What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...

Sheesh. I hadn't realized that grenades were such a hornet's nest.

Oldman40k2003 wrote:: In my opinion, Felarya is supposed to be a place of great danger to humans.

And here I thought it was supposed to be a place of great danger, regardless of who/what you are. Wink

@ Oldman

Yep, really good post there. Another thing that people seem to neglect in their "what if?" weapon ideas is the logistics of it. Logistics and common sense are the reasons nukes would never even be considered there...not some kind of arbitrary patch that coulde be enacted (which I don't think should be done, personally).

The fact is, when you talk about "killing a predator" you need to think about what you're dealing with. You're talking about a creature as large, or larger than most whales, dinosaurs or other such massive creatures...but is also sentient, cunning, used to living in a very harsh, unforgiving world...and possibly has access to various types of magic, which at their scale, could be potentially devastating to human-sized creatures.

They aren't anything to take lightly. For this reason, pretty much any kind of weapon capable of reliably killing one would need to be military-grade, or possibly some specially made weapon for the occaision. This, by itself, severely limits their use. The only people that will have them are military units...which, in all likelyhood, are there as escorts for some kind of scientific or exploratory expedition. There aren't going to be a massive number of people with them. They won't be just "handing them out" to everyone they see...mainly because most people in Felarya, other than in an established city like Negav, don't use any real form of currency. True, some could use some form of rare material to barter...but really, no military unit is going to just hand out military-grade heavy weaponry to people less advanced than them.

There likely is some kind of heavy-weapons market in Negav, and a nice profit to be made in scavenging weapons left behind from predator attacks...but honestly, it isn't like they're going to be pulling in truck-loads of them, and military-grade weapons would be exceedingly rare and expensive.

The fact is, weapons that can kill preds reliably are only going to be used in large numbers by a force trying to make an attempt to invade...and if that's the case, then the guardians are likely going to give them a subtle hint that they should rethink things =P

Also, you have to think about why people would come to Felarya. They aren't going to allocate some massive military presecense. Felarya is an oddity, and mainly an area of scientific intrest. Most military presence would be limited to escorts for scientific expeditions. If losses get too high, the program will just be cut, and they won't come back. If you think a group exploring Felarya (an official governmetn or scientific expedition anyway) will be like "Those poor people! Let's hand out our ultra high-tech weapons for free!" then you're mistaken.

Oldman40k2003 wrote:: No idea, but I would assume that it extends at far as sharp objects are able to make it before they are digested/dulled by acid. Potentially this could mean the entirety of the digestive tract is extra tough.

They aren't going to be dulled fast enough. If the pictures involving people being in a Naga's stomach and soaked are any indicator, it's not instantaneous. That's about how fast the acid's going to need to work to dull the metal blades that fast. Considering people who fall in the stomach have time to protest (if a very short one) before the screams of pain start kicking up, it'd have to be a very brittle / low-quality metal to melt faster than the flesh is acid-burned.

Oldman40k2003 wrote:: Depends on exactly how powerful the agent is.

I would say that in itself isn't even a sure answer. Giant Predators seem to have been given epic-character resistances to poisons. Why do I say that? Plants that can kill people in single scratches almost instantaneously via poison? Giant Nagas have been seen wrestling with them (imagine how many of said spines are deployed there) and coming away from the ordeal not even sick. Even assuming the Giant Predator is of a variety that's 27,000 times the volume of a human, that's an extremely powerful poison resistance.

Oldman40k2003 wrote:: For nagas, since they have more mass (their tails), the LD50 doses would be considerably larger, probably four or five times larger. Also, this assumes that they have human like biochemistry and no proteins or enzymes that suspiciously and conveniently (*cough*Deus Ex Machina*cough*) allow them to quickly metabolize these agents.

Again, it's highly likely some sort of super poison resistances were given to Giant Predators. All I can assume is that the reason Giant Predators are often seen as fuck-all durable, is not due to their own natural make-up. Instead, the healing nature of Felarya works based off surface area. If the amount of magic hitting a man-sized target could, for instance, heal someone being run through with a sword comparable to Guts' (of Berserk fame) pre-Eclipse, then it'd make sense that on something several hundred (if not thousand) times the surface area would heal the damage.

Felarya's Giant Predators aren't immune to rockets and tank shells in actuality - they're actually horribly weak against them. It's just that Felarya's healing nature allows it to heal faster than a Troll who just got a potion from an Alchemy-Abusing Nerevarine.

Malahite wrote:

Oldman40k2003 wrote:: Depends on exactly how powerful the agent is.

I would say that in itself isn't even a sure answer. Giant Predators seem to have been given epic-character resistances to poisons. Why do I say that? Plants that can kill people in single scratches almost instantaneously via poison? Giant Nagas have been seen wrestling with them (imagine how many of said spines are deployed there) and coming away from the ordeal not even sick. Even assuming the Giant Predator is of a variety that's 27,000 times the volume of a human, that's an extremely powerful poison resistance.

Except the slug-girls which are naturally immune to poison few predators shows a similar immunity. About poisons, your body can develop an strong resistance or immunity if you receive many non-lethal doses over a long period. In the case of the naga you quote as example if she has been sting many time by the spines of the plant during her youth she will develop a natural immunity.

Malahite wrote:: Felarya's Giant Predators aren't immune to rockets and tank shells in actuality - they're actually horribly weak against them. It's just that Felarya's healing nature allows it to heal faster than a Troll who just got a potion from an Alchemy-Abusing Nerevarine.

Unless if the wound are not lethal the soil will help them to recover but if the wound is lethal they will die

Being immune to natural poisons is one thing; as their pressence in nature allows certain speices develop an immunity. The same cannot be said about chemical agents developed for warfare; mainly because of lack of exposure and mode of action. Most natural poisons are nitrogen based (alkaloids) while all nerve agents are phosphorus based; these kind of chemicals aren't found in nature. Like it or not agents such as Cyclosarin and VX are extremly dangerous to everything with a nerve system; however as Oldman40K has stated and as I know preparing and 'weaponising' these agents isn't easy unless you have a large chemical/engineering industrial base.

Before this discussion goes any further ask yourself do we really want to expose Felarya to the weapons of mass destruction that we have created? A lot of people here seem to underestimate humanity's capacity for destruction, yes pedators may be giant and realitivily immune from the we weapons which can kill us individually, but we are a race capable of wiping out over 60% of our total population and infrastructure in under a day.

actually we can obliterate our entire planet in about a day Razz

but the guardians are there to prevent that from happening anyway. if someone on felarya manages to build a nuke, the guardians would most likely intervene due to the threat level such a weapon resembles.

when one receives a mortal wound on felarya, it has to drain their life faster than the soil heals it, other wise they wont die, or will just die very slowly (unless they get a healing agent of some sort).

Archmage_Bael wrote:: actually we can obliterate our entire planet in about a day

but the guardians are there to prevent that from happening anyway. if someone on felarya manages to build a nuke, the guardians would most likely intervene due to the threat level such a weapon resembles.

when one receives a mortal wound on felarya, it has to drain their life faster than the soil heals it, other wise they wont die, or will just die very slowly (unless they get a healing agent of some sort).

No one will bring those kinds of weapons TO Felarya. There's no reason to. The ONLY people its of intrest to (assuming a modern earth-like society), are people seeking treasure, or scientists. It has no military value, and the only reason military would be there at all would be to protect the scientists and other civillians. NO ONE is going to bring nukes and nerve gas for that. The ones prepared beforehand may bring anti-armor rifles or man-portable rockets...but thats about it. WMD's are completely impractical for this kind of situation, not to mention expensive.

...*facepam* no one in Felarya CAN build a nuke. Making weapons-grade nuclear weapons is a lengthy, complex process that requires time, training and specialized facilities. Synthesizing chemical agents and poisons in large enough quantities to use as a pred defense would require a similar setup. You can't just "make them" it isn't like tying a sharp rock to a stick and making a spear.

Just because a weapon COULD be used, doesn't mean that it will. Expense, logistics, the situation and practicality determine a weapon's use.

The guardians arent needed (and shouldnt be) as a catch-all for every possible threat. They exist to keep massive world-changing forces in check. Most of these other things...nukes, WMD's, etc...just wouldn't be used. No logical government is going to be like "Hey....lets send in a nuclear weapon to defend our outpost" now "Let's arm the military escort with anti-armor weaponry"...that's more reasonable, and would be much more effective.

I honestly don't get the fascination with nukes and WMD's lately. Its like using the Incredible Hulk to beat up the bully that's stealing your lunch money. Preds are powerful...sure, but not powerful enough to warrent WMD's as a defense. Hell...some simple satchel charges, or some anti-tank mines (if you're defending a stationary location) would be more than painful enough (or potentially lethal) to be an effective deterrent. Deterrence really is the best option. If you kill a pred, then what? You'll have a 100-ton rotting corpse right near you.

Oldman40k2003 wrote:

Raveolution wrote:: A sufficiently advanced society - 200 years in advance of modern day Earth at the furthest - could be passing out these weapons and ammo like candy.

I don't think they would be passing them out like candy. It would be the rough equivalent of giving yield limited nuclear weapons to the European powers of say 1800. Sure, they're yield limited so the destruction they can directly cause is also limited, but science does exist in 1800, so there is a very real danger of one or more of the yield limited bombs being studied closely, causing rapid advancement of science, and allowing for the eventual construction of non-yield limited nuclear weapons.

So while an advanced society surely could hand them out like candy, it would be pretty reckless for them to do so.

I don't think it would be so reckless because seriously do you think the model of weapons they will pass is the most advanced they possess. To many advanced civilizations heir main objectives is to colonize the place to exploit their resources. The predators are an obstruction of their main project, so their immediate objective is to find a way to neutralize the predators at the first time and the potential concurrent. So when they will give you the weapons they are conscious they need to monitor and keep the situation under control due to the potential risk of this technology. If they have 200 years of advanced on us it's obvious what we know on their technology it's what they let us know about them. To monitor us they have just to use or late development against us, they have just to use a more advanced model of nanites on us which are less easily detectable than the model they give us. So during we will be busy to kill predator they will collect many data on us and when we will resolve the threat of the predators they will have just to come with their army and takes the place for themselves. And even if you want to oppose to them, they will show you the 200 years of difference between our civilizations and them Razz

Since the beginning you have been manipulated. We should not forget to win against the predators is an immediate issue but not in long term during we should think to what we will do after. The Delurans, the Miratans, the Vishmintal, the magiocrates or many political factions in Felarya have as main objectives to spread their influence over Felarya. Even if they are busy with the predators it doesn't mean they won't fight each other in the future. Political issues play an important role.

Moderator Posts : 661 Join date : 2007-12-08

gwadahunter2222 wrote:: And even if you want to oppose to them, they will show you the 200 years of difference between our civilizations and them

An advanced civilization would not have that mindset for a very good reason. When talking about societies that understand the concept of "science", 200 years is not that great of a distance. Back when the European powers were "colonizing" the world, they fought many battles against primitive societies, and as you would expect guns beat bows badly, especially when combined with tactics and strategy. The natives sometimes captured guns, but they did not have the concept of "science" yet, so they had no real means with which to advance their own weaponry. This is a very stark contrast to what happens when you use advanced weaponry against a society that does have the concept of "science". Some examples...

The Soviet Union came into possession of three B-29 Superfortress bombers that had been forced to land in the Soviet Union after attacking Japan in 1944. The B-29 was a very advanced bomber for its time, considerably superior to what the Soviets had. They took those bombers and reversed engineered them, being able to produce identical replicas (the Tupolev Tu-4) by 1947.

Another example was the atomic bomb. While the Soviet Union did benefit greatly from its spies in the American program, they still had to do a great deal of research and design on their own, and they were able to detonate their own atomic bomb only four years after the Americans did. The development of the hydrogen bomb is even more telling, as there was no spying involved and the idea was independently invented; the U.S. tested their first hydrogen device in 1952, and the Soviets tested theirs in 1955.

The history of rocketry shows a different example; the Germans developed the V2 rocket, and both the American and the Soviets copied those designs for their early rockets. The Soviets advanced quite rapidly, and stunned the world by achieving a great many firsts (Sputnik 1, Yuri Gagarin). The U.S. devoted a lot of resources (still just a small fraction of the yearly budget though) into rocketry after realizing just how far behind they were, and in 1969 (just 8(!) years after Yuri Gagarin orbited the Earth), the U.S. launched Apollo 11 using the Saturn V rocket (a very advanced rocket) and landed men on the moon.

A many year head start is also considerably less important if the society that is 200 years behind has (preferably working) examples of advanced technology. A hundred years ago the Wright brothers were experimenting with powered flight; if you gave them a Cutlass 172RG they would not fully understand how it worked, but would probably immediately deduce what it was designed to do. From that basis they would begin to work backwards, breaking the plane down into its different components, analyzing them and applying this knowledge to their own creations. In a very short while (probably a decade or two, especially if they had large financial resources, AKA governmental backing) they would be able to produce roughly equivalent planes... plus they would have advanced the field of science in dozens of ways; metallurgy, composites, radio, the invention of silicon based electronics...

Or, to take a true 200 year example: in 1810, steamboats were the common technology. If you were to give the scientists of 1810 a modern powerboat (like say the 2010 model of the Chaparral 226 SSi) they could almost immediately deduce it's purpose, even if they couldn't build it themselves. The propulsion system would be strange to them, but they would quickly realize what a screw propeller is, and under what conditions it is better than paddle-wheels. The boat engine would blow their minds, but they would quickly understand it, as they already have knowledge of pistons and the like from their steam engines. Further analysis of the metals in the engine would reveal to them new forms of heat treating. The hull would be very interesting to them, but upon burning samples to determine their composition they would discover that the hull has glass fibers in it, and is otherwise composed of something that contains lots of hydrogen and carbon (plastic). Applying various acids to samples of the hull would allow them to determine the rough chemical structure of the plastics, further testing would allow them to figure out the plastic's rough molecular size. With that and its composition they could then attempt to model it, and then attempt to synthesize it, which in and of itself would revolutionize their world. Reverse engineering the computer components would be the most difficult (but most rewarding) thing to do; however once they dissolved a chip or two in acid and discovered that it was mostly silicon with a small percentage of impurities they would certainly try to create a chunk of silicon that had just that small percentage of impurities, and then during testing of that chunk they would discover that it's a transistor (not the word they would use for it). From that they would try chaining several transistors together, and thus would be born electronic computation (and probably boolean logic and digital computation, once they realized that their existing systems of logic are incomplete.)

They would also be able to conclude many things simply from the makeup of the boat; from the use of aluminum they would be able to conclude that there is a cheap way to refine it; from the extensive use of plastics they could conclude that there must be a simple and cheap way to make them; from the intricacies of the electronic components they would be able to conclude that we have a lot of experience with them, and that these components can do a lot of things; etc.

The TL; DR version of this post (also its concluding paragraph) is that giving advanced technology to lesser advanced societies that have the concept of "science" is a very dangerous thing to do, because they will take those things apart, analyze them, and rapidly advance their society. It won't take them nearly as long to advance if they have a working example, because they will know for a fact that the advancement they are trying to accomplish is possible, as shown by the working example. So an advanced society giving advanced technology to a less advanced society does so at their own risk; while Felarya is probably too dangerous and undeveloped for much research to be done, if any of the people you give the tech to (or anyone they give the tech to) take it back home to a safer and more developed home planet it is almost certain that the tech will be reverse engineered.

Notes:
1. I have put "science" in quotation marks because the real requirement isn't that they have exactly our scientific method, but merely something that includes the feedback loop in the scientific method; its the feedback loop that's the important part.

2. A 200 year gap doesn't mean that the advanced society is invincible; 200+ year old muskets can still kill you even if you are wearing modern armor, if the bullet hits you in the head; arrows will penetrate some modern body armors even though they are thousands of years old. A deep enough pit trap can trap even a modern tank, using nothing more than dirt and wood. Modern technology also typically requires a rather extensive supply line, and the concept of attacking the enemies supply lines is ancient.

3. The reason there are export restrictions on many things (at least in the U.S.) is exactly to prevent reverse engineering.

Oldman40k2003 wrote:

Raveolution wrote:: Nano rifles. Nanites can't cause a grey goo unless seriously designed to do so (this was explained ironically by the very guy who proposed the threat of a gray goo) but a sufficiently powered swarm of nanites could destroy a large object before running out of power and expiring on their own.

The ability of nanites to cause a grey goo incident depend on two things: how they replicate, and how resistant they are to "mutations". If every single nanite is capable of building new nanites from scratch, the possibility of a grey goo incident occurring is higher than if the nanites can only be created in special factory modules... though if the nanites can build the factory modules (which you would want them to be able to do in order to be able to produce nanites in volume), there is still some risk. How resistant a nanite is to mutation is the other important factor; self checks and "deviancy detection and removal" routines can be built into the nanites, but that merely lowers the risk, not eliminate it... and it's also a trade off, as those self-checks take up time, energy, and space, making heavily protected nanites less efficient than less protected ones.

Well, let us just say that 200 years from now, nanorifles might be the new .44 magnum - but nanites that replicate would be very hard to get a hold of, while nanite "cell ammo" that incapacitates or even utterly destroys flesh and bone for several seconds would be less difficult or even quite common.

Quote :

Raveolution wrote:: A sufficiently advanced society - 200 years in advance of modern day Earth at the furthest - could be passing out these weapons and ammo like candy.

I don't think they would be passing them out like candy. It would be the rough equivalent of giving yield limited nuclear weapons to the European powers of say 1800.

It would be more like native Americans getting a hold of guns.

Basically, these nanite guns that do limited damage would be quite common in 200 years; consider that in just 50 years we went from the Wright Brothers to jet fighters and nuclear weapons. Moore's Law is a bitch over the course of 200 years. We could even be into subatomic/picotech by then, making nano-rifles as crude as ballistas. We might even have nano-defense shields to oppose it. It all depends on the ease of producing nano-guns in 200 years, which should be quite easy by then. It would be all over the black market, and what gets on the black market can go anywhere.

Quote :: Sure, they're yield limited so the destruction they can directly cause is also limited, but science does exist in 1800, so there is a very real danger of one or more of the yield limited bombs being studied closely, causing rapid advancement of science, and allowing for the eventual construction of non-yield limited nuclear weapons.

Yes, the danger is always there.

Quote :: So while an advanced society surely could hand them out like candy, it would be pretty reckless for them to do so.

A university student could figure out how to build a nuclear reactor. I would direct you to a news story of a kid who built a breeder reactor in his back yard. Shocked

Now imagine a kid like this who wants to build a nano rifle and put it on the black market in some "Anarchist's Cookbook". Now also throw in the current (as of March 2010) existence of 3d Printers/RepRep Machines and you have quite a recipe for black market mass production of nano-rifles (and countless other things, too). Basically, there will be a will, and a way for these things to be produced.

edited to add: and in Felarya, the Government can not so easily control what you do. Most of Felarya is lawless jungle. Someone who enters there with a 23rd century RepRap device and a nanorifle and blueprints to make more, will be unregulated. Anyone who can bargain with them to get a nanorifle will get one. Then someone else will bargain for a RepRap device (since RepRaps can in fact reproduce each other), and then it's really on.

Now mix this up in Felarya, where humans are going to be ragingly pissed off at the constant threat of being eaten, and a desire to stay in Felarya for the immortality, and you have plenty of will for this to happen.

Quote :

Raveolution wrote:: ...such a device would produce absolutely no kick.

Why would it produce no kick? If it is throwing the nanites at the target at any speed it will almost certainly produce noticeable kick... conservation of momentum and all that.

Okay, it would produce about as much kick as blowing ashes into the air. Nanites don't need to be fired like a bullet; they just need to know their target and float in its direction relatively quickly. No Pred is likely to even see them, and if they do, they won't recognize a mere puff of smoke.

Quote :

Raveolution wrote:: Additional modules could be added such as species identifiers which profile targets by DNA (allowing you to kill a kensha beast without killing the nekos it's chasing). An automated turret with DNA profiling systems would almost be as effective as the Isolon Eye, with the exception of being ineffective against non-corporeal preds. It would literally be able to whitelist non-preds like Rin...

Yeah, while it would have to actually have nanites on the target, it certainly could be very selective about what it actually damages. Nanotechnology is powerful, dangerous stuff.

Unfortunately the forward march of technology makes it a certainty. I would not be surprised if nano-rifles do not exist right now. You do realize that the Pentium Chip existed in the military ages before it came to civilian hands... if they had said back when the Pentium chip first came around that it could do what we know it does, we'd say that was a conspiracy theory or that Aliens made it.

Quote :

Raveolution wrote:: Of course, one can imagine that the rules would somehow be changed in short order to make the existence of such a weapon impossible...

You have a rather... cynical attitude, and I'm not sure you quite understand what Felarya is supposed to be. In my opinion, Felarya is supposed to be a place of great danger to humans. Because this is a primary goal, "patching" the world to prevent "exploits" is not a bad thing... in fact it is a good thing.

To quote Timing2, I thought it was supposed to be dangerous to everyone. Non-corporeal preds can beat nano-rifles; you can get caught without ammo. Storm sprites can mess up your weapon. Gyspas can cause electricity chaos, for that matter. One wouldn't be killing off the vore fetish fun and games by making everyone dangerous to each other.

The problem is there are major, persistent misconceptions here about human beings and how they would react to Felarya. Did you ever read about the Tsavo Maneaters? This is a good idea on what would happen to Felaryan preds who attacked convoys: humans got tired of lions eating their workers on the railway, and caravan owners will get tired of their workers getting eaten and their goods lost. Proven human history there. Also, the whole point of animals warning each other not to eat human flesh in the Jungle Book was not because of teeth rotting, but because humans almost always retaliate - brutally. In fact, humans are one of few, if not the only truly relentless predator around. We're known for gathering in large numbers to fight off predators, and basically reacting like Agent Smith in that scene in the Matrix Reloaded: we just keep on coming until we win. This doesn't bode well for preds in Felarya... unless you "patch" the universe by denying a critical element of human nature. Suspension of disbelief gets totally squashed when you assert that humans live in a deadly forest like Felarya and don't even try to find safety in numbers or migrate - which makes te whole Verdoya story so refreshing, because it was realistic... and people still got eaten, which fulfills the vore fantasy.

In Felarya, humans act more like two-legged cows than sentients. But, again, I now understand where these misconceptions about humans are coming from: it's the vore fantasy thing.

Quote :: It's similar to why there are "shot clocks" in many sports. It's a perfectly rational strategy to get a lead on an opponent and then just hold on to the ball for the rest of the game, but this leads to very boring games. Because the goal of most sports is "be interesting and exciting", the rules are patched when someone finds a way to break them. As I mentioned, "shot clocks" were introduced in order to prevent people from just holding onto the ball forever, even though it's a perfectly rational strategy. This is not a bad thing, as the "patch" brings the games back towards what they are supposed to be: exciting.

To go on with that analogy, it's the giant preds who are always holding the ball. It's not interesting or exciting when every time a human runs into a naga, or a tiny runs into a Neko, you already know what's going to happen.

For preds, there is a single strategy that dominates everything else: be 20 times bigger.

I think, given previous discussions here, that you mean the balance should be in favor of giant preds and perpetually against humans. As such, my suggestion, the "patch" to end all "patches", would be that everything made of metals or complex metals magically rusts, like Deluran weapons, if the whole idea of Felarya is pure squirming prey vore fantasy. Take away all hope of technology, because with technology humans are seriously going to be a bigger threat to giant monsters than people here want them to be: because the biggest misconception of all is that humans won't rise up en masse against such a threat, when throughout history it's been proven we will do anything to get control of a predator... anything.

Grand Mecha Enthusiast Posts : 3229 Join date : 2007-12-09

Not to go off topic, but reading all this makes me imagine a picture of Nemyra eating a nuke, it blowing up harmlessly inside her stomach, and her pulling the old "burping smoke" gag, and then her saying "that's a spicy meat-a-ball."

Basically, I think we're taking this too seriously. Let's just assume there are stronger weapons against preds out there, but nobody is dumb enough to go out there and use them like a maniac.

Raveolution wrote:: The problem is there are major, persistent misconceptions here about human beings and how they would react to Felarya. Did you ever read about the Tsavo Maneaters? This is a good idea on what would happen to Felaryan preds who attacked convoys: humans got tired of lions eating their workers on the railway, and caravan owners will get tired of their workers getting eaten and their goods lost. Proven human history there.

After read the Tsavo Maneaters there is a link to Man-eater you will see in Tanzania between 1990 and 2005 there were at 563 villagers attacked by Lions a number far exceeding the more famed "Tsavo" incidents of a century earlier. The 600 Royal Bengal tiger in Sundarbans are well-known for the substantial number of people they kill, estimates range from 100-250 people per year. They are the only man-eating tigers left in the world, though they are not the only tigers who live in close proximity to humans. You should read to about Man-eating tiger and the famous hunter Jim Corbett

Raveolution wrote:: Also, the whole point of animals warning each other not to eat human flesh in the Jungle Book was not because of teeth rotting, but because humans almost always retaliate - brutally. In fact, humans are one of few, if not the only truly relentless predator around. We're known for gathering in large numbers to fight off predators, and basically reacting like Agent Smith in that scene in the Matrix Reloaded: we just keep on coming until we win. This doesn't bode well for preds in Felarya... unless you "patch" the universe by denying a critical element of human nature. Suspension of disbelief gets totally squashed when you assert that humans live in a deadly forest like Felarya and don't even try to find safety in numbers or migrate - which makes te whole Verdoya story so refreshing, because it was realistic... and people still got eaten, which fulfills the vore fantasy.

In Felarya, humans act more like two-legged cows than sentients. But, again, I now understand where these misconceptions about humans are coming from: it's the vore fantasy thing.

Just after quoting a historical fact you quote fictions Shocked

which have no link with the previous one I can only applaud.

@Pendragon: I agree with you,

Moderator Posts : 661 Join date : 2007-12-08

Raveolution wrote:: Moore's Law is a bitch over the course of 200 years. We could even be into subatomic/picotech by then, making nano-rifles as crude as ballistas.

A few pedantic qualifications here: Moore's law only applies to the number of transistors that you can place on a section of silicon for a certain price; it or rules like it don't necessarily hold for other technologies, though sometimes they do. Battery technology is one good example of where a "Moore-like" law does not hold; battery technology has been rather stagnant for decades, though if we're lucky that may change soon. Another pedantic qualification is that it is extremely unlikely that we could ever build technology that uses subatomic particles in the same way that a nano-machines use atoms. Subatomic particles are generally unstable and fly apart, except when they're carefully placed next to other subatomic particles in particular arrangements. The more dangerous forms of radioactivity are a direct result of some atomic nuclei (Uranium, for example) not being completely stable, having the tendency to fly apart.

But that is mostly me being pedantic.

Raveolution wrote:: Now also throw in the current (as of March 2010) existence of 3d Printers/RepRep Machines and you have quite a recipe for black market mass production of nano-rifles (and countless other things, too). Basically, there will be a will, and a way for these things to be produced.

In order for a replication machine to make a nano-rifle, it would have to be able to make features on the nano-scale, so that it could build the first nanite (which would then build all the other nanites). This is not a trivial thing, and self reproducing machines will not be able to work at the nano-scale level for the foreseeable future... though if you can get a replicator machine with lenses, silicon, and some acid, you ought to be able to make simple nanoscale features... Hmmm...

More importantly than that, however, is supplying the replicating machine with what it needs. It will need a power source of some form, and relatively pure/extremely pure resources with which to build from, depending on how much purifying it can do on it's own. Making a mine on Felarya is going to draw the local predators, as would making a power station. Not impossible obstacles to overcome, but not exactly easy either.

Raveolution wrote:: Okay, it would produce about as much kick as blowing ashes into the air. Nanites don't need to be fired like a bullet; they just need to know their target and float in its direction relatively quickly.

Nano-scaled things move really slowly, because they are so small. As feature sizes get smaller and smaller how a liquid/gas interacts with the objects changes. A large steel ball will sink quickly through the water. A steel BB will sink less quickly. A speck of steel dust will sink very slowly. A nano-sized speck of steel won't sink at all. A nanite trying to fly through the air would find it like trying to fly through water; possible, but slow.

Now, this slow speed is just fine if you are trying to cover an area to kill any preds that come through it, but if you're trying to hit a specific predator at a safe distance, you're going to need to launch the nanites with some force, probably inside of bullet or small rocket.

Raveolution wrote:: You do realize that the Pentium Chip existed in the military ages before it came to civilian hands...

Citation needed

Raveolution wrote:: The problem is there are major, persistent misconceptions here about human beings and how they would react to Felarya. ... Proven human history there. ... In fact, humans are one of few, if not the only truly relentless predator around.

Oh I am well aware of how vicious humans can be. However, having realistic human behavior prevents us from having Felarya as we know it.

Here is why:
Off-world humans with an active gate to Felarya would do one of two things; either they would say "Screw this place, I'm going home." and leave, not caring about any dumb-asses who came anyway, or they would find something they wanted in Felarya, and then expend the needed force to claim it. If they were of any threatening technological level they would begin by using squads equipped with anti-tank-gun working together with radios and UAV's to destroy any predators in the area, and they would be extremely successful at that. Dangerous plants would be dealt with by defoliating agents and flame-throwers. Smaller predators (including fairies) would fall prey (irony!) to small arms fire and light anti-aircraft guns. In very short order a beachhead would be cleared, fortifications put up, and more supplies brought in. The invaders would then proceed to clear section after section in a similar manner. Predators, although big, simply wouldn't stand a chance. Anti-tank guns are built to penetrate tank armor, equivalent to dozens of meters of watery flesh. Most predators don't have a society to speak of, no technological or industrial base either. They wouldn't even begin to be able to comprehend how to fight a technologically advanced army, and would die by the hundreds. (Historical precedent: in virtually any encounter between natives and westerners where the westerners used their military, the natives died by the thousands, while the westerners suffered very few casualties.)

At some point the destructiveness would annoy a guardian enough that the guardian would, with a casual thought, destroy all of the invaders. Faced with such overwhelming power, the invaders would probably retreat and never come back, though some might keep invading, trying new weapons in an attempt to kill the guardians. A few smarter societies would see what happens to others who expand too far and create small-ish military outposts on Felarya, but they certainly wouldn't send troops out on patrol.

Does a world pockmarked with unbeatable invading forces (and the craters left behind after they piss off a guardian), where the predators cannot prey on anything intelligent for fear of death sound anything at all like the Felarya we all know and love? But this is the unavoidable consequence of having portals to off-world societies and of having humans act like humans. (Well, a few societies would probably make allies among the local pred populations, either through force or through ~~people~~ food shipments, but a betrayal by either side would result in violence and the situation described above.)

How do you propose we fix this little problem?

Raveolution wrote:: Suspension of disbelief gets totally squashed...

...when you first see giant humanoids that somehow aren't effected by the square-cube law. The suspension of disbelief gets totally squashed when you first hear about flying creatures that can transform from anywhere between three inches to ninety feet in an instant. The suspension of disbelief gets totally squashed when you first hear about "magic", or giant trees, or any of the hundreds of fantastic things that exist in Felarya.

Felarya is a pretty unbelievable place; I wouldn't start criticizing it by mentioning the stupidity of its humans... people being morons is all too believable.

Raveolution wrote:: To go on with that analogy, it's the giant preds who are always holding the ball. It's not interesting or exciting when every time a human runs into a naga, or a tiny runs into a Neko, you already know what's going to happen. For preds, there is a single strategy that dominates everything else: be 20 times bigger.

To be fair, "what's going to happen" is what would realistically happen. A giant creature that didn't suffer from the square-cube law is simply superior to smaller things in virtually every way. A relatively good example of this is a human versus a kitten (that can only limp along at about two miles per hour, the proportional running speed of kitten sized human). Please don't tell me that you think the kitten has any chance at all? It's too slow to leave you behind, not agile enough to escape your grasp, not strong enough to hurt you, not heavy enough to prevent you from literally throwing it around, and not tough enough to prevent you from killing it.

I think Oldman covered the "realistic invasion" scenario fairly well.

...but I think it needs to be stated that any kind of realistic invasion is HIGHLY unlikely.

Felarya is just not a militarily important world. About the only people it would be of intrest to are scientists. There's no military advantage to invading it. Hell, the only important mineral is ascarlin, and that is only in certain areas. The biggest "invasion" you'd see is a mining operation somewhere. Besides ascarlin, it really is only interesting as a scientific anamoly. Creatures that exist at a scale that should not be possible...something that generates a kind of immortality...MAGIC (if they come from a non-magical world)...that is going to be what is of intrest.

You would likely have situations like the Deluran or Miritan bases. Relatively small, unobtrusive outposts that likely have a self-contained dimensional gate, and act as a hub for researching the world of Felarya. Would they have weapons that could kill preds? Oh, I imagine they will once they run into a couple....but they aren't going to be packing high-yield heavy destruction kinds of weapons because you know what? Scientists don't want to completely destroy what they are trying to study.

Honestly, the best defense for an outpost is some sentry turrets, and some kind of mine-field, or things that shock, stab, or cause general pain. Deterrence is often better than lethal force. If you kill a pred, then you have a 100-ton, soon to be rotting corpse to deal with. If you have an effective enough deterrence grid, then the preds will eventually get the idea and keep away from the stuff that keeps hurting them.

Just to address Rave's previous stuff about super-advanced civilizations handing stuff over for free. Dude...you seem to have some highly ideallized view of humans as some close-knit band of brothers that gives a shit about some other humans that are having a bad time. Even humans on EARTH don't care about people half a world, or even half a country away, that are having a bad time. You can't just lump all humans in Felarya into one single group anyway. You're talking about people from dozens of worlds, with a massive amount of different views and beliefs.

Not to mention the basic fact that no military gives away heavy weaponry and high-explosives to complete strangers they have no stake in. Much less a group of more primitive people. They aren't going to go "Those poor people! Let's butt into a fight that we have no stake in and help!!!"....they are more likely going to go "Those poor people! We better be careful so we don't end up the same way!"

The reaosn you'll never have any kind of human revolt in Felarya is simple. There isn't nearly enough organization, and there isn't a reason to do it. The only places that could mount an organized revolt are the population centers...and they have nothing to gain from doing so. Negav, The Jungle Bowl, Chiotia City...they're doing pretty good for themselves. Negav is a bustling interdimensional trade-hub, the Jungle Bowl lives in relative safety thanks to their guardian dryad, and Chiotia City over on Shillapo Island is an important port city that lives in near safety thanks to its natural defenses and diplomacy with local preds. None of them give a shit about tiny little villages off in the jungle that get raided, and none of them are going to go to war "in the name of humanity". They are going to say "sucks to be them, but at least we're safe"

Moderator Posts : 661 Join date : 2007-12-08

rcs619 wrote:: Scientists don't want to completely destroy what they are trying to study.

Oh really? Razz

rcs619 wrote:: ...and some kind of mine-field...

Hmmm, they'd have to be custom mines (because even the most powerful anti-tank mines are meant to destroy the tank's treads, not penetrate it's armor, and thus would not do much against a pred), but a minefield could be a really potent weapon. Mines never sleep, and some predators would simply be unable to sneak through them, having a contact area with the ground wider than the average spacing between mines. Evil laugh

rcs619 wrote:: If you kill a pred, then you have a 100-ton, ~~soon to be rotting corpse~~ pile of food to deal with.

There, fixed it for you. And don't say that it's not fair to eat them! Revenge is a dish best served with a side of irony. Evil laugh

Actually, unless you have a lot of spare manpower or access to heavy equipment, you will have to deal with a large rotting corpse. If we assume that each person can carry 50 lbs per trip, takes 30 minutes to travel from the corpse to the food storage area and back (IE the dead pred is at your doorstep), and that any food collected more than 8 hours after the pred's death is too contaminated to use, then you will need 276 people hauling constantly for the entire 8 hours, plus additional people to cut up the pred. Please note that 100 metric tons is likely on the low-side for human giant weight; nagas would be several times heavier.

In regards to people just giving stuff away, any group is going to be very cautious of doing that. Giving away weapons has come back to bite us in the ass before. It would be pretty safe to assume that other civilizations have undergone similar situations.

About the rotting corpse: The only issues it'd cause in Felarya is that it'd draw carrion-feeders and - depending on how fresh - other carnivores that don't soft-vore.

There is no disease to worry about on Felarya. The body isn't going to pose (on its own, directly) a safety hazard to others. Except, perhaps, if it pulls a Soul Reaver / Windle Poons and has its spirit re-possess its old body. Heck, they could theoretically - provided it wasn't carrying parasites - take raw chunks out of it and eat them as they pass / clean it away from the no-man's land.

Sorry, I trailed off. After recapping a little, for those who don't know what are we arguing anymore, Raveolution is saying that Felarya would not exist as long as humans were humans, Gwadahunter2222 says it's not so bad and quotes the existence of man-eating tigers today, Oldman keeps chipping in with his two cents, and Rcs619 says that no one's going to do what Raveolution is suggesting.

I'd say that Gwadahunter has a point, as long as it never happens to people like us mighty arrogant occidental college-educated city folk (or at least, as long as it happens to us only because we're alone and can't get back home, for example, due to stupid portals). Nah, Felarya looks perfectly okay to me. Except for the Miratans, if they're mining for fish, they should be REALLY area-intensive and expansionistic. Everyone else is doing okay, Delurans are merely sizing up Felarya for colonization, and thus don't really care if they lose one or two, they can get a million colonists if they want. Vishmitals probably have a secret agenda which they all share and requires Felarya to stay the way it is for the time being, and anyone else gets the Guardian stick.

Malahite wrote:: About the rotting corpse: The only issues it'd cause in Felarya is that it'd draw carrion-feeders and - depending on how fresh - other carnivores that don't soft-vore.

There is no disease to worry about on Felarya. The body isn't going to pose (on its own, directly) a safety hazard to others. Except, perhaps, if it pulls a Soul Reaver / Windle Poons and has its spirit re-possess its old body. Heck, they could theoretically - provided it wasn't carrying parasites - take raw chunks out of it and eat them as they pass / clean it away from the no-man's land.

Well, yeah attracting scavengers is an issue...but that isn't what I was implying =P

If you killed a pred anywhere near your outpost...imagine how terrible a 100+ ton corpse, slowly rotting in the hot, humid jungle would smell. There might not be any diseases, but you're still going to have bacteria and fungi decomposing it (decomposition organisms need to exist for an ecosystem to work. Immune systems are just boosted by the healing effect to the point where it is nearly impossible to get sick), and if its close enough, its going to make life in your outpost completely miserable...unless you're like the Delurans and have the whole thing enclosed underground where you can seal the outside doors.

Not to mention the sight of something that big, and that human-looking going through the process of decomposition. It would be a horribly gruesome sight, even for the toughest of people.

Definately not good for morale =P

Sigh... why in the world do I keep doing this...

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Raveolution wrote:: The problem is there are major, persistent misconceptions here about human beings and how they would react to Felarya. Did you ever read about the Tsavo Maneaters? This is a good idea on what would happen to Felaryan preds who attacked convoys: humans got tired of lions eating their workers on the railway, and caravan owners will get tired of their workers getting eaten and their goods lost. Proven human history there.

After read the Tsavo Maneaters there is a link to Man-eater you will see in Tanzania between 1990 and 2005 there were at 563 villagers attacked by Lions a number far exceeding the more famed "Tsavo" incidents of a century earlier. The 600 Royal Bengal tiger in Sundarbans are well-known for the substantial number of people they kill, estimates range from 100-250 people per year. They are the only man-eating tigers left in the world, though they are not the only tigers who live in close proximity to humans. You should read to about Man-eating tiger and the famous hunter Jim Corbett

You see, this is my point here. Things go very poorly for man-eaters in the end:

Quote :: However, man-eaters are mostly old and injured tigers, and almost all tigers that are identified as man-eaters are eventually captured, shot or poisoned.
.........
The number of tigers as a whole has dwindled in the twenty-first century, partly due to indiscriminate poaching.

These animals get poisoned, trapped, shot, etc. and are now endangered and facing extinction. (Literally... the Bengal Tiger's conservation status is "endangered".) Things go very badly for man-eaters. You're not showing me any examples here where humans don't take effective action against man-eaters. Least of all Jim Corbett, he's considered a saint for the maneaters he killed.

If foreigners aren't killing these tigers and maneaters, then the local populace is responsible for hunting and poisoning them. In any case, they're endangered now.

My point was maneaters don't tend to get away with man-eating for long. The case you showed me presents examples of them dying in various ways, being hunted by master hunters, and in some cases being threatened with outright extinction.

Oldman40k2003 wrote:

Raveolution wrote:: Okay, it would produce about as much kick as blowing ashes into the air. Nanites don't need to be fired like a bullet; they just need to know their target and float in its direction relatively quickly.

Nano-scaled things move really slowly, because they are so small. As feature sizes get smaller and smaller how a liquid/gas interacts with the objects changes. A large steel ball will sink quickly through the water. A steel BB will sink less quickly. A speck of steel dust will sink very slowly. A nano-sized speck of steel won't sink at all. A nanite trying to fly through the air would find it like trying to fly through water; possible, but slow.

Now, this slow speed is just fine if you are trying to cover an area to kill any preds that come through it, but if you're trying to hit a specific predator at a safe distance, you're going to need to launch the nanites with some force, probably inside of bullet or small rocket.

If this is all true, that still goes very bad for, say, any fairy who grabs a human that subsequently unleashes a cloud of nanites in his defense upon contact. She certainly loses a hand. Not pleasant at all, to say the least. Hope the human doesn't do this when her lips are close by, that might not be a delicious result. A nanite cloud sitting stationary is also deadly because a Pred would walk right into it to seize a human, not knowing they're reaching into a dangerous barrier of sorts.

Oldman40k2003 wrote:: Does a world pockmarked with unbeatable invading forces (and the craters left behind after they piss off a guardian), where the predators cannot prey on anything intelligent for fear of death sound anything at all like the Felarya we all know and love? But this is the unavoidable consequence of having portals to off-world societies and of having humans act like humans. (Well, a few societies would probably make allies among the local pred populations, either through force or through ~~people~~ food shipments, but a betrayal by either side would result in violence and the situation described above.)

How do you propose we fix this little problem?

Hooboy, this part I mulled over for WEEKS to respond to this in a way that wouldn't get me in big trouble.

Vore fetish fantasy is easily achieved without denying human nature. Hit the whole world with the Deluran curse, where all tech rusts in Felarya. Whammo, no human can hope to surmount any Pred. If one isn't willing to make such a drastic move, one can also eliminate any concept of stable portals (but that would break the Felaryan Express and/or Miratan scenario), or let it be like the Rifts universe where no one is safe?

Oldman40k2003 wrote:: To be fair, "what's going to happen" is what would realistically happen. A giant creature that didn't suffer from the square-cube law is simply superior to smaller things in virtually every way. A relatively good example of this is a human versus a kitten (that can only limp along at about two miles per hour, the proportional running speed of kitten sized human). Please don't tell me that you think the kitten has any chance at all? It's too slow to leave you behind, not agile enough to escape your grasp, not strong enough to hurt you, not heavy enough to prevent you from literally throwing it around, and not tough enough to prevent you from killing it.

But while you're right on a strength vs strength comparison, there are other aspects that invalidate this comparison. Kittens don't have the cognitive skills that we humans have, nor do they have a tendency to be armed with anything. This is kittens you're talking about, not creatures that can think (on a human level) and plan traps (like those tinies did when they lured the nekos into a confrontation with howler wolves, or the Jungle Bowl residents who lead Marsh Vipers right into Cypress's belly), etc. Preds vs humans is almost nothing at all like humans vs kittens.

And yes, I will get to digging for that Pentium reference. Smile

I am sorry I did not write down the friggin' link when I saw it. Sad

rcs619 wrote:: Felarya is just not a militarily important world. About the only people it would be of intrest to are scientists. There's no military advantage to invading it.

Ehm, Felarya heals you, grants you immortality, and is loaded with treasures. You have a trifecta of military importance right there. Immortality and the fast healing properties of Felarya would draw VERY important and rich people to want to settle there and live forever. That's because of the age old trait of greed. That's like the #1 human trait by a long shot. The Preds would threaten them and then they'd want the preds out of their faces: in other words they'd defend their turf on Felarya with a military force, paid in Felaryan mega gems and immortality.

rcs619 wrote:: Not to mention the basic fact that no military gives away heavy weaponry and high-explosives to complete strangers they have no stake in. Much less a group of more primitive people. They aren't going to go "Those poor people! Let's butt into a fight that we have no stake in and help!!!"....they are more likely going to go "Those poor people! We better be careful so we don't end up the same way!"

Point taken. But even if the military won't give it away, as I said before, it will be stolen and brought there on the black market. Weapons dealers would profit immensely off of selling big ticket weapons to Felaryan merchants who want to keep their convoys safe. Weapons fall off the truck in the real world quite often.

Where such uber rifles can wind up being handed out for like candy is when some benevolent bastard with a nano-forge (which we are seeing the primitive versions of now, in 2010) gets their hand on it. Perhaps a Government won't distribute it like candy but when one of these things falls off the truck, someone else might.

Raveolution wrote:: You see, this is my point here. Things go very poorly for man-eaters in the end:

The tiger of suburban are still alive, the lions in Tanzania are fine, as Gustave and any attempt to capture it failed. Crocodile of Ramree Island are still alive

Raveolution wrote:: These animals get poisoned, trapped, shot, etc. and are now endangered and facing extinction. (Literally... the Bengal Tiger's conservation status is "endangered".) Things go very badly for man-eaters. You're not showing me any examples here where humans don't take effective action against man-eaters. Least of all Jim Corbett, he's considered a saint for the maneaters he killed.

From his point of view Corbett doesn't see himself as a saint, and the fact these animals are facing extinction is because humans have misconception about their nature due to superstitions, folklores and religions which tend to portray them as evils and exaggerate the threat they represent, so many people thinks it's right to kill them, I forgot the business of their furs because it was fashion in Occident to wear tiger or leopard furs even if you don't really need it. But with the progress of science and better study on their living conditions all these actions were mostly foolish. So the politic of preservation it's way to repair our mistake we humans did on them.

The beast cannot hunt it regular preys due to injuries or illness, the beast is not in its normal sate so it's normal to kill it because it can't live normally even they try to feed on humans because it was easy for them then in wild life a diet only based on humans won't sustain it as its normal prey. This beast will never have a normal live again so it's normal to kill it. Even for the sake of the animal i's the best thing you can do.

The man-eating in overall appears in specific conditions even in a specie potentially man-eating affect only some individuals not the whole specie.

Raveolution wrote:: If foreigners aren't killing these tigers and maneaters, then the local populace is responsible for hunting and poisoning them. In any case, they're endangered now.

I don't think the local population will try something it we look the case Leopard_of_Rudraprayag, for eight years the inhabitants didn't to move alone at night, so the local populations won't be much interested to do that unless they want to increase the number of victims. To deal with this kind of beast if you don't have the competence to deal with them, it's not an amateur or a casual hunter jobs it's a professional work because you can spend many days or many years and try before to find the right beast.

The beasts Jim Corbett killed only him was the best-suited to hunt them.

Raveolution wrote:: My point was maneaters don't tend to get away with man-eating for long. The case you showed me presents examples of them dying in various ways, being hunted by master hunters, and in some cases being threatened with outright extinction.

I don't think so when we read crocodile attacks or late animals attacks against humans the animals are not killed systematically.

They are many case of man-eating lately and the animals responsible are still alive, if they are close to humans habitations they are moved or if it happens on the hunting territory the local population are warned to stay away from the area or to do some specific actions to limit the risk of being attacked.

The man-eating from some large animals is something happen occasionally, but it's not their main diet, the tigers of Suburdan humans are less 3% of their diet. To come back to Felarya even if they feed on humans the predators cannot make a fixed diet including only them they will switch naturally to more suited food they can have a preference on small humanoid creature but their main diet won't only be based on humans.

Subject: Young ones Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:45 am

And another thought if you do kill a giant pred, what if it was a mother? wat does one do with the baby?

Last edited by Anime-Junkie on Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

alliance wrote:: And another thought if you do kill a giant pred, what if it was a mother? wat does one do with the baby?

Options:

Kill it! It may look cute now but in a matter of years it'll be looking at you hungrily
Raise it as your own.
Sell it into slavery (Or Keep it for yourself)
Do nothing, it'll probably die anyway.

Moderator Posts : 661 Join date : 2007-12-08

Anime-Junkie wrote:

alliance wrote:: And another thought if you do kill a giant pred, what if it was a mother? wat does one do with the baby?

Options:

Kill it! It may look cute now but in a matter of years it'll be looking at you hungrily
Raise it as your own.
Sell it into slavery (Or Keep it for yourself)
Do nothing, it'll probably die anyway.

A merciful but stupid person would "Kill it!", a merciful and smart one would "Raise it", a cruel and stupid one would "Sell it", and a cruel and really stupid person would "Do nothing."

Personally, as a believer in nurture over nature, I think the most optimal and moral choice would be to "Raise it" if you have the ability to do so (it hasn't done anything wrong, after all); otherwise "Kill it" (but make sure you actually kill the damn thing!). Selling it into slavery is immoral and likely to make them resent you forever; a serious potential future danger. Doing nothing is the worst of all worlds; it might not die, and it might remember that you killed its mother and abandoned it to its fate; resentment much?

Raising it is the best, because constant personal interaction will essentially force it to deal with you as a person, and even if it hates you for killing its mother, you can explain your actions as simply "the laws of the jungle." If it argues further you can force it to defend your position by asking if it would be okay for it to kill something that was attacking it. In the worst case it will attack you and you'll be forced to kill it (which you can obviously do since you kill its mother), but most likely you'd end up with a non-hostile instead. If you stick to your moral code, are nice to them, and use violence only in self defense, you'll probably even gain their respect and friendship.

Oldman40k2003 wrote:

Anime-Junkie wrote:

alliance wrote:: And another thought if you do kill a giant pred, what if it was a mother? wat does one do with the baby?

Options:

Kill it! It may look cute now but in a matter of years it'll be looking at you hungrily
Raise it as your own.
Sell it into slavery (Or Keep it for yourself)
Do nothing, it'll probably die anyway.

A merciful but stupid person would "Kill it!", a merciful and smart one would "Raise it", a cruel and stupid one would "Sell it", and a cruel and really stupid person would "Do nothing."

Personally, as a believer in nurture over nature, I think the most optimal and moral choice would be to "Raise it" if you have the ability to do so (it hasn't done anything wrong, after all); otherwise "Kill it" (but make sure you actually kill the damn thing!). Selling it into slavery is immoral and likely to make them resent you forever; a serious potential future danger. Doing nothing is the worst of all worlds; it might not die, and it might remember that you killed its mother and abandoned it to its fate; resentment much?

Raising it is the best, because constant personal interaction will essentially force it to deal with you as a person, and even if it hates you for killing its mother, you can explain your actions as simply "the laws of the jungle." If it argues further you can force it to defend your position by asking if it would be okay for it to kill something that was attacking it. In the worst case it will attack you and you'll be forced to kill it (which you can obviously do since you kill its mother), but most likely you'd end up with a non-hostile instead. If you stick to your moral code, are nice to them, and use violence only in self defense, you'll probably even gain their respect and friendship.

Very well thought out. And certainly true... raising could get you someone like Fiona.

» Unit ZER0’s Tactical Operations Guide: Felara Edition