Fleshing out Vishmitals

Bluehorizon wrote:

Here's a better question with that stabs, How are you going to know where the other vishmital are if you don't know where they went after a mid transit faster than light travel. As far as people from their original universe, they think of them as dead. To the people that came from the felarya faction then went outside felarya, wouldn't they still be vishmital because they got scent from the hierachy to go out in the first place?

After 200 years, if they could've found each other through the gates, they really, really should have. If the gates could lead them somehow to where the Vishmitals are, outside of Felarya, then they should've found out by then.
Also, it's been 200 years, so that's enough time to consider someone either dead or estranged. Who's to say those are even the same people as before? Y U no age? Explanations are due when someone goes missing for that long and then turns up alive. In the middle of a civil war, no less.

Bluehorizon wrote:

The initial fleet insertion failed their dimensional drives. Anyone from that large fleet they used to have (which was all of them) had their dimensional drives fail. Now to explain why fleets come in at different times to bulk up the population. You could say the dimensional flux to travel through is an anomaly itself. Like Even though a fleet popped out on the plane at one point, another fleet could pop in a few decades later but have it only feel like minutes to them, and only because that particular incident made it feasible not to mention it wasn't a controlled incident either.

Now this is where it gets complicated...Vishmital supposedly make up most the security, so to say magiocrats have a complete handle on the trade factor is...Kind of redundant and contradictory of the other faction controls all the security of what comes in and out of the city and gate. You got to remember also that with in the Negav government, there are some nobles and such that personally like to get favor from the vishmitals to get away with thing for trade and technology exploitation and acquisition.

We could do the temporal displacement thing, but they still would have no way of crossing over to the rest of the universe. The Vishmitali are not known for using portals, unlike the rest, and even those known for using portals tend to use them as plot devices. Plus, they didn't always control the gate security.

Bluehorizon wrote:

You don't you can go a lot of ways with this. The Magiocrats don't like to use hard technology so they culturally embezzle the stuff to keep the citizens that are loyal or liked by them to keep using magic, same thing goes with technology. Vishmital tell their people to keep using tech but not to be strangers to magic. The in between of people that wan't to use technology or magic are the more experimental folk. Stories and comics could revolve around them trying to get use to that kind of lifestyle. After all, magic is supposedly in everyone or untapped once they enter felarya.

Also I wouldn't say the only way to enter in an out of felarya is magic. If you look at the Delurians, miritans, Hat's UHC, and any other technological race that has set ground, they use portals (Though not as large as the gate) to get by, If your a technological race seeing another technological race do that, you're going to try and reverse engineer that tech. The only issue with the vishmital is that they have know home to hail too, And if one of the large pockets from the fleet scattering managed to make a fleet itself offworld, how would you know where they are? Did the vishmital try to find their scattered fleet off world with broken dimensional drives (Not transdimensional or warp drives being broken) to find the others? That could still be a lingering and ongoing endeavor with the present or current timeline.

My apologies- rather than Felarya, I meant Negav: the gate that handles most of the comings and goings was made by the Magiocrats. Also while the Vishmital have no home to hail to, they still have people outside, whom I assume they intend to keep in contact.

Bluehorizon wrote:

So Stabs. I suggest with this part we be more specific. As to what ships made it in through each wave and how much of a presence there actually is. 10k people doesn't sound bad if you make it in the right context to fit in the setting in my opinion, we personally need to play around with that more. As far as I'm aware, i could have sword karbo said several times that negav is near the million range, even the wiki implies that. So it wouldn't be too big if the vishmital even made 1/10th or even 1/5th of the population. Long as they are an influential minority that effects the politics of the others to get away with some stuff while still being damned and contending with the magiocrat policies.

However camping outside of Negav gives them more freedom to do as they please and i'm pretty sure the magiocrats would see that as a asset to their cause anyways. The less of them inside negav the more they have control of over it. Infact I can imagine some B.S. the magiocrat can make up to either sway or encourage the Vishmital to make population pilgrimages and encourage them to expand outside of negav. Hence the outpost (agreeing with vix here that it should be called a base). And several or more towns that we don't know of that they affiliate or directly control. In the magiocrats eyes this would be them thinning themselves out, in the vishmitals eyes this would be the ideal of expanding their reach where ever they are at in the universe to make the empire vast and grand again. You can look at one or the other as bad or good.

That base though...That really needs work in how it was formed, A ship force landing there and then building around it doesn't sound like a bad idea.

I've always wondered, if they had ships, why were they so insistent in staying in Negav. What were they looking for that forced them to stay there?

Also, rather than a minority, I understand that they're an enclave which doesn't interact with Negav at large. Not usually, at least.

Stabs wrote:

After 200 years, if they could've found each other through the gates, they really, really should have. If the gates could lead them somehow to where the Vishmitals are, outside of Felarya, then they should've found out by then.
Also, it's been 200 years, so that's enough time to consider someone either dead or estranged. Who's to say those are even the same people as before? Y U no age? Explanations are due when someone goes missing for that long and then turns up alive. In the middle of a civil war, no less.

That's more plot device though and ultimately karbos decision, I would imagine they did myself but as far as contact goes that depends. As far as the dead or estranged thing that also depends, Each vishmital ship was meant to be independent should that fleet ever get split up but because of of what i'm calling now "The unity mark" Should they come in contact again it would be one thread or bridge connecting to another again but you are right explanations are needed. As far as civil war goes, I don't know what you mean as that wasn't decided or hasn't happened in their universe yet. The scattering of their fleet was more of a incident than infighting. Unless you are talking about the rebels that we still need to make their motives and ideals on.

Stabs wrote:

We could do the temporal displacement thing, but they still would have no way of crossing over to the rest of the universe. The Vishmitali are not known for using portals, unlike the rest, and even those known for using portals tend to use them as plot devices. Plus, they didn't always control the gate security.

Sounds good. But i don't know what you mean by "But they still would have no way of crossing over to the rest of the universe." As much as I don't understand what you mean by that, I have to ask, why not?

The thing about the gate is that they do control it now and near their inception upon their arrivial in negav, of course this is always subject to change as we think of more way to make their insertion in negav retconned and comprehensible.

Stabs wrote:

My apologies- rather than Felarya, I meant Negav: the gate that handles most of the comings and goings was made by the Magiocrats. Also while the Vishmital have no home to hail to, they still have people outside, whom I assume they intend to keep in contact.

In what mannerism? This would be after the fact of them going on their exodus and scattering. So making contact outside is after those two large events. So, yeah I mean they have people to contact but it would be in our eyes, Negav vishmital contact outside, we don't know much about the others and if there are others that have established contact.

Stabs wrote:

I've always wondered, if they had ships, why were they so insistent in staying in Negav. What were they looking for that forced them to stay there?

Also, rather than a minority, I understand that they're an enclave which doesn't interact with Negav at large. Not usually, at least.

I say minority because it seems like their population came in waves, they be a small population and a enclave, I don't see why not? As to why stick in negav I can see a lot of factors that play into that. Assimilation through immersion, Feesible start to start expanding an empire from. trying to convince the people they are the betters in making a bountiful civilization. That's what the commander and the politicians among the vishmital can think. If karbo Is still on the idea of their being rebels or "Sepratist" I have an idea for that as well.

So to explain how their would be a rebel faction, even though the unity mark is still within them, the only thing that it's doing to their psyche is make then more stable as communities so there's little infraction inside the empire as possible. So on a wide scale this would actually be the best environment to see that to a good fruition.

Now that they are in negav, their empire and their fleet for that matter isn't as grand as it was, and a outside influence (The magiocrats) keeps hagling them from the progression of making that empire. The rebels would be in the clause that The current commander and politicians in the vishmital sphere aren't doing their job on trying to recreate the empire. So these separatist could think that they don't need the Magiocrats or Negavn's much to expand and grow. Especially at the loss of a base and ship due to incompetency and consorting with the Magiocrats to make that decision in the first place which led to, a lost base and more lives lost. I got a lot more plot into this but it's the only real way I can see the Vishmital infighting each other to such a significant degree where it causes a problem. If I need to go into further detail, I would like to be asked to.

Bluehorizon wrote:

That's more plot device though and ultimately karbos decision, I would imagine they did myself but as far as contact goes that depends. As far as the dead or estranged thing that also depends, Each vishmital ship was meant to be independent should that fleet ever get split up but because of of what i'm calling now "The unity mark" Should they come in contact again it would be one thread or bridge connecting to another again but you are right explanations are needed. As far as civil war goes, I don't know what you mean as that wasn't decided or hasn't happened in their universe yet. The scattering of their fleet was more of a incident than infighting. Unless you are talking about the rebels that we still need to make their motives and ideals on.

Bluehorizon wrote:

Stabs wrote:

We could do the temporal displacement thing, but they still would have no way of crossing over to the rest of the universe. The Vishmitali are not known for using portals, unlike the rest, and even those known for using portals tend to use them as plot devices. Plus, they didn't always control the gate security.

Sounds good. But i don't know what you mean by "But they still would have no way of crossing over to the rest of the universe." As much as I don't understand what you mean by that, I have to ask, why not?

The thing about the gate is that they do control it now and near their inception upon their arrivial in negav, of course this is always subject to change as we think of more way to make their insertion in negav retconned and comprehensible.

Bluehorizon wrote:

Stabs wrote:

My apologies- rather than Felarya, I meant Negav: the gate that handles most of the comings and goings was made by the Magiocrats. Also while the Vishmital have no home to hail to, they still have people outside, whom I assume they intend to keep in contact.

In what mannerism? This would be after the fact of them going on their exodus and scattering. So making contact outside is after those two large events. So, yeah I mean they have people to contact but it would be in our eyes, Negav vishmital contact outside, we don't know much about the others and if there are others that have established contact.

I'd agree that they almost certainly have established contact with the rest of the Vishmital remnants, enough that they can probably even go visit if they really want to. Given that it's only been 200 years and not, say, 2000, it's entirely likely that there's still a strong enough connection to keep ties intact, especially since the Felarya fragment was known to be lost; they wouldn't be the first Vishmital fleet to go missing and pop up decades later, having found a planet or two to sit on and recover. I'd imagine that the whole 'no aging, no disease' thing is less impressive to them than to us, simply because Vishmital medical technology is probably pretty advanced. The big issue is that the gates are small and controlled by the Magiocrats. Even if the Vishmital could fit a battlecruiser through, the Psi'ol would probably try and sink it as soon as it exited. They can communicate and travel, with difficulty, but there's no chance of using the gates to bring in raw materials or get the ships off Felarya. And to me, that's the big reason why the Vishmital are still on Felarya after 200 years; between the predators, the Psi'ol and other human factions, and the fact that the place is a giant dimensional sinkhole that's pure death to warp drives, it's a crappy place to set up, but they've got a decent fleet there, so might was well make the best of it. It does help that it's removed from the rest of the Vishmital fleet enough that it's likely to survive if they get overtaken.

Bluehorizon wrote:

Stabs wrote:

I've always wondered, if they had ships, why were they so insistent in staying in Negav. What were they looking for that forced them to stay there?

Also, rather than a minority, I understand that they're an enclave which doesn't interact with Negav at large. Not usually, at least.

I say minority because it seems like their population came in waves, they be a small population and a enclave, I don't see why not? As to why stick in negav I can see a lot of factors that play into that. Assimilation through immersion, Feesible start to start expanding an empire from. trying to convince the people they are the betters in making a bountiful civilization. That's what the commander and the politicians among the vishmital can think. If karbo Is still on the idea of their being rebels or "Sepratist" I have an idea for that as well.

So to explain how their would be a rebel faction, even though the unity mark is still within them, the only thing that it's doing to their psyche is make then more stable as communities so there's little infraction inside the empire as possible. So on a wide scale this would actually be the best environment to see that to a good fruition.

Now that they are in negav, their empire and their fleet for that matter isn't as grand as it was, and a outside influence (The magiocrats) keeps hagling them from the progression of making that empire. The rebels would be in the clause that The current commander and politicians in the vishmital sphere aren't doing their job on trying to recreate the empire. So these separatist could think that they don't need the Magiocrats or Negavn's much to expand and grow. Especially at the loss of a base and ship due to incompetency and consorting with the Magiocrats to make that decision in the first place which led to, a lost base and more lives lost. I got a lot more plot into this but it's the only real way I can see the Vishmital infighting each other to such a significant degree where it causes a problem. If I need to go into further detail, I would like to be asked to.

As for why they'd stay near Negav, in particular, I think it would be a combination of politics and economics; sort of like how major countries have embassies near each other's capitols and large ports. Plus, that's where the main gate is. That said, I would think that there would be several Vishmital population centers; I agree with Blue's thought of them forming around landed ships. When they first got on Felarya, they'd have probably regrouped regionally into a handful of disparate fleets on the main Felaryan continent (there are likely more on other continents on the plane), and then landed where they could find a good spot to nearby, given their inability to make orbit or even high altitude for better relocation (a good number of those early fleet ships tend to be missing dorsal masts and features that got taken off by the sky barrier). I'm personally partial to one around the Topazial Sea cost region in the east. Smaller ships, especially patrol frigates, would be used to establish small outposts in the areas around the main bases, while the civilian ships and motherships would land inside a sparse ring of escorts and capital ships. They'd have lost a few smaller ships to predators before they realized that "holy crap, where'd the square-cube law go?", but lost a handful large ships to damage suffered in the forced transition into realspace. I'd personally see the Negav shiptown to be a smaller one established later, after making contact with the Psi'ol, that they set up by having a few ships take off and move there. Due to their lack of shipbuilding capability, though, a lot of what they've built up since landing isn't so mobile, so they're loathe to abandon the original landing sites unless there's good reason to.

Gamma wrote:

I'd agree that they almost certainly have established contact with the rest of the Vishmital remnants...

When I say fleet, and the rest of them I'm saying the vishmital fleet still is kind of scattered, Finding the thousands to millions of ships since that incident. The incident itself made large to small clusters/flotillas of the original fleet split up to hundreds if not thousands of smaller fleets. They honestly could be anywhere lost on felarya to another dimensional hold that is near Felarya dimensional threshold and mapping in influence. Finding the other is an ongoing thing and in 200 years you don't know if those smaller fleets got larger or completely disappear depending on where they decided to set up camp.

Gamma wrote:

-enough that they can probably even go visit if they really want to. Given that it's only been 200 years and not, say, 2000, it's entirely likely that there's still a strong enough connection to keep ties intact, especially since the Felarya fragment was known to be lost

The Felarya fragment is lost like any other fragment again. The time displacement thing that stabs suggested really doesn't help either

-They wouldn't be the first Vishmital fleet to go missing and pop up decades later, having found a planet or two to sit on and recover. I'd imagine that the whole 'no aging, no disease' thing is less impressive to them than to us, simply because Vishmital medical technology is probably pretty advanced. The big issue is that the gates are small and controlled by the Magiocrats. Even if the Vishmital could fit a battlecruiser through, the Psi'ol would probably try and sink it as soon as it exited. They can communicate and travel, with difficulty, but there's no chance of using the gates to bring in raw materials or get the ships off Felarya. And to me, that's the big reason why the Vishmital are still on Felarya after 200 years; between the predators, the Psi'ol and other human factions, and the fact that the place is a giant dimensional sinkhole that's pure death to warp drives, it's a crappy place to set up, but they've got a decent fleet there, so might was well make the best of it. It does help that it's removed from the rest of the Vishmital fleet enough that it's likely to survive if they get overtaken.[/quote]

Agree that's how I'd like to compliment my thought empathetically on their situation.

Bluehorizon wrote:

When I say fleet, and the rest of them I'm saying the vishmital fleet still is kind of scattered, Finding the thousands to millions of ships since that incident. The incident itself made large to small clusters/flotillas of the original fleet split up to hundreds if not thousands of smaller fleets. They honestly could be anywhere lost on felarya to another dimensional hold that is near Felarya dimensional threshold and mapping in influence. Finding the other is an ongoing thing and in 200 years you don't know if those smaller fleets got larger or completely disappear depending on where they decided to set up camp.

I get you. Shall we reword "making contact with the fleet" to "making contact with other remnants" instead? If the remnants were all trying to find each other, it follows that at least a significant fraction would've found the rest, if they could.

The maths are a bit too complicated to go into right now, but imagine we had 101 remnants. If after 200 years, every remnant's efforts are rewarded by meeting one other remnant, then we don't have each remnant getting in touch with one: they get in touch with every remnant the remnants they get in touch with have gotten in touch with too. Odds are good that most of the survivors will have found each other.

Bluehorizon wrote:

The Felarya fragment is lost like any other fragment again. The time displacement thing that stabs suggested really doesn't help either

I don't remember suggesting it, Blue, I thought you brought it up?

Bluehorizon wrote:

Agree that's how I'd like to compliment my thought empathetically on their situation.

I agree, Gamma. That works for me.

Hello; I was recently asked to plan out the cataclysm/genocide that broke up the Vishmital Empire, forcing the survivours to scatter to parts unknown. Overall the goal is to cripple the Empire; render it unable to function as a galaxy spanning super power, rather than leaving nothing but ash and dust while killing every last man, woman and child.

The Trigger: With an Empire that dominated most of their home galaxy a fear of stagnation and eventual decline took root within the leadership class; afterall they were running out of worlds to colonise and incooperate into their fold. As such the dynamism that kept everyone moving forward would slowly fade, what would be the motivation to keep the ever expanding population going in a united fashion? At the time the possibility of traveling to different destinctive dimensions was treated with caution at best and outright cynicism at worst. An empire in decline would lead to dissent within the greater population, esspecially younger generations born into such a situation. Thus a radical idea, the Unity Project, seemed the most favourable way to keep the Empire's population loyal and cooperative. Using a genetically engineered implant to subtly alter the brain development and chemistry of the host to ensure their personnal loyalty; seemed the most humane and cost effective method while able to guarantee the desired affect. Such an implant could be marketed and designed to give health benifits while its true purpose remains a secret, afterall rumours and conspiracy theories of mind altering experiments were common place, though limited to a minority of little consequence. It was agreed that the implant would used initially on infants, the claim to help fight off infection, all the while subtely addearing them more to the Vishmital cause without them being aware of it. Given the majority of the older population were already in patriotic spirits with the sucess of the Empire's recent expansion efforts, it was deemed unlikely this 'biochemical assisted indoctrination' would cause any alarm should certain behavior patterns on the expression of loyalty be noticed. If anything it would induce a social pressure on parents to ensure their children remained patriotic. The implant was desgined so that once the infants had matured, it too would be passed down as a dominant gene, replicating the implant when they procreate allowing the cycle to continue. Mathematical models predicted that over 95% of the Empire's citizenry would display loyal behavior regardless of generation even if the next expansion phase were to fail in the following decades.

-However for some this very idea was proof to them that the Empire was in stagnation if not decline given what was being considered and in many cases undergoing wider tests within the population. Of course all knowledge of the nature of the Unity Project was kept behind closed doors, many were kept in ignorance; even those conducting the tests on volunteers. Political pressure of varying degrees was sused to keep everyone quiet, those who did speak out usually did so with directed misinformation usually to tie in with the more wild conspiracy theorists. It soon became easier to keep quiet and focus on fighting this politically, of course such efforts were often futile. Resistance to the Unity Project was strongest in the lower levels of the Leadership Class, for many the very existance of an individual's free will was on the line, for others they only saw a corrupt leadership going to extrodinary means to secure power; by -in their view- turning the citizenry into slaves. The more hard line opposition who sided more with the latter view soon came under direct political attack; some were arrested under false charges, the media ensuring the greater public remained ignorant, the focus being made on the successes in preperation of the next expansion phase.

-Political oposition to the Unity Project was soon driven underground where views began to become enbittered and twisted with solutions ranging from sabotage of the project to an outright insurrection. The idea this was about the need to retain free will of the citizenry was lost; replaced by the need to replace a villified leadership and their potential legions of chemically altered slaves. As the Unity Project was rolled out into Empire wide release, the opposition began to mobilise; some were able to draw support from local populations using them to stage protests, others were more direct and violent, including the destruction of prepared medical centres; though their efforts were divided as their desired outcomes. Some resorted to outright treason, collaberating with external elements to force a change; the insurrection had begun. The logical of these few was such that a generation would need to be sacrificed so that those which followed would be free; this idea horrified many of the opposition, some enough to expose themselves in a vain hope of stopping such a plan. Yet this only drove the rebels into the sway of the Empire's external enemies who had no qualms on committing genocide of their hated foe. Bound by both hatred and a fear they would face an enemy populated by zealots, the various clans and rebel factions set the foundations of a united enity so they could actually inflict some meaningful damage against the Vishmitals. Of course even their combined almarda would be no match for the vast fleets of the Empire, thus their first target would be the citizenry, afterall their desired goal was to exterminate the generation which had the Unity Implant.  

The Means Of Genocide: To confront the Vishmitals directly would be suicide; targeting the citizenry and more importantly agiculture would both fulfill one of their aims while weakening their military forces. This total war would require the use of biological warfare on a planetary scale; a method that hard worked in conflicts past. Much earlier in the history of the Vishmital Empire, resistance to their rule from both internal and external factions was common place, as was the collective punishments of those involved. The conventional orbital bomdardments, including the use of nuclear eqivalent weapons, while terrifying, was deemed inefficient given the resuorces required if total planetry pacification was required. Another drawback was that the planet in question would also lose any strategic value either by being rendered uninhabitable or through the destruction of key industry. A cleaner method was required; famine. A biological weapon was designed to infect and alter microbes contained within a planet's soil; forcing them to excrete chemicals which prevented or at the very least stunted growth of all green plants. Even if the infected microbes were to die off, the chemicals could be retained in the soil for years, still remaining chemically active. In theory such a weapon -if deployed correctly- could render a planet's soil totally unsuitable for plant growth in less than a generation, in practice however one bad harvest and the resulting food shortages was enough to force a surrender. A varient of the weapon which infected alege, rendering them toxic, was also developed and deployed. While used on multiple campaigns, these weapons soon fell out of public favour given the long term suffering they could cause, while over abundent use would not result in the 'clean' solution that it was designed for. However the weapon was still stockpiled and production facilities were retained should such a weapon be required in the future. The memories of being on the receiving end of such weapons die hard and the desire to turn it against its owner was easily sparked.

-Extracting and weaponising viral samples taken from planets that had perviously fallen victim to the Vishmital's wrath along with samples smuggled from military stockpiles; their enemies now possessed one of the means to inflict their downfall. Such a weapon would be used to directly target agriculture to induce widespread famine; its use would not be overwhelming at first, rather as the virus does not destory its intended host, only a small sample is required to infect a target world given the time. As such its initial effects would most likely be ignored, while ensuring each harvest was progressively worse, eventually leading to wide spread famine at the intended point in time. To further assist in the use of the virus, various agencies would be infiltrated  to ensure the alarm is not raised at the first opportunity to buy time and allow its spread. Use of clandestine operations would be used as a method to spread the virus, though the primary method would be the use of natural asteroids converted into missiles to carry the weapon. If conducted correctly it would both limit the time and proximity of vessels in Vishmital patrol zones while bypassing any detectors before the asteroid becomes a meteorite; releasing the virus canisters as it burns up in the atmosphere. Even with the loss of 25% of these asteroid missiles, less than 30 would be initially required to ensure a desired infection on the target world. Being able to attack several hundred planets with minimal resources.

-One such weapon would not be enough however, an attack on the required scale would require a 'hydra' strategy where by different agents, each one having different effects, would be deployed. While the agri-virus would be the primary biological weapon to cause casualties, albeit via famine, at least one other would be used to act as an alternative threat to further stretch the Empire's resources. This virus would be used to indirectly target the citizenry. Initial use of the agri-virus showed that direct human or animal contact could lead to the symbiotic microbes with in the digestive system becoming infected. Though fatal poisoning was rare amongst humans with infected microbes, tests did show their biochemistry was indeed altered to produce different hormones or toxic products. While such research was met with indifference within the Vishmital Empire, their enemies actively sort to use this information to develop an airborne virus that specifically targets symbiotic bacteria in the human digestive system. The aim was to alter the bacteria to produce a specific hormones that would negatively interact with those produced by the Unity Implant thus causing a chemical imbalance within the victim's brain leading to conditions such as depression or even a mental shutdown. Much like the Unity Implant on its initial release, the main target would be infants and children who would be more susceptible to the affects of hormone induced imbalence. Unlike a virus that directly causes human casualties, such a weapon should be able to poliferate through a wide population due to both indirect and delay in symtoms. It was thought combined with the effects of the famine, such a weapon would help wipeout the Unity generation.

-Eventually however the Vishmitals would figure out they are under attack. Afterall despite the best efforts of clandestine operations it will be too hard to keep the fact their strategic agriculture worlds, and many others, were infected by one of their most feared weapons. Once they releaise what they are dealing with they would be able to act to stop any futher spread. Yet these biological attacks were only meant to buy time and weaken the Empire from within, hense these weapons are not designed to directly cause human casualties as such weapons are too easily discovered. We've all heard that if you put a frog into a pan of boiling water it will jump out on contact, but if you put a frog into a pan of cool water and slowly heat it up it will stay put until it is too late. That is the function of these biological weapons; if enough time was bought to ensure the main agri-worlds are irreversibly damanged it makes the fall of the Empire all the more quicker as their population starves. Of course once the cat is out of the bag you may as well reveal yourself, but not all at once. Even though their enemies bought themselves time to sthrengthen their physical forces and improve their fleet, they would not have enough time to assemble a force to rival the Vishmital fleet in size and possibily quality. (Developing and weaponising a virus is one thing, building the space/future equivalent of a super carrier or nuclear powered attack and/or boomer submarine is something else.) Thus you should divide and conquer, split and draw out their fleet and attack on your terms. The Vishmitals were on edge given the bioweapons attacks, efforts were being made to limit their impact, but the situation was fast becoming out of control as space bound relief efforts came under attack. So many relief ships were required and with hundreds of systems reporting enemy sightings, thus the very real risk of the virus being used on said system's planets, the Vishmital Navy was spread thin. Escorts for and the relief ships themselves were prime targets for the enemy's hit and run raids, each loss keenly flet. Soon outer worlds became isolated or abandoned, as the as number of available targets droped the raiding fleets were able to grow in size and capability; the war had now entered the conventional stage.

Exodus: The intended famine caused a sharpe decline in the Vishmital population, at this point many of the citizenry had Unity Implants, ensuring that despite the carnage society did not fall apart. If anything they worked harder to survive, even if their children and even some adults were being mentally crippled while even larger numbers starved to death. The enemy became more liberal with their use of the agri virus if they got the chance; rather than the careful deployment as done previosly, full scale bombardments were used. Even when the Vismitals deployed the weapon as a means of terror it was not done so recklessly; heavily hit regions could see a near total loss of plantlife in weeks. With contaminated areas at such concentration levels, a planet's ecosystem could die off in a couple of years. Yet in the years previous to the war, around the same time as the first generation of infants born with the Unity Implant, the Empire made great strides in its next phase of planned expansion. Dismissed as propaganda by their enemies, the Vishmitals had successfuly launched missions to other dimensions, whoes own univurse proved to be remarkably similar, many even having habital worlds and native populations. Perhaps it was due to this expansion getting under way which resulted in a slow responce to the cataclysm that was to unfold, though the degrees of success of enemy clandestine operations cannot be overlooked or fully varified. However this newest expansion would prove to the the Empire's salvation of sorts. The loss of two key shipyards and adjacent mining worlds was a major strategic blow for the Vismitals, one of which even fell into enemy hands. There was not the resources to mount a counter attack to reclaim the shipyard, thus leaving the hulls under going construction and refit to be used against their fromer owners. With the new found ability to field vessels on equal footing as the Vishmital's own front line warships, their enemy could now directly threatern the Core Worlds, the very heart of the Empire. Trying to hold an ever increasingly thin line was a losing strategy, with many of their colony ships already beginning a new wave of exploration and expansion orders were given for them to continue and never return. Evacuations were launched where possible, using their dimensional technology to flee where their enemy could not follow, or so they hoped. The Vishmital Empire hat been crippled, many of its former worlds were either dead or slowly dying; the survivors scattered into the multivurse.

As I'm not really active on the forums, if you wish to give feedback best contact me directly. Ultimately this is just an idea of how the Empire fell and can be used in whatever way you see fit; if you feel it doesn't work so be it, if it does, awesome.

It's a really interesting take on the Vishmital war, good job^^
I like how you tied directly the implant to it. It makes a lot of sense and it creates a very interesting, dynamic and ambiguous relation between the loyalists and the rebels as both projects can be seen as monstrous in their essence : The zealot rebels wanting to commit genocide to get rid of the "infected" generation, and those who want to remove the freedom of an entire civilization to better rule over it. For sure you can't really paint a black and white picture here.
I don't really think thinking about the means of the genocide is very important though, as such an advanced civilization would have no doubt a lot of means at its disposal to destroy itself. Moreover, just a division in an overextended empire could means its quick end with hundreds of wars raging on each planets for its control by either rebels or loyalists. That would just create endless chain reactions with suddenly worlds declaring their independence as they were conquered not long ago, and various factions plunging into the fray to get their piece of the cake. Great Empires can rise quickly and steadily but they generally falls and disintegrate even faster once they start to decline.

Also I think Vishmitals would really try hard to keep a significant presence in Negav. Sure they could move out far away and start from zero but that would be hugely hazardous. Whereas retaining Negav offers a solid and secure infrastructure already, a strategic position and access to others worlds.

My main issue with your idea, Caul, is that I saw the genetic modifications as going back significantly further; given the size of the Vishmital empire, I was working off the idea that the unity traits would be needed far before it reached its zenith, and, from a writing perspective, it does make one of the more iconic parts of the Vishmitals rather new. It does also put the unity implant (can we come up with a better term than 'implant', given that it's something they're born with?) as something of a secret, at least in the beginning. Additionally, and I understand I'm sort of biased here because of my own idea for the genetic modifications, the deployment of it via conspiracy would put some pretty stringent limits on the effects. Personally, I don't see 'loyalty to the Vishmital Empire' as something that can be genetically engineered directly; hence my suggestion of a more complex system involving us/them mentality and minor cues, including psionic ones, to better control how others are placed in those groupings. It's specifically the second part that would make keeping it secretive prohibitive. I know she hasn't posted in quite a while, but I believe Vix's original idea was that the fall of the Vishmital empire was caused by external means, not internal ones.

As for more minor nitpicks:

• I don't see the Vishmital having made use of nuclear weapons since before the formation of the empire. High-power lasers from orbit work just as well, don't leave fallout, and are a lot cheaper and more plentiful.
  
• Given the size of the Vishmital empire, I figure they have to make use of some degree of hydroponics. I personally see the empire as being composed of a decently large number of habitable worlds and probably a dozen times as many outposts on desolate moons or gas giants for mining purposes. Those outposts would need food and oxygen, and hydroponics solve both.
  
• Given that the Vishmitals created the bioweapon in the first place, you'd think they'd have noticed its secretions in routine soil tests.
  
• I'm not sure on asteroids as delivery mechanisms; for that to work, the bioweapon needs to be sealed inside something that has to survive reentry, and therefore can get noticed relatively easily.

My Thoughts on the Vishies demise as told by Cauldron:

Good. I like the trigger being a grasp for loyalty and power in fact ironically leads to the Empire splitting into pieces and then dissolving in all but name by the end of the tale. However I find it droll in the middle. Needs to be more clipped and pacing issues worked out. Wouldn't hurt to add to some historical protagonists to help us remember, like how the fall of Negav is portrayed by the Naga Chani and the Neko King Kerumi as the central figures.

But other than that? It's good. A nice solid beginning for why the Empire is no more and how the Vishies found Felarya thinking it was a paradise after many years of famine and feel for a verdant trap.

I am curious though the whole thing reads a bit like a history lesson and made me think of bing a young student at the Isolon University sitting there looking bored wanting the teach to talk more about how Psi'ol and Vishies lobbed fire balls and plasma grenades back and forth. XD Then I wondered how much of their knowledge to Vishies let out of their district?

Well in the coming days I'm going to try and do that concept page about Vishmitals First about their outfits and then I'll try on the vehicles, using some of your ideas in this thread.

Karbo wrote:

Well in the coming days I'm going to try and do that concept page about Vishmitals  First about their outfits and then I'll try on the vehicles, using some of your ideas in this thread.

Awesome! Shame Ravaging Vixens can't be here to see this cause of her black ops mission. =/ Somebody should tell her all the developments while she's offworld fighting aliens what don't exist.

Karbo wrote:

Well in the coming days I'm going to try and do that concept page about Vishmitals  First about their outfits and then I'll try on the vehicles, using some of your ideas in this thread.

Looking forward to it. Can't wait to try adapting the outfits to the Ha'zein.

Gamma wrote:

Karbo wrote:

Well in the coming days I'm going to try and do that concept page about Vishmitals  First about their outfits and then I'll try on the vehicles, using some of your ideas in this thread.

Looking forward to it.  Can't wait to try adapting the outfits to the Ha'zein.

The who's it what's its? o.O I don't recognize the term "Ha'zein."

jedi-explorer wrote:

The who's it what's its? o.O I don't recognize the term "Ha'zein."

One of the founding races of the Vishmital Empire that Blue came up with.  They're on the concept document.

EDIT: So, since it's been mentioned in the Felaryan calendar thread, the Vishmital obviously have their own calendar. I'm wondering what it would be like; I think they would, by now, use a calendar that doesn't match any planet, since as an intergalactic empire they'd need a standard calendar for both a myriad variety of different planets and an order of magnitude more non-planet outposts (moon bases, asteroid bases, and deep-space stations).

Well I have been brain storming for the Vishmitals outfit, weapons ships and so :
http://sta.sh/06xgefkx9mb

It's not finished so there is no choices to make just yet. But once it's done I'll submit it so community members both from the forum and DA can tell their opinion and then we'll narrow it to a few choices in a new, more precise, page

I already like what I see. I eagerly await the finished result.

Those are sleek designs.

Wow, Nice work karbo, those designs are very close to what we were all interpreting, can't wait to see the rest!

Gamma wrote:

So, since it's been mentioned in the Felaryan calendar thread, the Vishmital obviously have their own calendar. I'm wondering what it would be like; I think they would, by now, use a calendar that doesn't match any planet, since as an intergalactic empire they'd need a standard calendar for both a myriad variety of different planets and an order of magnitude more non-planet outposts (moon bases, asteroid bases, and deep-space stations

I'll Have a friend of mine and I look more into what sci-fi calenders we can base a similarity off of for functioning empires.

Karbo wrote:

Well I have been brain storming for the Vishmitals outfit, weapons ships and so :
http://sta.sh/06xgefkx9mb

It's not finished so there is no choices to make just yet. But once it's done I'll submit it so community members both from the forum and DA can tell their opinion and then we'll narrow it to a few choices in a new, more precise, page

I love them all, but my favorites have to be the 2nd and 4th outfits at the top, and all the ones at the bottom

Love the designs! Thought I pictured more Overwatch-type spandex type dealios, but eh to each their own. As much as I think you were hard on yourself about those guns, seriously puts my best to shame, I think you should have drawn some Vishmitali and Vishmitaka as well as a combat knife or something with some Vishie markings.

Thank you, glad you like the page so far !

Here is the updated page ^^ I'll post it soon and ask in a poll what designs should be kept

That is blatantly stellar! So much detail on every little thing. Though I only see one female representative of the Vishmitals. Or are their garments meant to be unisex?

Awesome work. Any chance we could get it posted at full size when the poll goes up?

As for specific things, I like clothing designs 3 and 6 best, and I'm liking the more scalloped-looking, layered armor for the top-left helmet example; it's close to some of the Ha'zein designs Blue and I were kicking around. Not as much of a fan of the no-peripheral-vision pauldrons, especially on both sides (I could see them as practical on the off-shoulder on heavy assault troops). I also like the helmet and plating on the lower-right armor example, but I also like the cloth on the torso and hips of the lower-left armor example; any chance of plating under cloth? I think both of the face close-ups work, too, though I think the guy's eye-frame needs a more visible lense.

On the tech: for the guns, I like the more inset grip designs of the sniper rifle and the carbine directly above it, though I feel that they all could either use more obvious swappable batteries or power uplinks (perhaps both; I like the idea that you can take an assault rifle and plug in a bulky power backpack and cooling sleeve on the barrel to get a machine gun). I prefer the bottom hovertank; the top one looks a little too fragile, especially how the sloping goes all the way to the bottom of the chassis. Both have a barrel shorter than the front of the tank itself, which historically was a significant advantage in wooded areas. I'm not quite sure about a few things on the ships; I like the general shape language, but putting almost all the turrets on dorsal mounts strikes me as a bit odd. How are you envisioning the ships landing? Do they hover all the time, are their massive landing struts just well-hidden, or do they land like a rocket takes off, thruster-end-down? One thing I could see them doing is landing in water and floating like conventional naval ships...and the Vishmital blowing giant craters to make their own lakes to land in when needed. Another idea we had earlier is them having large external engine pylons that could rotate down as landing gear, sort of like the ship in Prometheus (another advantage is, if you'll excuse me geeking out, that actually turning such a large ship requires absurd amounts of torque, and small maneuvering thrusters would take forever to bring it about; main engines that could pivot are better, though they could also use reaction wheels easily enough). I'd really like to see top and end-on views of the ships, too; it looks like they're pretty cigar-shaped overall, but I see something that looks like pylons on the carrier. Do you have thoughts about what those clusters of light circles are? Also, for the one labeled as a planetary bomber, what kind of weapons do you see it using for said bombing? I see what looks like a cluster of cylinders on the underside; are those short, wide-bore laser cannons, or are they more conventional ordnance?

I apologize if I get too technical; I'm an engineer at heart (by trade, too). I've also been swept up by the recent resurgence in popularity of WWII naval warships and battles, which has left me thinking about ship design all too much.

Thank you  yes I'll post it in large size ^^  

Gamma : Thanks for the detailed and technical feedback
For the ships, mhh at first I didn't really think about landing at all as I imagined them being constantly in space and built there. But at least for the first two ( and smaller ones ) it makes sense they would be able to land. The Parachal ship definitely needs to have more turrets and the below part, it looks just odd as it is now.