On inu, and creative ownership in general

Hi, I'm rcs619. I've been a member of this community for seven years, actively contributing for about four of them.  Due to the fact that open discussion of this issue over on DA has been effectively censored, with all of the comments removed, at the behest of one of our very own forum mods, I decided to bring it over here. This topic is primarily about the changes that have been made to the inu over the last year or so, but is also more broadly about the rights of content creators within the community as a whole.

So, starting from the beginning. I created the inu. The idea had been batted around the community off and on for years, but I was the one who actually created a version of them that Karbo felt was correct enough for the setting to be considered canon. So they went in the wiki, and for a while, all was good.

A little over a year ago, I got a note on DA from Amaroq. In this note he sent me a revised inu article (apparently some random people around the forum suggested he revamp them) that was already about 90% done. This was the first time I'd ever heard about someone revamping my idea, and they start off by sending me something that is already nearly done instead of collaborating with me from the start. But, hey, I figured I'd work with him a little on it, so I humored him.

Over the course of our talks, four notes were sent (I can provide full copies as necessary).
- Amaroq -> Me: With his nearly-complete and totally unauthorized revamp.
- Me -> Amaroq: With a list of issues I had with his idea.
- Amaroq -> Me: With his reply, wherein he completely ignored my input on those issues, save for two that apparently other people besides me had issues with.
- Me -> Amaroq: Once again stressing issues I still had with the draft.

And then nothing. Amaroq never replied to me again, never said another word about it, and never even notified me when his revisions to the inu document were put into the wiki without my final approval. The crux of this issue revolves around my two major sticking points with his revisions, the only two I actually was still harping on in my last note to him.

1: Giant inu do not, and were never meant to exist. This is non-negotiable. I specifically designed inu to be only human-sized. I don't even like giant nekos, elves or humans, I'm sure not going to let one of my species be taken down that path too.

and 2: That inu have some kind of mysterious metaphysical link to other members of their pack that allows them to silently coordinate over long distances. This is also something I never intended. Why do they need a magic-wolfaboo soul-link? I even proposed the idea of them utilizing specialized scents or ultrasonic/infrasonic flutes or ocarinas for pack coordination. Things that they could sense, but no one else could. To me, this is far more interesting from a thematic standpoint, as it imparts an air of resourcefulness and ingenuity onto a species, instead of just giving them some magical sense at birth they never had to work for.

Now, removing these two issues should, well, be a non-issue. I created inu. They were my idea, so I should have some kind of final say in the process. If Karbo doesn't want me to add something he doesn't like to mermaids or nagas, I don't do it. Because I respect him as the original creator of said idea. It's this sort of mutual respect that collaborative settings are based on. If anyone can just go and overwrite anyone else's work because no one actually has any say in their own ideas... well that is madness. Why even come up with anything for this setting at all if someone can just come along and twist it into something else against your will at a later point in time?

This actually resulted in an interesting discussion over on DA between myself, and amaroq (with tyrantfang butting in eventually because, I don't know, he can't help himself I guess). Amaroq's entire argument is that because of the disclaimer I "don't own inu" and as such, my opinion of how they should be developed has zero say in anything (and yet somehow, his opinion has all the say, for some reason). I am effectively being locked out of my own creation while someone else gets free reign to do whatever they want with them. How is this right? How is this fair? And how is this respectful to a fellow community member?

The disclaimer was originally added due to people like Zoekin, Ravana and others who would leave the community for long periods of time. It was intended as an emergency tool, to be used in the event that someone couldn't be contacted, but their idea had to be altered for canon reasons. I may not contribute to the community any more. But I am still here. I still able to be contacted (as amaroq proved himself), and I am not going to just stand idly by and be walked all over. Because if they can do this to inu, they can do it to anything and to anyone. No idea is safe.

To further complicate matters, all discussion about this over on DA has effectively been censored, with Stabs having advised Shady-knight to hide all of the comments in the chain. Which is quite problematic in its own right.

Either way, I give 50/50 odds to this thread getting nuked too, but I had to at least try. I will be screencapping this one for sure.

Since I don't have any evidence to go on and have only heard one side of the story, I'm going to take this time to play a bit of Devil's advocate: Is it possible that your final note to Amaroq was not delivered properly by DA's note system? Or that a similar problem occurred to his reply to your last one? And that, because of this, he perhaps assumed you didn't have any problems with his proposition? I'm not saying this would absolve anyone of their alleged misdoings, but it would contribute to creating a solution to the problem if the reason for the problem was discovered. I know from experience that DA's note system has had some kinks in it for quite some time, and not just lately.

Hi, rcs619.

I never give the disclaimer a second look (for anyone interested, it's here). Still, Karbo himself said, and went on record as saying, that the intention of the disclaimer was never to force anyone to relinquish their ideas against their will. That's why it's voluntary, after all. You should be able to contact Karbo about those additions you feel so strongly about easily.

For the record, I didn't recommend Shady-Knight to hide the comment chain to "censor" anyone. I recommended him to hide the coment chain because it had been derailed from the subject of the blog post, into a rather misguided discussion about creative ownership and the extent of the disclaimer, which was only tangentially related to the post: the inus were a 'shameless plug' (Shady's words, not mine: you can look it up in the blog post), the chain was dominating the comment count of the blog post, and, I suspected, the comments section itself.

Since it was entirely Shady's prerrogative whether these comments were hidden or not, it's safe to assume he agreed with me.

Nyaha wrote:

Since I don't have any evidence to go on and have only heard one side of the story, I'm going to take this time to play a bit of Devil's advocate: Is it possible that your final note to Amaroq was not delivered properly by DA's note system? Or that a similar problem occurred to his reply to your last one? And that, because of this, he perhaps assumed you didn't have any problems with his proposition? I'm not saying this would absolve anyone of their alleged misdoings, but it would contribute to creating a solution to the problem if the reason for the problem was discovered. I know from experience that DA's note system has had some kinks in it for quite some time, and not just lately.

Maybe. I doubt it, but it's possible. In the interest of openness, I'll publish the note-chain here:
[Note: The First]

Quote :

Update on the Felaryan Inu article
from xXAmaroqXx
to rcs619
Hello there!

Soo, The Inu race in the Felaryan community has become more popular over the months and the community decided that it was time to turn them from a subspecies to a full species. I got approached to (re-)write the Inu article then. Imagined as a kind of a community project, there have been thoughts and ideas by some people gathered over several weeks to expand what was there.

Since you are the creator of the previous Inu article, we thought that it might be a matter of respect and appreciation of the previous work to send you the new suggested article so you can add your opinion on this, if you're willing to do that. It is still in development and will be subject to change, so it will not appear as the final product as you can read it here, since karbo decided to do the finalisation himself, but if you have any suggestions at this point, we will consider adding them.

You could find it on the Felarya Forum, but since I haven't seen you on there for a long amount of time, I added the article at the bottom of this PM.

greetings,
Amaroq

[What follows was his revised inu article, already very nearly done at the time of sending it to me. I won't include it in here for the sake of brevity, and because it's almost identical to what went up in the wiki in the end. I can certainly add it in if there's a call for it though]

[Note: The Second]

Quote :

Re: Update on the Felaryan Inu article
from rcs619
to xXAmaroqXx
Just going to bullet point as I go through the article.

1: Inu were never meant to be anthro. They're meant to be a counterpart to nekos (hence the naming convention). People who were nearly human, but not quite. If you want anthros in Felarya that's fine, but the difference is so extreme that they need to be another species. They wouldn't be inu, they'd be something else.

2: Inu were always intended to *only* be human-sized. That's kind of their point. Karbo left it vague with nekos and suddenly we've got giant ones, which is quite frankly dumb. Inu were meant to be a species that was only ever human-sized and thus share in a lot of their endeavors to survive.

3: Any sort of cross-breeding between inu and nekos is just as impossible as crossbreeding between either of them and humans. Its just something that doesn't really happen. The only two exceptions in all of Felarya are humans breeding with elves and fairies, which are 99% human and hyper-magical respectively.

4: Don't know if I like the magical psychic pack-link. This sort of coordination could be easily explained through their already enhanced senses. Being able to smell, and hear where their pack-mates are without necessarily having to have them in visual sight like humans. They could even use those senses in potentially creative ways. Using whistles or horns that produce ultrasonic sounds, for example. Humans and most other animals can't hear them, but they can, and they can use that to coordinate their movements. Using various types of smells for such things is also possible.

It seems like the magical psychic link only exists to make them act excessively stupid in regards to predators, which I can't say I approve of. Not wanting to leave a pack-mate behind is perfectly fine and normal. Running the rest of your pack off on a fool's errand into a situation that you cannot possibly win is just dumb. Like, humans using bright red tents out in the forest dumb.

5: Not necessarily related to the inu themselves, but a pet-peeve, tanks and armored vehicles are about the worst possible things you could use to move around in Felarya. They're big, loud, have very limited fuel supplies and generally do not do well in highly forested or jungle terrain. Considering than one or two people with rocket launchers can bring down or drive off just about any pred, moving around in a tank is just overkill. Better to be on your feet, mobile and able to hide in small places when you need to, than tied down to a 60 ton, gas-guzzling armored vehicle.

Rest of the bio looks pretty okay though.

[Note: The Third]

Quote :

Re: Update on the Felaryan Inu article
from xXAmaroqXx
to rcs619
alright I have send your opinion along with my thoughts to karbo. Here are my thoughts about what you said. Partially I agree with you, partially I dont.

1.
I heard that from a few people now and I suppose one could take out the anthros if needed.

2.
We agree about the tiny Inus, however, I would really want to keep the giant ones. Would be unfair to just let Nekos have all the big girls. Giant doggy girls are cute too! (Im a dog-person, naturally)
Fanboy stuff aside, why should Inus be unable to have giant versions, but all other races can? It makes little sense lore wise. Well, in my opinion.

3.
Thats your opinion, the high adaptability of Inus belonged to my concept though. It does not necessarily have to stay though. Lets see what others say about that.

4.
Your opinion vs. mine. Many people liked it and unlike your view, I dont see it as a silly way to make them behave in a certain way. You see this waaaaay too narrowed down on the negative. The idea is to have a pack to be able to act super coordinated or get along with each other really well and become able to shape super deep and emotional bonds as if they were partially one being. So I highly disagree with that opinion. Also, the community liked my version very much.

5
as you mentioned, that has nothing to do with Inus themselves and also I mentioned that stuff as an example, not as a given. besides, I dont think thats SUCH a bad idea, since there is not just giant sized stuff running around. Many people are too focused on the "One grab and kill" things, while completely neglecting smaller things that dont stand a chance against an armored vehicle or stuff like that but would easily take out fleshy targets on foot. Riding in a truck IS in some way safer than walking by foot. Depending on what threats you want to avoid. thats my view on felarya.

[Note: The Fourth]

Quote :

Re: Update on the Felaryan Inu article
from rcs619
to xXAmaroqXx
2: Because not every species should have a giant and/or tiny variant. Nekos are bad enough. For the longest time, giant nekos were strictly against the canon. They were human-sized only, and it was good. They had their stake in with humanity because they were both potentially on the menu. Then karbo made that giant neko for his vore comic and the floodgates opened. I'm against giant elves and giant humans too, really. They don't add anything interesting over their small counterparts besides being able to eat them.

4: I just think the magical-psychic-soulbond is silly and extraneous. It strays a bit too close to the sort of stupidity that Twilight and wolfaboos regularly do, with (in those cases) wolves being super deep and spiritual and bonded in a supernatural way. I just think there's more interesting ways to do it, such as the ultrasonic ocarinas, that don't rely on a "they just have a magical bond" explanation. Those sorts of bonds tend to be lazy plot devices, and remove some of the need for a species to be as resourceful on their own.

And that's the end of the note chain. By the end I'd conceeded all but those last two points, and I felt it was pretty clear that we weren't done discussing them yet. Apparently I was wrong.

I would love to be able to add the quotes from the DA thread where Amaroq waxed on and on about how little my opinion matters because I 'don't own inu' and how he 'sought out my opinion, but it was never binding', and so on. But those comments are now hidden. It appears to me that the only changes Amaroq actually made were to things that other people also disagreed with, while completely ignoring the things I said that he didn't like. You can kind of see it in the third note where he says "Your opinion vs. mine. Many people liked it and unlike your view, I dont see it as a silly way to make them behave in a certain way." My opinion on the subject doesn't actually matter to him, because *he* likes his own idea, and apparently so did some of the people he asked.

I just think this whole process was handled poorly, and done in a way to take advantage of the fact that I don't really contribute any more, and that a lot of people in this community still go out of their way to pre-judge me based on three year old events.

I'm just going to say, over the course of creative content. Since this universe is still being built up, i'm going to get the creative content thing out of the way. Technically Rcs it's an Idea that you did start but because you weren't actively participating, your compliance on the creation of this revision wasn't really a factor because well...You just weren't there. All these ideas are made on participation and discussion. From what i Understand, you have been busy for the past 3 years of non participation and also you seemed to have intentionally not wan't further involvement in felarya because of disinterest or other priorities correct? Which means you were no longer engaged in the idea that you started. And since it's an idea given on public notice for people to agree upon. Of course through time and results, it can and has changed.

However, I do give you credit for the lack of communication that corresponded between you and Amaroq. It was way mishandled, but if you guys have not heard from each other in awhile and you were serious about the revision, you would have contacted each other a lot sooner due to the waiting of weeks from the previous contact. Made a priority out of it. Same goes for Amaroq honestly, should have done the same instead of just assumed that you gave an OK go. Some more of "are you sure?" that comfortable assurance. One thing is that from what I understand. Is that because we're all giving information of lore and races to karbo, He actually has the final say on how ideas and what not are revisioned with execution. As stabs saids:

Stabs wrote:

I never give the disclaimer a second look (for anyone interested, it's here). Still, Karbo himself said, and went on record as saying, that the intention of the disclaimer was never to force anyone to relinquish their ideas against their will. That's why it's voluntary, after all. You should be able to contact Karbo about those additions you feel so strongly about easily.

This all counts on active participation to continue to have a say.

Now here's the thing, I actually would mind changing one of the two things that you said to the inu artical because one of your opinions, one of your points actually makes sense. (on the whole psychic thing) It could still be revisioned given that people like the idea and more importantly Karbo. Just your reaction was poorly executed and the momentum to do that now is like "what?". You haven't been around for years, You haven't even been around last year when you had a chance to have a say on the idea you originated, but now you all the sudden decide to show up because of a comment chain that one person rebuttal himself on to delete an unnecessary banter on a topic?

When really what you wanted to say that you were kept in the dark of all this due to miscommunication. Which I agree, could have been done better. Just make the point of discussion on that instead of an opinion or mishandling of what a person has done to you. I didn't really need to know Ama's say on this. The point is, is that you guys had a miscommunication and that you felt left out on and Idea your orginated. That would have been better for the thesis and overall general context of the discussion of topic you started.

To compliment what you said. Who cares the past of what a person has done. Think about what's happening now and how you can do something about it. Then plan for the future. So don't think about what people have done or are treating you. Come to think of it, most the people that treated you in opposition are mostly gone. There's just a lot of new people around that have different opinions on things presented to them (me included). It's why ama did a revision 90% of the way done because he felt strong that he could do something about it and be and active participant, a contributor on how it would be settled. The problem here is, that a year ago it seemed like you didn't care to want to have a say in your idea when there was a whole discussion on it's own talking about it. You just idled and waited instead of taking a peek if it really was that much of importance. You could have just messaged on here and say "hey guys i'm still around i'm just busy, but here's what i think..". I mean you should have known this was all going on? Why didn't you show up in here back then?

It's like a group project in school. If your there your stuff has a say even if propositioned the idea of the project. Come 2 weeks and you haven't showed up, people are left to themselves and their own devices on what to do to add your thoughtful idea. Which Karbo only had ama as the biggest push so yeah most of his concepts and ideas got in because he was there and because he was engaging.

Regardless if you still want to make a few points on Inu's Then go back and find the discussion, make a comment and see what karbo and people react to your proposition. See how that turns out.

The fact of the matter is, active participation should not matter as long as the person is able to be contacted. If amaroq couldn't get ahold of me, or I'd said "I just don't want to have anything to do with this," that would be something entirely different. The co-opting of someone else's idea should only be done in the most extreme circumstances, or if they completely divorce themselves of it first. I was still around, people were able to contact me, and I cared enough to give my thoughts and participate in the discussion. So I still get final say on the inu and their changes. They are still mine.

I'm just not down with this active participation excuse I keep getting. It's just a bunch of gatekeeping, clubhouse bullshit being used as an excuse to try and push older creators out of the way. Do you even understand how disrespectful it sounds to go "I know you helped out around here for years, and I know you still care enough about the setting and your own ideas to offer feedback... buuuuuut, you haven't actively contributed within some arbitrary timeframe, so your opinion doesn't matter, and your idea is no longer your idea." Not only is it a terrible precedent, but it is actively shitting all over the people who helped build this community in the first place.

Quote :

but now you all the sudden decide to show up because of a comment chain

I decided to show up "all of a sudden" because the inu article was linked in the DA journal and I decided to take a look on a whim That was the first time I realized it had actually been changed against my will. I figured amaroq just gave up on it the last time. I wouldn't rubber-stamp his changes, so he decided to move on to something else. I didn't actually think he was enough of a self-centered ass to go and push through canon changes on someone else's idea specifically against their wishes. That's unprecedented within the community as far as I know.

And that's really what this is about, precedent. Just because we have fallings out, and just because we stop actively contributing, that doesn't mean we aren't still around and it doesn't mean we completely stopped caring about this setting. We deserve as much respect as any active, current member. A community that doesn't respect its older generations is one doomed to fail.

Quote :

It's like a group project in school.

Felarya overall is like a group project in school. Individual ideas though, those belong to the people who made them unless they are just completely gone or removed from them. It's a community-built world made up of individual peoples' ideas. That's why you're supposed to get explicit permission before you use someone else's ideas or characters, and respect their decision one way or the other. Or that used to be the rule. Maybe that's changed too.

And I've already made my points about inu. Two very specific ones I'm not just going to necro an ancient thread just for that, lol. That's just poor forum etiquette.
1: No goofy metaphysical emotional-bond.
2: No giant inu.

welll if not giant inu how about tiny inus. so much cuteness

Thywolf wrote:

welll if not giant inu how about tiny inus. so much cuteness

I guess size is not really that big of a matter. People can write or draw inus as tinies or giantesses, and make reasons that are nice enough to accept.

By the way, can someone make a good reason for me to see why inus should not have giant size, or tiny size? The same for inu's ability to guess emotion?

Thywolf wrote:

welll if not giant inu how about tiny inus. so much cuteness

Tiny inus actually make less sense. We have neera. They're mouse-people, they're tiny, that makes sense. Why the hell would we have micro-inu too. What next, micro-nekos?

I know, why don't we have giant neera who are the size of humans, and micro-neera who are as tiny to regular neera as humans are to giants. Do you see the madness that pops up when you start acting like every species needs to have a giant and tiny variant? Some things should only be one size.

tkh1304 wrote:

Thywolf wrote:

welll if not giant inu how about tiny inus. so much cuteness

I guess size is not really that big of a matter. People can write or draw inus as tinies or giantesses, and make reasons that are nice enough to accept.

By the way, can someone make a good reason for me to see why inus should not have giant size, or tiny size? The same for inu's ability to guess emotion?

First of all... tinies or giantesses? That kind of automatic assumption is part of the reason this community has so many issues Male giants are at least as numerically common as the female ones, even if so few people are actually comfortable including them in anything.

Second of all, besides the neera example I used above... What about author intent? That's not actually a good enough reason? The fact that the person who made them saying "Hey, I never meant for there to be giant inu when I made this species"? It's just not what they were meant to be. There are no giant, naked dog-girls trouncing around the forest preying on idiots who sleep in bright red tents. Deal with it and move on.

rcs619 wrote:

Male giants are at least as numerically common as the female ones, even if so few people are actually comfortable including them in anything.

Er...what does that have to do with anything? That seems a little off-topic.

rcs619 wrote:

First of all... tinies or giantesses? That kind of automatic assumption is part of the reason this community has so many issues Male giants are at least as numerically common as the female ones, even if so few people are actually comfortable including them in anything.

Second of all, besides the neera example I used above... What about author intent? That's not actually a good enough reason? The fact that the person who made them saying "Hey, I never meant for there to be giant inu when I made this species"? It's just not what they were meant to be. There are no giant, naked dog-girls trouncing around the forest preying on idiots who sleep in bright red tents. Deal with it and move on.

First, we should turn Felarya into a world of yuri predators and preys, if it hasn't been moved toward that direction with writers and artists' habit to create more girls than guys.

Second, your reason interpreted by me is "I don't like that, so you cannot make that". People would really respect your author intention, some with a frown, if only you're still the owner.

By giving the disclaimer to Karbo and his Felarya, you're no longer the owner of inu. The best you have now is the title 'founder of the inu', which may still have big influence to change Karbo's mind, who is the current owner of inu.

In the end, whether you like it or not, it's Karbo who gives the final decision about what to do with the inu. Remove this or that, add this or that. So claiming ownership on something you already agreed with the disclaimer (well, it's DIS-claimer, meaning you can no longer claim it as  your own, aside from being credited to), is pretty much invalid.

People still tried to contact you due to respect, while they have the right to do it without. Their efforts were in vain due to your hiatus, which led to this current mess.

That's what I think.

rcs619 wrote:

The fact of the matter is, active participation should not matter as long as the person is able to be contacted. If amaroq couldn't get ahold of me, or I'd said "I just don't want to have anything to do with this," that would be something entirely different. The co-opting of someone else's idea should only be done in the most extreme circumstances, or if they completely divorce themselves of it first. I was still around, people were able to contact me, and I cared enough to give my thoughts and participate in the discussion. So I still get final say on the inu and their changes. They are still mine.

Actually it kind of does through the precendents of time in all of our humanity. If you wish not to engage your contribution isn't required. Since it's again an idea It can be built upon and tweaked by the overseer of the one managing and collecting an idea. If he thinks an idea is good then he can do that with new information given to him. You already agreed with him back then that, that was the case through the disclaimer about anything but characters. And even that i disagree because people like you that choose not to come back and want some territory where there doesn't need to be territory for others to improve on is a gatekeeping itself. no one is being pushed away if you are adding on to or revising an idea and the person organizing it agrees. You can't shit on something if it's being added on or simplified. but i'll give you this, the original creator needs to be given a notice of some sort that this is happening to their idea so they can be in the know how and have a say on it. If they choose to neglect it, fate is on karbo.

rcs619 wrote:

I'm just not down with this active participation excuse I keep getting. It's just a bunch of gatekeeping, clubhouse bullshit being used as an excuse to try and push older creators out of the way. Do you even understand how disrespectful it sounds to go "I know you helped out around here for years, and I know you still care enough about the setting and your own ideas to offer feedback... buuuuuut, you haven't actively contributed within some arbitrary timeframe, so your opinion doesn't matter, and your idea is no longer your idea." Not only is it a terrible precedent, but it is actively shitting all over the people who helped build this community in the first place.

Noted and replied on.

rcs619 wrote:

Quote :

but now you all the sudden decide to show up because of a comment chain

I decided to show up "all of a sudden" because the inu article was linked in the DA journal and I decided to take a look on a whim That was the first time I realized it had actually been changed against my will. I figured amaroq just gave up on it the last time. I wouldn't rubber-stamp his changes, so he decided to move on to something else. I didn't actually think he was enough of a self-centered ass to go and push through canon changes on someone else's idea specifically against their wishes. That's unprecedented within the community as far as I know.

I know i know already said it's poor communication. I agree.

rcs619 wrote:

And that's really what this is about, precedent. Just because we have fallings out, and just because we stop actively contributing, that doesn't mean we aren't still around and it doesn't mean we completely stopped caring about this setting. We deserve as much respect as any active, current member. A community that doesn't respect its older generations is one doomed to fail.

We take respect with what they done to improve on their old works. If you don't say anything at all and then return say six years later to find your idea twisted it's not like we can't exactly hold that if someone else comes up with a better addition to the idea. You have to respect the creative freedom of the new people that do nothing but build upon your idea that you willingly and voluntarily (whether for fun or because this is what you imagine could happen in felarya.) karbo decides he likes it, he'll put it in. Additions added by newer people that greatly amplify is all up to him as well. But i dare say there's no disrespect for building upon a older member's idea. The only disrespect I see is that they weren't well informed that this is the change that happened to the idea they built upon. But alas a third time. Due to miscommunication and purposeful neglect on both sides.

rcs619 wrote:

Quote :

It's like a group project in school.

Felarya overall is like a group project in school. Individual ideas though, those belong to the people who made them unless they are just completely gone or removed from them. It's a community-built world made up of individual peoples' ideas. That's why you're supposed to get explicit permission before you use someone else's ideas or characters, and respect their decision one way or the other. Or that used to be the rule. Maybe that's changed too.

No those were originated by the people who made them. And can be built upon through karbo's desire As TKH and Stabs has pointed out should the chance arise. And if this is really the case to where i have to ask permission for an idea. Then what's to say of the person dies or never comes back. Is the idea just going to be sitting in a development hell in the wiki? No chance for change, no chance for grandeur or improvment of creativity from another? Is it just going to remain the static quo like most the ideas are now? littering the wiki and the lore of the world because someone has to feel entitled to have their idea the way it was meant to be, it should be?  In my opinion that is total disrespect for the creative atmosphere and in a way, gate keeping itself.. I always thought that the idea essentially belongs to karbo, and if he finds it appropriate, to fit his modify and impliment it in his setting to his wishes. As for characters I knew wasn't the case, but that's being talked about getting a revision as well for the sake of the proposed retcon. So are you going to be so egotistical that no one can touch your idea unless you have a say in something you don't really care about. or should i say.The Few things to care about in a long while to satisfy your idea, your creative rights. Again I agree that the creator should be notified, just not have a super hold on the idea itself. That should always be left up to karbo because it is his world.

rcs619 wrote:

And I've already made my points about inu. Two very specific ones I'm not just going to necro an ancient thread just for that, lol. That's just poor forum etiquette.
1: No goofy metaphysical emotional-bond.
2: No giant inu.

Two things. There's no poor etiquette in referencing something in the past. It actually gives me better insight on your opinion then leaving it. Second, i already read it and know this. Like is Said before "I agree on one of the points" Not so much the there being no giants of other races. Though you might be right that if you had giants of those, the giant atmosphere may be more cluttered but i would like you to expound more on that to convince me otherwise other than reason I and you said. What does it actually do to depreciate the creative vaule of the setting and the reason of why?

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Second, your reason interpreted by me is "I don't like that, so you cannot make that". People would really respect your author intention, some with a frown, if only you're still the owner.

A more accurate interpretation would be "I don't want that, and never intended that, for an idea that I originally created. So you shouldn't be able to do that specifically against my will." It's actually got a bit more nuance to it than you give me credit for.

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By giving the disclaimer to Karbo and his Felarya, you're no longer the owner of inu. The best you have now is the title 'founder of the inu', which may still have big influence to change Karbo's mind, who is the current owner of inu.

I feel like I need to point out again, that that's not why the disclaimer was originally implemented. I was there when it happened. It was a response to several older community members (zoekin, ravana, wowandwas and others) falling off the face of the Earth and leaving their ideas in limbo during a time we were sprucing up the wiki. The disclaimer was added so that future ideas could be poked or rejiggered if need be, should the original creator be completely out of the loop.

It was not, and was never intended to just allow Karbo or anyone else to completely change someone's idea on a whim. With the inu it's only a couple things, but going by the interpretation amaroq and you guys keep parroting, that is literally the power you're giving. Any idea can be changed in any way at any time by executive decision, regardless of, or outright against, the original creator of that idea.

Can't you see how completely insane that sounds? And once again, that sort of system only works when it's someone else's idea on the chopping block. I suspect a great many of you would not act so smug about it if it was your own.

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Their efforts were in vain due to your hiatus, which led to this current mess.

I literally responded to everything sent to me until the guy sending it stopped talking about it and went away. What else was I supposed to do, lol? I'm not going to baby someone every step of the way if they don't have enough initiative or respect to keep in contact with me about changes to one of my own ideas. I figured he'd gone off to do something else when he realized I wasn't just going to rubber-stamp his changes (and going by his reactions and his views on the disclaimers, a rubber-stamp was all he was looking for).

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was the case through the disclaimer about anything but characters. And even that i disagree because people like you that choose not to come back and want some territory where there doesn't need to be territory for others to improve on is a gatekeeping itself.

Yes, yes, be an active part of our little club or get the hell out of our way. It's a point that has been parroted at me quite a few times through all of this and it still doesn't stop sounded any less selfish, childish and disrespectful. This isn't the mafia lol. People are more than free to come and go, contribute or not contribute as they see fit, and they should also have the reasonable expectation that their ideas won't get co-opted by someone they barely know when they aren't looking.

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If you don't say anything at all and then return say six years later to find your idea twisted it's not like we can't exactly hold that if someone else comes up with a better addition to the idea.

Yes, if they were gone for six years and were never able to be reached once about it. A situation that is literally completely different from the one we find ourselves in now

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Then what's to say of the person dies or never comes back. Is the idea just going to be sitting in a development hell in the wiki? No chance for change, no chance for grandeur or improvment of creativity from another? Is it just going to remain the static quo like most the ideas are now? littering the wiki and the lore of the world

Once again, a completely different situation than we find ourselves in, and one I mentioned that the disclaimer was designed to deal with You're conflating two very different situations here. I'm not sure if it's because you don't really understand the nuances, or if you're trying to be misleading. Either way, it's completely irrelevant.

If you can't get ahold of them in a reasonable amount of time, and there is no other choice, that's one thing. If you contacted them, they told you "alright, but I really don't like this and that" and you decide just to do this and that anyway, explicitly against their wishes, that is something else entirely. I didn't die, I never fully left, and I was never unable to be contacted.

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but i would like you to expound more on that to convince me otherwise other than reason I and you said. What does it actually do to depreciate the creative vaule of the setting and the reason of why?

You aren't amaroq, and you aren't Karbo. I don't have to go out of my way to elaborate on something to your satisfaction I never intended for giant inu to exist, and I never wanted them to. It goes against what I designed them to be as a species, and I did design them. That should be good enough for anyone.

Ok first, kindly refrain from insults please.

rcs619 wrote:

The disclaimer was originally added due to people like Zoekin, Ravana and others who would leave the community for long periods of time. It was intended as an emergency tool, to be used in the event that someone couldn't be contacted, but their idea had to be altered for canon reasons. I may not contribute to the community any more. But I am still here. I still able to be contacted (as amaroq proved himself), and I am not going to just stand idly by and be walked all over. Because if they can do this to inu, they can do it to anything and to anyone. No idea is safe.

Err well that's your assumption. The disclaimer is actually in place for a whole set of different reasons.

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So I still get final say on the inu and their changes. They are still mine.

No. Like others pointed, you are not the Inu's owner. You agreed to that when you agreed with the disclaimer.

An idea can be changed or altered although, when the changes are significant, it's made with the collaboration of the original author. It happened many times over the course of the years and each time it went perfectly smoothly.
In this particular case though, I remember a long back and forth between you and Amaroq, and the new version being rewritten many times but with agreements found on the way. IF you were made unaware of the final version, a notion I find surprising since everything was out on the open in the forum and Amaroq made a point to update regularly his thread, then it's a problem and I'm going to work with the both of you to find a solution and a compromise.
Having said that, I don't think you're in a position to make demands. You suddenly come back guns blazing, make a mess in the chatroom, throws insults around, after having made clear you despise the community at large.. You can't exactly expect to be warmly welcomed or people to be cooperative.
I also question whether you are acting in good faith here or you are more here to cause a good stir, and provoke Amaroq because he rubbed you the wrong way on DA.

In any case we're going to work toward a solution and rephrase things in the article to find a middle ground.

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An idea can be changed or altered although, when the changes are significant, it's made with the collaboration of the original author.

You might want to make sure Amaroq knows that next time. I believe his exact words when I said that same sort of thing were "This was never an offer to collaborate with you. I came for your opinions, but they were never binding in any way."

He never meant it to be a collaborate effort. He wanted me to rubber-stamp an idea that he'd already almost finished. He kept the things I agreed with or let him have, and he just decided to ignore the opinions he didn't like because this wasn't a collaboration in his eyes and nothing I said had any sort of sway in any way.

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In this particular case though, I remember a long back and forth between you and Amaroq, and the new version being rewritten many times but with agreements found on the way

I think you're confusing two different events. Amaroq did try to add a bunch of junk onto the inu once before. This was back when I was active on the forum and there was a long back-and-forth on the topic before he finally just decided to drop it all and go away.

In this case though, the entirely of myself and Amaroq's back and forth on the topic is contained in those four notes. He never contacted me in any other way, or said anything else on the topic. When he didn't reply, I assumed he'd just given up and gone off to do something else like the last time.

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IF you were made unaware of the final version, a notion I find surprising since everything was out on the open in the forum and Amaroq made a point to update regularly his thread

I was never linked to a forum thread, and quite honestly a forum thread would have been irrelevant anyway. I don't design my ideas by committee. Either they fit with my intention, or they don't. I'm not going to leave my ideas up to the community to edit and change because I do not trust that community to handle them responsibly. (which the addition of giant inu has proven completely and 100% correct)

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Having said that, I don't think you're in a position to make demands. You suddenly come back guns blazing, make a mess in the chatroom, throws insults around, after having made clear you despise the community at large.. You can't exactly expect to be warmly welcomed or people to be cooperative.
I also question whether you are acting in good faith here or you are more here to cause a good stir, and provoke Amaroq because he rubbed you the wrong way on DA.

See, that's something you used to do that still bugs me. If someone doesn't match your arbitrary level of civility, you seem to think that their points don't have merit, or you start to dismiss them as someone 'just here to cause a stir or provoke people'.

I honestly don't care if I'm welcomed warmly. I've come to expect that people around here are going to pre-judge everything I do based on three year old drama (and stories recounting said drama). That's been pretty clear since the moment I came back here. If people want to throw ancient history back in my face, that's fine. I know who I am, and I know how I've changed and grown as a person. They don't

rcs619 wrote:

In this case though, the entirely of myself and Amaroq's back and forth on the topic is contained in those four notes. He never contacted me in any other way, or said anything else on the topic. When he didn't reply, I assumed he'd just given up and gone off to do something else like the last time.

I was never linked to a forum thread, and quite honestly a forum thread would have been irrelevant anyway. I don't design my ideas by committee. Either they fit with my intention, or they don't. I'm not going to leave my ideas up to the community to edit and change because I do not trust that community to handle them responsibly. (which the addition of giant inu has proven completely and 100% correct)

I don't believe this should serve as an excuse to entirely put the blame on Amaroq, dude. We're talking about a year since he created the idea.

If you care so much for your idea that you would want to fight for it publicly, then why *now*?
You're telling me that when a discussion about something you care about suddenly goes silent, you immediately assume the best? You don't take half a minute to check the forum? Nothing else was going on when Ama had been creating the thread for the Inu, it was the only Ideas topic that was actually active.
You didn't take 20 seconds to check about something you care for after radio silence.... do you actually care?

rcs619 wrote:

'just here to cause a stir or provoke people'.

I honestly don't care if I'm welcomed warmly. I've come to expect that people around here are going to pre-judge everything I do based on three year old drama (and stories recounting said drama). That's been pretty clear since the moment I came back here. If people want to throw ancient history back in my face, that's fine. I know who I am, and I know how I've changed and grown as a person. They don't

Errr, prejudice? To be frank man, I'm pretty sure the majority of people forgot about you.
And the thing is, even if there is lingering prejudice... you immediately confirmed it all when you first came back onto the forum.
You DID intentionally provoke Amaroq - multiple times, in fact. You insulted him,  the entire community, individual members such as Shady and Stabs.
You hold a smug attitude - repeatedly claiming you're "in the right" and "won already", that your victory is assured.
You ignored multiple warnings from a moderator asking for both parties - you and Ama - to be quiet. You're fully aware of Amaroq's temper, but you kept pressing.

It's not pre-judging - it's witnessing and reacting. Again, you didn't do anything calmly regarding the forum. *this* is where meaty chunks of ideas are discussed and created. Including the thing you're currently fighting over, the Inu article. If you had approached us and had remained even remotely reasonable, rather than acting as a smug conqueror, you wouldn't be pressed back.

"I've changed" For sure, but your reactions to issues remains much of the same. You just traded bitterness with faux happiness.


You have a good point, for me as well I don't think the psychic connection is necessary, and it does seem a bit strange. But you ruin your own fight with your attitude.

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You're telling me that when a discussion about something you care about suddenly goes silent, you immediately assume the best?

Uhh... yeah? I assumed that since I didn't give him approval to change my idea, he'd decided to go poke at his own stuff. I didn't expect him to push through changes specifically against my will, lol. That would be amazingly disrespectful and slightly unprecedented.

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You insulted him

I called amaroq "an idiot" once in the chatbox. Whooptidoo.

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the entire community,

No, just most of it. There are some gems here and there, but I stand by my guns that most of the community is actually terrible. This is nothing new, or the fault of current members. It's always been that way.

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individual members such as Shady and Stabs.

Okay, Stabs I did actually insult. But only after he kept repeatedly trying to throw three year old ancient history in my face. So I threw some ancient history back in his too

Shady, I only ever called "spineless" and "a coward" because he hid my comment chain. I'll stand by that too. Hiding comments and/or blocking people is a coward's tactic and only succeeds in sweeping a problem under the rug to make it worse later. Transparency, openness, communication, that's how you solve issues like this

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You hold a smug attitude - repeatedly claiming you're "in the right" and "won already", that your victory is assured.

Because I am, and it may or may not already be.

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You're fully aware of Amaroq's temper, but you kept pressing.

I don't know anything about amaroq personally. He never yelled, he never used all caps. I assumed he was taking this as calmly as I was. He's some guy I butt heads with every now and then, lol, I've never much cared enough to learn any more about him.

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"I've changed" For sure, but your reactions to issues remains much of the same. You just traded bitterness with faux happiness.

I'm actually quite happy, thank you very much. I've got my life in order and things are going fine.

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But you ruin your own fight with your attitude.

Yes, yes. I didn't say please and thank you and bow my head to everyone on the forum so I've got an 'attitude' that you all hate. lol, get over yourselves. That faux civility argument was always something I really disliked around here. If you aren't within some arbitrary standard of someone else's 'civility' your opinions don't matter and you're just causing trouble. It's just a way to deflect and distort an issue, instead of actually looking at the facts.

rcs wrote:

Yes, yes. I didn't say please and thank you and bow my head to everyone on the forum so I've got an 'attitude' that you all hate. lol, get over yourselves. That faux civility argument was always something I really disliked around here. If you aren't within some arbitrary standard of someone else's 'civility' your opinions don't matter and you're just causing trouble. It's just a way to deflect and distort an issue, instead of actually looking at the facts.

It isn't exactly arbitrary. It's well defined in many books that teach children good manners, and further constituted by how people interact with and influence eachother in daily life. Even professional debators know that having a base level of courtesy toward everyone involved in the issue prevents the dilution of an argument's core points. Yes, people are using your foul attitude to deflect from the points your making, and that's because you're letting them.

rcs619 wrote:

Second of all, besides the neera example I used above... What about author intent? That's not actually a good enough reason? The fact that the person who made them saying "Hey, I never meant for there to be giant inu when I made this species"? It's just not what they were meant to be. There are no giant, naked dog-girls trouncing around the forest preying on idiots who sleep in bright red tents. Deal with it and move on.

So you ever intended for there to be giant inus. Someone else decided to make them. Deal with it, and move on.


The psychic connection could be changed to able to pick up on slight emotional cues via subconcious body language

For all those, including RCS, that interprete the Inus to have a magical psychic ability to read minds or have telepathy or whatever, please re-read what is stated on the wiki page:

Wiki article wrote:

Fights for dominance remain rare though, because regardless of its hierarchic structure, a pack stays together most of the time and develops an invisible, instinctive bond between each individual. It's hard to properly define the nature of that connexion but it clearly exists, allowing for different members of the same pack to display an astounding amount of coordination, that especially shine when they are hunting. However, once cut off from their pack, an inu usually misses that bond and can easily become affected by solitude and loneliness. When asked, an inu will often compare their feelings to the ones many human people experience in a relationship between lovers or mother and child where the condition of one can be sensed by the other over distances. This ability to form bonds differs greatly from individual to individual though, and it does not appear to be influenced by breed or subspecies. There are, in fact, many inus that completely lack that kind of instinct and are often found as going through life as lone wolves.

First of all, it is clearly stated that it is an instinctual thing, not a magical one. Psychic abilities are categorized under magic, and I made clear that Inus usually are far from being natural magic users, relying on more physical methods to solve problems. Even the Inu Dalia, who is known for being a professional enchantress, isnt very good at that job compared to let's say Fairies, Elves and Reynke, and more or less makes inferior copies of magical artifacts she reverse engineered before.

Also, Dogs, and many other animals, are well able to sense someones emotional state when when it is not obvious to the naked eye, and may change their behaviour appropriately, such as a pet coming to cuddle its owner when they feel down.
Secondly, and this is the important part, It is clearly stated above that the bond is like that of mother and child. A familiar one. Now the internet and the world as a whole - the REAL world - is full of stories where a mother can and will be aware if something is up with her child. Personally I believe in such a possibility to at least be partially true, and I tried to adapt it to the Inu. And even there I said that this ability varies greatly from Inu to Inu and might barely or not be existant at all.

I do not understand at all how people can read psychic magic powers into this, especially since Felarya already HAS psychic powers defined, as can be seen here: http://www.felarya.com/wiki/index.php?title=Magic#Psionic

Amaroq wrote:

For all those, including RCS, that interprete the Inus to have a magical psychic ability to read minds or have telepathy or whatever, please re-read what is stated on the wiki page:

Wiki article wrote:

Fights for dominance remain rare though, because regardless of its hierarchic structure, a pack stays together most of the time and develops an invisible, instinctive bond between each individual. It's hard to properly define the nature of that connexion but it clearly exists, allowing for different members of the same pack to display an astounding amount of coordination, that especially shine when they are hunting. However, once cut off from their pack, an inu usually misses that bond and can easily become affected by solitude and loneliness. When asked, an inu will often compare their feelings to the ones many human people experience in a relationship between lovers or mother and child where the condition of one can be sensed by the other over distances. This ability to form bonds differs greatly from individual to individual though, and it does not appear to be influenced by breed or subspecies. There are, in fact, many inus that completely lack that kind of instinct and are often found as going through life as lone wolves.

First of all, it is clearly stated that it is an instinctual thing, not a magical one. Psychic abilities are categorized under magic, and I made clear that Inus usually are far from being natural magic users, relying on more physical methods to solve problems. Even the Inu Dalia, who is known for being a professional enchantress, isnt very good at that job compared to let's say Fairies, Elves and Reynke, and more or less makes inferior copies of magical artifacts she reverse engineered before.

Also, Dogs, and many other animals, are well able to sense someones emotional state when when it is not obvious to the naked eye, and may change their behaviour appropriately, such as a pet coming to cuddle its owner when they feel down.
Secondly, and this is the important part, It is clearly stated above that the bond is like that of mother and child. A familiar one. Now the internet and the world as a whole - the REAL world - is full of stories where a mother can and will be aware if something is up with her child. Personally I believe in such a possibility to at least be partially true, and I tried to adapt it to the Inu. And even there I said that this ability varies greatly from Inu to Inu and might barely or not be existant at all.

I do not understand at all how people can read psychic magic powers into this, especially since Felarya already HAS psychic powers defined, as can be seen here: http://www.felarya.com/wiki/index.php?title=Magic#Psionic

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Also, Dogs, and many other animals, are well able to sense someones emotional state when when it is not obvious to the naked eye, and may change their behaviour appropriately, such as a pet coming to cuddle its owner when they feel down.

That's achieved through purely biological means though. Dogs are actually able to smell a variety of emotions due to the various hormones and chemicals they release within (or on the outside) of the body. Dogs also have a very powerful sense for body language as well, and with their hearing they're also extremely responsive to vocal tone. It also doesn't work at long distances.

The issue was that in its current form, it made it seem like inu were able to coordinate complex actions silently over long distances out of direct line of sight. That sort of thing would pretty much require a psychic/metaphysical link of some kind. Since no other forms of communication/coordination are actually mentioned, it makes it seem as if their bonds are the main driving force behind their pack coordination.

Okay, so this thread has A LOT of text flying around, so its really hard to read everything and respond to everything correctly, so I'll give my two cents, even though Karbo said what really needed to be said anyway.

rcs619 wrote:

The disclaimer was originally added due to people like Zoekin, Ravana and others who would leave the community for long periods of time. It was intended as an emergency tool, to be used in the event that someone couldn't be contacted, but their idea had to be altered for canon reasons. I may not contribute to the community any more. But I am still here. I still able to be contacted (as amaroq proved himself), and I am not going to just stand idly by and be walked all over. Because if they can do this to inu, they can do it to anything and to anyone. No idea is safe.

This is not true. The disclaimer is there to prevent people from taking all their ideas with them when they left. People had to agree with the disclaimer at one point, or let their article get removed. When you agreed to the disclaimer, you handed all rights and ownership over to Karbo, end of discussion. You are credited as the creator, but have no say over it anymore.

Then you left, for reasons I shall not bring up again, and only now show your face, claiming it is your idea. It is not your idea anymore, you created it but passed ownership. You have no right to complain about it, and the inu article needed to be revamped, and you weren't here. So Amaroq wrote it, and Karbo liked it.

I'm sorry, but basically you cant do anything about this. I know its hard, but that's what it means to agree to the disclaimer, and have your article in the wiki. Congratulations.

That is, indeed, the official reason for why the disclaimer is there, Bael.

Karbo wrote:

This means the idea will, indeed, no longer be yours. A person relinquishing ownership of an idea, has no longer have any control on it and I can do what I see fit with it in total freedom.

Not over though. Karbo has gone on record as promising good faith in dealing with creative differences, and has specifically, explicitly, named article rewrites.

Karbo wrote:

Having said that, this is not how I do things and I'm never going to make any important modifications on an idea without consulting the author first.

It's been quite a long time since I saw you RCS. It's nice to see you came back, though I'm saddened that there's been some dispute over creative ideas. I also feel bad that I didn't see this topic until now.

I don't want to inflame the issue, as you and Karbo are definitely level headed guys. I'm very sure that any dispute that occurred between you and the disclaimer was not made out of any malicious intent, right? Like Karbs said earlier, I'm sure there can be a middle ground found. After all, he hasn't been making radical changes to them without at least contacting you, right?

I just hate to see friends fighting.

Alright an agreement has been reached. The article will be modified to a version that satisfy both Amaroq and rcs619.

Hopefully we can now put this issue to rest.