I think therefore I am! (Predator Self-Awareness and More)

I think much of the reasoning that has gone on in this thread is the result of assuming that predators think like humans.

To properly assess predator morality regarding human prey or what-have-you you must disregard all the values that a human has, including the ones that would require that kind of thing be rationally justified in the first place.

I think that predators are aware that humans are intelligent, however they may not be aware that humans are sentient.
There is a difference. As pPinnyDood Pigs and apparently a species of parrot are intelligent. Are they sentient? No, they're not.
Krisexy mentioned dolphins. Apparently studies have shown that dolphins are sentient. They are also self-aware. This differentiates them from the aforementioned parrot, which is not. They can have subjective experiences, aware of them self as something not part of the universe.

Wikipedia wrote:

Without self-awareness the self perceives and accepts the thoughts that are occurring to be who the self is. Self-awareness gives one the option or choice to choose thoughts being thought rather than simply thinking the thoughts that are stimulated from the accumulative events leading up to the circumstances of the moment.

Obviously, something that is self aware is capable of much greater thoughts than something which is not. A non-self aware being can not think about thinking, it can not ask itself why it is thinking what it is thinking or decide to think something else. It is entirely reactionary, only responding to the world around it.

We have this discussion because we are self aware. One of the things self aware beings do is think about their actions and behaviour and then compare them to their own internal standards and values. When they don't match up, we feel bad.
(Of course, not everyone is completely aware of oneself at all times. If one is Self-conscious, they are in a state of extreme self awareness. The feeling of "everyone is looking at me" isn't so much that everyone is looking at one, but that one is looking at oneself with great scrutiny.)

The giant tauric/hybrid predators, being sapient are intelligent, sentient and self aware.
What we are doing wrong is comparing the behaviour of our predator characters to our own standards and values, when in fact predators would have completely different ones.
To expand on that.
We are self aware, with all that entails. When we know that another being is self aware and intelligent, we are aware that it is similar to ourselves. Therefore, we can (and do) attribute our own thoughts to it. Empathy is the result.
Of course, empathy is usually automatically applied. When you see something bad happening to someone, you automatically empathise with them.

(Well you do, I don't. I actually have a distinct lack of empathy. This is counteracted by my high self awareness, which results in a kind of artificial empathy that is manually generated by my conscious mind.)

Now, this is the part where many conclusions could be drawn, I have shown one. I could come up with more (and I might later).
Conclusion 1:
Predators simply do not empathise with their prey. They are also not aware of this as living in the jungle isn't conducive to self-aware thoughts. They don't think about why they do what they do as much as humans do. They wouldn't really need to rationalise things to themselves because their existence would be far more reactionary.

This is also why predators raised by humans would be reluctant to eat them. It's not just that they were raised by humans and feel they they owe all humans, it's that they are more self aware and have human values which is why they would also refuse to eat nekos and other human-sized sentient species.

This also removes the need for that superiority sermon that predators do when they are asked why they eat humans/how they can be ok with eating humans.

TL;DR:
Giant predators are not human, stop treating them as if they are.

This part is for Warrior:

I came up with everything on the spot in the space of about 40 minutes. Therefore there's bound to be something wrong so please, ask questions. I wouldn't be surprised to be told I'm doing it all wrong here.

Just to clarify, sentience can pretty much be the ability to feel something. A wolf could be sentient since if you wounded it, it would feel pain. The word you're looking for is SAPIENCE.

Also, IMO, the whole thing with the predators is just common sense. Predators weren't raised by humans. Therefore, they don't have the same ethics as we do. It's eat or be eaten for them. Pretty much Zion summed it up the best way in the other thread.

Yeah, I think the bottom line is that some predators couldn't care less if humans or other food sources were sentient. They gotta eat, and its a dog eat dog world in Felarya.

Not that I personally support them doing it, mind you. But it's an understandable mindset, considering their childhoods and methods used to raise them far differ from our own.

Sean Okotami wrote:

Just to clarify, sentience can pretty much be the ability to feel something. A wolf could be sentient since if you wounded it, it would feel pain. The word you're looking for is SAPIENCE.

I was using a slightly different meaning from the very basic definition of sentience. By the definition I've used, a wolf is not sentient.
Sapience is a little different in definition. It includes a few other things. (Specifically the things that make humans Homo sapiens. We are the definition of sapient.)

It pretty much all come down to values. Keep in mind that hybrid predators are both human-like and animal-like. They can talk and think like a human, but life for them is closer to an animal, where their daily lives pretty much amount to surviving to live another day. While they can form groups, they're really closer to tribes and pretty much amount to the philosophy of strengths in numbers. Human values, since they weren't raised by them, is entirely alien to them. Like I said, Fiona exemplifies the best of both. She was raised with human values, thus know that humans aren't gummy bears, but at the same time, she has to eat what comes her way if she wants to live, whether she likes it or not.

Sean Okotami wrote:

It pretty much all come down to values. Keep in mind that hybrid predators are both human-like and animal-like. They can talk and think like a human, but life for them is closer to an animal, where their daily lives pretty much amount to surviving to live another day.

I've already said that, as you can see by the quote below and also by the rest of the post. Sean, did you actually read it thoroughly?

Quote :

They are also not aware of this as living in the jungle isn't conducive to self-aware thoughts.

Sean Okotami wrote:

Like I said, Fiona exemplifies the best of both. She was raised with human values, thus know that humans aren't gummy bears, but at the same time, she has to eat what comes her way if she wants to live, whether she likes it or not.

Just to clarify, she does try to avoid eating humans as much as possible. She's gone to bed more than once still hungry because she refused to eat humans. Of course, now that she's an adult and has been living in the jungle for so long, she's better at finding food. So the instances where she'd even be tempted to eat a human are relatively few these days.

Obviously I have not explained this well enough in the original post. However I'm dead tired and will expand on this subject in the morning.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Obviously I have not explained this well enough in the original post. However I'm dead tired and will expand on this subject in the morning.

Overly long first post was overly long, so I didn't pay much attention. And if you already stated that it came down to values, what was the point of discussing this?

I don't really think we should overthink these things, it's all common sense. Predators may be raised by humans and adopt some of their values, true, but we must remember that they are *not* human to begin with, they're wild animals. Animals that can talk and eerily resemble us, but wild animals after all. And for animals daily life is staying alive no matter what they have to do. It's only a given their morals would be radically different to that of humans. That for the lot of them we are tasty should cause no moral dilemma, we are just another prey creature that puts up a fight

Sean Okotami wrote:

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Obviously I have not explained this well enough in the original post. However I'm dead tired and will expand on this subject in the morning.

Overly long first post was overly long, so I didn't pay much attention. And if you already stated that it came down to values, what was the point of discussing this?

Sean, come on man. A post being "too long" is NEVER an excuse to jump into a discussion without knowing all the facts. You gotta read these things through before you weigh in. You write and read stories, that post was not long at all.

I also didn't get half of what he said in his self-awareness gig when the answer is dog simple: predators are not raised by humans, therefore they don't have the same values.

I personally think most predators are well aware of their prey's sapience, but don't care.

After all, they are just food in their eyes, why should they care if they're sapient?

itsmeyouidiot wrote:

I personally think most predators are well aware of their prey's sapience, but don't care.

After all, they are just food in their eyes, why should they care if they're sapient?

If that is the case then they fit our general definition of a monster, and lazy for that matter, however that is only defined by our own moral reasoning.

Yet when your survivial is on the line one tends to be narrow minded in their perception of things and Felarya is all about survival.

In short a predator can't afford to care, they need to be opptunistic, that goes for both the hybrids and none hybrids. A human will not excuse this fact when they label pedators as being monsters; we always like to take the moral high ground when it comes to justifying our own horrific actions, in this case killing the perdator, it's just human nature. Likewise I highly doubt a human in Felarya is going to accept the fact that humans are going to be preyed upon so that a predator can survive.

In order to ensure their own survival I highly doubt most humans would have any qualms about committing genocide against the hybribs if they could get away with it.

In the end humans; who have a great nack for killing, and predators; who need to eat to survive, are no different; it all comes down to your personal views on morality as authors.

Not entirely true, Cauldron. It's been established that humans are neither a staple food source, nor a necessary ingredient in the diets of predators. Humans are considered a "treat", with the original analogy being to Twinkies. If predators needed to eat humans to survive, that does gray things up a little bit. However, it goes from being "sorry, you need to die and have your wife and children mourn you so that I may live" to "sorry, you have to die and have your wife and children mourn you so that I can have a Twinkie".

I concede that most predators are unaware of a human's sapience, and thus can be somewhat excused. Those that are aware of it, and acknowledge it... those are monsters in every sense of the term.

They'll eat whatever small enough comes first anyway, so even though a human is rare for a predator, it still needs to eat to live.

Somehow this interesting little conversation is reminding me of a Felarya comic I found on DA a short time ago. part of it involved a fairy questioning human emotions, since she considered humans to be food. it wasnt until she was forced to throw up a little boys family that she realizes what a horrible thing she has done, she pretty much ends up in a mental breakdown over it.

Predators just dont realize what they are doing is what we consider to be wrong.

another point is that thr giant preds are at the top of the food chain in Felarya much like we are at the top here on earth. Both sides go about eating and hunting what they please with no true undrstanding of those futher down. humans are so narrow minded by this that when they see something thats higher up on the chain than they are, it is presumed to be a threat to survival. A Felarya Predator would not know that, since the world they live in follows the law of the jungle "eat or be eaten, kill or be killed" with no sense of superiority involved. Sure what we have seen from comics and other storys show that some predators enjoy it in a way that sickens us, but they just simply enjoy it because they were actually succesful in a hunt and they need this satisfaction.

Sean Okotami wrote:

They'll eat whatever small enough comes first anyway, so even though a human is rare for a predator, it still needs to eat to live.

That's more or less the point I was making as far as predators and humans in their diet is concerned, if the opportunity arises they probably will take it. Even if the number of humans consumed is very low that still won't change anyone's viewpoint on the matter.

My overall point was that it is a grey on grey argument and it is up to the individual author was to which prespective to take, if at all. I don't think this is something we need to give a definite answer to.

Yes, but my point on the matter is that even if the predators did not eat humans, they could still survive.

this is where we could define what a "monster" is

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Yes, but my point on the matter is that even if the predators did not eat humans, they could still survive.

They could, but ignorance on their part is a big factor; it is also highly unlikely a predator would give up the chance of, if the situation dictated it, a human who would be an easy catch, or go hunt another animal who is a mile away.

On the same token a human does not need to take revenge on a predator who ate their firend or family member, however if they were given the opportunity they probably would. It would take a very strong heart and a lot of empathy for a human, given the chance, not to kill a predator knowing what it is and what it had done.

...Wasn't it, like, part of the world setting that Felarya induces voraciousness in pretty much every thing?

That even humans might succumb to the urge to swallow a tiny?

CauldronBorn24 wrote:

They could, but ignorance on their part is a big factor; it is also highly unlikely a predator would give up the chance of, if the situation dictated it, a human who would be an easy catch, or go hunt another animal who is a mile away.

On the same token a human does not need to take revenge on a predator who ate their firend or family member, however if they were given the opportunity they probably would. It would take a very strong heart and a lot of empathy for a human, given the chance, not to kill a predator knowing what it is and what it had done.

I'm not counting the ignorant ones. I've already said that most preds probably have no idea that humans are every bit as sapient as they are. There are a few, however, who do have an idea of it. Those are the monsters.

Vengeance for the sake of vengeance is also monstrous, on that we can agree. However, I'd have zero qualms about killing a predator to save another person whose life is threatened by it.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

CauldronBorn24 wrote:

They could, but ignorance on their part is a big factor; it is also highly unlikely a predator would give up the chance of, if the situation dictated it, a human who would be an easy catch, or go hunt another animal who is a mile away.

On the same token a human does not need to take revenge on a predator who ate their firend or family member, however if they were given the opportunity they probably would. It would take a very strong heart and a lot of empathy for a human, given the chance, not to kill a predator knowing what it is and what it had done.

I'm not counting the ignorant ones. I've already said that most preds probably have no idea that humans are every bit as sapient as they are. There are a few, however, who do have an idea of it. Those are the monsters.

Vengeance for the sake of vengeance is also monstrous, on that we can agree. However, I'd have zero qualms about killing a predator to save another person whose life is threatened by it.

There are willing monsters on both sides and both sides will commit monsterous actions out of ignorance or necessity.

Black Aquila wrote:

...Wasn't it, like, part of the world setting that Felarya induces voraciousness in pretty much every thing?

That even humans might succumb to the urge to swallow a tiny?

I think the human will is too strong to sucuumb to that as it is not part of our natural behavior. Likewise Nekos who spend most of their lives living in human dominated society are less likely to prey on tinies.

Quote :

another point is that thr giant preds are at the top of the food chain in Felarya much like we are at the top here on earth.

That is not entirely accurate. While they are higher up on the food chain than humans, the giant hybrids are nowhere near the top. Many species of large predator animal, venemous animal, carnivorous plant and poisonous plant are more than capable of seriously injuring, killing and even eating them. The jungle is a harsh place for the giants as well, perhaps moreso since they lack organized societies, large-scale support networks, medicine beyond the occaisional souls who know healing magic and/or natural remedies, and technology more advanced than hand-tools or simple weapons. Living out in the wilderness is a dangerous life.

Quote :

humans are so narrow minded by this that when they see something thats higher up on the chain than they are, it is presumed to be a threat to survival.

There's nothing narrow-minded about that. In Felarya, anything that is higher than you on the food chain IS a serious threat to your survival, and needs to be taken into account if you want to survive. There's no such thing as being over-prepared.

Quote :

A Felarya Predator would not know that, since the world they live in follows the law of the jungle "eat or be eaten, kill or be killed"

Actually, I think they'd feel the same way towards dangers as a human would. They would try to avoid it, or defend themselves as best they can. Unfortunately, because of their large size and lifestyle they can neither hide, nor rely on advanced technology to help. The giant hybrids ONLY have their wits, magic, and whatever improvised tools or weapons they can make themselves.