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 Ironing out the Elementals.

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Shady Knight
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PostSubject: Ironing out the Elementals.   Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:24 pm

Okay, this has bugged me far too much for far too long. There is a definite problem with elementals, considering almost everyone and their mother tried to come up with more and more ridiculous ideas for "elementals". The biggest problem each and everyone of them is "what kind element is pollution/star/swarm/machine/space/time/whatever?" Apparently, the description of elementals is way, way too vague and needs to be more specificied. First and foremost what must be defined is "what constitute an Element?" So far, as it appears, an Element in the mystical sense is something that can be manipulated with via magic. Examples include fire, plants, electricity, lava, light, etc. In fact, this is further solidified with the addition of Magic Elementals, which can only be created in zones incredibly rich with ambient magic. This should be the first step to more properly define elementals, as I can't take these ridiculously awful ideas anymore.


Last edited by Sean Okotami on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:43 pm

Err the idea of wanting to define better elementals is good but starting by calling others' ideas ridiculously awful is not a great way to open a subject...
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:34 pm

Karbo wrote:
Err the idea of wanting to define better elementals is good but starting by calling others' ideas ridiculously awful is not a great way to open a subject...

Avoiding the topic by criticizing the OP's wording instead of actually starting the discussion is always not a great way to open a subject.
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Karbo
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:07 am

um yeah sure. And always nit-picking about me moderating stuff won't advance things either Rolling Eyes

Sean Okotami wrote:
First and foremost what must be defined is "what constitute an Element?" So far, as it appears, an Element in the mystical sense is something that can be manipulated with via magic. Examples include fire, plants, electricity, lava, light, etc. In fact, this is further solidified with the addition of Magic Elementals, which can only be created in zones incredibly rich with ambient magic. .

Well elementals in Felarya are basically spirits animating matter and creating a body out of it, that's not really elements in the prime sense of the term ( fire, air, water etc ). As I see it , elementals in other worlds are more or less limited to those, but in Felarya they can sometimes expand their reach a bit because of the magic saturation that allow them to do so.
So things like a let's say pollution elemental have an infinitesimal chance of happening, mostly because Felarya is a pristine world with very little pollution , but that's not a zero chance under the right circumstances. But of course such cases would be one of a kind, with one chance on millions and wouldn't certainly count as a sub-species.
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:52 am

Karbo wrote:
um yeah sure. And always nit-picking about me moderating stuff won't advance things either Rolling Eyes

And nit-picking other people's nit-picking helps even less so Razz

Karbo wrote:
Well elementals in Felarya are basically spirits animating matter and creating a body out of it, that's not really elements in the prime sense of the term ( fire, air, water etc ). As I see it , elementals in other worlds are more or less limited to those, but in Felarya they can sometimes expand their reach a bit because of the magic saturation that allow them to do so.
So things like a let's say pollution elemental have an infinitesimal chance of happening, mostly because Felarya is a pristine world with very little pollution , but that's not a zero chance under the right circumstances. But of course such cases would be one of a kind, with one chance on millions and wouldn't certainly count as a sub-species.

well even though your description makes sense of how it could happen, an elemental not composed of a single element is kinda... off. I'd propose just giving a different name to them. Since an elemental's more specific name is "Living element", why not use that nomenclature for when stepping outside of actual elements, for example in the case of a pollution elemental, just rename it "living pollution"to prevent petty arguments from breaking out

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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:00 pm

Karbo wrote:
Well elementals in Felarya are basically spirits animating matter and creating a body out of it, that's not really elements in the prime sense of the term ( fire, air, water etc ). As I see it , elementals in other worlds are more or less limited to those, but in Felarya they can sometimes expand their reach a bit because of the magic saturation that allow them to do so.
So things like a let's say pollution elemental have an infinitesimal chance of happening, mostly because Felarya is a pristine world with very little pollution , but that's not a zero chance under the right circumstances. But of course such cases would be one of a kind, with one chance on millions and wouldn't certainly count as a sub-species.
The problem is that a line must be drawn somewhere as to define what could be suitable to animate and what isn't, because this definition leaves thing far too open. For example, assuming an adventurer removes his leather armor to take a bath in a safe pond. The current definition can be interpreted that an elemental spirit could make a body out of the adventurer's armor, making some form of Leather Elemental. Given the nature of elemental spirits as highly magic, the most logical conclusion as to what would be suitable for them to animate would be something that can easily be manipulated by magic.
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:15 pm

Or we could use the different schools of magic to define them.
Fire magic = Fire Elemental
Nature magic = Nature Elemental
Darkness magic = Darkness Elemental
Etc. etc.

Since there is no such thing as pollution magic, a line can be drawn there without being too arbitrary...
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:09 pm

I stumbled across a certain thread and this argument suddenly made more sense. I saw the terms "metal elemental" and "machine elemental" being thrown around, which kinda miffed me because I sorta thought inorganic compounds were unsuitable for forming the complex organs required in an elemental's body. Not only that, but going off of AnimeJunkie and CauldronBorn's "magical conductivity" idea, machinery made from alloys and stuff like that would have little to no conduciveness which is a requisite for animation, or at least I think it's needed. I hope I'm not just babbling off non-sense from out of left field again.
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:08 pm

well also when it comes to elementals and the like, the spirit that bonds with the element is pretty much stuck with what they bind to and treats it like a normal body (ie: they gain mortality) the bonding with an element allows them to mold an actual body, bonding with something like a leather armor or something that already has a rigid form they can't mold into a proper body. So while a bonding spirit may think bonding with a suit of leather armor is a good idea, in fact it's not too wise since they would be stuck in a body like that and is unable to make a new one, so it's stuck as a suit of leather armor til the suit is destroyed. By bonding with a base element they can form it into a proper working body, which is good. So that puts some limitations on what they can do.
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:48 pm

about the machine elementals, I was musing, not actually thinking of such. geez. >.>
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:49 pm

A spirit taking machines, leather, or other objects as a host should probably be referred to as a possession.
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:53 pm

The problem with a "machine" elemental is that a machine is made up of many different parts, likely with different compositions. Having a "machine" elemental is akin to, and as ridiculous as, having an "animal" elemental - both being things more complex than a single "element" (magically using that term, not scientifically).
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:58 pm

I thought I already said, I was just musing, and didn't actually consider the concept? sweatdrop
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:08 pm

I think another line should be drawn here:

I think we shall keep separated what is technology to what is magic.

Little example that is being said in this thread: I do not see an elemental taking possession of a machine (like a jet-bike). It just seems off for me... I think elementals should only act in what is fondamentaly natural.
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:10 pm

is anyone even listening? I said it multiple times now. I was NOT really considering the idea. I was MUSING.
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:12 pm

calm down <.<
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:32 pm

It isn't so much a response to your idea TryMeIke, there's an underlying issue that needs to be looked into concerning what a spirit can or cannot use as a body, and when it should be considered an Elemental/Possessed object/Golem etc. etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:33 pm

TryMeIke wrote:
is anyone even listening? I said it multiple times now. I was NOT really considering the idea. I was MUSING.

This is a topic that has been brought up in many different threads for quite some time. Your post may have reminded Sean to make this topic, but it isn't just about you. Calm down ^^

Elementals remain a very underdeveloped, and largely vaguely defined race. They could do with some fine-tuning, I think.

Personally, I think elementals should be limited to possessing natural "elements". Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Metal, and derivatives of them like Lava, Ice, Lightning, Mud, etc, etc. Artificial things, like machines, glass, leather, etc, are unsuitable for possesion, since they have been altered through an industrial process. This would still allow for a massive variety among Elementals, while still putting some limits on just what exactly can be used as a body.

Honestly, I couldn't see an Elemental even wanting to posses an artificial substance. They tend to be stiff, and focused. If I were an elemental, I'd want a body made of something simple, abundant in large quantities, and able to be easily formed into body parts.
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:40 pm

TryMeIke wrote:
is anyone even listening? I said it multiple times now. I was NOT really considering the idea. I was MUSING.

Ha ha, at this point it's not about who said it. It's a discussion topic. It will be discussed until a consensus is made.

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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:41 am

Glass can occur in natural ways a glass elemental is more a sub-type of earth or mineral made elemental. For machine, it depend in what the machine is done, the metallic parts can be used by some metal elemental during the creation of their body or the electricity stored into the battery can give birth to some kind of subtype of lightening elemental who can possess the electric components

The creations of a particular elemental depend mostly on environmental factors but as any kind of natural process it can be misled. Let's take some example, imagine a small junkyard is created by the accumulation of different metallic objects abandoned by adventures who met tragic fates. This junkyard can affect the local earth elementals which ends with different metallic component in their bodies. Another one, an hydraulic barrage is built to make electricity in a river where water elemental naturally occurs, the important of electricity can lead accidentally to the birth of lightening ones who will wander through through the electric cables.

Industrial activities can have a strong impact on the environment in overall what we call pollution elementals would be more a elemental whose the natural process of creation had been corrupted.
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:51 am

Quote :
Glass can occur in natural ways a glass elemental is more a sub-type of earth or mineral made elemental. For machine,

No. Glass cannot be manipulated and formed though, not without heating it to its melting point. An Elemental that possess glass wouldn't be able to move, or form body parts. I just used the example because it was silly.

Quote :
For machine, it depend in what the machine is done, the metallic parts can be used by some metal elemental during the creation of their body or the electricity stored into the battery can give birth to some kind of subtype of lightening elemental who can possess the electric components

Ummm.... Where is there going to be a big enough buildup of electrical parts to possess? Machine Elementals aren't just kind of silly, they are a non-issue since the materials to form them do not exist in large enough quantities anywhere on known Felarya. Not to mention, a machine elemental makes no sense. Elementals are supposed to be forces of nature, powerful masses of sentient magic that possess natural materials to give themselves form. Having elementals being able to possess artificial materials just seems...wrong.

I just think there needs to be a line draw between what an Elemental can, and can not possess. Naturally occuring elements work. They are abundant, they are simple, they are easily moldable. They allow for a huge variety, while keeping a limit to what an Elemental can do.
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:58 am

Here's what I think should be written into the rule, as I pretty much said on page one:

Organic compounds are most suitable for forming the complex organs in an elemental's body. Naturally occurring things like fire and electricity could be used too. If an actual body can be formed from a substance, that's where we draw the line.

In order for that to happen, the substance must have some magical conductivity. For the most part, high tech-machinery is not conducive due to the process used in creating it. They're not even suitable to be possessed because the spirit won't be able to magically animate the machinery, and animation means any form of movement including simple levitation. I still think low-tech machinery and objects can be suitable for possession as long as the metals or other substances that they're made from are kept close to their natural state.

A machine or sword forged from only basic elements and no alloys should have good magical conductivity and is suitable for "possession," but not "elementalization" (yeah, making up words in this mofo) as it can't be transformed from its rigid state to form complex organs.

(Ok, that's the last you see from me. I promise.)
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:02 am

gwadahunter2222 wrote:
Some stuff
I disagree with this gwada.
What you're proposing sounds like elemental can come into existence in any place where there's a concentration of something.

From my understanding and interpretation of the wiki, that's not how it works.

Quote :
However, once an elemental spirit has chosen a type of matter to inhabit, it will never be able to use another type.
From this we can determine that elementals choose what sort of matter to inhabit. Therefore, they are not intrinsically bound to anything until they make the choice.

This, combined with the fact that they are capable of reproducing with fairies to produce fairy hybrids like storm sprites implies to me that elemental reproduce somehow.
This probably involves two elementals and must take some amount of power to produce the new (unbound) spirit...

But in any case, elementals do not appear from nowhere. Their birth isn;t going to be effected by their environment so much as their 'parent's' choice of element.

Anyway they shouldn't be able to make their body out of anything, for a few reasons, one of which is the following scenario:
Adventurer: "My gun has been possessed by an evil spirit!"
Mage: "Fool, this is obviously a gun elemental."

We know that elementals form their "element" into a body with equivalent organs (I wouldn't call them regular. I don't think someone should be able to scan an elemental and point out the heart, lungs and kidneys, but there would be organs that served the purpose that the elemental needs.)

This kind of manipulation best takes places in homogeneous, unformed matter, like earth & clay, rock, lava, water, etc. But if an elemental tries to make their body out of, say, a computer, they're going to be fighting it every step of the way to form their body out of it.
It would take far more concentration to manipulate all the different materials that go into something like a computer. You've got different metals, silicon, and various types of plastic.
All these materials have vastly different properties.

Sure, an earth elemental could form their body in a place with a bit of landfill, so they'd get various bits of rubbish in their body. That doesn't make them a pollution elemental, that makes them an earth elemental that chose a poor spot to make their body. They'd probably view the trash embedded in them as sores or malignant tumours, something to be removed so their body could take its normal form.

gt500x wrote:
More Stuff

Not everyone has read the magical conductivity idea, it hasn't been posted on the forums yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:33 am

Another problem with the magical conductivity, which AJ implicitly brought up, is that while natural, it's not homogeneous. Sure, a silk robe may be made of natural material, that doesn't mean a spirit can possess it and make a Nature Elemental out of it, since there's too little of it. By contrast, possessing a tree, which we know are massive, will give it plenty of material to form a body out of. He may have to twist the tree a bit to give it semblance of a humanoid shape, if that's what the spirit wants, but it's a lot more efficient than a piece of cloth.
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gwadahunter2222
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PostSubject: Re: Ironing out the Elementals.   Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:24 am

rcs wrote:
No. Glass cannot be manipulated and formed though, not without heating it to its melting point.
This process occur in nature.

rcs wrote:
An Elemental that possess glass wouldn't be able to move, or form body parts. I just used the example because it was silly.
Like an elemental made of stone not clay just stone.

rcs wrote:
Elementals are supposed to be forces of nature, powerful masses of sentient magic that possess natural materials to give themselves form. Having elementals being able to possess artificial materials just seems...wrong.
What you call natural material the accurate term is raw material, artificial are natural or raw material transformed and refined to suit the taste of its creator.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

I disagree with this gwada.
What you're proposing sounds like elemental can come into existence in any place where there's a concentration of something.
Your interpretation of my point is completely wrong.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
From this we can determine that elementals choose what sort of matter to inhabit. Therefore, they are not intrinsically bound to anything until they make the choice.
But as I said the choice can be misled they doesn't make the perfect choice.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
This, combined with the fact that they are capable of reproducing with fairies to produce fairy hybrids like storm sprites implies to me that elemental reproduce somehow.
This probably involves two elementals and must take some amount of power to produce the new (unbound) spirit...
The mating with fairies is more mystical or magical than biological one.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
But in any case, elementals do not appear from nowhere.
I agree with you here but ...
Anime-Junkie wrote:
Their birth isn;t going to be effected by their environment so much as their 'parent's' choice of element.
hereditary with spiritual entity that's more speculation than fact

Anime-Junkie wrote:
This kind of manipulation best takes places in homogeneous, unformed matter, like earth & clay, rock, lava,water, etc.
Are you kidding, none of this elements are really homogeneous even air is not. And how they can't be unformed as they are the result of natural formation. The difference between artificial and natural is a artificial iis the exploitation of a natural resources to fulfil the needs of a creator.


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