Trade routes, paths, etc.

Yeah, this might make humans a bit too predictable for predators, and detract from the image of an untamed Felarya, but what do you think about having frequently used paths that have some form of shelter along the way or something like that? Should I even be concerned with something so apparently trivial? Maybe I should have posted this in the main idea discussion forum...

Well I don't think such routes would be very safe unless you don't have something like a death zone around it with heavy fire support which prevents predators from planning some mean ambushes. This routesystem is quite believable since it would make transports much easier than right through the jungle but you already mentioned it yourself: Preds would know where to find some food and await you there.

But still I think its a good Idea. People have to choose between the fast way on this path / street or the MAYBE safer one though the jungle. It would be interesting to see some (un-)armoured Convoy moving on the street, always in fear of getting attacked. I like that.

I was thinking of something like hidden checkpoints, like an underground inn, out of most preds' reach, where caravans could stop and take a breather, before continuing on their way. These would be few and far inbetween because of some areas being too dangerous or something like that.

Wherever there's a chance for the traders to make a big pay-off, there's bound to be at least some who risk it. Beyond which, I always imagined the more competent caravans being heavily armed and protected by hired thugs so as to make travel easier. Be it wall of pikes making the caravan a walking land urchin, mages lobbing fireballs at all who stand in the way, death seekers who tie up the threat while the caravan advances, there's several ways the caravans could protect themselves between the checkpoints.

However, I honestly doubt any one checkpoint would remain secret for long. Only a matter of time before someone tries to plea with their life with the info ("Wait, spare me and I can point you to DOZENS of unprepared others!"), a Predator stalks them to watch where they go, etc.

so true...

thats why they have to be armed...

You're right. Prehaps some deadly traps should alleviate that concern, or the entrance being just small enough for the convoys to get through, and to prevent preds from reaching through them... a giant beartrap-like device perhaps?

I like the idea, and I don't think it's too farfetched, even for an "untamed" world like Felarya. Like Malahite said, wherever there's the chance of a big payoff, people will take the risk. Not to mention, it would make a sort of "game trail" for predators to frequent.

Now, there could be a system of moving checkpoints, with some sort of code to say which one will be used when. Naturally, to reduce the risk of predators catching a random guy and said random guy trying to barter for his life, this code would only be given to caravan leaders.

My thoughts on the matter...

I think that it would vary a lot depending on the merchants/traders involved. To be honest, once someone figures out a marginally safe route, there is NO reason at all to tell their competitors about it. Altruism might be handy for group survival, but it's just not good business, even if the other guy is from the same species/nation/city as you.

I imagine there would be a lot of cloak and dagger stuff among traders, to try and find out the routes their competitors are using, so that they can either figure out how to steal them, sabotage them, or trade the information for their own benefit. If you think about it, corporate espionage on Felarya would take the meaning to a whole new level of ruthlessness, and might just involve assassins and private armies of mercenaries.

I'm sure there are some cultures that would use large, heavily defended caravans for transporting their goods... but I think the more successful traders would be the ones who use a distributed transport method. It's the same issue drug smugglers run into (not that I know personally); if you use one bulk shipment, you can move all of your product at once... but if anything happens to that shipment, you lose everything.

If you split up the shipment into smaller packages, it becomes easier to transport and hide, and you can send couriers along different routes and then have them meet up at a checkpoint or the final destination. That way, if you lose one or two couriers, at least you're not out a fortune. Things work pretty much the same way when you're dealing with routing infrastructure (the backbone of any computer network, including the internet).

I think the most successful Felaryan trading companies would probably have a number of routes with "safehouses" along them, and use several couriers carrying light packages. Maybe mounted on horses or other swift animals; they just make a run for the city, along a route chosen right before they depart, and hand off their package to the trader at the destination.

As far as trade routes, I think traders using multiple small couriers would probably use dynamic routes. That is, they have several "safe points" set up along the way, that are well-hidden and defensible. Rather than trying to get directly from Point A (the starting point) to Point Z (the ending point), the couriers just focus on making their way from safe point to safe point, until they're finally within a longshot of the destination.

This makes their routes fairly unpredictable, and minimizes the danger of a predator waiting around and watching where they go; if a courier decides to skip one or more safe points on their route, that predator could be waiting all day for a meal that never arrives. In addition, those safe points would have to be trapped or otherwise armed to deter predators, if a courier comes in with a pursuer hot on his tail.

Spring-loaded spears at the tunnel entrance or a porticullus-like structure to keep a predator's tongue at bay, a heavy metal door in the floor with a "cellar" that the courier can hide in to avoid being vacuumed out by wind magic, a light ballista to urge the predator to keep its face away from the entrance, etc. They should definitely contain food and emergency supplies, in case the courier winds up needing to wait the predator out.

One of the issues I notice a lot of people glossing over is the fact that Felarya is built on a macro scale; when you look at the map of the regions, the units in distance are as measured by the scale predators use. Just like in the real world, we measure distances in relation to the scale we exist on. "So what?," you ask.

When you walk down the street, or across an empty lot, or even in your backyard... do you ever stop to think about how many ants, gophers, field mice, birds, squirrels, and/or earthworms you pass along the way? The best defense human-sized creatures have against giant predators is that the predators are giants, and can't get into places the humans can.

Whether it's between tightly-linked tree branches, a "small" knothole in the wood, a crevisse in a boulder, or the equivalent of a gopher hole, there are billions of places on Felarya for a human or neko to hide that a predator never even notices until they have a reason to. Those are the kinds of places I imagine Felaryan traders making heavy use of, when transporting their goods.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

When you walk down the street, or across an empty lot, or even in your backyard... do you ever stop to think about how many ants, gophers, field mice, birds, squirrels, and/or earthworms you pass along the way? The best defense human-sized creatures have against giant predators is that the predators are giants, and can't get into places the humans can.

Whether it's between tightly-linked tree branches, a "small" knothole in the wood, a crevisse in a boulder, or the equivalent of a gopher hole, there are billions of places on Felarya for a human or neko to hide that a predator never even notices until they have a reason to. Those are the kinds of places I imagine Felaryan traders making heavy use of, when transporting their goods.

That's actually why I suggested the checkpoints be underground, but then again, burrowing predators are still a problem.
Also, the dynamic route idea is a good one.

observer88 wrote:

That's actually why I suggested the checkpoints be underground, but then again, burrowing predators are still a problem.
Also, the dynamic route idea is a good one.

Every checkpoint is going to have its strengths and weaknesses; it's impossible for any of them to be perfect and unbeatable. Underground checkpoints are fine; burrowing predators are only a problem if you happen to encounter one. As big a place as Felarya is, the potential is always there, but you're also just as likely to make it from start to finish without running into a burrowing predator along the way.

Also, thanks.

Nicely put again ^_^
I agree, if there is some routes, the discretion is the best way to go in my opinion

I love the idea, of course it may be necessary to abandon old checkpoints and make new ones as the predators learn the routes.

Karbo wrote:

Nicely put again ^_^
I agree, if there is some routes, the discretion is the best way to go in my opinion

Definitely. You've heard the saying "Discretion is the better part of Valor"? Well, on Felarya it goes more like, "Discretion is the better part of Survival."

S-Guy wrote:

I love the idea, of course it may be necessary to abandon old checkpoints and make new ones as the predators learn the routes.

Of course. Abandon them once they become unsafe... and/or maybe pass them off to competitors.

... Hey, Felarya business is cutthroat.

I'd say there is a high probability there are several running from Negav to The Gate at Ur-Sagol. The shear number of people seeking out the gate and those coming from it, would cause either intentional or unintentional (worn paths) to occur. makes sense that to avoid not only predators but thieves as well, merchants would agree upon something.... especially if they are in a guild or such back in the city.

the only real difference is that if they are connected to two fixed places, the trails could be varied and movable. perhaps the trade routs to and from the gate and the city could be agreed upon by variable. say by choosing the date as a key to some merchants guild guide... just throwing out some ideas^^

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

I think the most successful Felaryan trading companies would probably have a number of routes with "safehouses" along them, and use several couriers carrying light packages. Maybe mounted on horses or other swift animals; they just make a run for the city, along a route chosen right before they depart, and hand off their package to the trader at the destination.

Fast is good. Though for those more technologically inclined, they could use a light all-terrain vehicle like a motorbike, quad ATV or even a buggy. Hover-vehicles are also viable, especially when crossing the Akaptor Desert.

Also if business is cuttthroat, then competitors would be weary of accepting the offer of a checkpoint.

Which is why you don't offer it to them. You let them steal it, and make them work just hard enough at obtaining the information that they think they got away with something.

I'm thinking about guild system with secret codes knows by the members to try to travel safe.

There are a group of scout in charge to find new and safe path everyday and signs on for the caravan.
What do you think

It's classical but I don't have no better idea sorry.

Forget securing a route.

If I am managing the convoy, I'm going to rely on heavy firepower. Railguns. And if I can hire psykers from across the dimensional rift then I'll pay A-1 friggin top dollar.

In my opinion? In Felarya, you travel with the firepower to take out a Tonorion-Canopy Fairy hybrid waiting for you behind every tree, or you might as well travel naked with salt and pepper shakers.

Raveolution wrote:

Forget securing a route.

If I am managing the convoy, I'm going to rely on heavy firepower. Railguns. And if I can hire psykers from across the dimensional rift then I'll pay A-1 friggin top dollar.

In my opinion? In Felarya, you travel with the firepower to take out a Tonorion-Canopy Fairy hybrid waiting for you behind every tree, or you might as well travel naked with salt and pepper shakers.

The problems with "superior firepower" as an answer to everything are many.

First of all, you make a LOT of noise. You might as well be ringing a dinner bell.

Secondly, you can only carry so much ammo... if you're carrying a month's worth of ammo, exactly where are you going to put those tradeable goods that were the reason for you making the trip in the first place?

Third, you can only cover so many directions in a three-dimensional realm. Our minds are really only set up to think in two-dimensional terms; when we discuss creating a perimeter, we most commonly picture drawing a circle around us. In a place like Felarya, that simply isn't going to cut it, because threats can come from the sky as well as underground.

Fourth, you're particularly vulnerable to threats approaching from underground; not only can they approach undetected until they strike, but the ground provides an additional layer of defense for them. What are you going to do, blindly fire railgun rounds at the ground, and hope you hit something? Even a railgun round will only travel so far through a solid before it's slowed or deflected off course.

For so many reasons, extreme amounts of firepower is not a catch-all solution to every problem one enouncters on Felarya. Most of the time, you're better off using your brains than your guns.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Raveolution wrote:

Forget securing a route.

If I am managing the convoy, I'm going to rely on heavy firepower. Railguns. And if I can hire psykers from across the dimensional rift then I'll pay A-1 friggin top dollar.

In my opinion? In Felarya, you travel with the firepower to take out a Tonorion-Canopy Fairy hybrid waiting for you behind every tree, or you might as well travel naked with salt and pepper shakers.

The problems with "superior firepower" as an answer to everything are many.

First of all, you make a LOT of noise. You might as well be ringing a dinner bell.

Secondly, you can only carry so much ammo... if you're carrying a month's worth of ammo, exactly where are you going to put those tradeable goods that were the reason for you making the trip in the first place?

Third, you can only cover so many directions in a three-dimensional realm. Our minds are really only set up to think in two-dimensional terms; when we discuss creating a perimeter, we most commonly picture drawing a circle around us. In a place like Felarya, that simply isn't going to cut it, because threats can come from the sky as well as underground.

Fourth, you're particularly vulnerable to threats approaching from underground; not only can they approach undetected until they strike, but the ground provides an additional layer of defense for them. What are you going to do, blindly fire railgun rounds at the ground, and hope you hit something? Even a railgun round will only travel so far through a solid before it's slowed or deflected off course.

For so many reasons, extreme amounts of firepower is not a catch-all solution to every problem one enouncters on Felarya. Most of the time, you're better off using your brains than your guns.

Hmmm. Then perhaps the best investment is an aerial convoy. Modern US Air Force tech can scour the ground and sky for incoming threats.

If I had to choose one weapon to defend an aerial convoy, I would set my engineers to work on a magneto-flak system. Basically, throw out a bunch of sharp objects and magnetic rocks and let your magnet gun pull them in and push them out, creating a churning storm of deadly metal and blunt objects. One solution easily eliminates ALL attacking harpies, "angels", sphynxes and most fairies in your path. Succubi as well; the silver succubus would be in trouble once the flak gun reverses polarity.

I'd spring for the air convoy, it costs less than ground convoys in Felarya, counting losses.

For a ground convoy, decoy trucks loaded with C4 can take out tunnelers. Normal flak guns and SAMs can take down aerial attackers.

You're not exactly taking into account the magical aspect of Felarya. A lot of predators, especially the sentient ones, can use magic. All the firepower in several different worlds won't mean much if an earth-magic user terraforms a ground-based convoy into a convenient cave, or a wind-magic user can fling the missiles straight up before they hit. Keep in mind, those are just really, really basic examples.



I do like the idea of trade routes, like I'd said before. There are plenty of prey species in our own world that use the same paths for whatever reasons, making a convenient game trail for predators and even human hunters. In Felarya, humans would make a "game trail" for profit, providing a speedy, if considerably more dangerous, way to get their merchandise of choice from Point A to Point B

Mirukani wrote:

You're not exactly taking into account the magical aspect of Felarya. A lot of predators, especially the sentient ones, can use magic. All the firepower in several different worlds won't mean much if an earth-magic user terraforms a ground-based convoy into a convenient cave, or a wind-magic user can fling the missiles straight up before they hit. Keep in mind, those are just really, really basic examples.



I do like the idea of trade routes, like I'd said before. There are plenty of prey species in our own world that use the same paths for whatever reasons, making a convenient game trail for predators and even human hunters. In Felarya, humans would make a "game trail" for profit, providing a speedy, if considerably more dangerous, way to get their merchandise of choice from Point A to Point B

Humans in Felarya also have access to magic. Really, it boils down to who sees who first.

Anti magic is also possible in Felarya - if your convoy is laced with anti magic armor of some sort, the Preds are closer to being stuck fighting on the humans' level.

It was, of course, my mistake NOT to list resistance to magic as a dire necessity for a convoy. Darwin clearly says those who employ anti-magic against Felaryan preds, have a greater chance of survival if it isn't Crisis you're dealing with.

Mirukani wrote:

You're not exactly taking into account the magical aspect of Felarya. A lot of predators, especially the sentient ones, can use magic.

Indeed, this is a commonly recurring problem. Now, I love military hardware as much as the next guy, and even more than the guy next to him, but people seriously overestimate how effective it would be in certain situations. Mainly because they fail to take into account environmental considerations, which are a major factor when dealing with any type of conventional weapon.

This:

Mirukani wrote:

All the firepower in several different worlds won't mean much if an earth-magic user terraforms a ground-based convoy into a convenient cave, or a wind-magic user can fling the missiles straight up before they hit. Keep in mind, those are just really, really basic examples.

...Is dead on accurate. Regardless of the existence of any other types of magic, an enemy who can control the terrain or atmospheric conditions is going to have a major advantage over any modern military force. I assure you, it doesn't matter how many tanks or helicopters/fighter jets you have, if my side can make the ground open up and swallow the tanks, or create a storm that prevents the aircraft from taking part in the battle. They immediately become irrelevant; you might as well not have even brought them in the first place.

There's an old Army saying: "You can't prepare for everything. All you can do is prepare for the situations you know you'll encounter, develop contingencies for the situations you're likely to encounter, play it by ear and hope you don't screw the pooch on everything else."

Raveolution wrote:

Humans in Felarya also have access to magic. Really, it boils down to who sees who first.

Anti magic is also possible in Felarya - if your convoy is laced with anti magic armor of some sort, the Preds are closer to being stuck fighting on the humans' level.

It was, of course, my mistake NOT to list resistance to magic as a dire necessity for a convoy. Darwin clearly says those who employ anti-magic against Felaryan preds, have a greater chance of survival if it isn't Crisis you're dealing with.

Not to nitpick, but some Humans in Felarya also have access to magic. Most of them don't have access to magic AND tanks, choppers, railguns, and fighters. The average trading convoy just doesn't have the resources and manpower to go around decked out like they're ready to fight World War Felarya.

Really, it boils down more to who is prepared to take on whom, and who's faster.

Well, If I had to choose any non-magic example, I would choose a small, fast, but efficient VTOL. VTOL, for the uninformed, stands for Vertical-take-off and landing. It basically lifts off from the ground vertically, but once it's in the air it can travel forward like a fixed wing aircraft, or hover like a helicopter. Now, my bet would be a small, lightly armed one that can carry a moderate amount of cargo. Maybe a wing of those. Something along the lines of the VTOL from crysis. I loved those things.