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Archmage_Bael
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PostSubject: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:06 am

So, the initial posts in the "Negav Everyday Life" thread got me thinking, especially that little part about the non human races who aren't allowed to live in Negav, living in Negav.

Now clearly the Isolon eye doesn't outright bar smaller Nagas and other hybrids and potential predators from entering and living there. The Isolon Eye affects everybody differently, and is only influenced by certain factors of course.

I'm not looking for a debate about the Isolon Eye might do, and what it might not. We could have an in depth, nerdy discussion on that for months and never get anywhere.

What the main focus that I would like for this thread, is figuring out Negav's Criminal side. Especially since they are the most dangerous in Negav, like the giant predators in the jungle.

-I'm also interested in what the living situations might be for those Hybrid Races that live in Negav away from prying eyes.
-Do they live in the undercity? Or maybe certain areas of the lower/middle tier of Negav?
-Are most of them born there, or sneak into the city?
-How do they sneak into the city, if the laws in place are only really a formality, and just there to *discourage* predators from entering (A loophole I wouldn't mind. Brings up interesting politics, which is vital to Negav being interesting)
-How might criminal organizations cooperate with smuggling in hybrids
-Why might they do that? (I can think of a couple reasons)

I actually have this idea that one of the most powerful criminal organizations in Negav has a "palace" in the undercity which is led by a Naga, and I can see her having a few scars, on her tail and one or two maybe on her body. For what purpose she'd smuggle in other hybrid races is a mystery, but there'd clearly be a motive, and she could be too powerful for the City Government to take any real action against her.

There's another idea, that small groups around the lower and shadier parts of the city would help people sneak in. I think a similar idea of this was opened a long time ago, but never went anywhere.
-Different sorts of criminal organizations
-what their main focus is
-where in Negav they're situated
-How might people find them
-When I might use the 'why' to find more quality questions. Razz

Anyway this post can go on. I'm curious to know what you guys think Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:01 am

Well a few things to keep in mind about Negav, and that requires quoting. But before I do that, a mini-rant. This has nothing to do with the subject at hand, it's just something I noticed and want to get out of my system before it can possibly go nuclear. Why does everyone default to nagas? Seriously, if a sapient predator is mentioned for anything, even if it's not physically there, a drunk dude dude bragging, a stage name for a fighter at the arena (WWE wrestlers), Bael's idea for a crime lord, it's always a naga. Why? Because Crisis is the setting's mascot and she's a naga? Just cause the mascot's a naga doesn't mean everything has to default to them. I'm getting sick of nagas being used for everything. A little diversity would be nice. Something like, oh, I dunno, a centaur, a sphinx, a dridder, a fairy, a mermaid, a dryad, an elemental, one of the few giant minor species that are worth something, a non-hybrid giant, or a giant beast? There's a big selection to choose from, but no, people are compelled to default to nagas for some reason, and I don't like it.

Now that I got that out of my system, on to the quote.

Da Wiki wrote:
There is (are) only two entrances to the city and both of them are heavily guarded not only by weapons, but also all manner of detection devices and identification spells, to ensure that nothing sneaks in that isn't welcome.

Already, this makes sneaking in/smuggling in the city a very bad option. You'd probably have to wield powerful magic to fool detection, which small predators themselves are extremely unlikely of having, and alternate means of getting in, like teleportation or jumping over the wall via some kind of moon jump spell would probably attract a lot of attention since the streets are so crowded.

Also, any predatory hybrid would not be able to live comfortably in the Lower Tier, and especially not in the Middle Tier. The Lower Tier has the Cremona Maze, which could work I guess, but it's a poor district and there are a lot of gang wars there, so there's gonna be violence with them regardless. The Middle Tier, well that's where most of the actual Negavians live, and they're sure as hell not going to tolerate any snake woman, not after what happened the Great Destruction.

So really the only place they could plausibly live in the city is in the Underground, but that would be sketchy cause we don't know where the entrance to the underground is located, or if there are multiple entrances like a metro network. But that still leaves the issue of how they can even get in the city while somehow getting past both security and the ever busy streets.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:32 am

I suppose because they have more variety than the other races? That and most of the other hybrids have a giant form only. At least when it comes to canon. I'd love to see a pantaur in Negav. Human sized ones are incredibly rare though and unlikely to roam that far south anyway. At least I think they're northern. I'll need to check the wiki again.

Anyway, I'm inclined to believe the two stated entrances are official ones, and that other entrances do exist. Underwater caves leading into an airpocket that leads up into the undercity might be an idea. However, there *is* crime there, and thats whats important.

Also a likely theory would be to bring home a naga egg as "loot" selling it to some rich bastard who wants a slave, or to somebody who feels like being cruel to a naga servant, sexually or other wise, would be justification for what their cousins have done. (unfounded though, as predators eating prey is a very bias-free situation, save for a simple taste preference). Or perhaps they raise the egg itself, or it hatches before they can sell it. Whatever the case, I actually see that whole egg thing being the most COMMON way a Naga gets into negav.

Now a fairy? A dryad? Well there's cultivated dryads, and a fairy will be shot at by anything within a mile of the city. I can even imagine some greenhorn on the city walls firing one of the big canons "because, sir, I saw a fairy!". To which his pissed off superior says "good, now you can retrieve the corpse." */trollface* Chilotaurs dont have a tiny size, they're all medium. Dridders do not have tiny cousins, except for tiny cousins. So unfortunately, nagas are the most likely, and the easiest example. In fact I do believe we've set to say "Naga" meaning human sized regular naga, and to put "Giant/ess" in front when they're not a 'regular' naga.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:36 am

I say the criminal overlord should be a 'Dusk Nymph' A shadowy fairy-like creature for a Shadowy organization

And Dusk Nymphs are uneffected by the Isolon eye and the wiki says they sneak in within the shadows of people


As for ideas as to get past the great gate? I would think Negav secuirty would outright put guards on any addictional tunnels into the city (they could most likely take them for their own use? Would make escape for the upper classes easier)

One way that they would have great diffeculty in securing however would be any sewers going out of the city and into  Motamo river (I presume Negav to have plumbing? It's been around since the tudor times) so as long as people don't mind crawling through sewage (squick!) then they might just be able to get into the city by crawling into a storm drain.

Another idea I've had, and is in my story 'She Who Dares Wins' is that while negav is prepared for magical shapeshifters because the gates are built to detect magic, however there's nothing stoping creatures that have shapeshifting ablities as an inherient genetic trait (Like Mystique from the X-men) And thus there is no magic to detect and so those kind of shapeshifters can walk straight in.

Which is a huge plot point in my story where 'Saskia' a character born with such a rare trait, takes advantage of the blindspot in secuirty to cause havoc.


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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:12 pm

Just cause it's not stated that there are small counterparts doesn't mean there aren't.  I think unless it's stated that this particular species or sub-species is comprised of only giant specimens, like the Jotuns or Aloes Elves, or vice versa, then there should be room for variances in size, and I think a general consensus is that giant specimens are far less common than small ones, yet are much better known since they have such a big (hurr hurr) presence in Felarya.  More reason why I think the wiki needs to be completely overhauled.  As you said yourself, the correct terms should be "<species' name>" for the common ones and just talking about the species as a whole, and "Giant <species>" when talking about the bigger members of that species.  This is why I'm not a fan of Giants and Giantesses being shoved to the Minor Races as their own separate race of supersized humans.  It makes people wrongfully believe that some species are all inherently giant, when in reality, they aren't.  The entry for "Giants and Giantesses" should be part of the Human entry, because they're essentially supersized humans, with the same human anatomy and features, minus the size.  Same with the Tomthumbs, they're fundamentally miniature humans.  Of course, there are exceptions to that rule.  Dryads will almost always be giant because they're tree people and trees tend to inherently grow to tremendous in Felarya, so calling them Giant Dryads would technically be incorrect.  Fairies can almost always shift-size at will, so referring to their species as Giant Fairy would be incorrect.  Elementals are spirits that inhabit a mass of land or some kind of energy to make a body out of, so their size are dependent of what they can find, and since something like an Ice Elemental or a Lava Elemental aren't technically different species, as it's simply two spirits who chose different kind of matter to inhabit, calling an elemental a Giant Elemental would also be incorrect.

Anyway, let's drop that subject and focus on the actual discussion.  Smuggling an egg would probably be the most common way someone could smuggle a predatory species in the city indeed, but I imagine it would still be a little tricky to get it past security if word of a smuggling ring became public knowledge.  Difficult, but feasible, I'm down with that.  Of course, that would limit the type of species that could be smuggled in cause not all sapient species lay eggs, and good luck stealing the eggs of a fish woman, cause as we all know, any inhabited water in Felarya or any fantasy setting for that matter is death incarnate and should be avoided like the plague.  Speaking of water, illegal passages in Negav might exist, and would probably be one way crime lords in the Negav Underground could smuggle their goods in the city, though I'm worried that bad writers would suddenly create hundreds of these passages, and in turn make Negav's security seem worse than Arkham Asylum's.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:01 pm

Would such a criminal organization also oversee the illegal trade of tinies? Because I imagine a bunch of nekos would be involved.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:57 pm

Shady Knight wrote:
calling an elemental a Giant Elemental would also be incorrect.

Unless it's an elemental made up of a bunch of giants compiled into a single being. *bricked*
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:29 pm

Shady Knight wrote:
though I'm worried that bad writers would suddenly create hundreds of these passages, and in turn make Negav's security seem worse than Arkham Asylum's.

Personally I think bad writers are already doing that, like in cases in some stories where the cities' gate guards are passive to the point of just being decoration and don't actually stop anyone from entering the city, no matter how suspicious the newcomers are.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:56 am

DarkOne wrote:
Shady Knight wrote:
though I'm worried that bad writers would suddenly create hundreds of these passages, and in turn make Negav's security seem worse than Arkham Asylum's.

Personally I think bad writers are already doing that, like in cases in some stories where the cities' gate guards are passive to the point of just being decoration and don't actually stop anyone from entering the city, no matter how suspicious the newcomers are.

I think its not about how bad writers write, because writers write no matter whether they're bad or good (at writing Razz). Its about whether or not its canon.

Sure those bad writers might have their works seen by others, and that might be the general representation, leading to our fear that people see bad writing and leave the community because they think it sucks, but that's what we call the "slippery slope fallacy", that one thing leads to another, and (can) cause(s) a near unending channel of events.

Sewers have been around for aaaaages, before even the industrial revolution our world went though. I'd think its safe to say Negav would have some form of sewers, and likely a few exits. There could be some guard postings, with passages leading from those posting areas up to say a tower or barracks where there's higher security, and the guards can get from safety to their post and back with relative ease. There could also be special access ways meant for these guards/soldiers/police that could lead from there into the undercity. That might be a taunting proposition for the smugglers, but also as long as its relatively well patrolled (as it should be), with decent security, Criminals would try to find a way around it. It'd be too much effort.

That having been said, you can only patrol a certain possible entrance way into Negav a certain amount before its impractical. You'd just hope not many people would use it, or they'd have assistance from various devices. Either way, there'd still be openings and gaps in security that could be exploited by organized crime groups.

Also, the guards are likely to not be there during the night. It'd be too dangerous. To keep in mind a real world example of this, across the bay from me, at Richmond, CA the police literally will not respond to a 9-1-1 call if you make it past dark, because the gap in wealth and class, the segregation and violence make the disparity really obvious and unfortunate. Emergency personnel will not respond until morning.


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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:06 am

I don't think it would make sense if guards were absent at night. Sure, there would likely be less people trying to get in the city at night, but if you think about it, if criminals realize they can slip in with their goods at night, then it's only a matter of time before guards also realize the huge flaw in security and work to rectify it by having people work during night time. Why should they make things easy for criminals?
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:25 am

Of course, but they'd likely be attacked and killed more during the night.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:55 am

So do regular cops during the day.  There are instances where they'll have to confront armed criminals and there's a probability they may die on duty as a result.  It's a part of the job.  Also, it's not like they're out in the middle of the jungle, they can feasibly take on the criminals.  What you're saying is that because there's a slightly higher probability they will be attacked at night, thus a higher probability they'll die on duty, they should not be there and leave a huge hole in security for criminals to exploit.  There may as well be no guards period if they're that scared of being attacked.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:46 pm

Mye question is...who said cops are the only thing you should be worried about if your a Hardy criminal. People would sick contractors or providers (how ever you wan't to look at that buisness) on you if you get too illusive in the underground world; Just like today with Cartels and human slavery. (the more morally right ones would be doing this or the those with a lot of money.) Not to mention those said private contractors or providers that make they're money securing or fighting other assets outside of negave are those guards with that kind of experience. (like bounty hunters from starwars or Sellswords from game of thrones) Those are the kind of guys your going to be afraid of in Negav as a criminal other than the VISA. Otherwise just expect it like what the actual Mafia (real gangs) does and prepare to be harassed like that.

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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:09 pm

Also remember that the Magiocrats own this city, if they were to notice that too many criminals were sneaking into their city by a underground network, they might see it fit to fix the problem by simply putting a anti-breakin magical enchantment in there.

Magical tunnel door: "Password?"

Criminal: "Ugh....open sesame?"

Magical tunnel door: "ACCESS DENIED! INTRUDER! INTRUDER! ALARM! ALARM! SOMEONE COME DOWN AND KICK HIS ASS!"


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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:13 am

Grave wrote:
Would such a criminal organization also oversee the illegal trade of tinies? Because I imagine a bunch of nekos would be involved.

Oh, SURE, just assume the nekos are behind it. No wonder felines have a hard time finding work in Negav. For all we know, those tinies could be shipping themselves in and selling off their own kind as labor, then they blame the nekos and instigate massive racial wars.

IT'S A CONSPIRACY, I TELL YOU.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:51 am

Pendragon wrote:
Grave wrote:
Would such a criminal organization also oversee the illegal trade of tinies? Because I imagine a bunch of nekos would be involved.

Oh, SURE, just assume the nekos are behind it. No wonder felines have a hard time finding work in Negav. For all we know, those tinies could be shipping themselves in and selling off their own kind as labor, then they blame the nekos and instigate massive racial wars.

IT'S A CONSPIRACY, I TELL YOU.

Woulden't be surprised if there were Tinies that did that, human history has quite a few examples of people doing that to their own kind. For example, while it was white plantation owners that took in black slaves centuries ago, it was very unlikely to actually be a white man who captured the african natives. It was actually other tribes that captured and handed their neibours to the white company men, people forget that not all tribes got along, they sometimes fought over resources. So it wasn't any skin on some tribe's backs to trade equipment with settlers to gain access to firearms and then hunt down their rival tribes.

Cases like this also happened with native americans and the samurai. So it's very likely that Tinies in Negav would turn on their own kind. Most likely in the case of Negavian Tinies helping to cacth wild Tinies.

After all, a Tinie doesn't even have to track down other Tinies like a Neko would have to because a Tinie is more likely to know where the hidden settlements are and would be able to befreind them to lure them into a false sense of secuirty. All he has to do then is promise to take wild Tinies to the city for a "Better life." Where his employers will be waiting...


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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:07 pm

DarkOne wrote:
Pendragon wrote:
Grave wrote:
Would such a criminal organization also oversee the illegal trade of tinies? Because I imagine a bunch of nekos would be involved.

Oh, SURE, just assume the nekos are behind it. No wonder felines have a hard time finding work in Negav. For all we know, those tinies could be shipping themselves in and selling off their own kind as labor, then they blame the nekos and instigate massive racial wars.

IT'S A CONSPIRACY, I TELL YOU.

Woulden't be surprised if there were Tinies that did that, human history has quite a few examples of people doing that to their own kind. For example, while it was white plantation owners that took in black slaves centuries ago, it was very unlikely to actually be a white man who captured the natives. It was actually other black tribes that captured and handed their neibours to the white company men, people forget that not all tribes got along, they sometimes fought over resources. So it wasn't any skin on some tribe's backs to trade equipment with settlers to gain access to firearms and then hunt down their rival tribes.

Cases like this also happened with native americans and the samurai. So it's very likely that Tinies in Negav would turn on their own kind. Most likely in the case of Negavian Tinies helping to cacth wild Tinies.

After all, a Tinie doesn't even have to track down other Tinies like a Neko would have to because a Tinie is more likely to know where the hidden settlements are and would be able to befreind them to lure them into a false sense of secuirty. All he has to do then is promise to take wild Tinies to the city for a "Better life." Where his employers will be waiting...

YEAH! It's about time someone turned Grave's fantastic racism back on it's ass! >:p
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:38 pm

>.< What? Tinies aren't mean like you nekos are!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:32 am

I guess there should be some secret passages only the higher magiocrates know about. Probably the saidakins have a quick way out of the city that only they can use (you know, stealthy and stuff *-*)
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:14 am

Grave wrote:
>.< What? Tinies aren't mean like you nekos are!!!!

Coming from the rat sympathizer? Ho ho that's a good one.

Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:46 am

So anyway, still wondering about a great many things regarding this thread's topic.

I suppose the first one brought up should be whether or not hybrid races are seen in Negav. From DarkOne's reference they are, from ShadyKnight's they aren't, yet that's a broader scope, less refined than DarkOne's. Clearly I think they are physically capable of entering barring the front gate's security.

If there are secret passages, or entrances, using those to get into the city would be the best solution - which would make things very interesting for the life of a human sized hybrid that wants to live in Negav - maybe willing to take the scorn from humans over the dangers of the jungle any day. Talk about a hard life.

Once again, this could also lead to said character to get into organized crime, which is what I want to focus on anyway. If we want to truly develop Negav, this is a vital area, considering its mentioned the only real predators of Negav to be found are the criminal kind.

Does anyone have specific information on how a criminal organization is run, if so we could find a way to adapt that to Negav's standard.

Also, I'm wondering what Negav's official definition of "Crime" would be, and if they'd define it with loopholes in mind for economic reasons.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:13 am

I don't think anyone can really tell you how a criminal organization is run cause that would require, you know, being a criminal, and that would be bad. I don't think it's necessary to explain how organized crime would operate in Negav since no two organization would operate the same way. It's best that you leave it unmentioned so that there's some creative freedom for whoever wants to write a story around the Negavian Mafia.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:25 am

Yeah, as shady said, I don't think anyone here has personal insight into organized crime XD

But given that there is a wealth of Movies, books, TV documentaries, video games and famous historical events that has involved organized crime, I'd suggest getting inspiration from there. Felarya is a fantasy setting anyways, no need to be 100% realistic on the depiction.

Generally though it really depends on the criminals themselves and how smart their leader is.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:05 am

I smirked to myself as I was typing that. (At 3AM, mind) Its interesting that's the primary thing people get out of my post, haha.
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PostSubject: Re: Felarya Criminal (under)World   Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:47 am

But anyway, in all seriousness, I had a bit of an inkling to ask what kind of typical magic-based organized crime would exist in such a high magic fantasy setting. I've been thinking the smuggling of illegal magic items, though what kind of magic item would be deemed illegal is up in the air. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say cursed items would be a given, but given their nature, you have to wonder who and why they would want to sell a cursed item to, and how worth it would be given how dangerous it is to handle cursed items. But mages and crimes that revolve a lot around the use of magic shouldn't get all the fun.
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Felarya Criminal (under)World
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