Would tinies, humans or nekos become too much of a hassle?

Is it logical to assert that Felarya-pseudo-native species, many of whom have come from other realms, would shrug at news of their own kind being eaten by each other, or even giant preds? This isn't commonly true for real-life humans, especially not in modern times. Humans aren't known for tolerating predators of any sort preying on their kind; and nekos and tinies can't be too much different, especially those who came from other realms where they are dominant.

Humans, the only one of the three species that truly exists, are relentless and unforgiving of deadly predators. They're not known for "letting things go" when one of their own is killed by another species; and they certainly aren't known for repeatedly charging blindly into that kind of harsh wilderness, in that someone is going to start asking questions about "why hasn't Johnny or Larry or Susie or Marty ever returned from there?" and then, unless Felarya never connects to that particular place again, people from outside are going to send more well-armed expeditions: fact of history right there. Humans are not known for leaving well enough alone when they find that scores of people have gone into a place and not come back alive: there is always an urge to tame whatever that danger zone is.

Even newcomers (especially at Negav) are going to hear extensively about these dangers from other sentient residents of Felarta. As for survivors of encounters, while some will flee or cower if they can, other survivors are certain to will come back "loaded for bear"... just for revenge for their lost love ones. Revenge and payback is integral to being human and, unless they're incredibly different, nekos and tinies as well. Also, Felarya would be a huge mecca for Big Game Hunters (at least those who have reliable access to Felarya) who study the predators there and who'd come prepared.

And Governments on Felarya, or whose people are routinely exposed to it, would act, too. A Government that did nothing about these dangers, would be at risk for revolution; any General who'd want total power could promise his people to do something about the threat facing their loved ones who ventured outside of (name your town), and they'd have the support of countless people, which would then also affect the troops. The Deluran people, in particular, would get tired of constantly having to hide and sneak around; I could see some of them trying to find a go-between to buy Miratan or Negavian hardware, since all of theirs keeps rusting. The Delurans keep wondering why they're there; one of their own would inevitably barter for some reliable hardware and come back promising to protect their people and give them a life above ground in the open under the sunlight. The rest is pretty much history.

Treasure hunters are going to be especially motivated to learn about the dangers of Felarya ahead of time and to come loaded for bear. There'll always be stupid treasure hunters but they'll serve as plenty of a warning for the savvy ones. Plus, with Negav city being so well armed, anyone who makes it that far has a chance of having enough currency or barter power to obtain very high level firepower. Inevitably there'll be a major trade in "elephant gun" firepower in Negav, or any major settlement. This will definitely be available to any nekos or even tinies (in case anyone thinks I've neglected to emphasize them) - and tinies will want this firepower to defend themselves against everybody: kensha beast poison, explosives, you name it, if it keeps their loved ones from being eaten the tinies will generate a market for it. Of course, trophy hunters - big gamers - will come with bigger and bigger firepower, especially if they have a reliable way into Felarya.

At some point this can only lead to war - tinies going to war to defend their loved ones, nekos and humans going to war with Giant Preds to maintain dominance (especially the ones who come from a world where they are dominant), and to keep themselves safe from harm.

In fact, I could see the tinies being a lot more hostile toward those humans and nekos who are known to eat them. I could not for instance reasonably imagine being a neko who eats tinies and who sleeps well at night. Of course, the tinies and nekos might have a back history of being more accepting of being "down there" on the food chain, but I see no sign of that.

Not saying this would end in a sort of war epic, but you'd normally see a lot more nekos being very wary of the tinies they see (for fear of the weapons and/or tinies they don't see who have a bead on them), and nagas and fairies thinking twice about eating nekos or humans: basically, humans and tinies eventually costing more energy to fight than is gained from eating them.

I see what you're coming from. Yeah, eventually they would become too strong to try and eat.

And this is where I think the guardians would come in. Once again because they feel the food chain should remain unchanged. ._. (not that i wouldn't get pissed about it. )

Pendragon wrote:

I see what you're coming from. Yeah, eventually they would become too strong to try and eat.

And this is where I think the guardians would come in. Once again because they feel the food chain should remain unchanged. ._. (not that i wouldn't get pissed about it. )

I can't help but wonder sometimes if the Guardians slipped in and stirred up the fight between the humans and the nekos in Negav City that led to its previous... eh, um, crisis.

Can you imagine? After destroying Ur Sagol and rendering the place a wasteland, maybe the Guardians decided such levels of destruction weren't good for Felarya and that something less devastating could work.

If they work it just right then no one stays at the top of the food chain for too long. No one.

Raveolution wrote:

Humans... are relentless and unforgiving of deadly predators.

I dispute that. We're not relentless or unforgiving.
We do relent when it gets to hard or costs to much and we do forgive.
And we certainly are not predators. Predators are specialised creatures, they don't diversify much, because most of their energy, thought and biology is focused on catching prey. Humans aren't like that. If we were, we wouldn't have invented things like the internet.

However, humans are pack creatures, we can be stirred up by a charismatic leader to do things we wouldn't normally do (like go on a suicidal attack on a pred).

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Raveolution wrote:

Humans... are relentless and unforgiving of deadly predators.

I dispute that. We're not relentless or unforgiving.
We do relent when it gets to hard or costs to much and we do forgive.
And we certainly are not predators. Predators are specialised creatures, they don't diversify much, because most of their energy, thought and biology is focused on catching prey. Humans aren't like that. If we were, we wouldn't have invented things like the internet.

However, humans are pack creatures, we can be stirred up by a charismatic leader to do things we wouldn't normally do (like go on a suicidal attack on a pred).

I call BS. Humans started as omnivores, but we were certainly predators during any given ice age. Prey species need only to run. Flee. That's why they have eyes positioned on the side of their heads, so they can see shit and RUN. We have eyes in the front, for focusing on one thing, for chasing, like most predators. Cats, most dogs, and almost every mammal predator have eyes in the front of the head, while prey mammals have them on the side.

Long ago, we were hunters. Unlike prey needing only the ability to flee, to survive we had to outwit them occasionally. To get a large quarry takes a plan. Cleverness. And without claws, one of those "methods" was sharpening sticks, our first invention. Predators like to have it easy, they hunt to eat, not for the heck of it. Thus we, as intelligent beings, got inventive to make hunting and getting food in general as easy as possible. Boom, technology.

Intelligence is needed by predators far more than prey- a fox is smarter than a chicken.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Raveolution wrote:

Humans... are relentless and unforgiving of deadly predators.

I dispute that. We're not relentless or unforgiving.
We do relent when it gets to hard or costs to much and we do forgive.

Not when it comes to human life. Please name me one animal that we have let ourselves be dominated by, aside from each other (and not even that for long, given the long history of slave rebellions). Ghosts and the Darkness, anyone?

Quote :

And we certainly are not predators.

I'm so not touching that.

TL;DR: ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH

Except no, the powah is too great for baww and rage to overcome it.

The only place I can think of that a predatory neko would perhaps not sleep perfectly well at night FROM WORRY OF TINIES is Negav, where tinies have been known to take revenge by pricking someone with poison in their sleep.

Tinies going to war though? It's like you're inventing some world where predators inevitably 'get what's coming to them' because people get huffy about the danger. What.

Firstly - you talk about humans being "unforgiving" of predators and relentlessly hunting them down. How do you know? Humanity has never had to deal and contest with a sentient predator. Not tigers or bears or whatnot. A thinking predator. The closest example would be humans making war on each other. (Sometimes for food, but not in a direct manner... for the resources and such.)

And in this cases we are as quick to anger - as we are to forget.

Secondly - Governments? What? There is no government, besides small town based ones which couldn't do diddly squat against a predator. And the Psi'ol Magiocrats are less a Government than a business. They get power and money, Negavians get the Isolon Eye. Besides radical examples, as seen in the Manga, they don't give a crap about what happens outside Negav. Most Negavians just accept people who go out into the jungle don't come back.

And Big Game Hunters - why would they come to Felarya? I'm sure there's worlds easier to get to (and more importantly, from) that don't have all the stuff to deal with that Felarya does. Probably lots that have big nagas too, if they're really into killing demi-humans.

This idea assumes a level or organization that is simply not seen by humans or nekos on Felarya and probably won't be. Out of world powers either don't care too much - like the Miratans, who are just scouting and have themselves a comfy little home, or are powers who need Felarya as their world is dying, etc. etc. - in which case they don't have the resources to start a war.

Such measures don't make a lick of sense on Felarya with such small settlements. A tribe of tinies starts shooting nekos? The nekos are going to nuke the pesky tinies village with magic and then eat as many as they can. Such actions are highly unproductive when it comes to survival. Nagas and predators are people too. They're JUST AS LIKELY to come back for revenge. Pissing off predators is not a good thing to do if your trying to survive.

The only reason someone would raise an army on Felarya is for conquest - and if you're doing that, you'll either fail, or be successful and then get blown to bits by the Guardians.

Now, if there was NO portals to Felarya and only one group of humans, all pressured by predators AND they had the technology, then yes, they may go to war. But on Felarya as it is, doing such a thing makes no sense what so ever. The best way to survive is just make sure you yourself are as best equipped as you can be and be inconspicuous.

Yeah, individuals will go for revenge. But not even the most charismatic leader (of which the highest level you'll get is something like a mayor or colonel - generals ain't going to waste their time on planet) could convince a group of people to do something which will probably get them instantly killed, and if not, will certainly cause them a hell of a lot of trouble later.

But hey, I'm sure there's some people who want Felarya to be a big warzone. I'm just not one of them.

Jætte_Troll wrote:

All of these points

Agree with each of those.

I second that.

I third it

Quote :

but we were certainly predators during any given ice age

Only because other methods were unavailable to us. You can't farm during an ice age. If we were predators we would have continued doing nothing but hunt afterwards.

Predators are adapted to their environment so they can hunt with maximum efficiency. We adapt our environment to our needs, a decidedly unpredator-like characteristic.
A lot of predators species die out or are reduced with environment change as they are unable to adapt. Scavengers and herbivores are more likely to survive an environment change than a predator is.

We may have predatory characteristics, but I'm pretty sure we are not predators
Also, attacking a species that has caused harm to us is not a predatory characteristic, every animal that has the capability to defend itself against attackers will do so. We just go further by also killing other members of the attacker's tribe/group/species because we can rationalise that if they did it once they can do it again.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Quote :

but we were certainly predators during any given ice age

Only because other methods were unavailable to us. You can't farm during an ice age. If we were predators we would have continued doing nothing but hunt afterwards.

This is, strictly speaking, not true. It's quite possible to farm during an ice age; the glaciers only came down to the border between the U.S.A. and Canada, and permafrost only went a few hundred miles further than that, leaving everything south of that free for farming. However, before the last ice age we were hunter-gatherers. During the last ice age we were hunter-gatherers. After the last ice age, we were hunter-gatherers. We didn't start farming until a few thousand years after the last ice age, because the concept of farming had not yet been invented! (You wouldn't think that something as simple as that would have needed to be invented, but it did.)

Also, "hunter-gathering" is something we see commonly occurring among predatory omnivores, like we are. Bears are a good example, at the top of the food chain in many places, known to both hunt and kill adult moose and gather berries and roots.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Predators are adapted to their environment so they can hunt with maximum efficiency. We adapt our environment to our needs, a decidedly unpredator-like characteristic.

I can't say that I agree with you about predators not adapting their environment to their needs: ants come to mind, as do the other predatory/sometimes predator social insects.

Selections of text from what Wikipedia has to say about humans as predators: "In much of the world, humans are the largest, best-organized, most cunning, and most powerful predators. The closest rival to humans in those characteristics in most of the world, the dog, is far more likely a collaborator than a competitor or a menace." and "Anatomically modern humans have been apex predators since they first evolved, and many species of carnivorous magafauna actively avoid interacting with humans; the primary environmental competitor for a human is other humans."

In particular "many species of carnivorous magafauna actively avoid interacting with humans" is important. I don't know about everyone else here, but once when I was hiking in the local national park, I ran across a bear. It took one look at me and ran away like I was the devil himself. Predators don't run from prey species generally.

Wikipedia's article on apex predators is also quite informative. We're apex predators: nothing has us as its primary food source, and we kill creatures that attack humans, thus providing strong selective pressure against a species prey on us.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

We just go further by also killing other members of the attacker's tribe/group/species because we can rationalise that if they did it once they can do it again.

Right, this "group punishment" isn't a predatory characteristic, but rather a characteristic of intelligent social creatures. Dogs have it too, to some extent: an abused dog will lash out at any human, simply because they are human.

Jætte_Troll wrote:

Firstly - you talk about humans being "unforgiving" of predators and relentlessly hunting them down. How do you know? Humanity has never had to deal and contest with a sentient predator. Not tigers or bears or whatnot. A thinking predator. The closest example would be humans making war on each other. (Sometimes for food, but not in a direct manner... for the resources and such.)

Yeah, and we've never stopped fighting. Even the United States, with all its might, gets challenged. Them extremists in the Middle East (not talking about ALL Muslims, mind you) see us as a hegemonic monster and will stop at nothing to resist. You're making my point here: humans don't back down, not even to sentient predators like each other, not even to sentient predators with the firepower to glass an entire region of the planet. They don't forget, they don't back down, and they don't relent. Would you argue that this is not true?

My point is, thinking predators don't make other thinking predators back down - it only makes things worse. We're where we are right now, with scientists updating their doomsday clock, because thinking predators will not back down.

Quote :

And in this cases we are as quick to anger - as we are to forget.

And yet we also have one war that has gone on for a thousand years, is this not true?
When have humans ever "forgot" wrongs done to them (in a collective sense) except when one side has been wiped out by the other?
On Felarya you have no choice but to remember - if for no other reason but to know why you're in danger when you go into the forest.

Quote :

Secondly - Governments? What? There is no government, besides small town based ones which couldn't do diddly squat against a predator. And the Psi'ol Magiocrats are less a Government than a business. They get power and money, Negavians get the Isolon Eye. Besides radical examples, as seen in the Manga, they don't give a crap about what happens outside Negav. Most Negavians just accept people who go out into the jungle don't come back.

Then what about the Delurans, whose people keep wondering why they're there? I bet I could walk in there and offer to give them a life above ground, and if I could deliver on that, they would follow me. If the word 'Government' squicks you, then what about the word "leader"?

Let's put it this way: whenever have you heard of a time in history when humans have not rallied behind a leader who made good on the promise of a better life? If someone could move into the Deluran zone and provide a hundred Delurans a year of life with the sun shining on their heads and no one got eaten by a predator, who do you think would not want to follow that person?

What do you think would happen in Negav City if someone came in and said "follow me and I'll make sure those who leave out of here come back alive." Do you think that the Merchants would not be the first to come to their side? Every citizen that goes out and then comes back, would they not be grateful to this person? The Magiocrats would have to blast this guy; and the results of that wouldn't be good for Negav.

Quote :

And Big Game Hunters - why would they come to Felarya? I'm sure there's worlds easier to get to (and more importantly, from) that don't have all the stuff to deal with that Felarya does. Probably lots that have big nagas too, if they're really into killing demi-humans.

Wait, when ever do Big Game Hunters go for "easier" game? Isn't the whole point to go out and bring down the biggest and the baddest? Have you ever heard of the "Big Five"? Do you realize what happens to anyone, humans or not, who get a reputation of being super bad-ass? Does someone not keep coming for them?

Quote :

This idea assumes a level or organization that is simply not seen by humans or nekos on Felarya and probably won't be. Out of world powers either don't care too much - like the Miratans, who are just scouting and have themselves a comfy little home, or are powers who need Felarya as their world is dying, etc. etc. - in which case they don't have the resources to start a war.

Are the Miratans going to be scouting forever? Does scouting not usually lead to something more, unless they're going to pull out eventually?

And humans and nekos are likely to inevitably organize themselves because they want to live. Organized groups survive better; and in Felarya natural selection is king. You cannot possibly have the kind of dangers you see in Felarya and not have people of a given species joining forces to fight it. They may fragment later on, and the humans and nekos have been known to fight around the area of Negav, but at some point a given sentient species is going to get pissed at being scared of giant nagas and decide they won't take it anymore. Whenever have you heard of groups of humans not organizing for a common defense when the wolf starts snatching their people?

Quote :

Such measures don't make a lick of sense on Felarya with such small settlements. A tribe of tinies starts shooting nekos? The nekos are going to nuke the pesky tinies village with magic and then eat as many as they can.

More like the tinies are going to be walking around in larger more well armed groups (or more stealthy strike forces that keep their home base a secret) as time progresses, presenting bigger problems for nekos who come trying to eat them. And anyone with equipment that can help them, will see profit in selling to them. If you were a tiny that was afraid of getting eaten you would, if you wanted to live, look for methods of self defense; and I would be right there with the goods to make a profit. Please, tell me where this does not happen: a persistent threat to life and limb causes people to invest more and more into self defense. It's called escalation.

Now for the first xx years the tinies wouldn't have any resources to stop a mad neko from magic-nuking them; but over time profit-seeking third parties are going to start taking advantage of their needs. First comes the Gunthers of the world; then the more reputable dealers. Then someone will sell goods to the Nekos to counter-act this, and the cycle will go on forever.

Of course, if Nekos went on a magic-nuking rampage, threatening one tiny village after another, that upsets the balance of things... which would bring in the Guardians. Unless the tinies are considered unimportant.

Quote :

Such actions are highly unproductive when it comes to survival. Nagas and predators are people too. They're JUST AS LIKELY to come back for revenge. Pissing off predators is not a good thing to do if your trying to survive.

When predators are coming after you, you have nothing to lose. Why wouldn't you come packing some kind of heat if you know they're coming for you? You can't deny the instinct of self-defense.

Quote :

The only reason someone would raise an army on Felarya is for conquest - and if you're doing that, you'll either fail, or be successful and then get blown to bits by the Guardians.

I disagree. An army can also be for defense. It is in fact often used for both. But yeah, at some point the Guardians would interfere.

Quote :

Now, if there was NO portals to Felarya and only one group of humans, all pressured by predators AND they had the technology, then yes, they may go to war. But on Felarya as it is, doing such a thing makes no sense what so ever. The best way to survive is just make sure you yourself are as best equipped as you can be and be inconspicuous.

And you honestly think that people (humans, nekos and tinies) would not form groups to better provide for their own defense? Where in history has that not happened?

The difference between these groups and 'armies' is in how big and how well organized they get. And history shows that when sentient predators on Earth go against others of their caliber, survival has been best optimized when individuals form groups and then groups form armies. It's an escalation thing. When have sentient predators ever backed down to anything that threatens them outright?

Quote :

Yeah, individuals will go for revenge. But not even the most charismatic leader (of which the highest level you'll get is something like a mayor or colonel - generals ain't going to waste their time on planet) could convince a group of people to do something which will probably get them instantly killed, and if not, will certainly cause them a hell of a lot of trouble later.

Tell ya what. If you are living in a village outside of Negav City and I come by selling enough firepower to drop a giant naga two clicks away from the schoolkids, I will bet my ass that said village will buy my hardware. If I had an army of warriors well armed to protect you from a raid by predators and you've had run-ins with these monsters before I would bet my ass your neighbors would buy my services.

As for individuals going for revenge, again, someone is going to know this means big money, and for every Gunther out there there's going to be another merchant charging premium quid for a REAL kick-ass weapon. For every want there is a market and for every market there's someone looking to fulfill, for a profit.

A giant naga coming back after that to avenge an already retaliatory killing will spawn more people looking for BIGGER weapons. It's a fantasy to think that people just "drop it". That's why I said war was inevitable: intelligent predators are given to cycles of payback. And if Negav, etc. won't help out, which they're not likely to in the beginning, there are certain to be artifact/arms dealers in Felarya who will make a profit by providing the goods.

Quote :

But hey, I'm sure there's some people who want Felarya to be a big warzone. I'm just not one of them.

But war is inevitable when some predator attacks a town and the town rises adequately to its own defense. The predators will keep coming, especially if, as you said, they want to avenge their dead. Tinies vs nekos, nekos vs Nagas, you name it.

No, it's just that when you have a world full of sentients, eventually none of them will be sleeping well until they decide that "if you're sentient I won't eat you". You're denying that humans (and thus nekos and tinies) will not fight back and will not resist with everything they've got, and won't come back with bigger and better until one side or the other is either wiped out, or brought to their knees. Where in history do you find this not happening?

What's going to happen in the end when all is said and done is a lot of people will die given the attrition of going into Felarya's forests, and then what you'll see is the survivors all walking around in big Miratan-style mechs with outrageous firepower. Towns in the forest will arise with astounding weaponry while others will utterly perish, but after a while nothing will even be established out there with mini-Negav level firepower. If you deny this you're flatly denying natural selection.

The main issue with all your arguments is supply. Im not even going to touch the part about wanting an ever-escalating arms-race in Felarya with both sides trying to kill eachother even more effectively. That's the kind of shit that nearly wiped the US and Russia out in the 1960's

The main issue is supply. In order to take down a predator effectively, you will need military-grade weapons. Fifty-caliber or larger (and I'd even say fifty-cal might be on the smaller end of what you want) anti-material rifles, rockets, high-explosives and other such high-end hardware. Civillian weapons just aren't going to do the trick. I don't think even Elephant guns will work, even small preds are many times larger than an elephant.

Now, that is where the problem arises. The only people who have access to that kind if hardware are the militaries. That's why the Miritans live pretty comfortably, and even the Delurans don't do so bad as long as they stick close to their underground base (really, their main problem is location. They went and built their base on the edge of the forest of whispers...and then Crisis eventually took up the territory to their east as her own). Sure, occaisionally someone MIGHT come across the left-overs from some failed military scout force...but other than that, you aren't going to have a large enough influx of anti-material rifles and rockets to heavily arm a large group. The only reliable dimensional portal (that we know of) is in Negav City, and the Vishmitals and Magiocrats likely buy them up for the city's defense forces and their own private militaries (the Isolon Fist, and whatever the Vishmital's is).

The other problem is money. The average Felaryan isn't rich. The magiocrats and Vishmitals own the ascarlin mines. Sure, they likely pay wages....but the average person isn't going to be able to afford military-grade weaponry and ammo. Merchants who regularly run supply caravans through the jungle, likely in-between Negav and the Ascarlin mines probably are just given escorts from the Isolon Fist or whatever the Vishmital's elite security force is. You'd see some guns, shotguns, some hunting rifles, maybe some assault rifles...but the higher-ups are going to scoop up the heavy stuff for themselves. Tiny villages aren't going to have those kinds of weapons. They have no money, and merchants aren't going to go days out into the jungle to sell to people that don't have money.

So yes, the few large groups that there are (Negav, and its equivalents around the world) would have the kinds of weapons to kill preds....but they're going to play defensively, especially in places like Negav where they're essentially safe. The fact is, going into the jungle and trying to hunt down a specific pred is suicide. That is their environment. They know it like the backs of their hands, and most have been surviving in it for close to a century. You can have all the technology and firepower you want, but if you step into a harsh environment that your enemy is used to surviving and living in, well...it usually doesn't end well a lot of the time (see also: Vietnam, and every attempt made to invade Russia or Afghanistan). Not to mention that preds have extremely good senses, and if they have Dryad friends, a heavily armed force would likely be spotted by the Dryad network not too long after getting into the jungle.

I mean, just look at what you'd need to do to hunt down and kill one, specific pred.
- Somehow find a seller of military-grade anti-armor weaponry.
- Somehow afford this weaponry with whatever you have in your pockets.
- Go into the jungle.
- Hike for possibly days (loaded down with the heavy, clumsy, anti-armor weaponry), in an environment full of not only other sentient predators, but giant animals, and giant carnivorous plants.
- When you get to the pred's usual territory...you have to track it down, get in close, and get off a kill-shot without first being spotted by either the pred you're hunting, or something else that could kill you.

It just isn't practical. Sure, some would go for revenge, but most would realize how stupid the idea is and be like "Shame about Bob and Susie...at least we're safe though"

I totally agree.

War is something avoided in felarya by the tinier species because it would destroy themselves too much. This is a world that you want to unite with your fellow humans, nekos, or elves with more than anything. Going to war with anyone is a really bad idea, and it never works out in the end anyway.

...I thought this was common sense.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

I totally agree.

War is something avoided in felarya by the tinier species because it would destroy themselves too much. This is a world that you want to unite with your fellow humans, nekos, or elves with more than anything. Going to war with anyone is a really bad idea, and it never works out in the end anyway.

...I thought this was common sense.

Don't be silly. Elves would never lower themselves to work with the lesser races. And why would humans deign to work with such elitist jerks like the elves, or the disgusting animalistic nekos. What would those primitive races have to offer the superior might of the human race? As for the nekos, well, humans are too slow, and elves smell funny. xP

Plus, I'm sure if people started culling preds, the Felarya equivalent of PETA would go into an insane frenzy.

rcs619 wrote:

The main issue with all your arguments is supply. Im not even going to touch the part about wanting an ever-escalating arms-race in Felarya with both sides trying to kill eachother even more effectively. That's the kind of shit that nearly wiped the US and Russia out in the 1960's

Actually escalation is never desired, but it is a fact of survival. It even happens in evolution. What could potentially come of it is a general agreement to leave each other alone. We've seen that happen among sentients, too - which is why the US and Russia are, in fact, still here.

If humans became too big of a problem for nagas and tinies became too big a problem for nekos, the preds would seek another food supply and agree to back off of the well-defended prey. It wouldn't end in "scorched Felarya" even if the Guardians took a vacation.

Quote :

The main issue is supply. In order to take down a predator effectively, you will need military-grade weapons. Fifty-caliber or larger (and I'd even say fifty-cal might be on the smaller end of what you want) anti-material rifles, rockets, high-explosives and other such high-end hardware. Civillian weapons just aren't going to do the trick. I don't think even Elephant guns will work, even small preds are many times larger than an elephant.

Taken into consideration. There's tons of things coming into Felarya from outside the realm. The survivors would get their hands on the bigger stuff.

Quote :

Now, that is where the problem arises. The only people who have access to that kind if hardware are the militaries. That's why the Miritans live pretty comfortably, and even the Delurans don't do so bad as long as they stick close to their underground base (really, their main problem is location. They went and built their base on the edge of the forest of whispers...and then Crisis eventually took up the territory to their east as her own). Sure, occaisionally someone MIGHT come across the left-overs from some failed military scout force...but other than that, you aren't going to have a large enough influx of anti-material rifles and rockets to heavily arm a large group. The only reliable dimensional portal (that we know of) is in Negav City, and the Vishmitals and Magiocrats likely buy them up for the city's defense forces and their own private militaries (the Isolon Fist, and whatever the Vishmital's is).

So you're saying no one with any big time goodies could even get past the Negavians to reach, say, the Delurans? The Negavians would probably bankrupt themselves catching every last big gun that came through their "jump"gate. Plus, plenty of stuff would also fall off the truck.

Quote :

The other problem is money. The average Felaryan isn't rich. The magiocrats and Vishmitals own the ascarlin mines. Sure, they likely pay wages....but the average person isn't going to be able to afford military-grade weaponry and ammo. Merchants who regularly run supply caravans through the jungle, likely in-between Negav and the Ascarlin mines probably are just given escorts from the Isolon Fist or whatever the Vishmital's elite security force is. You'd see some guns, shotguns, some hunting rifles, maybe some assault rifles...but the higher-ups are going to scoop up the heavy stuff for themselves. Tiny villages aren't going to have those kinds of weapons. They have no money, and merchants aren't going to go days out into the jungle to sell to people that don't have money.

Yes, it would be difficult to compete against Negav for the flood of resources coming into Felarya. And those small villages who can't afford it, probably won't survive. But the one or two that can gather the resources, will try to barter for it. That would even encourage people of tiny villages to join and form larger ones and find ways to barter.

Quote :

So yes, the few large groups that there are (Negav, and its equivalents around the world) would have the kinds of weapons to kill preds....but they're going to play defensively, especially in places like Negav where they're essentially safe. The fact is, going into the jungle and trying to hunt down a specific pred is suicide. That is their environment. They know it like the backs of their hands, and most have been surviving in it for close to a century. You can have all the technology and firepower you want, but if you step into a harsh environment that your enemy is used to surviving and living in, well...it usually doesn't end well a lot of the time (see also: Vietnam, and every attempt made to invade Russia or Afghanistan). Not to mention that preds have extremely good senses, and if they have Dryad friends, a heavily armed force would likely be spotted by the Dryad network not too long after getting into the jungle.

Doesn't seem to stop the Miratans if they go somewhere. But then it isn't easy to obtain their level of firepower and they don't go on rampages, either. It seems that only the Preds have the right to go on village-destroying rampages, or nekos can nuke a village of tinies, but God forbid the other side (intelligent, sentient preds that they are) ever do such a thing.

Anyhoot, while there should be no dearth of big gear coming into Felarya, there is no denying the difficulty of individuals competing against Negav city to obtain it. Especially if Negav has the infinite wealth to buy it all.

Quote :

I mean, just look at what you'd need to do to hunt down and kill one, specific pred.
- Somehow find a seller of military-grade anti-armor weaponry.
- Somehow afford this weaponry with whatever you have in your pockets.
- Go into the jungle.

Why not go over it, if you have the means? That's what I'd do if I were, say, not a military force but rather a convoy.
Every theory of dealing with preds concentrates on going into the jungle; when there are ways to go over and above and to see targets from below. But again, that's in the realm of heavy equipment. Negav, though, may not be so interested in that stuff. Who do they need to deliver "death from above" to?

Quote :

- Hike for possibly days (loaded down with the heavy, clumsy, anti-armor weaponry), in an environment full of not only other sentient predators, but giant animals, and giant carnivorous plants.
- When you get to the pred's usual territory...you have to track it down, get in close, and get off a kill-shot without first being spotted by either the pred you're hunting, or something else that could kill you.

It just isn't practical. Sure, some would go for revenge, but most would realize how stupid the idea is and be like "Shame about Bob and Susie...at least we're safe though"

They wouldn't just say "shame on Bob and Susie" if Bob & Susie were their kids or parents.

And one other thing, off topic (dammit): if humans have such a hard time in the forest, they will eventually stop going into the forest. Why ever would humans go exploring or treasure hunting in a forest that is as impossible to penetrate as you (and many other stories, in fact) say it is? Even some of the newbs who scout into Felarya are likely to hear horrendous stories and be turned back. Likewise, if tinies cannot ever deter the Nekos, they'll move to where the Nekos can't get them. They're not dumb like seals, who just keep coming to the water while Orcas hide nearby offshore: if as you say getting well-armed enough is so impossible, they'll just skedaddle.

This will force the P/preds (P/preds as in nagas chasing humans, nekos chasing tinies, you name it) to come looking for their prey's habitats... which would still force a war of escalation to happen because at some point those who run are going to stand their ground or run out of places to flee and go extinct.

And if Negav City/Nekomura or some equally "safe" spot is the only place anyone's going to hang out, then that pretty much closes the book on things. Unless the big Preds are willing to try to take down Negav and Nekomura: which, again, means the equivalent of a war.


In short, someone is absolutely, positively going to have a supply problem. If there is not enough supply of heavy arms for the humans/nekos/tinies, then they are absolutely certain to take the other route: making themselves scarce.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

I totally agree.

War is something avoided in felarya by the tinier species because it would destroy themselves too much. This is a world that you want to unite with your fellow humans, nekos, or elves with more than anything. Going to war with anyone is a really bad idea, and it never works out in the end anyway.

...I thought this was common sense.

If you have giant preds who are preying on your people, the following responses are certain:

a) you look for ways to kick their asses until they leave you alone; failing that, you either
b) you worship them, like the Naxylan humans worship the Dridders that eat them; or
c) you sacrifice your own to them (related to b) to appease them; or
d) you skedaddle and make yourself unavailable.

Under no circumstances would any sentient species ever keep walking out into that kind of place knowing full well they run such an alarmingly high risk of being eaten.

AisuKaiko wrote:

Plus, I'm sure if people started culling preds, the Felarya equivalent of PETA would go into an insane frenzy.

PETA wouldn't survive on Felarya; but if they started reducing Preds to the endangered species list, the GUARDIANS would play the role of PETA...

Raveolution wrote:

AisuKaiko wrote:

Plus, I'm sure if people started culling preds, the Felarya equivalent of PETA would go into an insane frenzy.

PETA wouldn't survive on Felarya; but if they started reducing Preds to the endangered species list, the GUARDIANS would play the role of PETA...

I know, just trying to lighten things up here, since you're all srsbzns... x.x

Raveolution wrote:

It seems that only the Preds have the right to go on village-destroying rampages, or nekos can nuke a village of tinies, but God forbid the other side (intelligent, sentient preds that they are) ever do such a thing.

I think you might find this story to be interesting.

So basically, you want to turn Felarya into a few supah defended Negav-style islands, while the predators float around in between, not daring to eat anything that might not like it, for fear of breaking the "stalemate" the prey species have achieved.

Felarya isn't a world with nations, or borders, or governments, which is the main issue here. It is a massive, dangerous frontier. Yes, there are attempts at "colonialism", if you will, but anyone who could possible end up "conquering" Felarya would get nuked by the guardians.

You're also ignoring so many fundamental parts of Felarya.

Like the soil that makes you immortal. People are selfish. If the possibility of living FOREVER is open to them, they are going to do their darned best to not get killed.

Like the high levels of magic. There's no telling what the enemy might be capable of. It could change day to day. It could have allies you don't know about and couldn't hope to face.

You can divide this up to every group of people -

Treasure hunters and adventurers - this is the group with the largest amount of people who are unawares of what Felarya actually is like. After one predator encounter, they are going to either flee the plane, or try to get what they came for as quickly as possible and flee the plane. Even those who set out knowing what they are doing - they're focused on the task at hand.

Natives - these live in small villages, to avoid attention. They probably don't even know much about how advanced weaponry works. They're not going to deviate from the strategies that kept them alive. Some even befriend predators to ensure their survival.

Expeditions - Delurans, Miritans and such. They're only visitors. They don't have much real stake in Felarya. The Miratans even less - to them, they've got a pretty sweet set up. Why would they go out of their way to cause trouble on a world that isn't even theirs? Delurans are in enough trouble as is.

Negavians - These people mostly just try to ignore the jungle if they're not into adventuring. Why would they bother with it? They're safe. There are probably well off, settled Negavians who've never even seen a predator. Maybe if their government was convinced enough it was a good idea - but they don't really have one, as mentioned. The people in charge aren't going to do something that wasteful.

You're basically talking about a sudden, mass political, cultural and philosophical upheaval affecting every smaller species on Felarya.

Oldman40k2003 wrote:

Raveolution wrote:

It seems that only the Preds have the right to go on village-destroying rampages, or nekos can nuke a village of tinies, but God forbid the other side (intelligent, sentient preds that they are) ever do such a thing.

I think you might find this story to be interesting.

Oh snap. I glossed this over a while ago and now I see they are a stub in the Felarya wiki. So this is now basically becoming canon. Wootage. I dig the Verdoya Tribe.

Oh and AisuKaiko... your humor is seriously appreciated. Darn, I need my humor detector fixed!

Raveolution wrote:

Under no circumstances would any sentient species ever keep walking out into that kind of place knowing full well they run such an alarmingly high risk of being eaten.

I am a big fan of the idea that the vast majority of the people that are eaten in Felarya are freshly arrived outsiders, partially because it helps solve this problem. How?

Consider this: humans would never tolerate a species that was attacking their homes and killing their fellow humans, if they had any say in the matter. But humans will quite easily tolerate a species that kills humans from time to time, if interacting with that species in such a way that will get you killed requires willful stupidity on the part of the human. For example, we would never tolerate vipers that attack our villages, but we have no problems tolerating the existence of vipers in general, even though they do kill people from time to time. This is because the number of people killed is very low compared to our species population, and because to get killed by a viper you have to actively go out to where the vipers are, in most cases.

Likewise, while most people will not do stupid things if said stupid thing will probably get you killed, there is a certain fraction of the populace that likes to do risky things; extreme sports, etc. They will keep marching into Felarya because of its dangers, not in spite of it, but their deaths are less likely to start a "revenge circle", because their societies will see them as having exercised poor judgment.


I think also that there should be some sort of semi-stable balance between predators and prey, a weighing of costs. A predator might want to attack a village, but they would have to weigh the gain in food against possible damage they could take: the prey might not have a weapon that can kill them outright, but if they get hit with a dozen arrows each tipped with a cumulative poison, they're not going to be feeling so well, and could very well become prey themselves. They could also lose an eye (or both eyes!), or take other damage that would severely imperil their lives.
A prey village might want to take revenge for their fallen, but they have to balance the risk of catching a relatively healthy pred (if the pred was highly injured they'd probably kill it) vs the benefits of just fading away, or setting traps. In fact, I could see that preparing escape routes around a village with traps before hand could be a useful way of discouraging predation on a village. A pred could "safely" prey on lone individuals (if it could find and catch them), but attempts to attack the village risk not only their defenses, but the village retreating to some unknown location, leaving behind a fake trail that would lead the pred through deadly traps (since the traps are laid before hand they could be really deadly: deadfall traps that use giant logs, for example.)

(A thought occurred to me: highly successful predators will not prey overly much on a single village, in order to keep them from moving. In fact, they might even remove some of the other threats to the village. That would be a really strange dynamic, but not unknown in nature.)

Finally, on the issue "no sane person would live on Felarya", while I agree with you on this, even on Earth there are seemingly sane people who reject even contact with the modern world. For example, some of the natives in the Amazon violent reject any and all contact with the outside world, even though we know they know about the benefits of modern life, even simple things like vaccines and health care. I can't say that I understand their logic, but it is likely that villages remaining on Felarya want to stay there.