[20:04:58 18/08/2015] Scryangi : this makes it even better. It's not Selona that is special, it's a room. In other words, something that can be replicated.

My point is... even assuming 3.5 rules (which I point out because we both know. The first thing anyone told me in here is that Felarya doesn't run on 3rd ed rules, no, seriously, that is EXACTLY the first thing I got told in this forum), it's 600 gp per trip per person, and that's not nothing: even if you get it all done in one trip, that still requires the treasures to be more than 600 gp per trip per person just to break even, or the Felaryan equivalent of it.

I don't know what rules you're referencing, Scry, about making a TP landing strip with a few hundred thousand in just a day, but I haven't been able to find them. Assuming I found them, if you say they're broken, we wouldn't have to use them, even if we could.

As for the throne room, it's one thing to say it can be replicated- it's another to say its replication is feasible. For all we know it's a Sagolian artifact, or takes specialized manpower that has better things to do than mass-produce artifacts. The thing about high CLs, so to speak, is that the people capable of pulling it off are not that many, and they might not be into that sort of stuff, for any price. High level wizards might have agendas to pursue other than building stuff, assuming the costs don't run up and away into the stratosphere in this particular setting. After all, ascarlin is more common- inflation in magic item creation costs is to be expected.

You also mentioned using succubi or canopy fairies, and that sounds... really badass. But do you really think there's someone capable of using succubi who wants to put their talents at the service of the highest bidder? That's pretty pimp- but let's assume some other demon instead- like cerberii or elliborins, both of which have the same problem you have when working with succubi- you know, working with devils is an excellent way to get into lots of trouble really really fast. And I don't mean trouble that ends at losing your money. I mean trouble that starts when you think that scheming creatures are nothing but a statblock full of impending abuse for your own profit.

While as for canopy fairies, if it were possible to mind-control and breed 'em like cattle, you shouldn't have any problem in the jungle in the first place, let alone need to teleport, which is not included in the things they do as easily as breathing. It could be, though- I'm imagining it's the same difference as the ethereal and the astral, or the spells blink (3rd lvl) and teleport (5th lvl), but I'd need confirmation from Karbo to state that with any certainty. Until then, the assumption that they can do both things when the most impressive of both (teleporting) was not stated seems like poor thinking.

A device powered by tons of frogs I could get behind- except roaches are probably a better option, as they are more compact and easier to maintain Razz

But it still assumes you can make such a device by wiring thousands of roaches in series. Which, albeit hilarious and awesome, remains an assumption.

Scryangi wrote:: Or just teleport out pieces of the walls--and into any pred that comes by. After all, that is the danger of teleporting: that you end up in a solid object and die. This is it being used offensively, and an instant kill.

This is the danger of assumptions, Scryangi- how does teleportation work? Any answer other than "teleportation doesn't exist" requires a set of assumptions which we need to agree on, before you start telling us how teleportation works in a fictional world.

Veteran knight Posts : 290 Join date : 2014-10-10

So let me get this straight: the defense is that Felarya does not work according to D&D rules, and yet you use D&D rules to convince me? But okay, I'll bite. Circle Magic is one of the oldest tricks in the book. With the help of more mages you can raise your effective caster level to fourty. Keep in mind that the game only goes to 20 and that anything beyond that is stuff like creating your own universe.

Also, I already wrote that I am fully aware of the fact that it is hard for one mage to teleport--despite Tahl Voidfingers and Lady Lesona being canon--and several workarounds even.

-People automating much of the work by creating a permanent teleportation circle.
-Summoning an angel who of course is Good natured and would help them. If demons can do it, then so can they. Or just contract one of those.
-Someone survived being attacked by a canopy fairy by enchanting her, and then researched her power.

People, what happens in real life when someone uses a technology that other people want to? They find ways to replicate it. In Felarya teleportation is possible. In Felarya you have entire guilds, no governments who want to plunder the jungle. And none of them is into Research end Development?

Oh, and Stabs? All you must do to break D&D is to abuse the item crafting rules. By raising the difficulty check you can bypass level and resource requirements, and DC's can be pumped. Also, creation and illusions are awesome. Read some guides on it. ^.~

Great warrior Posts : 470 Join date : 2008-07-19 Age : 36

You can find my reply here. Originally i wanted to reply in this thread, but it kinda... got too large to just have it as a response here. So yeah.

https://felarya.forumotion.com/t3925-a-guide-to-dimensional-magic-teleportation

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