Where has the community gone?

Ok, in about 6 hours I'll do another post.

no no no, not another long winded post detailing my dissapointment again, I've done that 3 times in a year, and we don't need to hear that again.

What I want to do is merely outline the various problems and ways we can actually try to fix them for the benefit of all.

I also wish to see if there are ways we can reinvigorate the older members and get at least some to return, because we have indeed lost a great portion of experience and talent when they left, and people saying that tho their loss is bad, others will replace them... That just tells me that people can be replaced, which is very disrespectful in my old eyes...

I know some of the members whom have left may not come back despite my efforts, and I also know some cannot return due to circumstances... but all in all, I think that, if people can forgive and actually learn from the past year, as disasterous as it was, we can at the very least get this train running and start making Felarya the place to be once again.

Now, I'm at work right now, but in 6 hours, I'll have 48 hours off to try and do something about all of this... I'll need my scalpel and suture kits ready... This is going to be a loooong operation...

Darkstorm Zero wrote:

I also wish to see if there are ways we can reinvigorate the older members and get at least some to return, because we have indeed lost a great portion of experience and talent when they left, and people saying that tho their loss is bad, others will replace them... That just tells me that people can be replaced, which is very disrespectful in my old eyes...

Indeed, we have lost a lot of experience and talent.
New talents do rise, however experience is irreplaceable, as is knowledge. This is what concerns me.

Yes, there are new people coming along, but where are the people who are supposed to show them the ropes? They're not here.

This point is what I think people in this thread and in other places have missed; losing the old experienced members before they can pass on their experience, attitude, and knowledge doesn't just mean that any future contributions by them are are lost; it also means that future contributions similar to or based upon theirs are also lost.

That is a good point AJ. I'm racking my brain up and down to find a solution to remedy that.

But some people just have things they need to attend to, so it can't be helped.

Ilceren wrote:

I've seen that the wiki contains some credits for "helping with" something. Then we should credit both karbo and the helping person?

Good question. I'll wait to hear people's thoughts about that.

Quote :

Wouldn't it be a bit credit heavy if my story develops in a number of already known places?
Seeing it might be so, we should make some kind of policy. You know, like you must absolutely credit a person if you use their characters, but races and areas it's safe to assume they have been created for the general people to use, since you don't have that much control of them in contrast to a single character.

As I understand it, the "worldbuilders" would generally prefer a little more recognition of their creative input into this world. So yes, locations or races should be credited.

Ilceren wrote:

About the newcomer guide

I think it deserves its own thread.

Ilceren wrote:

Then maybe we should make a list of that. I mean, it's not that difficult to know the creator of single characters since you know where you did read about them, but giving credit of a whole species or a place may be a little difficult without some kind of reference.

Well the wiki does list the credits at the bottom of each page (in a long, hard-to-read single line).

What would be incredibly helpful would be to have inline credits. What this means is that the creator(s) of an idea would be named under the title of the idea. This means that if you're looking at the details on an idea, you're also looking at the credits.

Ilceren wrote:

I've seen that the wiki contains some credits for "helping with" something. Then we should credit both karbo and the helping person? Wouldn't it be a bit credit heavy if my story develops in a number of already known places?

What's wrong with that?
People put in the effort to make the ideas. It's far less effort to type their name in the artist comments on dA.

Ilceren wrote:

Seeing it might be so, we should make some kind of policy. You know, like you must absolutely credit a person if you use their characters, but races and areas it's safe to assume they have been created for the general people to use, since you don't have that much control of them in contrast to a single character. Well, that's my opinion anyway, just some food for thought.

I could write an essay about why you should credit non-character ideas.

I will say this though: If you're unwilling to acknowledge and respect the work of others that you're using, why should others respect or acknowledge your work?

Additionally, crediting ideas promotes the use of ideas by others, because they realise that;

1. There are ideas out there made for use specifically by story writers.
   
2. Concepts in the story are not exclusive to the story and thus can be used by them.

Ilceren wrote:

Future contributions based on theirs are lost? But, when people leave, they don't just arease all traces of themselves, right? I mean, a person's ideas are reflected in his works. If the stories persist, you can still learn from them, from their experiences, and base your new works on them. That's why I make it a point to list the good ol' quality stories somewhere, for reference, for knowlegdekeeping.

I'm not talking about story writers here so much as worldbuilders.
This forum has been around for 5 years; there has been a lot of discussion and lots of threads. Things were learned, ideas hammered out, questions answered, and bits of the wiki claified.
If there's nobody around to remember those threads, newbies are essentially starting from scratch.
Not just that, but with the attitude shift away from quality/improvement, discussions like the old ones are unlikely to occur again.

With ideas, if no-one knows how the creator thought, what they had in mind, etc, how can the idea be built upon?

edit:
This leads me to another point that follows from the one I made here.
With the dwindling number of older members, the visibility of older members decreases.
That is; the knowledge that there are older members around who can and will answer questions and give help becomes non-existent, to the point where no one comes to them for help or knows that they should be doing so and if they go to people to provide help, they're met with "and you are..?"

We're already at the stage I italicized; I've seen mistakes and canon-contradictions in stories on dA that could have been easily avoided had the writer asked a question on the forum or discussed their story idea with an older member.

Quote :

Um, so I'm guessing that those threads aren't around anymore? Not in the last pages of the sections, but definitely gone?

Some certainly seem to be. I searched for a specific thread the other day and I couldn't find it.

There's also the fact that when one person has a lot of knowledge, they can cross reference and provide answers to question quickly and efficiently, even if those questions haven't been asked before (by extrapolation).

“Bring out your dead!” *tonk*

“I’m not dead… yet!”

For myself, work has conspired to take a great deal of free time away (aethernavale, you have my sympathy). With the economy in the sorry state that it’s in, every sale in my industry requires that much more effort due to increased competition and customers holding onto their pennies as if they were their last.

I tried, for a time, to continue writing in fits and spurts with the free time I had available. I wasn’t pleased with the progress or end results of that. So my interest in writing waned substantially. It hasn’t disappeared entirely though, and I do plan at some point to continue with my stories. Unfortunately, that point keeps being pushed further and further into the future. I have three stories in various stages of completion and many others outlined or only partially written. I’ve also cut back my time spend on deviantART to minimal levels (as in zero, of late). I still peruse the forums here and read the story section. I also chat with a few folk via MSN – it helps during the tedium of regression testing.

Side story: It impressed me greatly that Glen Cook, author of The Black Company novels (among others), was able to write his stories a few words at a time during “quiet” intervals (13 to 28 second cycles) while he worked at an custom order truck assembly line at General Motors. He wrote up to three books a year doing that job. And he never had a problem with deadlines. My hat is off to him for being able to do that. I certainly couldn’t.

The forums have had lulls in the past. We’ll likely see more in the future. The same can be said of deviantART as well. Voice of doom aside, it happens and it’s nothing to fret over. If some people wish to be more active to make up for the lack in others, there’s nothing wrong with that. From experience I can tell you it will have more of an impact than simply talking about it.

Please try to stay on topic, this thread is about the community.

Anyway, please recall that the other members here have been around for a while too. They and I have experienced previous luls and can tell that the recent lack of events isn't things as normal.
It may not look any different from previous times of less activity to you timing, but to those more in touch with the community here, it is very concerning.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Please try to stay on topic, this thread is about the community.

Hope that wasn’t referring to me since the OP did ask where everyone has gone and if the community was dying.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Anyway, please recall that the other members here have been around for a while too. They and I have experienced previous luls and can tell that the recent lack of events isn't things as normal.
It may not look any different from previous times of less activity to you timing, but to those more in touch with the community here, it is very concerning.

We can agree to disagree then. You see this as a dying out of part of the community. I see this as something natural/inevitable that has been going on since before the forum was created. Felarya is not unique in this regard. People leave for various reasons. People join for various reasons. We’re in a low point of activity currently.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not against trying to reinvigorate the community, bring in new members, or to bring back members who have departed due to lack of interest or what have you. I’m saying we should be realistic about this and not overstate the gloom and doom.

You misunderstand, I'm not saying that everyone's going to suddenly leave, though the community that was here when I joined is certainly gone.
However, that original community was gradually replaced by one that had grown while the original was still strong. This is not the case this time.
What I'm saying is that there's not enough there are enough older members to naturally avoid what Cauldronborn aptly termed an "atmosphere of ignorance."

Additionally, recently it seems that some contributors are less inclined to contribute due to the conditions required, independent of their activity.

The thing with that, Timing, is that many of those that have left recently have done so because of what happened over the past year within the community. People left that should not have had to, and for reasons that where entirely avoidable situational circumstance. This is gravely dissapointing in my eyes, and I beleive efforts should have been made to reach mutual understanding, which of course never occured, nor was ever attempted with the exeption of my own initiation of talking karbo out of completely shutting the whole community down. That has been the one sole actual success in the entire years worth of drama.

What I was hoping for with both the Resolution and the Announcement threads, my goal was to bring people back together under a flag of truce and peace to discuss ways we could solve the salient issues, instead, the Resolution became became a sham, as eveything either side of the Letter incident had promised to do was never fulfilled at all, and demonstrated to me everyone's ability to lie to my face, and the announcement thread became a timebomb and a sacrificial alter in which a member was banned for events not related to the forum. This second one especially hurt me personally, because I felt (And yes, I know Z, You tell me I shouldn't, but I do) I was responsible for it happening, and I still do, because I saw the signs, and I knew that any miniscule excuse would have been enough to trigger that banhammer swing... I wish I could have stopped the thread back then, but hindsight is always 20/20, and now, I find that the level of misunderstanding and assumption has not changed one iota since that day...

And yet, all of what happened, all of it, was nothing but symptoms of another problem... Like the previous incident before it, this one stems from one important thing.

People refuse to actually accept divergent oppinions. This in itself is the internet's biggest shortfall. People forget that there are other people on the other end of the screen. It's easy to get steamed at a bunch of typed letters on a screen, because there is no actual confronting bitween people going on. There is no voice, no emotion, no tones, just typed words on a screen...

I'll post more later, but this appears to be the basic crux of many salient issues. There is obviously more complex components, which I will get into later, but the basic principle begins here, with basic understanding of what is happening, and what should be happening.

Indeed, Darkstorm. All of those fights could have been avoided.

Like I said earlier, we need to learn how to admit we're wrong, even if we're NOT wrong, so we can avoid problems like those we suffered in the past. It could have all been avoided.

It doesn't take the other person. It takes yourself. I think that's really important to remember.

well I suppose I can put my observations in here, though I've really not much to say that's not been said already, so bear with me. But do remember this is how I view it, so I may not be 100% accurate, but hey no one is 100% right all the time.

Believe it or not, I've been part of the Felarya community since 2008, surprising I know, but I can't say I'm the most active of fellows contribution-wise. What I did do however, was observe how things were going, and this stuff isn't old in the longest, I'll try not to go too into detail so as to not step on any toes, but if you were involved, you'll know what I'm talking about.

The first issue came about a few years ago, an issue I'll call "Case L". It was the first major case of drama that happened in the community, words were had, and people were hurt, but at the end of the day, it seemed like this had resolved themselves, yet it was not over yet, as the seeds of worry and distrust were set.

It was a period of decent peace after that, ideas were had and expanded upon, and Felarya was in a state of growth, but with that growth came those who only sought glory over expansion, and soon used Felarya as a mere stool to raise their self inserts and mary sues into the light of day, and I will tell you that those were bad times. Stories of canon characters getting their faces beat so the main character could befriend them, untouchables, 6 million foot tall super guardians, you get the picture. Case in point, it was bad.

The Felarya group came at around this time, and when this happened, the bad ideas just flowed in, and without moderation, many of the dedicated crafters of the community became jaded that the hard work and effort the put into the community was being ignored and bastardized because of these people who refused canon and decided Felarya was more a playground then a setting. Many left because of that, many wanted to inform the leadership of the problems, but after the events of "Case L" they were reluctant to do so because the results of that case were not so pretty, and they did not want to risk a similar scenario from playing out. So the community suffered in this time.

This brings us to the next major incident of drama, which for records I'll call "Operation Aussie Informer". In this point there was a community member who saw the problems at the time, and felt a need to bring them to light to do his best to help. He gathered those who had a similar mindset, and worked on uncovering all that plagued the community from the seedy streets, and show to the leadership to expose it. This was about the time I myself had become rather invested into the community, due to forming close friendships within it, and I took time to listen in on the events in this scenario, and I even tossed my input in once or twice. Things were going swimmingly, but there was some unrest boiling, and in the end the plan was enacted a bit early. The hope was that it would have been taken into consideration, but defensive nature hit instead, and rather then fixing things, Drama once more bubbled to the surface in it's rather disturbing and grusome visage. Though the intentions of this plan were pure, and hopeful to improve, many miscommunications led to accusations, both rational, and insultingly baseless, the accusations led to fighting, and more people despondantly left the community because of it.

Things were at a decline that this point, slow yes, but it was a decline, people were losing interest, or getting fed up with drama, and pulling out. Many people used this drama to their advantage and would slam critiquers with terms like "gatekeepers", and "elitists", which while they did have presence before these incidents, but post incident the use of these terms spiked since said terms were used during the incident and they stirred up a lot of drama. So if they used the terms, they would get the support of those who believed that those "elitists" and "gatekeepers" actually existed.

This brings us to our most recent noteworthy drama event, known to me as "operation angry Z". Now with this incident, there was a certain... Let's say abrasive... Member of the community, and though abrasiveness was his MO, he was still just as much an activist as he was an agressor. I listened to his speeches, and I understood his intentions were to bring light to the trouble much like "Aussie Informer" did, though in his method, he chose a highly aggressive method. Since I am a passive person, I thought that this tactic was a bit excessive and extreme, but I could tell his heart was in the right place, so once more, I watched. His fury was grand, and he did put a great fear into those who would abuse the community for their own gains, but like many who abuse in the name of justice, he was punished for his rage. The pity there more or less lies not in the fact that it happened, but that someone felt that was the only way that change would happen would be for one to go to such extremes, and that's a damn shame.

However despite all of this drama and misfortune that's befallen the community, recent acts that I have heard of have given me hope, the Felarya group is once more under moderation, and talks have being had, and I hope that these talks will have a positive outcome, for like many have said, communication is key here.

For Felarya to get out of this slump, there are a few things I see that will be neccisarry to facilitate a swift and healthy recovery from the drama.

*Communication: This is the number one most important thing. If a person has a problem, they should be able to present it to the leadership (and not just Karbo, any mod or admin) without fear that their presenting of the problem will end in a lynching. If you feel that a miscommunication is happening, bringing it up is best, a simple "hey could you explain this phrase more?" Will lead to much less stress and headache down the road, trust me on that one. It is also vital for the leadership to keep a keen eye for any potential problems, and try and talk to people so prevent problems before they can start.

*Resolving established problems: Ok I think it's clearly evident here that there are some problems in the community, we know some of them, some are a bit up in the air, and some of them may exist without us even knowing. Point is they have to be resolved, for if these problems exist in the foundation of the community, any attempts to build up and build around are going to collapse under those problems that are establishing a shoddy foundation.

*Focus on improvement: Nothing stagnates a community more then people thinking they don't have to improve, and if we constantly praise works, well people are gonna get that mindset. Not everyone of course, I do know Karbo is quite critical of his work, and the dreaded foot-beast haunts his dreams by saying "you can't draw me as well as other people.... woooooo" But back on topic, if people constantly strive to improve, the community improves.

*Encouagement: tied in with the previous point, critique is vital, no one will effectively improve without it. But a brazenly violent critique... Well that's just going to discourage people from improving at all. It's improtant to remember, we want good community members, we don't want a group of good writers who look like violent ogres to anyone with a new idea. If you think an idea is bad, then let them know, explain why it's bad, and what they can do to improve it, even if it's to start over. If the person listens to you, well good for them, but if they get in a huff and leave, well you can't say you didn't try to help.

*Wiki improvement: Well the wiki looks nice and all, but I'd say for the time being we should put a focus on improving what we have, get those empty character pages filled in, add a lore page (noticed that one early in the thread, score a point for the new kid). And do some tidying up. A strong wiki will lead to people having no excuse when they do the whole "well I didn't know where to find it" schtick)

*Tolerance: This is also very important, because let's face it, everyone's viewpoint is different, and their opinions will not always be the same as yours. so debate if you feel strongly about your opinion, but if the person stands by their stance, and they aren't going to change, well they're entitled to that opinion, but if you don't like it, well then I have to refer you to the cat, smoking crab, and cyan pegasus with the rainbow mane for what to do.


TL;DR: Stop being a lazy bum and read the post.

Prof.Nekko wrote:

*Communication: This is the number one most important thing. If a person has a problem, they should be able to present it to the leadership (and not just Karbo, any mod or admin) without fear that their presenting of the problem will end in a lynching. If you feel that a miscommunication is happening, bringing it up is best, a simple "hey could you explain this phrase more?" Will lead to much less stress and headache down the road, trust me on that one. It is also vital for the leadership to keep a keen eye for any potential problems, and try and talk to people so prevent problems before they can start.

Yes. People can always bring up the issues they're concerned about.

Quote :

*Resolving established problems: Ok I think it's clearly evident here that there are some problems in the community, we know some of them, some are a bit up in the air, and some of them may exist without us even knowing. Point is they have to be resolved, for if these problems exist in the foundation of the community, any attempts to build up and build around are going to collapse under those problems that are establishing a shoddy foundation.

Slightly vague, but ok. Part of the vagueness may be due to some issues perhaps not being out in the open? Though it seems to me they are by now.

Quote :

*Focus on improvement: Nothing stagnates a community more then people thinking they don't have to improve, and if we constantly praise works, well people are gonna get that mindset. Not everyone of course, I do know Karbo is quite critical of his work, and the dreaded foot-beast haunts his dreams by saying "you can't draw me as well as other people.... woooooo" But back on topic, if people constantly strive to improve, the community improves.

*nods*

Quote :

*Encouagement: tied in with the previous point, critique is vital, no one will effectively improve without it. But a brazenly violent critique... Well that's just going to discourage people from improving at all. It's improtant to remember, we want good community members, we don't want a group of good writers who look like violent ogres to anyone with a new idea. If you think an idea is bad, then let them know, explain why it's bad, and what they can do to improve it, even if it's to start over. If the person listens to you, well good for them, but if they get in a huff and leave, well you can't say you didn't try to help.

Yes, very much so.

Quote :

*Wiki improvement: Well the wiki looks nice and all, but I'd say for the time being we should put a focus on improving what we have, get those empty character pages filled in, add a lore page (noticed that one early in the thread, score a point for the new kid). And do some tidying up. A strong wiki will lead to people having no excuse when they do the whole "well I didn't know where to find it" schtick)

*nods* (We have a forum section for recommendations in that regard.)

Quote :

*Tolerance: This is also very important, because let's face it, everyone's viewpoint is different, and their opinions will not always be the same as yours. so debate if you feel strongly about your opinion, but if the person stands by their stance, and they aren't going to change, well they're entitled to that opinion, but if you don't like it, well then I have to refer you to the cat, smoking crab, and cyan pegasus with the rainbow mane for what to do.

Yes.

Those are good points... although I'm trying for myself - and out the community - to improve and experiment, communication is something that we haven't tried to improve - or at least, haven't tried hard enough. And I agree, improving the wiki could be good as well. I've seen that some entries had to be rewritten, let's focus on this improvement, so we have a solid source of information.

Just so I don't feel like I've been living under a rock, have any of these "incidents" or fights occurred while I've been here, i.e. the last six months or so? Or am I just hearing about a bunch of things that happened shortly before I joined?

All good points Nekko. I really need to improve as well, since I haven't helped much. I dont know where to begin to be honest.

all I can say is I'm sorry for making a lot of trouble last year and earlier this year.

I shouldn't have posted those topics and posts I did both here and on da.

anyway I personally think that the forums are just right now running slow especially since everyone (myself included) is busy with everything in real life along with having some trouble trying to get their ideas and stories made. I guess for now things are just going to run slow but I have a very good feeling things will get better.

on a side note my friend Bael has gone out on a roadtrip and I hope he has a good time and can't wait for him to return.

It's not dying actually most people have gone to MGU or Monster Girl Unlimited which has a link to this place and the wiki. Yeah a whole lot of people left this fanbase over the years, mostly because alot of people thought the Giant Preds were Mary-Sueish-which I must I say they kinda are- or because they didnt like the vore or the fact that most adventurers get eaten and die without a fight. I have to be honest even I left this site for a while. I'm probably the only guy to actually come back to this place in months, possibly even years.

To get back on topic, no it's dying-I truly doubt it will ever die-it's just seeing a low point in it's history. And I'm quite sure it will prop up back to the size it was before I came here.

BlackAion wrote:

It's not dying actually most people have gone to MGU or Monster Girl Unlimited which has a link to this place and the wiki.

This is the first time I hear of MGU, BlackAion. Maybe you're talking about why some other part of the community left, 'cause the one I know never mentioned it.

BlackAion wrote:

Yeah a whole lot of people left this fanbase over the years, mostly because alot of people thought the Giant Preds were Mary-Sueish-which I must I say they kinda are- or because they didnt like the vore or the fact that most adventurers get eaten and die without a fight.

Err, some people did that, but the part we mad about wasn't troubled because of the vore. It was because of... well, read the thread.

BlackAion wrote:

I have to be honest even I left this site for a while. I'm probably the only guy to actually come back to this place in months, possibly even years.

I... know another guy who came back after a year, actually.

BlackAion wrote:

To get back on topic, no it's dying-I truly doubt it will ever die-it's just seeing a low point in it's history. And I'm quite sure it will prop up back to the size it was before I came here.

Maybe, but size doesn't have to be a good thing. It's activity that people are concerned about. I don't care if we never grow back to that size, as long as we can do what we came here to do.


Either way, I think enough's been said already- and the last post before BlackAion's was on May 13. I'm locking this thread now.