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Malahite
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:05 pm

Decent trap against predators: Some form of trip-wire (Odds are they'll never see it) connected to something with a very strong source of poison. Predator is unlikely to notice it, or even the snapping of it. A small enough device, cared for correctly, will make it appear as nothing more than an injury from a stubborn branch. Give the Poison its time to act...
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:09 pm

Malahite wrote:
Decent trap against predators: Some form of trip-wire (Odds are they'll never see it) connected to something with a very strong source of poison. Predator is unlikely to notice it, or even the snapping of it. A small enough device, cared for correctly, will make it appear as nothing more than an injury from a stubborn branch. Give the Poison its time to act...
And some poison will work, despite comments to the contrary. Rin's mother was killed by the poison from a Kensha beast. A wristblade with a superhigh concentration of super enhanced Kensha poison will at least take care of giant nagas. The moment she grabs you, it's snakeskin boots city.

Also, a good idea is to copy Tonorion anti-magic traits. That might take some serious study of their genetics, but the payoff is absolutely huge. If you've got Tonorion anti-magic and a rapid fire large caliber (30mm or larger) railgun, what predator can't you bring down, especially at 1-2 clicks away?
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:54 am

Raveolution wrote:

And some poison will work, despite comments to the contrary. Rin's mother was killed by the poison from a Kensha beast. A wristblade with a superhigh concentration of super enhanced Kensha poison will at least take care of giant nagas. The moment she grabs you, it's snakeskin boots city.
And that still isn't the best we can do. Of course, these still rely on the fact that once the poison takes effect, there's no time for the Predator to seek aid. Doesn't help to have some White Mage casting Esuna on every Predator you (almost) kill.

wrote:
Also, a good idea is to copy Tonorion anti-magic traits. That might take some serious study of their genetics, but the payoff is absolutely huge. If you've got Tonorion anti-magic and a rapid fire large caliber (30mm or larger) railgun, what predator can't you bring down, especially at 1-2 clicks away?
Railguns alone are a death-sentence to most beings. Decent combination for soldiers to take on Pred's:

1) Anti-Magic traits, as you said, can be helpful. This takes away many benefits you can give the warrior though, so choose whether there will be a reliance on tech or magic early on.
2) Railgun of decent range. Again, very helpful. Much less drawbacks, though, except over-penetration. Very useful if you can add...
3) 'Bullet'-time soldiers. By this, I mean very high reaction times. Be it genetic engineering, combat stimm's, whatever, the ability to quickly modify aim, dodge attacks, revise attacks, etc, can come in very helpful here.
4) Something to discourage value as 'food'. This can work in any way from "Parasite, non-harmful to human, inside soldiers", to "Strap to loads of C4" to "Grey Goo device". If it gets the job done, it's worth keeping.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:49 pm

Finally...someone else who appreciates the power of railguns. Railguns kick ass cheers
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:30 pm

Malahite wrote:
Raveolution wrote:

And some poison will work, despite comments to the contrary. Rin's mother was killed by the poison from a Kensha beast. A wristblade with a superhigh concentration of super enhanced Kensha poison will at least take care of giant nagas. The moment she grabs you, it's snakeskin boots city.
And that still isn't the best we can do. Of course, these still rely on the fact that once the poison takes effect, there's no time for the Predator to seek aid. Doesn't help to have some White Mage casting Esuna on every Predator you (almost) kill.
White Mage? Is there actually a mage on Felarya that would help a Pred?

Malahite wrote:
Railguns alone are a death-sentence to most beings. Decent combination for soldiers to take on Pred's:

1) Anti-Magic traits, as you said, can be helpful. This takes away many benefits you can give the warrior though, so choose whether there will be a reliance on tech or magic early on.
2) Railgun of decent range. Again, very helpful. Much less drawbacks, though, except over-penetration. Very useful if you can add...
3) 'Bullet'-time soldiers. By this, I mean very high reaction times. Be it genetic engineering, combat stimm's, whatever, the ability to quickly modify aim, dodge attacks, revise attacks, etc, can come in very helpful here.
4) Something to discourage value as 'food'. This can work in any way from "Parasite, non-harmful to human, inside soldiers", to "Strap to loads of C4" to "Grey Goo device". If it gets the job done, it's worth keeping.
I would go for tech and try to counter all magic in the area, then railgun the crap out of the hostiles. Corporeal units = low hanging fruit. Bigger preds like mycodryads and swamp dryads = fuel air explosives.

Bullet time troops? Saiyans are excellent bullet-time soldiers. If you can get even one human-friendly Saiyan on the battlefield, especially if he can go Oozaru, your question then is, what Pred of any sort, anywhere, will survive? I don't even know if elementals would hold the line against a Saiyan. Problem is, Saiyans kill humans. And everything else, too. But at least they don't eat them. Not ever. (I'd rather be killed in a fight with a Saiyan than in a fight with Crisis.)

BTW I've done a re-study of the entire bestiary and I notice that there are no defenses against Psykers. Sure, there's a defense against magic, but nothing I can see against Psykers. Teekers and telepaths. A diamond naga can reflect magic, but a teeker can just make her brain go pop. Good telepaths can distract and hold down an army of preds while railgunners pick them off at a distance.

I'd be interested in wondering if psykers can handle elementals.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:54 am

Already suggested Psykers. The problem is they're not limited to either side, and each is just brutal to deal with. Any Psyker just needs to have enough precision and power to split a lone RBC at a specific area to kill someone. While the precision would require training, the power necessary would be very small.

Saiyans aren't that good for the reasons you suggested. Personally, I prefer troops that are not reliant on such powers anyways, as I want my troops to have their strength through merit instead of "I was born strong so I shall kill you GRR!"
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:37 pm

Malahite wrote:
Already suggested Psykers. The problem is they're not limited to either side, and each is just brutal to deal with. Any Psyker just needs to have enough precision and power to split a lone RBC at a specific area to kill someone. While the precision would require training, the power necessary would be very small.

Saiyans aren't that good for the reasons you suggested. Personally, I prefer troops that are not reliant on such powers anyways, as I want my troops to have their strength through merit instead of "I was born strong so I shall kill you GRR!"
Well said about the Psykers.

But Saiyans? They're fast like lightning and strong enough to throw meteors. They get stronger after every battle. Their powers are born to them and they don't need machines, potions or anything to unleash it. You can't stop a Saiyan by using anti-magic, you can't stop them by blocking all psi powers: once they close in to do hand to hand combat, the average Saiyan warrior could rip a Swamp Dryad out of its roots and use it as a baseball bat to swat Mermaids into orbit - without going to Oozaru form. That's no hyperbole, Saiyans would deliver the beat down on any corporeal unit and quite a few non-corps, too, if their "Ki" energy is available, which is also a power they're born with.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:54 pm

And that is why I don't like Dragonball Z.

Not to be mean or to offend, but it's just WAY too much godmodding, even in their own world. We really don't need some guy with ten thousand muscles and no shirt going around and blowing up galaxies.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:45 pm

Pendragon wrote:
And that is why I don't like Dragonball Z.

Not to be mean or to offend, but it's just WAY too much godmodding, even in their own world. We really don't need some guy with ten thousand muscles and no shirt going around and blowing up galaxies.
Far from being offensive - you actually have one heck of a good point there.

Me, I like to talk about Saiyans a lot because I like to see a good fight. Vegeta in Oozaru form vs Nemyra, in the open air, now that's the fight of the century. That one would take many breathtaking jaw dropping popcorn scarfing days to resolve.

Diverse groups of Predators combining forces and using each other to cover one another's weaknesses (like archers and swordsmen working together), is a dream fight in and of itself. But really, you're right, to throw an army of Saiyans against that group? It's not a fight then. It's not exciting.

Now I like to see the Preds get their butts kicked but only after a spectacular fight where nobody knows who's going to win until the end and the preds take a lot of people with them and surviving Preds and humans all have to back off and regroup and then aw crap the other side has reinforced and now they gotta start all over again.

I do like the idea that the biggest Pred has as much to fear from any random walking meal as vice-versa: the Crimson Legions don't feel safe in their territory, and Negav City is always getting Godzilla'd. Someone whacks Crisis and her kid eats them right back (probably taking up the name "Crisis" just to make people think Crisis is immortal?). Hey, that's actually cool. What if every major Pred-with-a-name gets killed and they have a kid who avenges them and takes up their name? It never ends, it seems like they never die.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:55 am

Problem is, I still see Saiyans as a "Brutally onsided opponnent" against even groups of Predator's. Remember that early on, people WEAKER than Raditz were quite capable of BLOWING UP THE MOON with their power.

And here's a thing that I just thought up today: Needle + Air = Dead human. Needle + Air = Dead Predator too?
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:51 pm

Malahite wrote:
Problem is, I still see Saiyans as a "Brutally onsided opponnent" against even groups of Predator's. Remember that early on, people WEAKER than Raditz were quite capable of BLOWING UP THE MOON with their power.
You mean Master Roshi from the pre-Z era? Oh yeah. Your point is solid, Saiyans are way too much for Felarya. Or almost any world.

Malahite wrote:
And here's a thing that I just thought up today: Needle + Air = Dead human. Needle + Air = Dead Predator too?
Air in the bloodstream? Sounds logical. Kensha beast poison in high concentration could also do it.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:00 am

Oh my, I almost forgot.

Protoss Dragoons vs the Crimson Legion, who wins?

Man, what a fight that would be.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:19 pm

New thought: Precision Shrink spells. Target a specific organ, kill any species. "Oh look, your heart can't pump enough blood.", "Look, your lungs shrunk to the size of a walnut. What's that? I can't hear you over your useless gasping.", etc.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:01 pm

Malahite wrote:
New thought: Precision Shrink spells. Target a specific organ, kill any species. "Oh look, your heart can't pump enough blood.", "Look, your lungs shrunk to the size of a walnut. What's that? I can't hear you over your useless gasping.", etc.
Oh excellent idea! That, and the other side of the sword as well:

Fairy shrink spells vs Bolo tanks = lots of iron in her diet?
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:59 am

Good Anti-Predator Tactic (Yet another!): Golems. Specifically, the more magically resistant ones. Worse case scenario (Golem's lose), the Pred's don't gain anything due to the fact that raw Iron and Clay and such tend not to make for good diets.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:19 pm

Malahite wrote:
Good Anti-Predator Tactic (Yet another!): Golems. Specifically, the more magically resistant ones. Worse case scenario (Golem's lose), the Pred's don't gain anything due to the fact that raw Iron and Clay and such tend not to make for good diets.
Owee. Are you talking human sized golems or a medium sized (40 footer) or a giant (100 footer)?

Human sized iron golems could swarm a giant Pred. See: Bloodclaw rampage. Medium sized (40/50ft) iron golems could punch it out with any Giant Naga and most fairies and great elves. A Giant (100ft+) iron golem might be a downright extreme threat, an almost God mod. That's for battling abysmal Tonorions and negative hydras.

Golems are way too cool in this environment...
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:27 pm

Raveolution wrote:

Owee. Are you talking human sized golems or a medium sized (40 footer) or a giant (100 footer)?
Size wise, I was going to say something like 10-20ft tall on average (Due to material issues), along with the fact that removing a leg from one would effectively cripple it still (So if it was greater than 20ft, odds are it'd be a very durable material).

Raveolution wrote:
Human sized iron golems could swarm a giant Pred. See: Bloodclaw rampage.
Feth, dropping a large number on Predators would be a decent solution, considering how much they tend to weigh. Swarming would be very effective though, yes. Better yet if you could form some sort of weapon's system on them (Be it simple "Make rending things apart by hand easier" techno/magobabble, or "Railgun built into body" firearms).

Raveolution wrote:
Medium sized (40/50ft) iron golems could punch it out with any Giant Naga and most fairies and great elves.
I wouldn't quite say "Punch it out", but they would be more effective individually than a smaller one. A 40ft golem is roughly half the height of a Naga, and probably much more densely packed. Imagine, if you will, a big lump of steel or clay roughly 3ft tall and at least a foot on the width and length scale. Pred's lifting the larger Golems would be like us lifting one of those: Very unlikely.

wrote:
A Giant (100ft+) iron golem might be a downright extreme threat, an almost God mod. That's for battling abysmal Tonorions and negative hydras.
Problem would still remain as for leg durability, though. Perhaps implimenting additional legs to the form, or developing something to circumvent the whole leg issue (Though that will likely mean lesser magic resistance) would be best for these types of Golems.

wrote:
Golems are way too cool in this environment...
Agreed, and the immunity to poisons, illusions, etc is a big help.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:54 pm

Malahite wrote:
Size wise, I was going to say something like 10-20ft tall on average (Due to material issues), along with the fact that removing a leg from one would effectively cripple it still (So if it was greater than 20ft, odds are it'd be a very durable material).
Yup, DEFINITELY impose materials limits on these things. A bloodclaw rampage of even 10-20 footers would massively disrupt the food chain for the surviving giant Preds. It's a game-ender, IMHO. A small army of dozens or a hundred or so, with limited runtime (fuel?), due to resource limitations, is a good thing.

Malahite wrote:
Feth, dropping a large number on Predators would be a decent solution, considering how much they tend to weigh. Swarming would be very effective though, yes. Better yet if you could form some sort of weapon's system on them (Be it simple "Make rending things apart by hand easier" techno/magobabble, or "Railgun built into body" firearms).
Simply infuse greater strength into them during construction. Railguns are awesome. It also makes it possible to be rendered useless by storm sprites or other electrically inclined Preds (Gypsas?). Also try Gypsa poison darts.

Malahite wrote:
I wouldn't quite say "Punch it out", but they would be more effective individually than a smaller one.
A hit from a normal strength 40 foot block of iron is absolutely positively no joke. Ever see a nickel-iron meteor fragment about 6x5x3 feet so? I hear that weighs about 10,000 lbs. A solid iron Golem 40 feet tall probably weighs 200,000 pounds. Two hundred thousand, minimum. For that matter, a solid iron golem standing 10-20 feet must weigh about 25K-30K lbs.

So if a 40 ft stone golem can throw a punch as fast as a human, that's force = mass x acceleration. The mass is some super gigantor fraction of 200,000lbs. Times acceleration. I'll leave the reader to do some comparisons to being hit by, say, (human punch acceleration rate) x 25,000lbs of iron fist.

Heh, disguise a 6 footer as a human and drop it in harpy territory. Surprise!

One disadvantage is that a Pred could hear even an iron 10 footer coming from miles away...

Malahite wrote:
A 40ft golem is roughly half the height of a Naga, and probably much more densely packed.
Half the height, yeah, but unless the naga is standing on its tail, he's level or almost level with his/her head. Not good for the Naga at all. Not good even for a Giant Faery laying down on the job. Of course, again, you could hear this sucka coming from several clicks away, too.

What is a Crimson Maiden's odds of melting an Iron or Clay Golem anyway?

Malahite wrote:
Imagine, if you will, a big lump of steel or clay roughly 3ft tall and at least a foot on the width and length scale. Pred's lifting the larger Golems would be like us lifting one of those: Very unlikely.
Indeed. Considering their first encounter with the consequences of a Golem's mass x acceleration, a Pred might not even let one get close.

I'm not sure how much weight is behind a clay golem.

Malahite wrote:
Problem would still remain as for leg durability, though. Perhaps implimenting additional legs to the form, or developing something to circumvent the whole leg issue (Though that will likely mean lesser magic resistance) would be best for these types of Golems.
Indeed, a golem would have less difficulty moving with four legs. Give it a soft underbelly and a turtle-like shell for faster mobility (and, for preventing god-modding, underbelly weaknesses). And for crying out loud, give it some stealth. An iron golem couldn't sneak up on anyone... I don't know about clay golems, but iron ones are better off being teleported right on top of a giant Pred. Just sit on the sucker and snap goes the spine.

A properly deployed iron golem would be difficult for any corporeal pred to beat if it's in his/her face.

Who on Felarya could invent one?

Malahite wrote:
Agreed, and the immunity to poisons, illusions, etc is a big help.
Yup. And lining it with Tonorion armor is the easiest way to make it magic proof if there are magical weaknesses in its construction. The way to GET Tonorion armor is to send a larger, simpler golem into their lair to bring them down and haul the armor out.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:38 am

Ok here's the stuff behind my theory of the super-heavy iron golem. I think I GROSSLY underestimated this issue.

http://sped2work.tripod.com/meteroite.html

"a nickel iron meteor 100 feet in diameter and weighing 60,000 tons"

60,000 tons = 120 MILLION pounds. Shocked Shocked Shocked

This is assuming an iron golem is solid pure iron. At 100 feet he's probably 30 million pounds (not being shaped like a full, giant ball-like meteorite). At 40 feet he's probably 10 million pounds. At 10 feet we may be looking at 1-5 million pounds. In any case we're looking at an absolute monster who's got "Curb Stomper" written on his undies.

A 10-20 footer is the max you can have in Felarya - larger than that and you've got a Titan reloaded. A 10 footer would walk right through, or walk all over, a swamp Dryad. A 20 footer would literally shake a Guardian out of his/her sleep by walking around. If you must deploy one, have your best "I did not make that thing" speech on hand... just in case.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:13 pm

April 30, 2008:

I just had an idea. An awful idea... a wonderful, AWFUL idea! Two, no less! Or maybe three.

What if some brave soul were to jump up and get into a Giant Predator's ear? I call what happens next the "Beowulf, Reloaded" tactic, or the "Felaryan Earwig" maneuver. Or, "Didn't they do that in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan"?


And does anyone have a freshly dead giant predator around? Preferably a giant naga? I've got a wonderful experiment that has to do with obtaining their stomach lining. You see, it can contain acid, right? Well, why not synthesize an acid proof armor coating for that odd titanium exoskeleton that might get swallowed? You'd have all day long to wrestle around for your blade, cannon, etc. and cut/shoot your way out. Or just sit there until the giant Pred gets sick.

And while you're at it, why not synthesize the stomach acids, too? So while the Pred is thinking "hey, that last titanium exoskeleton didn't digest, why not just extract the tasty human filling?" the exoskeleton wearer is thinking "Where on their face should I spray these synthetic stomach juices?" In fact, if you're a wandering fool in the forest, this little defense could ruin quite a few giant pred's day if deployed up close in their eyes. (Followed up with the "Felaryan Earwig" maneuver, it could make for a lot of fun.)



Disclaimer: this post - and this thread - are only about survival tactics for humans, not a hatefest. A reasonable human stuck in Felarya might consider these things as a way to become one of the 2% of travelers who avoid getting eaten...
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Thu May 01, 2008 2:45 am

Honnestly could you not just have put that on the "best tactical offense thread", rather than creating a new ?
It starts to make a lot of such threads talking on the same subject ...
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Thu May 01, 2008 6:23 am

Karbo wrote:
Honnestly could you not just have put that on the "best tactical offense thread", rather than creating a new ?
It starts to make a lot of such threads talking on the same subject ...
No problemo, how do you combine them?
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Thu May 01, 2008 12:18 pm

Evrything: If your lucky enough to have a Naga for a friend and their near by jump into their mouth, nothing will mess with you there.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Tue May 06, 2008 11:47 pm

How does a "belly warp" trap work?

If you typically step in it, why not send a pair of magically or psionically animated boots ahead of you in canopy fairy territory to trip the trap... boots packing a high explosive payload?

BTW a small amount of hydrochloric acid and aluminum, mixed, will create a seriously energetic reaction. An aluminum-derivative metal could be used to set off an earthshaking kaboom in a pred's stomach - perhaps large enough to be lethal?
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun May 18, 2008 4:25 pm

How does one find and breed opal mingos? These things are absolutely invaluable to any traveler going through fairy territory or the Crimson Woods.
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