My view on fairies

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

zelda31 wrote:

but there has to be a power beyond the ferlaryan guardians there is no such thing as a all powerful being there is always something more powerful

If you follow this logic, the powerfull being will be defeated by a more powerfull being who will be defeated by another more powerful being, it's endless.

This is not DBZ... Not everything goes out of its way to crush all foes weaker than it.

For instance, the power levels of the guardians are not exactly equal, and the last time a Guardian level being fought another, she was beaten badly, not because she was weakest, but because of the interconnections and alliances between the various Guardians.

Nothing physically existing in Felarya is more powerful than the highest Guardian, whichever that may be. But none of the Guardians want singular dominion. (Well, maybe Qaaz and Notys, since nobody knows their motives... But they don't seem to be taking over.)

Feign wrote:

This is not DBZ... Not everything goes out of its way to crush all foes weaker than it.

For instance, the power levels of the guardians are not exactly equal, and the last time a Guardian level being fought another, she was beaten badly, not because she was weakest, but because of the interconnections and alliances between the various Guardians.

Nothing physically existing in Felarya is more powerful than the highest Guardian, whichever that may be. But none of the Guardians want singular dominion. (Well, maybe Qaaz and Notys, since nobody knows their motives... But they don't seem to be taking over.)

The is part of the reason I really don't like thinking about the Guardians in "god" terms; it's convienent for some purposes, and woefully inadequate for others. They really just don't behave like "gods", so it seems highly likely that they are something else entirely.

I think it's more likely Guardians function on the same level as universal forces, rather than on the same level as "gods".

As I've said before, the concept that most closely (but still not exactly) fits Guardians in my eyes is the "Counter Force" concept of Kinoko Nasu's Type-Moon universe.

I was just saying there has to besomething more powerful than the guardians not that such a bieng goes out of it's to kill them but that can't possibly be the only god with infinite power there has to be at least a couple others who are just as powerful just to balance things out

zelda31 wrote:

I was just saying there has to besomething more powerful than the guardians not that such a bieng goes out of it's to kill them but that can't possibly be the only god with infinite power there has to be at least a couple others who are just as powerful just to balance things out

"Balance" does not exist on the scale you are thinking of, because the Guardians themselves function as a universal balancing mechanism for the 'Universe' of Felarya.

While in Felarya, operating under the rules of Felarya's Universe, that scale will always be tipped greatly in the Guardian's favor.

In a 'neutral' realm, operating under the rules of that universe, that scale will mostly balance out... perhaps leaning slightly or a lot more in one direction or the other.

While in the domain of another entity, operating under the rules of his/her universe, the scale will always be tipped greatly in the entity's favor... assuming that he or she is roughly equivalent to a Guardian in power, and not a minor being (Demigod, lesser god, low-level spirit, etc.)

This is because when dealing with these sorts of situations, you aren't neccessarily 'fighting' the power of the individual... you're fighting the power of the entire universe or plane. There are many cases in which balance does not exist on a small scale, only on a much larger scale.

A Polar Bear in the wild can not survive on land; they spend their entire lives on ice. Global warming poses a threat to them; if the ice in their environment breaks up or melts, they will become extinct. This is a highly imbalanced situation, from the Polar Bear's perspective; there is literally nothing they can do that will ensure their survival- and anyone who says "they can evolve" gets a smack upside the head. The chances of them managing to evolve the precise combination of physical and mental traits they require to be able to survive on land before they become extinct are so astronomical that it might as well be non-existant.

Many biologists and naturalists acknowledge the fact that we're going to see Polar Bears go extinct within the next 50 to 80 years, if their specific environmental conditions do not change. True story.

Feign wrote:

]This is not DBZ... Not everything goes out of its way to crush all foes weaker than it.

This kind of logic do not apply in DBZ it applies to many shonen manga and the leveling system in many RPG, each time you have experience you becomes stronger etc...
I do not refer only to DBZ which are very classical.

I was refereeing to the balance of good and evil

zelda31 wrote:

I was refereeing to the balance of good and evil

There is no "balance of good and evil", except in the context of the highest level of the Universe (all of Creation).

There may be a balance of good and evil within a city or state, as determined by the properties of the individuals that comprise the city or state.
There may be a balance of good and evil within a country, as determined by the properties of the cities or states that comprise the country.
There may be a balance of good and evil within an entire world, as determined by the properties of the countries that comprise the world.
There may be a balance of good and evil within an entire universe, as determined by the properties of the worlds that comprise the universe.
There may be a balance of good and evil within an entire multiverse/universal array, as determined by the properties of the universes that comprise the multiverse/array.
There is a balance of good and evil within all of creation, as determined by the properties of the aspects that comprise creation.

There are possibly entire worlds where Evil is not the underdog, and Good doesn't always triumph. In this case, there is no balance between Good and Evil" on that world... or to be more precise, there is an uneven balance between good and evil. It may someday be reversed, or reach an equilibrium, or Evil might rule the world for the rest of that world's natural existence. All of these situations are equally possible, which means that there may never be an even balance between good and evil on that world.

However, if that is the case then somewhere in "All of Creation", there is a world where Good is not the underdog, and Evil rarely triumphs.

There is your balance. Each world sits on one side of the scale, and the total 'mass' of their Good/Evil balances out against one another.

I give up again at this rate I'll never win a argument on this site

zelda31 wrote:

I give up again at this rate I'll never win a argument on this site

I'm not thinking about them as arguments, just discussions.

If you don't mind me saying, the problem with a lot of the points you make is that you are often focusing on the wrong scale: You are either looking at the entire forest, and missing the trees; or you look at the trees and miss the forest. You have to learn to see them both, and when the distinction between "a bunch of trees" and "a forest" is important.

The typical image of Hell is is a place where Demons and 'evil' beings rule, but that isn't always what Hell is. The same applies for Heaven. As an example...

In Acheron, Queen Arsinoë may very well be the single most powerful being existing in the entire plane. If you are attempting to fight her by yourself, and totally getting your ass kicked, it would seem to be completely imbalanced. You just don't have a very good chance of winning at all, maybe even close to "zero".

The way to avoid this is not neccessarily by being so powerful that you can walk into Arsinoë's house and start kicking her around; for most beings in all of Creation, that simply just is not an option. Because you are fighting her where she will always be at her most powerful, and you probably will not be as powerful as you are somewhere else.

If Arsinoë strolls through the pearly gates of Heaven to take lunch money from that Archangel she beat up last week in Acheron, it is going to be her ass getting kicked. A really powerful Demon might be able to make it part of the way into Heaven and back out again alive, but they'll probably be counting every step in hopes of setting a new record and proving their strength. Because they're on the Angel's territory, where they will always be stronger than they are anywhere else.

While a rookie Guardian Angel or minor unintelligent angelic being isn't suddenly going to skyrocket in power to the point that they can crush someone like Arsinoë effortlessly, mid-tier Angels who she might be able to easily defeat in Hell or even on neutral ground like Felarya... are going to take much more time and effort to defeat.

The upper-tier of the Angelic heirarchy may even be able to fight against Arsinoë as though they were equals, despite the fact that a fight on Felarya might result in her certain victory (after a long fight). Any Archangel, however... If fighting even a rookie, newly-fledged Archangel in Heaven, Arsinoë will come to understand how people picking a fight with her in Acheron must feel. She is just not going to stand any chance of winning that fight at all, unless some exceptional mitigating external circumstances are involved (a sudden plane shift to neutral ground, or even better, somewhere that she has an advantage).

That is how things are "balanced", in my opinion; not on terms of a local, global, or even planar scale... but on a universal one. This is why you just can't beat the Guardians in their own home (Felarya); if it was possible, they would be entirely ineffective as a balancing mechanism. Felarya would require something else, to maintain equilibrium in the peculiar state that it exists in.

But it is extremely possible that there are, or have been, more Guardians than we know about. It is even extremely possible that some of them have been killed or destroyed! However, if that did occur, it is impossible for it to have happened on Felarya. The system just would not be able to function if that was the case.

ok I am calling dbz here certain beings like goku for example are very powerful no matter where they are because that power isn't based on environment like the power of the guardians for further example the flaw of that system is it's based more on the playing field not the personal ability of the baings see where I am coming from with this

zelda31 wrote:

ok I am calling dbz here certain beings like goku for example are very powerful no matter where they are because that power isn't based on environment like the power of the guardians for further example the flaw of that system is it's based more on the playing field not the personal ability of the baings see where I am coming from with this

Okay, yes, I do see where you are coming from. But I have to disagree with you; not because "you're just wrong" or anything like that, but because I think I might be able to point out something you may not have considered.

Using your example, Goku is definitely a very powerful being who has a high level of personal power. I fully agree with you on that point, and I am not a DBZ fan.

However, I disagree that his power is not based on his environment, and that the system I described earlier is based solely on the playing field and not the personal ability of the beings. I'm not disagreeing with you just to be contrary, but because I think we're looking at the same picture and drawing two different points, and the one you've got isn't neccessarily the one I was trying to get across.

Goku is a very powerful being who has a high level of personal power... that has been shown to be entirely meaningless in certain situations. Sure, by the later parts of DBZ, he was doing all sorts of amazing things and blowing through many opponents as though they were paper... but he always encountered an enemy or situation where his power was just not enough, and he was defeated and even killed several times.

Yes, he came back even more powerful than before, and was then able to get the job done... but even after that point, he would continue to run into opponents he just could not defeat, until he became more powerful and gained the ability to overcome them.

(I'm going to break here and continue into another post, please let me finish so you can read and then comment on the whole thing )

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

zelda31 wrote:

ok I am calling dbz here certain beings like goku for example are very powerful no matter where they are because that power isn't based on environment like the power of the guardians for further example the flaw of that system is it's based more on the playing field not the personal ability of the baings see where I am coming from with this

Okay, yes, I do see where you are coming from. But I have to disagree with you; not because "you're just wrong" or anything like that, but because I think I might be able to point out something you may not have considered.

Using your example, Goku is definitely a very powerful being who has a high level of personal power. I fully agree with you on that point, and I am not a DBZ fan.

However, I disagree that his power is not based on his environment, and that the system I described earlier is based solely on the playing field and not the personal ability of the beings. I'm not disagreeing with you just to be contrary, but because I think we're looking at the same picture and drawing two different points, and the one you've got isn't neccessarily the one I was trying to get across.

Goku is a very powerful being who has a high level of personal power... that has been shown to be entirely meaningless in certain situations. Sure, by the later parts of DBZ, he was doing all sorts of amazing things and blowing through many opponents as though they were paper... but he always encountered an enemy or situation where his power was just not enough, and he was defeated and even killed several times.

Yes, he came back even more powerful than before, and was then able to get the job done... but even after that point, he would continue to run into opponents he just could not defeat, until he became more powerful and gained the ability to overcome them.

(I'm going to break here and continue into another post, please let me finish so you can read and then comment on the whole thing )

Don't forget the spirit bomb, with that he used other peoples power instead of his own.

Kinoko Nasu, the artist primarily responsible for Type-Moon's works (Fate/Stay Night, Shingetsusan Tsukihime, Kara no Kyoukai), is someone whose ideas I reference a lot. I have a great deal of respect for his ability to create a cohesive world that allows for infinite possibilities, yet also explains how practically everything works in a way that makes sense. His fans come up with numerous theories about what would happen in any possible situation if people from one of his works met people from another (since they all exist in the same world, but have very little interaction between each other), yet pretty much anything that possibly can be explained is explained at some point.

One of his many concepts that I love is the "Counter Force". Simply put, a Counter Force is a universal force that exists to maintain balance... but only in one direction. It is like a swinging pendulum; as soon as an event occurs which requires a Counter Force to take action, it immediately moves to counteract that event.

There are different ways in which a Counter Force can do so (each behaves differently), but a unique trait of Counter Forces is that they exist to do one thing, and don't care about anything but that one thing. Another unique trait is that because they are a universal force, and not an actual entity or god, the only thing that can truly counteract a Counter Force is another Counter Force- the power level of a Counter Force is always "enough to get the job done".

Because of this, Counter Forces can be considered insanely unbalanced in one direction, but precisely balanced in relation to one another; two Counter Forces moving in opposing directions will balance out to zero. This is because the power of each is always "whatever it takes to do the job", meaning that they both have unlimited power and reach a perfect stalemate, cancelling one another out.

There is no single being in existence powerful enough to defeat a Counter Force, and there never will be- Counter Forces are an inherent component of Creation, and the only thing that exists beyond them is the entity that created them (The God of All Creation, if he exists). Despite this insane amount of power, Counter Forces are balanced by virtue of the fact that they can negate one another, and they simply don't care about anything other than fulfilling their purpose- a Counter Force will never attempt to take over the world, for example. It is just not the function they exist for.

There are two Counter Forces that really get addressed in Nasu's works: they draw from two distinct sources Alaya, and Gaia.

Alaya is the "unconscious, universal will of humans to live"; in effect, Alaya is the universal wish of Humanity to avoid its own destruction, even if it means destroying their environment to survive. The Counter Force of Alaya is called "The Beast of Alaya", and its purpose is to defeat anything harmful targetting Humanity as a whole. The Beast of Alaya works indirectly, rather than taking direct action; it operates by boosting the power of those it chooses (a particular person, or particular group of people) until they are capable of defeating a particular threat.

Someone who makes a contract with Alaya (is chosen by the Beast of Alaya) receives power that goes far beyond the usual standard of humanity, becoming a "Hero". However, after his or her death, that person is eternally "bound" to Alaya, and becomes what is called "Counter Guardian" for all eternity. A Counter Guardian themselves are manifestations of the Beast of Alaya, and exist purely to defend Humanity from destruction, no matter the cause- if it is Humans that are threatening to cause their own destruction, a Counter Guardian will destroy all the ones responsible just as readily as they would an external threat, for the sake of saving the rest of Humanity. Even a chosen Hero will become their target, should that Hero stray Alaya's course.

Gaia is not the world itself, in the Type-Moon universe; instead, it is the "Unconscious Will of the World". Gaia is what Nasu calls an Aristotles, the "Ultimate One" representing the existence of a world (all of the planets have one, they are also called 'Types'). Everything that exists on the Earth is part of Gaia, however, their interests do not always coincide. Gaia represents the universal wish of the Earth to avoid its own destruction, even if it means destroying a particular species or even all life on it (and starting anew).

The Counter Force of Gaia is called "The Beast of Gaia", also known as "Primate Murder" by humans. Despite its nickname, Primate Murder actually does not care at all about humans- it only moves when an external or internal factor threatens the Earth with destruction or serious harm. As long as the world is safe, it doesn't care what happens to Humans... but if humans are the ones destroying the world, The Beast of Gaia will take action to destroy those responsible, even if it means wiping out the entire species. Unlike the Beast of Alaya, Primate Murder will act directly instead of through an intermediate being; it can take the form of natural disasters, or a manifested entity in almost any form- it depends on the situation and what is required to resolve it.

(Just a bit more to come... although by now you probably see where I'm headed with this.. )

In these terms, Goku can be considered to be the "Hero" chosen by a Counter Force that acts in a similiar manner to the Beast of Alaya; in his earliest appearances, he was very weak compared to his later ones. But every time he was defeated, he came back more powerful than before, handling progressively stronger and more powerful threats to the existence of the world, and then other planets, and eventually even the Universe.

Sometimes it took the form of training in the spirit realm, or under increasingly heavier gravities, or just developing his chi powers further, but the point is, there was always an environmental factor involved in Goku's successes. And just like vegeta002 mentioned:

Quote :

Don't forget the spirit bomb, with that he used other peoples power instead of his own.

He would sometimes call on the "spiritual power" of other people (his friends and even strangers), or an entire planet, or even all living things in the Universe!

IIRC, even in his later appearances (when he was a ghost and competing in those tournaments or whatever among champions from different galaxies), he was recognized as being something like a Guardian for the universe. In this sense, Goku is like a Counter Guardian, before, during, and after death... functioning as a Hero chosen by the Counter Force of his entire Universe to prevent it from destruction.

So, you're not wrong about him, but the point I'm trying to make is that he is operating on a completely different scale than a being like most Gods, Angels, Demons, or Spirits.

If we apply this concept to the Guardians, noting that each one whom we know of is a member of a different species, it might be helpful to imagine the following as being the case why a Guardian can never be defeated in Felarya:

Each Guardian is chosen by the Counter Force or IS the Counter Force that represents the Universal Will of their species to exist on Felarya, at any cost. If anything (either an external factor from outside Felarya, or an internal factor on Felarya) threatens the existence of that species as a whole, they will immediately take action to destroy it, with whatever power is neccessary to accomplish that task.

If their own species becomes too powerful, and is in a position to conquer or destroy Felarya, the other Counter Forces would combine their strength to utterly wipe out that species... which means that any race that expands too greatly is will eventually become a threat to Felarya's existence and the existence of other species.

So, to prevent that from happening, it is well within reason that a Guardian might even target their own species in some cases, to avoid that situation from arising. So, if Negav expands too much like Ur-Sagol did, it may be Mercreti that moves to destroy the factor responsible, instead of Quaz or Notys.

The Guardians can be considered as having absolute power within the "Domain" of Felarya, but the only thing they really care about is what they exist to do. Stuff going on in places other than Felarya, explorers coming in and out, and even would-be world conquerors don't concern them until it becomes neccessary for them to move to counteract something. The only thing which exists that is more powerful than a Guardian in Felarya, and only in Felarya, would be an entity responsible for overseeing the entire "Universe" of Felarya, and/or an entity responsible for overseeing All of Creation... but as long as the Guardians are fulfilling their purpose, there is really no point in either of the above getting involved; the Guardians are a natural system that is "working as intended", thus fulfilling the will of their creators.

... Am I making sense, here? As you might be able to tell, I've been giving this a lot of thought lately.

Edit: Oh, I am done now. Feel free to weigh in with your thoughts.

ok so there is no way to destroy them fair enough but there is no entities that are completely immune to corruption (what do you know of the metroid series before I go any further with this )

zelda31 wrote:

ok so there is no way to destroy them fair enough but there is no entities that are completely immune to corruption (what do you know of the metroid series before I go any further with this )

This is definitely true. But because of the laws of balance by which Counter Forces have to operate, if that situation arises and... say, Quaz, goes completely out of control, all the other Guardians would join together to stop him. Or, whatever entity that oversees the Guardians (The Will of Felarya, or whatever) would step in and deal with the matter itself. Since its existence is clearly higher than that of the Guardians while in Felarya, that entity would be able to stop him.

Of course, it probably would never reach that point, unless Quaz somehow managed to defeat all four of the other Guardians that we know about, which is unlikely. Unlimited Power x4 > Unlimited Power x1.

In Tsukihime, Nasu actually presented a situation where the Counter Force of Earth went berserk, and was subdued by the combined efforts of 7 Counter Guardians, rather than another actual Counter Force.

For a situation involving corrupting the Guardians actually reaching the point of threatening Felarya's existence, it would only be possible in the event that there aren't any other Guardians that we know about, and no way for Felarya to create more Guardians if a crisis demands it. And considering that we don't even know how one becomes a Guardian, and probably never will (somehow, I don't think Karbo is going to set anything in stone regarding them ), that is not a safe assumption to make.

In fact, the only safe assumption is that the Guardians can't be defeated while on Felarya... because otherwise, the Felarya we know would not be possible and just become a planet full of humans, or nagas, or fairies, or whichever species eventually 'won'. And who wants to see that, really?

zelda31 wrote:

ok so there is no way to destroy them fair enough but there is no entities that are completely immune to corruption (what do you know of the metroid series before I go any further with this )

That's why there isn't one but many guardians

The guardians are here to balance the system even against another guradians.

And seriously this kind of concept is very classical, the protector of the world becomes a destroyer is a cliche in high fantasy.
So I think the guardians are beyond that because they are good or evil they are just here to balance the force.
Look Mercreti is a human and Trejal a naga, Nemyra Queen of the fairies and Quaz king of the scorpion.
And Notys a neutral element.

The humans are eaten by the naga Mercretti my act to help them but Trejal may interfere.

Insect and fairies don't mix better so you can imagine the relationship between Quaz and Nemyra are not very good.

You can say Notys can be a problem but she can be counter by the other guardians.

So a guardian can be countered by another guardian adding another system thinking it will balance the situation it's a worst idea.

Because the guardian are here balance the world so a counter balance will unbalance the world, and Felarya is enough unstable or become classical fantasy world with two factions which divides the world in two.

I understand now what do you think and I would suggest you stop to imagine Felarya as a High Fantasy world with the good on a side and the bad with another side.

The guardians are different force who can team up or oppose to themselves if necessary, they are not the god or the protectors of the world they are here to maintain a balance between each force in Felarya.

You can do as you want in Felarya until you didn't threat the balance of the world. You may kill a naga because she threat your life is ok but if you want to exterminate all the naga races. You have chance to draw the attention of the guardians.

The reason why the humans fear the guardians is because all their action even if they are good or evil tend to threat the balance of the world.

Tha balance of Felarya is not the balance of the world as the humans saw it, that's why the guardians are not understand by the humans.

A balanced world for the humans is a system where the humans are the dominant specie and they control evererything, but it's not a balanced world for the other species like nagas, fairies or other intelligent race.

A balanced world is where each race lives is own life without trying to dominate the others

I was talking about corrupting all the guardians at once and there is such a thing that can, but I need to know how carefully I need to be in order to properly explain it and for that I need to know how much you about metroid series before taking a whack at how it can be done

zelda31 wrote:

I was talking about corrupting all the guardians at once and there is such a thing that can, but I need to know how carefully I need to be in order to properly explain it and for that I need to know how much you about metroid series before taking a whack at how it can be done

One or all the guardians may be corrupted there will always have a guardian or many to stop them.

The exact numbers of guardians is inknown, in clear it can have guardian who are unknown for the other or guardians who don't know they are guardians.

The problem is guardian exists to balance Felarya they may be good, evil, honest, corrupted or whatever you want but until they do their task who is to balance Felarya is not a problem.

It's like the ying and the yang, if there is a corrupted guardians there will be an incorruptible guardians. Another point if the guardians are corrupted can you corrupt them or How do you know they are corrupted And the fact they are corrupted in your opinion doesn't mean they are corrupted

The system which balance a system is at the same time good and evil, you can not corrupted them because they are the conrupter, you can not purify them because they are the purifier. They are both manipulate the two face of a same system. As Quantum said a system is balanced until the addition of the two side are equal. So if the guardians have to be corrupted to balance Felarya they will be corrupted if they have to be inccoruptible they will be incorruptible.

The better way to be immune to something is to be corrupted by this thing

It's not like the demons and the angels who are two different face of the same system, the balance is born dfrom their opposition. For the case of the guardians is different they are both friend and foe for each others

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, I'm sorry but it's a no-limits Fallacy you're working on.

Not quite so bad as the BS "God can't kill Zerg Cerebrate because it doesn't use Dark Templar Energies" argument, but still poor.

Also, back to Faeries here! Only one of the Guardians is a Faerie, and right now we ain't giving an opinion of it. If you want to continue the debate, perhaps move it to the Debate Thread made almost specifically for moments like these?

Malahite wrote:

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, I'm sorry but it's a no-limits Fallacy you're working on.

Not quite so bad as the BS "God can't kill Zerg Cerebrate because it doesn't use Dark Templar Energies" argument, but still poor.

Also, back to Faeries here! Only one of the Guardians is a Faerie, and right now we ain't giving an opinion of it. If you want to continue the debate, perhaps move it to the Debate Thread made almost specifically for moments like these?

Are you talking about me

[quote="gwadahunter2222"]

Malahite wrote:

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, I'm sorry but it's a no-limits Fallacy you're working on.

The No-Limit thing was to the Metroid creature to be used, and the whole "Debate Thread" thing applies to the the continued Guardians debate.

I see it like to debate on true size of the infinite.

well where is the guardians debate because honestly I have no clue as to where to even start looking