Trade routes, paths, etc.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:26 pm

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Raveolution wrote:: Well, in the spirit of this fantasy universe, you have to think about the goals of people crossing Felarya. People like to cross land in safety no matter what universe it is. As dangerous as Felarya is, you're likely to have some epic conflicts.

It's something everyone wish but unfortunately it's not always the case because the trade routes always draw the attention of bandits and thieves... No matter the universe you travel you will always face problem when you are a merchant.

Bandits are ALWAYS a problem in any universe with commerce. But logically speaking, it's a matter of who will rob you, and who will almost always kill you... horribly. Let's assume bandits will kill everyone they rob. Okay. How would the average human rather die? Being shot by a gun or being digested alive?

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Raveolution wrote:: Commercial interests will demand the pacification of those Preds. They'll absolutely demand it, that's just being logical.

That's why there is the mercenaries or company who offer there protection, and the fact the danger can be a good reason to the merchant to increase the prices. It's a good advantage for the merchant and the people who sells their protection Very Happy

The pacification of the Preds require a pacification of the entire world of Felarya.

And I'm not saying total pacification of Preds is a wise move, or even possible, especially with the Guardians around. But pacification is the logical end goal of merchants - see below.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Raveolution wrote:: Families of people devoured will pay well for some payback.

Only if the family is wealthy. It's a simple employees there is few chance, for this kind of job it's always people who have serious need of money who do this kind of jobs.

There'll be people who do those jobs but not nearly as many.

There are people with qualifying skills to move goods but who will not go to Iraq, even though they're out of work now. Being killed, much less kidnapped and tortured and killed, is what primarily stops them. Now you take those who go to Iraq to move goods across the deadly desert there, and you show them footage of people encountering the Great Preds in Felarya. How many of those people who move goods across Iraq do you think will want to move goods across Felarya?

Not many.

Fear of dying while screaming for help while terrorists are sawing your head off, still doesn't come anywhere close to the fear of dying being dissolved in stomach acids.

That being said, merchants are going to find it very hard to find workers, no matter how desperate they are. And if the average Contractor in Iraq were to hear accounts from survivors of giant pred bellies growling while people are screaming and dying inside... well let's just say Post Traumatic Stress will put a great number of those survivors out of the game for one, and will leave only a fraction of Iraq Contractors willing to haul goods across Felarya.

Bandits they can deal with. Great Preds they cannot so easily deal with. And those who can deal with it, will suffer a serious attrition rate.

My point is, these workers command a premium salary because of the demand for their services.

And there's a worse problem than this, stemming from competing merchants; see below.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Raveolution wrote:: The fairies and nagas alone are likely to bring all the humans together to clear trade routes of threats.

It will be depend on the place and the route, near human settlement like Negav yes but next to Giant Tree, the fairy kingdom

And nagas and fairies are not the only predators on Felarya, there are the other hybrids predators but the faunas too.

That's why I said nagas and fairies alone - that means that they're bad enough, without all the other superpreds that exist on Felarya.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Raveolution wrote:: Of course the humans will go right back to being fragmented afterwards and the Preds will just keep coming back. I'm not sure where this falls under "blow Felarya up" but it's just how humans are: we like pacifying predators and making the world safe for human expansion.

1)This logic will draw the attention of the guardians,it's a threat for the balance the other races.
2)sorry for you main threat are not the predators but the humans who want to steal the goods.

1) That is for sure, but unfortunately it is very hard, given the issue of commerce, for this not to happen. Merchants need workers to survive and Great Preds prevent that, without major human intervention. And merchants who may not care about their workers, do care about losing their whole cargo strewn across a patch of forest, unable to be recovered because of a hungry Great Pred lurking in the area.

Merchants can charge a premium for moving stuff across Felarya, but other Merchants will want to undercut them either by reduced price or by reduced cargo loss, and steal their business. Hiring mercs to handle the Preds will mean more profits for them in the future, and less lost cargo, and fewer employee deaths or turnover. Less lost cargo means more trust by customers. The best workers will cram the halls trying to get a job at the company where they are more likely to survive. Also, more ominously, customers will pay a premium price just so they don't have to keep losing their goods (a double ding, considering the merchants charge them for each delivery attempt). So a merchant who clears out the Great Preds off their trade path, not only gets more market share, they also get customer loyalty. AND they might be able to lower prices to obliterate their competition, or raise prices to keep a fat profit. As long as the prices don't equal the cost of sending another full caravan of goods across the wilderness.

Soon the only surviving merchants left will be the ones with Pred-free routes, and thus the survivors will pay through the nose to clear out Preds just because otherwise they can't even stay in business against a Merchant that guarantees the delivery of their goods.

The risk of some Pred species going extinct is implied by this progression of events - and, thus, the intervention of a Guardian, as extinction implies upsetting the balance.

About bandits... bandits can be bought off. They can even be hired as mercs. Bandits can also be hunted down, look at how the pirates on Earth's oceans get hunted down. The legacy of the war against bandits is evident in how easily you can ship goods across the ocean nowadays. The bandit problem will be solved, although it will linger a lot longer than the Great Preds (without Guardian intervention).

Now if a Merchant could hire someone capable of telling someone like Ciele or Kiki to bug some other merchant's routes for some protection currency (food, money, whatever she wants), that would make some Preds and merchants allies. That would change things dramatically. But when has a giant fairy ever done that regularly?

2) Who are you statistically more likely to walk away alive from, in the event of an ambush: a bandit, or Vivian? A merchant can pay bandits protection money and have most of their goods arrive intact, perhaps even hire the bandits as mercs. What are your chances of your caravan surviving a run-in with Crisis when she's hungry? The main threat is the predator you can't ever (or almost ever) negotiate with and who will kill you heinously.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Raveolution wrote:: Frankly I think the Guardians would be working overtime to keep them under control.

The guardians are no reason to interfere except it's a threat for the balance of Felarya. It's something the humans have to deal by themselves without threating the balance of the world.

To conclude: You focus on the predators and neglect the threat of the humans, the predators can be considered as dangers of the environment but the threat of the humans are more important because they are more unpredictable and sometime well-armed.

I neglected to talk about the bandits, but they can be dealt with. They have been dealt with, for the most part, in reality, and as such they can also be reduced to an equally miniscule threat in Felarya. I'd never say bandits can be eliminated - they can't. But they can be mitigated. So can Great Preds. The problem is, Great Preds would piss off too many loved ones, and ruin too many merchants' profits. Merchants would compete to pacify great preds and bandits alike, and Great Preds will never stop short of death, so there ya go.

Then some rich crazy merchant will develop a vendetta for Preds and go further than just clearing them off his routes, and my advice is, if you see this happening, pack your stuff immediately and go hang out with the Delurans for a year. That merchant's about to get a visit from a Guardian. Or two.

Oh and I do admit to having a profound lack of faith in "secret" trade routes out of a Giant Pred's path.

And to Prinnydood, you're right - and the Guardians are definitely a form of insurance to preserve Karbo's universe. I could imagine that cycle happening for sure.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:26 pm

Raveolution wrote:: There'll be people who do those jobs but not nearly as many.

There are people with qualifying skills to move goods but who will not go to Iraq, even though they're out of work now. Being killed, much less kidnapped and tortured and killed, is what primarily stops them. Now you take those who go to Iraq to move goods across the deadly desert there, and you show them footage of people encountering the Great Preds in Felarya. How many of those people who move goods across Iraq do you think will want to move goods across Felarya?

Not many.

Iraq and Felarya are two different things. In Felarya you don't meet the same difficulties in Iraq.

Raveolution wrote:: Fear of dying while screaming for help while terrorists are sawing your head off, still doesn't come anywhere close to the fear of dying being dissolved in stomach acids.

This two cases are completely different one is a gratuitous violence act and the second is a necessity. The Predators don't have the same goal of a terrorist it's two different threat. You should avoid to do an amalgam or compare them.

Raveolution wrote:: That being said, merchants are going to find it very hard to find workers, no matter how desperate they are. And if the average Contractor in Iraq were to hear accounts from survivors of giant pred bellies growling while people are screaming and dying inside... well let's just say Post Traumatic Stress will put a great number of those survivors out of the game for one, and will leave only a fraction of Iraq Contractors willing to haul goods across Felarya.

Felarya is not Iraq, it's two completely different things

Raveolution wrote:: Bandits they can deal with. Great Preds they cannot so easily deal with. And those who can deal with it, will suffer a serious attrition rate.

My point is, these workers command a premium salary because of the demand for their services.

And there's a worse problem than this, stemming from competing merchants; see below.

1) That is for sure, but unfortunately it is very hard, given the issue of commerce, for this not to happen. Merchants need workers to survive and Great Preds prevent that, without major human intervention. And merchants who may not care about their workers, do care about losing their whole cargo strewn across a patch of forest, unable to be recovered because of a hungry Great Pred lurking in the area.

Merchants can charge a premium for moving stuff across Felarya, but other Merchants will want to undercut them either by reduced price or by reduced cargo loss, and steal their business. Hiring mercs to handle the Preds will mean more profits for them in the future, and less lost cargo, and fewer employee deaths or turnover. Less lost cargo means more trust by customers. The best workers will cram the halls trying to get a job at the company where they are more likely to survive. Also, more ominously, customers will pay a premium price just so they don't have to keep losing their goods (a double ding, considering the merchants charge them for each delivery attempt). So a merchant who clears out the Great Preds off their trade path, not only gets more market share, they also get customer loyalty. AND they might be able to lower prices to obliterate their competition, or raise prices to keep a fat profit. As long as the prices don't equal the cost of sending another full caravan of goods across the wilderness.

Soon the only surviving merchants left will be the ones with Pred-free routes, and thus the survivors will pay through the nose to clear out Preds just because otherwise they can't even stay in business against a Merchant that guarantees the delivery of their goods.

The risk of some Pred species going extinct is implied by this progression of events - and, thus, the intervention of a Guardian, as extinction implies upsetting the balance.

Don't worry about the merchants will always find a way to do business, they adapt perfectly to the difficulties. If a merchants wants to do business they will do business no matter what it costs, the best example is Gunther, this guy alone is able to do business in Felarya so I think it's not alone.

And many lost goods can be found in the black market or sell in the normal markets why because there are people who find them and sell them for their own profit. :p

Raveolution wrote:: About bandits... bandits can be bought off. They can even be hired as mercs. Bandits can also be hunted down, look at how the pirates on Earth's oceans get hunted down. The legacy of the war against bandits is evident in how easily you can ship goods across the ocean nowadays. The bandit problem will be solved, although it will linger a lot longer than the Great Preds (without Guardian intervention).

The pirates are still active on Earth, it's just they change their method but they are still active. There are still boats which are attacked by Pirates, it's true there are no case of piracy in the Caribbean but they are still effective in Asia and Africa. And let me remember you pirates attack the plane too.

Raveolution wrote:: Now if a Merchant could hire someone capable of telling someone like Ciele or Kiki to bug some other merchant's routes for some protection currency (food, money, whatever she wants), that would make some Preds and merchants allies. That would change things dramatically. But when has a giant fairy ever done that regularly?

It's a possibility which can be denied, if they are still merchants in Felarya maybe some find a way to deal with the Predators like that.

Raveolution wrote:: 2) Who are you statistically more likely to walk away alive from, in the event of an ambush: a bandit, or Vivian? A merchant can pay bandits protection money and have most of their goods arrive intact, perhaps even hire the bandits as mercs. What are your chances of your caravan surviving a run-in with Crisis when she's hungry? The main threat is the predator you can't ever (or almost ever) negotiate with and who will kill you heinously.

The bandits can kill the merchant, steal the money and sells the goods on the black market or on the markets.

And for the case you quote the predator are dangerous only when they are hungry, the bandits it's anytime.

Statistically no matter the world the deadliest creature for the humans will always be the humans themselves.

Raveolution wrote:: I neglected to talk about the bandits, but they can be dealt with. They have been dealt with, for the most part, in reality, and as such they can also be reduced to an equally miniscule threat in Felarya. I'd never say bandits can be eliminated - they can't. But they can be mitigated. So can Great Preds. The problem is, Great Preds would piss off too many loved ones, and ruin too many merchants' profits. Merchants would compete to pacify great preds and bandits alike, and Great Preds will never stop short of death, so there ya go.

I'm sorry for you but you can not be reduced to an equally minuscule threat even in Felarya, because untamed and wild place offer many advantages of the bandits because when a convoy is attacked there are few chance it receive helps from outside.

Raveolution wrote:: Then some rich crazy merchant will develop a vendetta for Preds and go further than just clearing them off his routes, and my advice is, if you see this happening, pack your stuff immediately and go hang out with the Delurans for a year. That merchant's about to get a visit from a Guardian. Or two.

If the merchant do a business by selling predators' skins, yes. A merchant always research a profit in his actions nothing is free there is always something behind, and a merchant prefer to avoid problems to create them, it can be harmful for the business.

Raveolution wrote:: Oh and I do admit to having a profound lack of faith in "secret" trade routes out of a Giant Pred's path.

The merchants are people who like keeping secrets for themselves to share them so if a merchant find a secret path do you think it will share it.

It's because you are more interested by a war between the predators and the humans and you tend to dramatize the situation too much. You should relax and take a step back Wink

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:46 pm

Nitpick: Predators are not only dangerous when hungry. There are many specifically stated to eat others when full just to enjoy the squirming.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:52 am

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: Iraq and Felarya are two different things. In Felarya you don't meet the same difficulties in Iraq.

Like Mahalite said, there are many preds who eat even when full. Would that not be gratuitous? As for the difference in goals, the most important comparison is what they want you to be when they're done. Both terrorists and Great Preds want you dead. I'm not sure what differences exist that nullify that. I do know said differences are not important when you're dead.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: Don't worry about the merchants will always find a way to do business, they adapt perfectly to the difficulties. If a merchants wants to do business they will do business no matter what it costs, the best example is Gunther, this guy alone is able to do business in Felarya so I think it's not alone.

Sure, they'll adapt, but do you really think most will not at least want or try to get the Preds and bandits alike off their routes forever? Come on, srsly, we're talking human nature here. They're gonna try and try hard.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: The pirates are still active on Earth, it's just they change their method but they are still active. There are still boats which are attacked by Pirates, it's true there are no case of piracy in the Caribbean but they are still effective in Asia and Africa. And let me remember you pirates attack the plane too.

Yes, but most freight makes it around the world safely. Not gonna be the case in Felarya.

Can you tell me of an item you ordered from overseas that got intercepted by pirates?

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: It's a possibility which can be denied, if they are still merchants in Felarya maybe some find a way to deal with the Predators like that.

Oh they'll find a way. That's the problem.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: The bandits can kill the merchant, steal the money and sells the goods on the black market or on the markets.

Can, yes. Can, being the effective word. But you can't say bandits always will kill. Stagecoaches got robbed and people didn't always get killed. Do you really believe all bandits kill when they rob? Now if a Great Pred goes out of their way and actually intercepts your convoy, what are your odds that they aren't coming to kill (eat) you?

If you can honestly say that all bandits always kill those that they rob or Felaryan Preds don't intercept convoys to eat people, I'll shut up right now.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: I'm sorry for you but you can not be reduced to an equally minuscule threat even in Felarya, because untamed and wild place offer many advantages of the bandits because when a convoy is attacked there are few chance it receive helps from outside.

You give bandits more power than they really have. They can be hit by Predators if they're lurking out there. Mercs can hunt them down.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: It's because you are more interested by a war between the predators and the humans and you tend to dramatize the situation too much. You should relax and take a step back

Perhaps. But I'm also explaining how human beings will react, realistically. This was a thread that started discussing defending trade routes. If we want to stay superficial about it then I will do so. Heck, there's quite a few whole realms I'd like to see the Preds have fun chowing down on. But realistically speaking, it isn't about me being interested in a war, although I am very interested in how humans can make Felarya safer for them. It's all about cause and effect and human nature.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:40 am

Raveolution wrote:: Like Mahalite said, there are many preds who eat even when full. Would that not be gratuitous? As for the difference in goals, the most important comparison is what they want you to be when they're done. Both terrorists and Great Preds want you dead. I'm not sure what differences exist that nullify that. I do know said differences are not important when you're dead.

It's not an Isolon eye which will stop a terrorist to attack Negav.

It's not you who start with telling dying eating by a predators is worst than dying killing a terrorist.

Raveolution wrote:: Sure, they'll adapt, but do you really think most will not at least want or try to get the Preds and bandits alike off their routes forever? Come on, srsly, we're talking human nature here. They're gonna try and try hard.

Yeah, yeah but the problem the criminals are human too so what you say applies to them.

The criminalities is born from the different inequality between the humans no matter the place, the society you develop since the moment there will be inequalities they will be criminals.

Raveolution wrote:: Yes, but most freight makes it around the world safely. Not gonna be the case in Felarya.

Can you tell me of an item you ordered from overseas that got intercepted by pirates?

Because there are the planes and the trade route between America and Europe is not as vast as and as long as the trade route between Europe and Asia.

But as I said piracy are effective in Asia and Africa because it's a vast route, there are many boats which pass by this way it's very difficult to protect them all because it difficult to cover all the area.

Raveolution wrote:: Oh they'll find a way. That's the problem.

They find a way to their business in Felarya even the threat of the Predators, their convoy always arrive to their destination and they didn't have to kill all the predators on their path. It's true it's a problem.

Raveolution wrote:: Can, yes. Can, being the effective word. But you can't say bandits always will kill. Stagecoaches got robbed and people didn't always get killed. Do you really believe all bandits kill when they rob? Now if a Great Pred goes out of their way and actually intercepts your convoy, what are your odds that they aren't coming to kill (eat) you?

If you can honestly say that all bandits always kill those that they rob or Felaryan Preds don't intercept convoys to eat people, I'll shut up right now.

The risk to be attacked it's something which can not be denied a merchants in Felarya should take in consideration it can be attacked by both predators and bandits, because he has to defend BOTH his life and his freight.

The difference between the preds and the bandits, the predators is aiming you and the bandits your goods. Except in some case the predators are not interested by the goods so they can be recover but in the case of the bandits your goods are lost forever and in this case the consequence are more important. The consequence did by the predators on the commerce are unintentional contrary to the bandits who willingly attack you to steal your goods.

For the predators it's protect your life for the bandits it's protect your life and your goods

If you are attacked by bandits in vast and dangerous place like jungle, the desert or the deep seas where there are no police or army to assure the protection. You have strong chance to be killed or captured, there are few chance they spare your life, they tend to make disappear the proof of their act Very Happy

Raveolution wrote:: You give bandits more power than they really have. They can be hit by Predators if they're lurking out there. Mercs can hunt them down.

The bandits spend most of their time on Felarya, so they know better the danger of the are and how to deal with it. So I think they learn how to avoid the predators.

The bandits are well-organized, they can use the same technology and magic use the merchants and they know the jungle as good as the predators. It's a deadly combinations isn't it Wink

Even if you send mercenaries to kill are you sure they will find them and kill them, it's difficult to find someone in a vast area where there are an infinities of hiding place.

Raveolution wrote:: Perhaps. But I'm also explaining how human beings will react, realistically. This was a thread that started discussing defending trade routes. If we want to stay superficial about it then I will do so. Heck, there's quite a few whole realms I'd like to see the Preds have fun chowing down on. But realistically speaking, it isn't about me being interested in a war, although I am very interested in how humans can make Felarya safer for them. It's all about cause and effect and human nature.

The problem you can not maintain a strong defense anytime and anywhere in a vast area like Felarya.

The goal when you are merchant is to protect the goods and to assure it arrives to its destination. So you need to be stealthier than normal and to avoid to attract the attention of both the predator of both the bandits. Because it will be more difficult to defend yourself against both the attacks and predators and the bandits.

When you convey something or escort someone it's logic to avoid the conflict or to not draw the attention on you, since the moment you are attacked no matter it's a predators or bandits since the moments you have no external help consider you as dead. Because you don't have the advantages on the numbers and you don't know in advance how and who will attacked you.

I will defend the idea of the secret path:
1) The access is restricted due to the fact there are few people who knows this path only the merchant and their bodyguards knows it, it's reduce the chance to be attacked because you meet few peoples.

2) Setting some checkpoints on the path, allow the merchants to rest in safe place. So no risk to be attacked the night, and you can fill up your supplies and repairs your gears. It's easier to secure the path because you have only to focus on the protection of the convoy and you can have an external help.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:00 pm

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: The risk to be attacked it's something which can not be denied a merchants in Felarya should take in consideration it can be attacked by both predators and bandits, because he has to defend BOTH his life and his freight.

The difference between the preds and the bandits, the predators is aiming you and the bandits your goods. Except in some case the predators are not interested by the goods so they can be recover but in the case of the bandits your goods are lost forever and in this case the consequence are more important. The consequence did by the predators on the commerce are unintentional contrary to the bandits who willingly attack you to steal your goods.

For the predators it's protect your life for the bandits it's protect your life and your goods

Okay so when the Pred hits your convoy where does your freight go? It's left sitting right there. Nagas like Anna may even take some techy stuff. There are also fairies known to collect magical items, too. Rin's mother took stuff from people she ate and probably would have taken things from a caravan that she attacked. Point is, lots of Giant Preds are known by name for being likely to steal certain things from a convoy after eating people; other Preds may take stuff they find interesting. Shiny stuff, odd stuff, etc.

But that's not the worst problem. The worst problem is that Preds aren't stupid - do you really think they will abandon that freight and not be lurking in the shadows when someone comes along to recover it? I'd say it's more likely than not that the moment someone goes to collect/recover a merchant's freight that's lost to a Pred attack, the Pred will be right there pouncing from the shadows. The lost freight becomes bait. A Pred would be pretty stupid not to do this. Practically speaking that freight is lost forever.

Quote :: The bandits are well-organized, they can use the same technology and magic use the merchants and they know the jungle as good as the predators. It's a deadly combinations isn't it

Bandits are a terrible issue as long as the area remains wild. But one of two things will eventually happen - either the Preds will eat the Bandits, or the Bandits will put down the Preds. The Preds will always seek to eat the bandits who are always out there lurking. One side or the other will dominate. One of your two enemies along a trade route will eliminate the other.

Quote :: The problem you can not maintain a strong defense anytime and anywhere in a vast area like Felarya.

The goal when you are merchant is to protect the goods and to assure it arrives to its destination. So you need to be stealthier than normal and to avoid to attract the attention of both the predator of both the bandits. Because it will be more difficult to defend yourself against both the attacks and predators and the bandits.

When you convey something or escort someone it's logic to avoid the conflict or to not draw the attention on you, since the moment you are attacked no matter it's a predators or bandits since the moments you have no external help consider you as dead. Because you don't have the advantages on the numbers and you don't know in advance how and who will attacked you.

That's a good argument for having defenses for your convoy that the other side has no idea about.

Quote :: I will defend the idea of the secret path:
1) The access is restricted due to the fact there are few people who knows this path only the merchant and their bodyguards knows it, it's reduce the chance to be attacked because you meet few peoples.

Doesn't help much if you have a Miratan merc/bandit who can detect a pile of metal moving miles away. America has sensor equipment that can track ships, trucks, people, etc. from a long distance. A convoy can be spotted from far away in real time, without satellites, more easily by bandits than by Preds.

Quote :: 2) Setting some checkpoints on the path, allow the merchants to rest in safe place. So no risk to be attacked the night, and you can fill up your supplies and repairs your gears. It's easier to secure the path because you have only to focus on the protection of the convoy and you can have an external help.

Uhm, there is no such thing as 'no risk to be attacked' in Felarya... there is only 'less risk'. You did say "The problem you can not maintain a strong defense anytime and anywhere in a vast area like Felarya." That applies even to temporary checkpoints.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:19 pm

Raveolution wrote:: Okay so when the Pred hits your convoy where does your freight go? It's left sitting right there. Nagas like Anna may even take some techy stuff. There are also fairies known to collect magical items, too. Rin's mother took stuff from people she ate and probably would have taken things from a caravan that she attacked. Point is, lots of Giant Preds are known by name for being likely to steal certain things from a convoy after eating people; other Preds may take stuff they find interesting. Shiny stuff, odd stuff, etc.

But that's not the worst problem. The worst problem is that Preds aren't stupid - do you really think they will abandon that freight and not be lurking in the shadows when someone comes along to recover it? I'd say it's more likely than not that the moment someone goes to collect/recover a merchant's freight that's lost to a Pred attack, the Pred will be right there pouncing from the shadows. The lost freight becomes bait. A Pred would be pretty stupid not to do this. Practically speaking that freight is lost forever.

You discover the predators are sentient creature like humans Shocked

I don't think it's worst the predators find an interest into humans gears why not to make business with them Very Happy

I think many intelligent merchants success to befriend predators like with Subeta or Anna, or seek the protections of some predators like that Very Happy

So we find one of the reasons why some merchants are able to do some trade in Felarya cheers

Quote :: Bandits are a terrible issue as long as the area remains wild. But one of two things will eventually happen - either the Preds will eat the Bandits, or the Bandits will put down the Preds. The Preds will always seek to eat the bandits who are always out there lurking. One side or the other will dominate. One of your two enemies along a trade route will eliminate the other.

Sorry for you but this kind of conflict can be endless the time the bandits kill all the predators or the predators will eat all the bandits, it can play to the advantage of the merchants Very Happy

Quote :: That's a good argument for having defenses for your convoy that the other side has no idea about.

That's why is more important to be stealthy. Because no matter the gears you have no idea who or what will attack you, so the merchants have to keep their secrets for themselves.

Quote :: Doesn't help much if you have a Miratan merc/bandit who can detect a pile of metal moving miles away. America has sensor equipment that can track ships, trucks, people, etc. from a long distance. A convoy can be spotted from far away in real time, without satellites, more easily by bandits than by Preds.

You confirm the bandits are the main threat of the merchants because they have better gears than the predators to hunt the convoy.

Quote :: Uhm, there is no such thing as 'no risk to be attacked' in Felarya... there is only 'less risk'. You did say "The problem you can not maintain a strong defense anytime and anywhere in a vast area like Felarya." That applies even to temporary checkpoints.

If I remember it's possible to have a small version of the Isolon Eye, so if the merchants can easily buy a small version of the crystal and the temporary checkpoints can be set by the magiocrats of Negav where they can fill up again.

I was right when I said the main threat was not the predators but the bandits because they can have the same gears as the merchants to protect them against the predators. So when you will think to make the situation safer for the humans it will help both the merchants and the bandits who are BOTH humans.

So when you think you will develop a solution which make protect humans against the predators, it helps all the humans. And the worst enemy of the humanity will always the humans themselves.

So the threat of the humans against humans are still effective.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:56 am

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: You discover the predators are sentient creature like humans

I don't think it's worst the predators find an interest into humans gears why not to make business with them

I think many intelligent merchants success to befriend predators like with Subeta or Anna, or seek the protections of some predators like that

So we find one of the reasons why some merchants are able to do some trade in Felarya

Hmmm, okay, let's play survival.
You go try to make a deal with someone like Subeta, I will find me a big enough weapon to make another one like her consider changing their hunting grounds.

Whose odds are better?

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: Sorry for you but this kind of conflict can be endless the time the bandits kill all the predators or the predators will eat all the bandits, it can play to the advantage of the merchants

Either the Preds all get killed and the Guardians come and blast everyone back to the stone age, or the bandits all get eaten and the Preds, being the last ones standing, prove to be the worst threat.

Realistically (!!!), though, the Preds and bandits will probably just clear one side or the other out of a particular region. But while such a conflict is getting sorted out, I have another question for ya.
Is the #1 cause of death for humans in Felarya
a) bandits
b) fairies
?

My bet is that this applies to convoys as well as adventurers.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: That's why is more important to be stealthy. Because no matter the gears you have no idea who or what will attack you, so the merchants have to keep their secrets for themselves.

As I said before, why not hire bandits as protectors? Why would they suddenly fail to protect you when they didn't fail to rob you before? Ex-bandits with any-means-necessary latitude and merchant backing, vs bandits. Not sure how the bandits remain a top predator against convoys when they're essentially fighting their own.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: If I remember it's possible to have a small version of the Isolon Eye, so if the merchants can easily buy a small version of the crystal and the temporary checkpoints can be set by the magiocrats of Negav where they can fill up again.

Nekomura has this miniature Isolon Eye. I am not sure I ever saw any other examples of it. Frankly speaking you hit upon an excellent point - there is no technology that cannot be duplicated given enough research. The Isolon Eye at Negav City, far as I know, doesn't need to be recharged.

Merchants will pay dearly for blueprints (so to speak) to build their own Isolon Eye, especially a mobile version that can be active in a moving convoy. If they can obtain such "blueprints" - if... they'll make new ones and sell them at an utterly ruinous profit.

Villages will practically sacrifice children into slavery for their own Isolon Eye. After that, yeah, bandits become the only threat left. But by then the whole balance of Felarya might be threatened as Isolon Eyes appear all over the place to accommodate human cities swelling with people...

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:41 pm

Raveolution wrote:: Hmmm, okay, let's play survival.
You go try to make a deal with someone like Subeta, I will find me a big enough weapon to make another one like her consider changing their hunting grounds.

Whose odds are better?

Deal with her it's more realistic because
1) even if you have a powerful weapon if you are ALONE in the wild and unknown area where you have no idea who or what can attack you. Your chance of survival are very low.
2)she collects many objects magical or not, so your big weapon has a strong chance to end in her collection
3)She knows many predators, like Crisis, Vivian, Temi, Alvar,Melany,Aya (good luck for Aya)...
4)Your big weapons will require a lot of training to use it.
5)She knows the place better than you, so she knows where to ambush you
6)She has interesting and powerful artefact like the one she gives to Léa
7)She's not stupid
8)The survival is not only a question of gears or weapons.
9)You solution it's only technology and you are not sure it's effective against magic.
10)She has the initiative of the attack.
11) Your solution works only in condition you have the weapon on you when you meet her
12)It's very difficult to aim a fairy
13)If you are attacked during the battle you are few chance to survive.

To conclude if I succeed to befriend her, I' have no problem with Crisis and many deadly predators and in addition I gain an artefact to protect me against the predators of the place. In the other hand to fight her in battle I'm not sure to win and even if I win, I will be severely injured and I have a strong to be hunted by a group a predators who want to avenge her and each time you will fight your chance of survival will decrease greatly.

Raveolution wrote:: Realistically (!!!), though, the Preds and bandits will probably just clear one side or the other out of a particular region. But while such a conflict is getting sorted out, I have another question for ya.
Is the #1 cause of death for humans in Felarya
a) bandits
b) fairies
?

My bet is that this applies to convoys as well as adventurers.

I like how you start this sentence, because it's start with the word "Realistically" I wonder if you know the meaning when I read that:

Raveolution wrote:: You go try to make a deal with someone like Subeta, I will find me a big enough weapon to make another one like her consider changing their hunting grounds.

To answer you:

1)It's a rumor

2)convoy and adventurers are two different things, you should avoid amalgam,
the problem of the adventurers and the problem and the merchants are two different issues.

3)The goal of a convoy, it's simple you have just to reach your destination in a faster way. If you stop to fight all the predators of the areas, you will waste time,supplies and men while your competitors would arrived before you and sell their goods.

4)You have strong chance to lose your bet, because they didn't face to the same problem. The adventurer is the man who doesn't hesitate to risk his life to explore new lands where there are few humans contrary to merchants who go in place full of people to sell their goods. So the merchants have more chance to meet more bandits due to his freight contrary to the adventurer who carry few things.

5)It's not my fault if people want to hunt fairies to have money

Raveolution wrote:: .
As I said before, why not hire bandits as protectors? Why would they suddenly fail to protect you when they didn't fail to rob you before? Ex-bandits with any-means-necessary latitude and merchant backing, vs bandits. Not sure how the bandits remain a top predator against convoys when they're essentially fighting their own.

The humans are not altruist by nature.

It's easier to steal someone than to protect him.
They have no interest to do that only if they wanted to scum you or you arrest them first and blackmail you will release them if they work you.

Raveolution wrote:: Nekomura has this miniature Isolon Eye. I am not sure I ever saw any other examples of it. Frankly speaking you hit upon an excellent point - there is no technology that cannot be duplicated given enough research. The Isolon Eye at Negav City, far as I know, doesn't need to be recharged.

Isolon Eye is a magical artefact not technology, and only the magiocrats who are mostly mages know to creates it and they prefer to keep the secret of the creation of the crystal by themselves.

Raveolution wrote:: Merchants will pay dearly for blueprints (so to speak) to build their own Isolon Eye, especially a mobile version that can be active in a moving convoy. If they can obtain such "blueprints" - if... they'll make new ones and sell them at an utterly ruinous profit.

Where is the problem Question

It's the reason why the magiocrates create the Isolon Eye or they would offer it to the people of nekomura.

I doubt the mobile will work as good as the original one, and a business like that will increase the power of the magiocrates. The magiocrates are not stupid.

The merchants are not on the same boat as the rest of the population, they have money and they are more important for the development of the Negav cities. So it's normal they have some advantages than the other people don't have.

Raveolution wrote:: Villages will practically sacrifice children into slavery for their own Isolon Eye. After that, yeah, bandits become the only threat left.

It's the reality of capitalism Wink

Raveolution wrote:: But by then the whole balance of Felarya might be threatened as Isolon Eyes appear all over the place to accommodate human cities swelling with people...

If it was the case other town like Negav will appears but it's not the case because the magiocrats know perfectly the threat of the guardians and that's why they always trade lesser version of the Isolon Eye. This solution apply to the trade with Negav because I'm realist and I know it's doesn't work for the whole world of Felarya.

I will stop here, this discussion becomes ridiculous.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:25 pm

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: Deal with her it's more realistic because
1) even if you have a powerful weapon if you are ALONE in the wild and unknown area where you have no idea who or what can attack you. Your chance of survival are very low.

This is true, but it puts a vulnerability in to the small preds, not the big ones. Many of the larger preds are overconfident and hunt alone themselves.

Quote :: 2)she collects many objects magical or not, so your big weapon has a strong chance to end in her collection

As does more than you wish to bargain with. She'd likely gouge her 'safety' at high prices. "I'll let you go for, say... 90% of your profits?"

Quote :: 3)She knows many predators, like Crisis, Vivian, Temi, Alvar,Melany,Aya (good luck for Aya)...

If you can kill her, you should be able to handle most of them as well.

Quote :: 4)Your big weapons will require a lot of training to his user.

Not really. For example: FORCE:Ground rifle. Can shoot with a specialist beam through 500m of Stone instantly. How do you operate it? Pull the trigger. If we're speaking spells though, or some sort of armoured weapon...

Quote :: 5)She knows the place better than you, so she knows where to ambush you

And who has better detection gear? Seriously, it'll take just a few people scouting ahead with IR goggles and radio contact to figure where she is and quickly ready yourself. Because it's not like she'll be hiding her heat source easily. Oh, and the "Cover with mud" myth to beating IR has been busted, so that won't work.

Quote :: 6)She has interesting and powerful artefact like the one she gives to Léa

And as long as you keep it in the status quo yourself (IE: Keep your party from doing ANYTHING with it), you will likely not draw any guardian's attention.

Quote :: 7)She's not stupid

And neither are the humans. She's still one mind against a pool of several. And let me tell you, Merchants can have some scarily sharp minds. Almost as tricksy as lawyers.

Quote :: 8)The survival is not only a question of gears or weapons.

Aye, diplomacy doesn't work often with Predators though. Or at least one that ends favorably for the Merchants. Say the pred even does honor their word to let you pass with 90% profits... but charge interest on the time it took to return to them? And then demands a further 5% added on to the original 90% for every later trip, and a pair of magic items [but never two of the same] as well. It would eventually lead to the Pred making impossible to satisfy scenarios and going "Well if you can't honor your side of the deal..." before it goes "OM NOM NOM".

Quote :: 9)You solution it's only technology and you are not sure it's effective against magic.

Railguns tend to work against everything. As do nanomachines, gene-tailored virus', 120mm cannons, etc. Worst comes to worse I'm sure the convoy could ask a local Othem priest to "Bless one for the lovely lady along the trade route". If they understand what you mean, I'm sure they'd be happy to bless a weapon free of charge to use against a Predator.

Quote :: 10)She has the initiative of the attack.

Debatably.

Quote :: 11) Your solution works only in condition you have the weapon on you when you meet her

Who wanders the jungle unarmed? Oh, right, I forgot. Most Felaryan humans and Nekos have the brain of a chicken when it comes to survival. Those like Gunther and all exceptions.

Quote :: 12)It's very difficult to aim a fairy

Agreed, which is why I always suggested either mass-saturation fire, explosives, stunning devices, gas attacks, or attacking it unaware.

Quote :: 13)If you are attacked during the battle you are few chance to survive.

Not necessarily. Ever heard of Meatgrinders? Ever hear of how often such attacks failed?

Quote :: To conclude if I succeed to befriend her,

And hand over 2/3 your caravan and all the profits in the long run.

Quote :: I' have no problem with Crisis and many deadly predators and in addition I gain an artefact to protect me against the predators of the place.

If they decide not to eat you or make you into their little 'buddy' who constantly feeds them in interesting objects.

Quote :: In the other hand to fight her in battle I'm not sure to win and even if I win,

Which is why you wait until you're about assured. I can just about promise that with a pair of FORCE:Ground Rifles you'd absolutely wreck any non-magic predator you came across.

Quote :: I will be severely injured and I have a strong to be hunted by a group a predators who want to avenge her and each time you will fight your chance of survival will decrease greatly.

Each time you fight the Predators are more likely to back off. They're sentient and smart. If they see four of their friends died before attempting to kill you in revenge, and each tried better and smarter tactics progressively, they will think "Hm, perhaps we should let these fellows slide."

Quote :: 5)It's not my fault if people want to hunt fairies to have money

It's not just money though. There were two reasons people hunted wolves. Money, and "Protection". Turned out it was false with the later, but they did such thinking they were protecting themselves in the long run. Same goes for Fairy hunting.

Quote :: Give a good reason why bandits will protect merchants when they gain more money by stealing them.

Continued business? Because hiring someone out ensures they themselves suffer no casualties? You won't have done anything wrong in the local authorities eyes so you won't be branded outlaws and disallowed in cities?

Quote :: Isolon Eye is a magical artefact not technology, and only the magiocrats who are mostly mages know to creates it.

And you cannot replicate it with a technological alternative? Sonic disruptors? Hologram projectors? Shields?

Quote :: I will stop here because this discussion becomes ridiculous.

The Eye one or Pred one?
EDIT: Point of this post is not how to defeat predator, but more to argue that conquering the path is going to work better in more scenarios than attempting to befriend them. Even if you somehow persuade the smart / sentient preds, you still have to worry about their outlaws and non-sentient preds.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:15 pm

Quote :: This is true, but it puts a vulnerability in to the small preds, not the big ones. Many of the larger preds are overconfident and hunt alone themselves.

Except you don't meet only one predator per area.

Quote :: Railguns tend to work against everything. As do nanomachines, gene-tailored virus', 120mm cannons, etc.

All these weapons are the common gears of all the inhabitants of Felarya can buy on the market and they exist all in mass production.

Quote :: Worst comes to worse I'm sure the convoy could ask a local Othem priest to "Bless one for the lovely lady along the trade route". If they understand what you mean, I'm sure they'd be happy to bless a weapon free of charge to use against a Predator.

I quote the wiki :

wiki wrote:: "I am not afraid of you, vile naga ! The Sun God is protecting me!"( Lhak Conrad the lightbringer, Othemite zealot )

The blessing weapon of the othemites are very efficient aren't they Wink

Quote :: Each time you fight the Predators are more likely to back off. They're sentient and smart. If they see four of their friends died before attempting to kill you in revenge, and each tried better and smarter tactics progressively, they will think "Hm, perhaps we should let these fellows slide."

In condition you manage to kill four of their friends and survive to the battle.It's true a single human can have enough firepower to kill a naga, a dryad, a mermaid, a succubi and a fairy and has enough resistance to stand their both their physical and magical attacks. And the problem here they are seeking for vengeance not for food without counting the others predators you will meet during you travel.

Quote :: And who has better detection gear? Seriously, it'll take just a few people scouting ahead with IR goggles and radio contact to figure where she is and quickly ready yourself. Because it's not like she'll be hiding her heat source easily. Oh, and the "Cover with mud" myth to beating IR has been busted, so that won't work.

It doesn't work against all the creature of Felarya, as elemental and carnivorous plants.

Subeta is a fairy who has an important knowledge about objects magical or not, she gives an artefact to Léa too hide herself from the sense of the predator. I think she is familiar with detection devices.

Quote :: Who wanders the jungle unarmed? Oh, right, I forgot. Most Felaryan humans and Nekos have the brain of a chicken when it comes to survival. Those like Gunther and all exceptions.

A naked nekos is as well-armed as an entire battalion of marines.

It's the case of many people who believed Gunther possess weapons able to kill a predator easily.

Quote :: Agreed, which is why I always suggested either mass-saturation fire, explosives, stunning devices, gas attacks, or attacking it unaware.

In condition you have them all on you, but I don't worry you have unlimited ammos so you will be able to kill all the fairies you meet like that.

Quote :: Which is why you wait until you're about assured. I can just about promise that with a pair of FORCE:Ground Rifles you'd absolutely wreck any non-magic predator you came across.

Except here we face a fairy a magical creature and it's the case of many predators in Felarya.

Quote :: If you can kill her, you should be able to handle most of them as well.

It depends how you will be after the fight if you kill her easily yes, but if after the fight you are severely injured you will prefer to avoid another fight.

Quote :: And as long as you keep it in the status quo yourself (IE: Keep your party from doing ANYTHING with it), you will likely not draw any guardian's attention.

I know that perfectly.

Quote :: If they decide not to eat you or make you into their little 'buddy' who constantly feeds them in interesting objects.

Be close of your friend and even closer of your enemies. Even if I feeds them with items

Quote :: And you cannot replicate it with a technological alternative? Sonic disruptors? Hologram projectors? Shields?

I doubt the Isolon Eye work like that .

Quote :: The Eye one or Pred one?

I was speaking about the discussion

Quote :: Continued business? Because hiring someone out ensures they themselves suffer no casualties? You won't have done anything wrong in the local authorities eyes so you won't be branded outlaws and disallowed in cities?

In condition the authorities can prove it's bandits and not predators who did attack ,most of the actions are not done in town but in the wildness. The predators will be accused first.

In general attacking of caravans are a well-oiled business, the bandits sell their loots to other merchants who sell on the market. When a merchants hire bandits it's not only for protection but to attack the others competitors.

Quote :: Aye, diplomacy doesn't work often with Predators though. Or at least one that ends favorably for the Merchants. Say the pred even does honor their word to let you pass with 90% profits... but charge interest on the time it took to return to them? And then demands a further 5% added on to the original 90% for every later trip, and a pair of magic items [but never two of the same] as well. It would eventually lead to the Pred making impossible to satisfy scenarios and going "Well if you can't honor your side of the deal..." before it goes "OM NOM NOM".

A diplomat don't have the brain of a chicken Wink

If you are as skilled as Gunther and if the gift can be something like a gene-tailored virus' or deadly poison. It's true it goes "OM NOM NOM"

Sorry to not answer in order Mala but I stop the discussion right now because I'm tired.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:33 pm

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: Except you don't meet only one predator per area.

But you encounter one hunting, more often than not. Predators are shown to often hunt on their own, so that they can work their own techniques.

Quote :: All these weapons are the common gears of all the inhabitants of Felarya can buy on the market.

I'll admit that none except the 120mm cannon are, but that's a standard tank armament. If you want to argue things like the Miratans, Delurians, and all don't use such fine by me.

Quote :: Many othemites die eaten by predators.

How do they die? I do not follow the logic of "Othem priest blesses the bomb before departure" to "Othem priest winds up in Predator".

Quote :: In condition you manage to kill four of their friends and survive to the battle.It's true a single human can have enough firepower to kill a naga, a dryad, a mermaid, a succubi and a fairy and has enough resistance to stand their both their physical and magical attacks. And the problem here they are seeking for vengeance not for food without counting the others predators you will meet during you travel.

But as I said, vengeance only goes so far. They killed your friend? You'll be pissed. A dozen of your friends then attack and each have their asses handed to them? You're going to try and find some less direct way to get revenge. Like attack their family, or ruin their reputation.

Quote :: It doesn't work against all the creature of Felarya, as elemental and carnivorous plants.

It will work against Fire and Ice elementals. Electrical elementals can be detected with any sort of energy monitoring objects. Earth ones potentially with seismic. And the plants can be counteracted with liberal use of flame weapons.

Quote :: Subeta is a fairy who has an important knowledge about objects magical or not, she gives an artefact to Léa too hide herself from the sense of the predator. I think she is familiar with detection devices.

That's magic. Magic =/= Tech Like saying since a mage can make a magical explosion with a fireball, all mages capable of casting fireball could create their own pipe bombs, properly use C4, know where to place demolition charges, etc.

Quote :: It's the case of all everyone who believed Gunther possess weapons able to kill a predator easily.

If you don't notice, said weapons tend to be less-than-lethal to Neera's in the best of scenarios.

Quote :: In condition you have them all on you, but I don't worry you have unlimited ammos so you will be able to kill all the fairies you meet like that.

Gas weapons and NBC gear could be easy though. While disgusting, mass-spam an area with Chlorine gas and walk through in a piss-soaked rag for your caravan. You'll need to properly seal the goods, but it'll work miraculously against non-wind magic enemies. And saturation fire is also not too hard to accomplish, especially since with Faeries you don't need to hit their body: Only the fragile wing.

Quote :: Except here we face a fairy a magical creature and it's the case of many predators in Felarya.

I meant magic as in "Only damageable by magic", not "Can use magic". There's a difference.

Quote :: Be close of your friend and even closer of your enemies. Even if I feeds them with items

And, about as often, your caravan workers.

Quote :: I doubt the Isolon Eye work like that .

And I doubt no other method works for repelling Predators. Just look at how many methods there are to repel humans.

Quote :: In condition the authorities can prove it's bandits and not predators who did attack ,most of the actions are not done in town but in the wildness. The predators will be accused first.

If a Caravan returns with arrows and bullet holes sticking through the supplies and the majority of those returning are not in one piece, they're going to be thinking bandit.

Quote :: In general attacking of caravans are a well-oiled business, the bandits sell their loots to other merchants who sell on the market. When a merchants hire bandits it's not only for protection but to attack the others competitors.

This I'll agree with 100%

Quote :: If you are as skilled as Gunther it won't a problem.

Gunther's "skill" is feeding the Predators with so much prey that they have no reason to hunt him instead.

Quote :: Sorry to not answer in order Mala but I stop the discussion right now because I'm tired.

No problem.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:42 pm

Quote :: I'll admit that none except the 120mm cannon are, but that's a standard tank armament. If you want to argue things like the Miratans, Delurians, and all don't use such fine by me.

Miratans and Delurans are in Felarya for military purposes, so I don't complain about their gears. And they do few trades with the others humans settlements

Quote :: If you don't notice, said weapons tend to be less-than-lethal to Neera's in the best of scenarios.

I correct my sentence I wanted to say many people with the brain of the chicken thinks these said weapons can kill predator easily.

Quote :: But as I said, vengeance only goes so far. They killed your friend? You'll be pissed. A dozen of your friends then attack and each have their asses handed to them? You're going to try and find some less direct way to get revenge. Like attack their family, or ruin their reputation.

I know all of this and most of the time it becomes an endless vendetta because none of the side wants to give up. This kind of conflicts can grow quickly out of control.

Quote :: If a Caravan returns with arrows and bullet holes sticking through the supplies and the majority of those returning are not in one piece, they're going to be thinking bandit.

It's true.

Quote :: Gas weapons and NBC gear could be easy though. While disgusting, mass-spam an area with Chlorine gas and walk through in a piss-soaked rag for your caravan. You'll need to properly seal the goods, but it'll work miraculously against non-wind magic enemies. And saturation fire is also not too hard to accomplish, especially since with Faeries you don't need to hit their body: Only the fragile wing.

It's a good solution except if the area is too vast for a mass-spam solution and it will be difficult to maintain it but it can be a good defense when you are surrounding or when the enemy is very close to the convoy Very Happy

Quote :: It will work against Fire and Ice elementals. Electrical elementals can be detected with any sort of energy monitoring objects. Earth ones potentially with seismic.

Yeah but predators have a good scan range, their range can be measured on kilometers while your device is meters

Quote :: And I doubt no other method works for repelling Predators. Just look at how many methods there are to repel humans.

I agree with you.

Quote :: But you encounter one hunting, more often than not. Predators are shown to often hunt on their own, so that they can work their own techniques.

Knowing it's a very long trip you do when you will have to pass through different vast areas, you will meet more than one predators.

Sorry to not answer in order again.

A convoy of freight is a trip during many days or month without no way of ressuplying, the goal is to spend the less time than possible. Even if you have the gears to kill them will you won't be able to chain battle with all the predators you meet during the travel.it's difficult to maintain a strong defense while you are mobile, a slow convoy has strong chance to be constantly attacked and to not reach its destination, the endurance is the main flaw of the convoy. It's a battle against the thime

The solution will be more to find a way to move the freight quickly, it's very difficult to attack fast convoy.

Edit: I want to precise something.

Quote :: EDIT: Point of this post is not how to defeat predator, but more to argue that conquering the path is going to work better in more scenarios than attempting to befriend them. Even if you somehow persuade the smart / sentient preds, you still have to worry about their outlaws and non-sentient preds.

I know perfectly all of this, don't worry.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:36 am

First I'd like to apologize Gwada, was a bit tired and snipey last night.

Anyways, the edit was more towards Karbo in general. If he felt this was turning into a "Human techniques against Predators" thread...

And I'd personally like to know where the Predator kilometer detection skills come from, considering Crisis has not cracked into the Deluran base and gone "Y halo thar". I'll concede that the range for human tech is not kilometers in most instances [well, beyond the seismic and perhaps the energy ones], but only hundreds of meters at best.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:55 am

No problem Mala, I'm sorry too Very Happy

Some of your suggestions are interesting, and you're right on many points.

Quote :: And I'd personally like to know where the Predator kilometer detection skills come from, considering Crisis has not cracked into the Deluran base and gone "Y halo thar". I'll concede that the range for human tech is not kilometers in most instances [well, beyond the seismic and perhaps the energy ones], but only hundreds of meters at best.

It's maybe due to their size and the the immense size environment, in Felarya we are in the same situation of mouse in our world, we have many opportunities to hide ourself. but a predator on the top of a building side tree can be easily out of range of a device even if it's only a few meters from us.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:10 pm

Pertaining to the trade routes/paths subject matter, what I want to know is, how have bandits fared against the military?

Somalia is wild territory with few civilized forces coming by to patrol the area, and is thus a haven for pirates.

But for routes currently watched/protected by the US, Russia or even China, how many bandits plague those areas?

How many bandits have recently won confrontations with the US military?

The Miratans are clearly more advanced than the US in ground combat... if, for instance, they are paid/called upon by merchants to protect their own people's convoys, what bandit force will overwhelm them? I do know oil tankers get US military protection, so it's not out of the realm of reality for military forces to protect cargo now, as long as it's important or lobbyists push for it. So the Miratans might defend their merchants' cargo.

I imagine the Miratan merchant convoys are probably fairly immune to bandits. Unless I'm just being ridiculous and bandits can beat the Miratans.

I'm not so sure about the Negavians or Delurans, though. They're probably far more vulnerable.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:07 pm

Raveolution wrote:: Pertaining to the trade routes/paths subject matter, what I want to know is, how have bandits fared against the military?

Somalia is wild territory with few civilized forces coming by to patrol the area, and is thus a haven for pirates.

But for routes currently watched/protected by the US, Russia or even China, how many bandits plague those areas?

How many bandits have recently won confrontations with the US military?

For the modern piracy on Earth there was an attack in the gulf of Aden in October 2000 against the USS Cole. you should watch this two links it will help you to understand.

http://www.icc-ccs.org/prc/piracyreport.php
http://www.icc-ccs.org/prc/piracy_maps_2006.php

In this kind of place there are many boats which use this route so you can not protect them all the ships they are too many and none army are allowed to sail in the international water. The modern pirates are as well-organized as a military force.

Raveolution wrote:: The Miratans are clearly more advanced than the US in ground combat... if, for instance, they are paid/called upon by merchants to protect their own people's convoys, what bandit force will overwhelm them? I do know oil tankers get US military protection, so it's not out of the realm of reality for military forces to protect cargo now, as long as it's important or lobbyists push for it. So the Miratans might defend their merchants' cargo.

I imagine the Miratan merchant convoys are probably fairly immune to bandits. Unless I'm just being ridiculous and bandits can beat the Miratans.

I'm not so sure about the Negavians or Delurans, though. They're probably far more vulnerable.

The Miratans don't do trade with the other humans settlement and their freights travel by their own dimensional gate they haveinside their base. It explained in the last chapters of Rin's adventure.

Edit: An army is efficient to protect a territory, to attack another country, or fight another army or the enemy is clearly identified. When the enemy is hidden among the civilians they are in difficulties, you can't know distinguish civilian from a bandits. In this kind of situation they are similar to policemen, they are well-armed but they work in the same way as the police. Here it's investigation first.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:47 am

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: For the modern piracy on Earth there was an attack in the gulf of Aden in October 2000 against the USS Cole. you should watch this two links it will help you to understand.

I thought the USS Cole was hit by suicide bombers?

Quote :: http://www.icc-ccs.org/prc/piracyreport.php
http://www.icc-ccs.org/prc/piracy_maps_2006.php

In this kind of place there are many boats which use this route so you can not protect them all the ships they are too many and none army are allowed to sail in the international water. The modern pirates are as well-organized as a military force.

But, according to the map, not well organized enough to terrorize any US territory or Russian port. Not even the Phillippines. Seems they almost entirely operate in the less advanced parts of the world, which is admittedly bad enough, as you said wild untamed lands make good bandit breeding grounds.

Quote :: The Miratans don't do trade with the other humans settlement and their freights travel by their own dimensional gate they haveinside their base. It explained in the last chapters of Rin's adventure.

True, I wanted to express a hypothetical but first we have to start off with ^^^ those basic facts.

Quote :: Edit: An army is efficient to protect a territory, to attack another country, or fight another army or the enemy is clearly identified. When the enemy is hidden among the civilians they are in difficulties, you can't know distinguish civilian from a bandits. In this kind of situation they are similar to policemen, they are well-armed but they work in the same way as the police. Here it's investigation first.

It's impossible to be perfectly bandit proof, and untamed lands make it harder to deal with them than tamed lands.

But all the oceans everywhere used to be pirate havens. The whole pacific region between the US and Japan looks pirate-free, and even the US <---> Europe routes look pirate-free except for, what island is that, Crete?... evidence that wild lands can be tamed.

Question is, if that were a map of Felarya, will the bandits be cleared out first, or the Preds?

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:07 am

Raveolution wrote:: I thought the USS Cole was hit by suicide bombers?

I learn you something, it happen terrorists hire pirates . One of the greatest fears, it's the terrorist hire pirates to attack oil tankers to use them in suicidal attacks against the ports. That's why the oil tankers are protected now.

Raveolution wrote:: But, according to the map, not well organized enough to terrorize any US territory or Russian port. Not even the Phillippines. Seems they almost entirely operate in the less advanced parts of the world, which is admittedly bad enough, as you said wild untamed lands make good bandit breeding grounds.

Unfortunately yes, because except the ports the pirates control the greatest parts of the trade route. Even if the port is safe the boats have to leave the port to reach another port during the travel they are at mercy of the pirates. It's like the concept of the temporary checkpoints I explained previous post the goal of the convoy is to reach them the fastest way as possible.

The problem the boats have to pass through these areas and the less advanced parts are more numerous than the more advanced one and it's in the less parts you find the raw materials necessary for the advanced countries.

It's not a question of firepower but who controls the area.

Raveolution wrote:: It's impossible to be perfectly bandit proof, and untamed lands make it harder to deal with them than tamed lands.

But all the oceans everywhere used to be pirate havens. The whole pacific region between the US and Japan looks pirate-free, and even the US <---> Europe routes look pirate-free except for, what island is that, Crete?... evidence that wild lands can be tamed.

I know perfectly all of this, you can't learn me something.

The problem is not a question of tamed lands or not but how fast the army can intervene, because the localizations are very difficult in deep sea. A boat is attacked by pirates if there is not an satellite alarms which will indicate where the boat is, there are few chance the crew are rescued in time.

Raveolution wrote:: Question is, if that were a map of Felarya, will the bandits be cleared out first, or the Preds?

None of them,because the whole world of Felarya is vast, unstable and untamed place so you will find some well-protected place but they are few to pose a serious threat to them.

It will depend who control the area for the example near the great dimensional gate of Ur-Sagol is controlled by bandits because the gate repel the predators, but the situation is different when you are near the giant tree or inside the Miratan base.

Edit: Felarya is bigger than Earth.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:07 pm

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Raveolution wrote:: I thought the USS Cole was hit by suicide bombers?

I learn you something, it happen terrorists hire pirates . One of the greatest fears, it's the terrorist hire pirates to attack oil tankers to use them in suicidal attacks against the ports. That's why the oil tankers are protected now.

Uh, pirates are profit motivated. They don't want to die because they want to be paid. Terrorists are the ones who are suicidal.

And apparently the protection given to oil tankers is quite successful. Even across 6000 solid miles of Pacific Ocean.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Raveolution wrote:: But, according to the map, not well organized enough to terrorize any US territory or Russian port. Not even the Phillippines. Seems they almost entirely operate in the less advanced parts of the world, which is admittedly bad enough, as you said wild untamed lands make good bandit breeding grounds.

Unfortunately yes, because except the ports the pirates control the greatest parts of the trade route.

But the Pacific Ocean, which has no pirate attacks listed, looks pretty great to me. Or is there a larger route that I'm missing?

[quote="gwadahunter2222"]

Quote :: Even if the port is safe the boats have to leave the port to reach another port during the travel they are at mercy of the pirates. It's like the concept of the temporary checkpoints I explained previous post the goal of the convoy is to reach them the fastest way as possible.

Um, okay. So where along the entire Pacific ocean do they get attacked?

Quote :: The problem the boats have to pass through these areas and the less advanced parts are more numerous than the more advanced one and it's in the less parts you find the raw materials necessary for the advanced countries.

It's not a question of firepower but who controls the area.

Less advanced areas down south of the main Pacific Ocean are pirate havens. Check. Yet protected oil tankers can cross the entire Pacific Ocean without being successfully hit. That was kinda my point.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Raveolution wrote:: It's impossible to be perfectly bandit proof, and untamed lands make it harder to deal with them than tamed lands.

But all the oceans everywhere used to be pirate havens. The whole pacific region between the US and Japan looks pirate-free, and even the US <---> Europe routes look pirate-free except for, what island is that, Crete?... evidence that wild lands can be tamed.

I know perfectly all of this, you can't learn me something.

I can't learn you anything? Well I can't discuss much of anything with someone who knows it all.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:44 pm

Raveolution wrote:: Uh, pirates are profit motivated. They don't want to die because they want to be paid. Terrorists are the ones who are suicidal.

All the terrorist are not suicidal, and the terrorist use the same methods as pirates. The attack against the USS Cole is based on the same way the pirates attack the boats except it doesn't en in the same way.

Raveolution wrote:: And apparently the protection given to oil tankers is quite successful. Even across 6000 solid miles of Pacific Ocean.

The oil tankers have to deliver, Europe,Africa,Asia and Australia, the Pacific Ocean connects only Asia, Australia and America. Convoys from Middle-Orient through the Pacific Ocean will be too long, too expansive and too dangerous. The Pacific Ocean is very unstable due too the many tsunamis happen due to the important geological activities which happen here. There are a belt of Volcanoes under the entire Pacific Ocean, 90% of the earthquakes of the world happen here and 80% are the biggest one.

Raveolution wrote:: But the Pacific Ocean, which has no pirate attacks listed, looks pretty great to me. Or is there a larger route that I'm missing?

Since the moment a trade route will appear in the Pacific Ocean, you will start to find pirates, the trade routes always attract them.

Raveolution wrote:: Um, okay. So where along the entire Pacific ocean do they get attacked?

You repeat yourself, most of the pirates attack happen where the traffic are very important, the Pacific Ocean connects few countries and it's very long and dangerous, the risk to face a Tsunami during the trip is too high. At the level of navigation it's not safe to travel through the Pacific Ocean, there are few lands you can reach in case of shipwreck.

Raveolution wrote:: Less advanced areas down south of the main Pacific Ocean are pirate havens. Check. Yet protected oil tankers can cross the entire Pacific Ocean without being successfully hit. That was kinda my point.

A trade route between the Pacific Ocean will be too long and will deliver few countries, and the danger of the Tsunamis are very important.
The criminalities is a unwanted consequence of the human activities. The more the activities are important the more you will find criminalities.

I think we will stop this discussion here because it's going nowhere

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:20 pm

Okay. Trade is seriously depressed in Felarya due to Giant preds. Fools who don't know about giant preds will try it.

The solution to Felarya is air convoys. It keeps you far above the terrestrial preds which cuts out a huge portion of your problems. Air combat support keeps most of the fairies and harpies away. That leaves air bandits which the entire civilized universe is already used to dealing with. Air convoys also make it harder for bandits to participate at all, since they now need an infrastructure for providing fuel for attacks.

I'll put air convoys against any solution that anyone has, for ensuring safer trade routes. Smile

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:15 pm

Raveolution wrote:: Okay. Trade is seriously depressed in Felarya due to Giant preds. Fools who don't know about giant preds will try it.

I don't share this point of view, it will depend where, when and what you convoy.
The boats are very slow but they can carry more products.
The ground is the most dangerous but you can go anywhere in land for example narrow place and the stealthiest.
The planes are the fastest but the most expansive, they can't go only in place where you can land.
For example to cross the Akaptor desert you have to travel on the ground because it's impossible to fly due to the sageras which are protection too against flying creatures. To go to an island it will depend on the size of the island, a small island you will use small plane to the light and important goods but most of the time it will be the plane.

Raveolution wrote:: The solution to Felarya is air convoys. It keeps you far above the terrestrial preds which cuts out a huge portion of your problems. Air combat support keeps most of the fairies and harpies away. That leaves air bandits which the entire civilized universe is already used to dealing with. Air convoys also make it harder for bandits to participate at all, since they now need an infrastructure for providing fuel for attacks.

I'll put air convoys against any solution that anyone has, for ensuring safer trade routes.

You forget the sageras which are threat to any flying creatures and machines.
the weather conditions which can affect the fly in many way notably the visibility a mist can be very dangerous and the land configuration if they are enough space to land with the planes and many areas in Felarya are bane to air convoys the mist ocean for example. these two factors play an important role if you fly in a storm you are at the mercy of the elements and to any creatures which master air or lightening the stormseeker, lightning elemental, air elemental, the the storm sprite and blue sphinx which can easily defeat an entire fleet. And a nocturnal attack can be very effective.

And last point an air convoy can't go anywhere and can't carry many things, with an air convoy you can go anywhere where there are airports or place to land. So town or village in the deep jungle you can land to the river but at this moment you are vulnerable to underwater attack.

About the airport you need to develop two ways to maintain this structure. One by the ground to provide the fuel and the piece to repair and to maintain the planes, the aerial for the important needs.

The security have to be more important both inside and outside, the air convoy are the most vulnerable when they are on the ground.

Raveolution wrote:: Air convoys also make it harder for bandits to participate at all, since they now need an infrastructure for providing fuel for attacks.

It has been shown it's possible to attack a plane with a single rocket shot from the ground and even if there is an escort. An air convoy is vulnerable to any high range attack from the ground because the plane are too big to dodge. And when the convoy is on the ground the bandits can attack it directly or infiltrate themselves and attack during the fly and hijack the plane.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:28 am

I guess I didn't clarify on that. I assumed you don't fly over excessively dangerous areas. Map and evade storms and other hot spots. Weather radars do that now. And don't fly over the mist ocean or Akaptor desert. If you must, then fly very high overhead, above the weather zone. Hire mages to move huge aircraft full of goods around, until propulsion technology catches up. (It is possible to have a supertanker sized airship move fast on its own power, but not right away.)

HIRE MERCS to stop the odd air bandit.

Lots of unsafe or unreachable areas go unserviced, at least until they make that land safe for landings and also purchase enough firepower and protection to make it safe.

In the end, there is still no perfectly safe landing place in Felarya - some spots are safer than other places. Bandits cannot become extinct but they can be minimized.

It's a numbers game.

Subject: Re: Trade routes, paths, etc. Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:58 am

Raveolution wrote:: HIRE MERCS to stop the odd air bandit.

It looks simple and good on the paper but the application is another way, because it will depend on who have the best knowledge on the area, the bandits who generally are born and live in the area and know the best place to ambush or to hide themselves or the mercenaries who are mostly foreigners and gather informations which are generally given by the native.
So you can hire mercenaries but it doesn't mean they will bring an end to the problems, because both are the winners, if the mercenaries catch all the bandits they won't be any dangers and there is no real reason to hire them. That's why sometime some mercenaries become bandits too.
The mercenaries don't solve the conflicts they live from the conflicts.

Hiring mercenaries works in the two ways, if you hire mercenaries to defend your convoy you can buy to attacks the convoy.

Raveolution wrote:: Lots of unsafe or unreachable areas go unserviced, at least until they make that land safe for landings and also purchase enough firepower and protection to make it safe.

It will more depend on the land configuration than the firepower, if the land can't allow to build and maintain big infrastructures necessary to the have a great firepower. The place need to allow big infrastructure and the firepower.
And a big firepower won't protect from a surprise attack, it just require the bandits have to more subtle, that's all. There are many example of countries which have been attacked by opponent whose the firepower was inferior to them.

Raveolution wrote:: In the end, there is still no perfectly safe landing place in Felarya - some spots are safer than other places. Bandits cannot become extinct but they can be minimized.

It's a pure utopia when you think the criminality have a fall in general it's when the biggest attack happen because you let your guard down and the attacks are not constant but periodic. You can have during a year a high risk to be attacked, the year after a low risk and many years after BOOM! the attacks come back. Contrary to the security the criminality don't have to be constant. The criminal are like virus, you can be protected a moment until a new and a big attack because the attack evolve before the defense. The bandits have all their time to prepare their attack, until they didn't strike first or you won't have the proof of an imminent attack you can't do anything.

You can believe they can be minimized but it's not true in reality they are just waiting the right time to attack. That's why it's important to be watchful when you said something can be minimized it shows a big flaw in your guard because you are less prepared to deal with it.

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