My view on fairies

zelda31 wrote:

well where is the guardians debate because honestly I have no clue as to where to even start looking

It isn't specifically for Guardians, but [URL+https://felarya.forumotion.com/forum-suggestion-f7/debate-topic-t97.htm]here[/URL] is the Debate Thread.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Also, predator and prey species which have co-evolved typically share an interesting relationship.

The predator is specialized in catching/killing that particular type of prey, and much more inefficient when it comes to hunting other prey. Its highest success rate for kills will always be that prey species.

The prey is specialized in evading/hiding itself from/fighting off that particular type of predator, and is much easier for other species of predators to catch and kill. Its highest success rate for survival/escape will always be against that predator species.

... Do you see the contradiction? The predator is better at killing that prey, while the prey is better at surviving that predator. It reaches a sort of equilibrium, where each has a roughly 50/50 chance of "winning" an encounter.

The main reason that this is important, and so widespread in the animal kingdom, is because although predatory species who are generalists instead of specialists have a much wider viable range of food... but typically, 90% of all their hunts end in failure. If they didn't have that much larger food supply, they would die. Essentially, a generalist has to work much harder at surviving than a specialist, for whom the biggest concern is finding a steady source of the particular type of prey they need.

I consider Fairies not to be generalists, so much as "omni-specialists"; with a fairy, it is literally impossible to know just what you will get... and just because something is true for one encounter, doesn't mean that it will be true for the next.

There's a bigger problem than all of this, in the fairy-human relationship.

Only on the Naxyan Dridder homeworld do humans accept their fate as food.

On Felarya, you have a hopping population of humans who are not only used to being the top of the food chain, but who are totally game for a major Darwinian King of the Hill evolutionary throw-down. Granted, most of them are foolish Dirk the Daring wannabe's with fairy nets with signs on their backs reading "Oh, Melany, come and get it!!!" but inevitably, with the technology of the Miratans and the magic and technology in Negav City, people are going to get sick and tired of hearing about someone being eaten by fairies.

One little thing about two apex predators moving into one eco-system, one will usually wipe out the other. You speak of predator and prey, well, fairies should be fearing and hiding from humans as much as vice-versa. Here's why.

The problem facing the fairies here is, yes, Alvar could survive someone blasting a fairy with <name your innovation here>, but how about the rest? Most fairies should, with certain things, drop dead on the spot. Also note that wearing Crimson Maiden armor should make you shrink-proof... if you can find said armor, reverse engineer it, and mass produce it. So one fairy with awesome sword skills cuts you down, fine. The rest of his species is dwindling down and the survivors learn a serious respect/fear of humans. And humans deal with Alvar-types with sniper rifles. Behold, the new monarch of the hill.

-or-

Fairies get tired of dying and start really going after humans to prevent threats against their own lives. Survival instinct and all that. Fairies hit hard, before humans can figure out how to innovate any further, and then it's friggin buffet dinner time.

This brings me to the Delurans. Where Felarya stands right now, actually it is fortunate for the Delurans that they're so unsuccessful against the fairies. If their weapons did not rust and they managed to bring a bunch of fairies down, reality dictates the fairies would inevitably hunt for, discover, and mass-attack their colony. All of the Delurans would wind up in some fairy's belly in the end.

What should have happened in any case, by now, is a fairy finds the Deluran underground colony, and groups of 3-inch fairies make routine trips into their city and devour people constantly. Right now, random Delurans should go to bed and wake up with the nasty surprise of going down some fairy's throat. Maybe that's why there are, according to the Wikii, so few of them?

Anyways, the Delurans represent the potential outcome of an apex predator showdown where the fairies win.

But with entities like Negav City around? Well now, humans become just as difficult to deal with as fairies. Suddenly the tables are turned - there's no sure fire way to survive an encounter with a human. And that's when humans are no longer looking up at fairies at the top of the hill.

This biggest problem with your line of reasoning is that it presumes the total cooperation and pooling of resources of several diverse groups of humans for no reason other than "The Greater Good of the Species". Not only that, but it presumes the above AND gaining extra advantages from other races (Crimson Maiden armor, mass-producing it- if it's even possible. It very may well not be; human ingenuity is only going to take you so far when you have no idea what the heck a substance is made out of or how to replicate it, despite what is convenient in fiction).

These reasons mean that the question is a moot point; that "Greater Good of the Species" thing hasn't worked real well for us (real life humans) over a few thousand years, and we're all from the same world. There is virtually no chance of all Humans on Felarya suddenly deciding to band together, even if many separate groups of them were on the verge of extinction. If the Miratans or Delurans were interested in playing with others, they would have done it by now; Humans on Felarya are not a single homogenous group, they're several diverse and fractured groups with their own goals... most of which do NOT coincide with one another.

What you described is just not likely to ever happen in Felarya, for the same reason people don't travel with entire armies and arsenals in their pockets; while it sounds like somewhat feasible on paper, when it comes time to execute several glaring issues become apparent.

And if, by some amazing fluke, you could get all Humans on Felarya to agree to work together, pool all their resources, magic, and technology, and somehow NOBODY decides to stab anybody else in the back and try to take it all for themselves... do you honestly think you're even going to get past the planning phase before the Guardians turn you into a memory?

I'm sure Ur-Sagol thought they were going to pull off something resembling that, during their heyday. And where are they now?

Raveolution wrote:

And humans deal with Alvar-types with sniper rifles.

Sniper rifles don't do you a whole lot of good against someone who can shrink down to 3 inches tall, fly around very fast, and not just has amazing sword skills but is just as adept with magic. You're better off trying an RPG or Recoilless Rifle; at least you have a better chance of getting him with the blast than you do of getting a direct hit on him with a sniper rifle.

Of course, the blast might not even hurt him, if he's using magic to defend himself... but I'd still take the RPG over a sniper rifle any day.

In addition, this is assuming you even see the Fairies coming, and survive long enough to go make friends with Negav or other magic users; a handful of Storm Sprites can completely wipe out an entire base/city of technologically-based humans. They don't, and we don't know why, but they definitely have the capability.

Humans can't work for the good of the species? Then what about the Allies vs Axis? What about the fact that we've prevented our own nuclear annihilation? We had plenty of backstabbing in the middle of that but so far in history only two nukes have ever been used on an enemy.

And Ur-Sagol may have been destroyed not for expanding, but because they found out something they shouldn't have.


And I'm highly interested in knowing why the Delurans haven't been all devoured by fairies yet...

Raveolution wrote:

Humans can't work for the good of the species? Then what about the Allies vs Axis? What about the fact that we've prevented our own nuclear annihilation? We had plenty of backstabbing in the middle of that but so far in history only two nukes have ever been used on an enemy.

Using World War II and the Cold War as examples of Humans working for the good of the species fails on so many levels, and completely ignores the sociopolitical realities of the times.

World War II is a particularly bad example, due to the complex causes behind it; America's entry into the war was not a matter of altruism by any means of the word. Sure, the end result was a fairly positive outcome, but we certainly didn't go in with guns ablaze for the good of the species, despite what Hollywood reenactments like to portray.

And the "plenty of backstabbing" you mentioned played a larger role in "preventing our own nuclear annihilation" than any mutual goodwill between the US and the Soviet Union did- there were people on both sides advocating nuking the other side first; and on the Soviet side, there were even plans for a coup by hard-liners with the intention of doing just that.

Where's our world unity and everyone banding together to work for the good of the species right now? Or anywhere in history- wars in general don't count; since the motivations for them are never purely a matter of the greater good. The answer is, it doesn't exist. We, as humans, have simply not matured to that level of mutual understanding.

And we are all humans from the same world, who at least could in theory have a common goal and understanding. Humans from several other worlds, who just happen to be tossed together into Felarya, with conflicting goals? Sorry, ain't ever going to happen. I'm sure some of the Delurans on Felarya might appreciate some help, as isolationist as they are... the same can't be said for their shadowy chain of command, who have their own goals and reasons for leaving them stranded on a hostile world.

Raveolution wrote:

And Ur-Sagol may have been destroyed not for expanding, but because they found out something they shouldn't have.

This is true; we don't know the true cause for Ur-Sagol's destruction. However, they were more or less on their way to "Top of the World, Ma!" at the time, and now there's little left of them except neat artifacts, lost magical knowledge, and ancient history.

Raveolution wrote:

And I'm highly interested in knowing why the Delurans haven't been all devoured by fairies yet...

You and me both. I suspect the Guardians may have something to do with it, but maybe not. Maybe the Fairies just don't want to exhaust their food supply, or something. Dunno.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Raveolution wrote:

Humans can't work for the good of the species? Then what about the Allies vs Axis? What about the fact that we've prevented our own nuclear annihilation? We had plenty of backstabbing in the middle of that but so far in history only two nukes have ever been used on an enemy.

Using World War II and the Cold War as examples of Humans working for the good of the species fails on so many levels, and completely ignores the sociopolitical realities of the times.

The sociopolitical realities of the times are, ultimately, people did not want to die via mass annihilation. As Sting sang, the Russians love their children, too. And greed itself would fuel the exact situation I was talking about - merchants want safe convoy routes. They would form guilds to study and out-evolve the fairies.

I'm surprised you feel the humans are so incompetent. That ain't the case. Hello, we are the apex species on Earth, are we not? We did come up from being food for lions and saber tooth marsupials. How did we rise above that?

On the other hand...

Quote :

You and me both. I suspect the Guardians may have something to do with it, but maybe not. Maybe the Fairies just don't want to exhaust their food supply, or something. Dunno.

Even if the fairies don't exhaust the food supply, They should at least raid the underground city now and then. I'm doubly surprised that no one has seen the Miratans and half again surprised no storm sprite has gone in there and wrought havoc. I mean, they're right underneath the roots of a few snow dryads!

The Delurans stand little to no chance at all, and the Miratans, unless they learn how to socialize with mages and psychics, are doomed to falll even harder.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Maybe the Fairies just don't want to exhaust their food supply, or something. Dunno.

I think it's the main reason after all it would be like killing the golden goose

Raveolution wrote:

Humans can't work for the good of the species? Then what about the Allies vs Axis?

The Russians were with the germans at the begin of the World War II but when Hitler betrayed them they joined the Allies.

The humans work mainly for their own interest, if they have no interest to team with you they will never do that. It's true in Felarya they have many creatures which preds humans but seriously every human knows his greatest predator is another human.

You can prepare yourself to face a naga or a fairy etc... but never he will be prepare to face another human.

When a human claims he is work for the good of the human races, the others humans will always be distrustfull against because they don't ask him anything. You want to create a great alliance with all the human peoples, if they say "no" they are very honest, if they say "yes" beware they have other plans. The problem you can not consider the human as a whole because you will never know what another thinks and even if you possess psychic powers

Raveolution wrote:

The sociopolitical realities of the times are, ultimately, people did not want to die via mass annihilation. As Sting sang, the Russians love their children, too.

Sure, why not.

Raveolution wrote:

And greed itself would fuel the exact situation I was talking about - merchants want safe convoy routes. They would form guilds to study and out-evolve the fairies.

Greed is rarely the basis for successful group cooperation, and typically leads to much screwing over of one's competitors- there's no reason to help your rivals, especially in the trade/business sense. The more trouble your competitors have, the better your chance of establishing yourself as an economic power.

Raveolution wrote:

I'm surprised you feel the humans are so incompetent. That ain't the case.

This is why debate with people who are "rabidly pro-human" or "rabidly anti-human" is usually pointless. I am pretty sure I didn't say that humans are incompetent. I do remember saying that humans are not really altruistic by nature, particularly when diverse groups of humans with conflicting goals and motivations are involved. That is precisely the case, whether you want to believe it or not; I don't expect you to take my word for it, though- there is more than enough evidence throughout human history to make the point stand on its own merits.

Humans unifying as a single group to accomplish a seemingly impossible task for the benefit of the entire species based purely on altruistic motives only exists in fiction. The fact that it has never happened in recorded human history among our own race is a fairly good indicator that it's unlikely to happen on Felarya, among several different races of humans, most of whom come from different worlds and have conflicting goals. How many human cultures are there on Felarya who came there to conquer the planet and/or exploit its resources? Now, tell me again why any one of them is going to cooperate with another group of the humans who has that same goal... some of whom they may have had skirmishes/aggressive encounters with? The Deluran higher-ups were happy to screw their own people over and leave them stranded on Felarya for their own nefarious purposes; do they really seem like they would make good allies to you?

I'll say it again; on Felarya, there is no one group of "Humans" that all share the same goals and motivations. There are a bunch of groups of Humans, many of whom don't care very much for certain other groups of Humans. Sort of shoots down most chances of cooperation for the good of the species, when people just aren't interested.

Raveolution wrote:

Hello, we are the apex species on Earth, are we not? We did come up from being food for lions and saber tooth marsupials. How did we rise above that?

Simple; by not having predators that are intelligent as we are to contend with. Comparing animals, even if they are pretty smart for animals and have complex hunting tactics, to sentient beings with the capacity to learn and invent, is a fallacious argument. If Lions had the the intelligence and manual dexterity to create and use weapons to kill us from a distance, it might be another matter. Comparing any Earth predator to a Fairy, Naga, or Dridder is pointless, and you know very well why. I'm wondering if you aren't just playing Devil's Advocate.

Raveolution wrote:

On the other hand...

Quote :

You and me both. I suspect the Guardians may have something to do with it, but maybe not. Maybe the Fairies just don't want to exhaust their food supply, or something. Dunno.

Even if the fairies don't exhaust the food supply, They should at least raid the underground city now and then. I'm doubly surprised that no one has seen the Miratans and half again surprised no storm sprite has gone in there and wrought havoc. I mean, they're right underneath the roots of a few snow dryads!

This is a very good point, and you are right. By now, it should have happened, just based on the raw probabilities involved. All it takes is one Fairy who decides to take a stroll in and grab some midnight snacks. Even if all the Fairies had some kind of agreement not to go charging into human bases, all it would take is one who changed his or her mind, or decided they really wanted to eat those particular humans, to mess things up.

The only explanation for it having not happened yet is that there's some reason for it; even so, there's no obvious mechanism preventing it. Maybe trying to wipe out humans makes Felarya just as cranky as humans trying to wipe out other species, or something?

Raveolution wrote:

The Delurans stand little to no chance at all, and the Miratans, unless they learn how to socialize with mages and psychics, are doomed to falll even harder.

In theory, you are completely right. In practice, despite the fact that it seems like Delurans must die by the score every day, they're still alive and 'well' on Felarya... and that's with them being stuck between Crisis and the Fairy Pond. Haven't really heard much regarding the Miratans, but they also have a large installation... and even a pred or two on their side, so they seem to be doing pretty well, too. Lacking mages and psychics is certainly going to doom any plans to conquer the world, but so far, it hasn't seemed to be that big a hinderance to success at just surviving.

hey i've just got and idea the humans get fed up of getting eaten and bring in heros from other dimensions, particularly ones with prophosies about them saving the world or that kind of things, the guardians wouldn't be able to intervene because it was mess other places up, and i'm talking about heros like swordman and bohan, ones that can take preds down by hemselves very easily, it would wipe a area of predators quite quickely

The Guardians only care about maintaining the Felaryan status quo, not another realms. You putting heroes from other realms in means you're just fething those places up. If the Guardians wanted to be real dicks, they could turn them into Voracious Predators for a bit before punting them back - that way - to their home realm as a warning to never do that again.

And what worlds are you thinking of where Heroes can take out large areas of Predators quickly? Only places I can think of right now are upper-tier anime characters, and some of the crazier Sci-Fi realms such as Hyperion (And trust me, giving The Shrike access to the Multiverse when he's trying to bait out Humanity's God by going on a universal genocidal campaign is a really bad idea).

Got a new more logical theory on the fairies size shifting ability it's the answer to this question. How come most dinosaurs are so large yet the weight of their own bodies don't crush them?

blademan9999 wrote:

hey i've just got and idea the humans get fed up of getting eaten and bring in heros from other dimensions, particularly ones with prophosies about them saving the world or that kind of things, the guardians wouldn't be able to intervene because it was mess other places up, and i'm talking about heros like swordman and bohan, ones that can take preds down by hemselves very easily, it would wipe a area of predators quite quickely

*Facepalm*

Because words are not enough...

zelda31 wrote:

Got a new more logical theory on the fairies size shifting ability it's the answer to this question. How come most dinosaurs are so large yet the weight of their own bodies don't crush them?

Because the structure of their bodies evolved as they grew to compensate for their weight.

Fairies on the other hand essentially have human bodies with insect wings, neither of which are meant to operate at 80 ft tall, in the real world at least.

Jætte_Troll wrote:

blademan9999 wrote:

hey i've just got and idea the humans get fed up of getting eaten and bring in heros from other dimensions, particularly ones with prophosies about them saving the world or that kind of things, the guardians wouldn't be able to intervene because it was mess other places up, and i'm talking about heros like swordman and bohan, ones that can take preds down by hemselves very easily, it would wipe a area of predators quite quickely

*Facepalm*

Because words are not enough...

Something like this?




Congrats cook, you made Batman facepalm.

ok I need to spell this out muscle and bone density were much higher than ours it's how the dinosaurs maintained a massive size without there organs being crushed by it's own weight so what if fairies subconsciously increased the density of there muscles and bones

We already have an explanation for how fairies and other predators maintain their great size without killing themselves. And it covers ALL the problems giant size would generate, not just weight.

Essentially, fairies warp the laws of physics in a manner that more or less means they don't change size so much as adjust their scaling relative to the universe around them. That is to say, their personal space treats them as though they're normal sized, even when they aren't.

Isn't that the point of magic; to warp and bend the laws of physics?

I am talking about something that is a lot easier to pull off I believe by altering the density of the muscles and bones you don't have to bend the laws of physics

Mass would have to be conserved, so a 100ft tall fairy would possess the same mass as a 3in tall fairy, meaning the giant fairy is stupidly light or the shrunken fairy is stupidly heavy. When it comes to fantasy worlds you can't always apply the laws of physics and science, although it is fun to do, it does make everything boring, a world with everything explained is a world without discovery and wonder.

Quote :

I am talking about something that is a lot easier to pull off I believe by altering the density of the muscles and bones you don't have to bend the laws of physics

1. Yes you do. Matter cannot be created or destroyed.

2. Weight isn't the only issue. A large animal would be incredibly slow because its brain impulses would take longer to reach its muscles. There's also the issue of retaining more heat.

The current theory we have is perfectly fine and addresses all concerns with a single explanation.

Flare wrote:

Jætte_Troll wrote:

blademan9999 wrote:

hey i've just got and idea the humans get fed up of getting eaten and bring in heros from other dimensions, particularly ones with prophosies about them saving the world or that kind of things, the guardians wouldn't be able to intervene because it was mess other places up, and i'm talking about heros like swordman and bohan, ones that can take preds down by hemselves very easily, it would wipe a area of predators quite quickely

*Facepalm*

Because words are not enough...

Something like this?




Congrats cook, you made Batman facepalm.

yesss!!!!! through complex schemming and planning, i managed to complete my real plan...... TO MAKE BATMAN FACEPALM!!!!!!

you just admited you are cook you dumbass.

you just admitted you are a dumbass, cook

blademan9999 wrote:

yesss!!!!! through complex schemming and planning, i managed to complete my real plan...... TO MAKE BATMAN FACEPALM!!!!!!

Your posts prove you are a douche and a troll cookeaw



And you sir are also a dumbass that must be banned

fine you win this debate for now but I'll refine my theory to cover all the problems of the size issue