Using other people's characters

I know what the official stance on this is, it's 'you can't use other's characters unless you get the owner's permission'. But there's at least one character owner that seems to have vanished - Zoekin, who owns Katrika/Nix/Velvet/Tanya/Sonya/Markie, has deleted their deviantart account and hasn't been on here for five years. So, under the current rule, that means that unless someone wants to really hunt them down, those characters can't be used at all. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were more authors that've wiped their hands of this.

I get the point of the rule - nobody wants to see their character be mishandled by someone who can't write them. But at the same time, it does seem a bit against the idea of a shared world if everyone is just off in their own little corners.

So, does anyone have any ideas on revising that rule, or think that it even needs to be revised in the first place?

...Also, as a side note, is there an exception to the rule when it comes to using Karbo's characters like Crisis/Anna/Lea/etc? They're kind of the core characters of the world, but at the same time, they're still their characters. I'm fairly certain I've read something somewhere that said 'Karbo is basically okay with anything', but I don't want to accidentally step on their, or anyone else's, toes by writing their character(s) in a way that wasn't intended.

Zoekin's a bit hard to hunt down, but you can still hunt 'em down. We don't have any dead/missing contributors in the wiki as of right now.

Karbo is sometimes okay with asking forgiveness instead of permission, but that would still be a nasty thing to do.

Stabs wrote:

Zoekin's a bit hard to hunt down, but you can still hunt 'em down. We don't have any dead/missing contributors in the wiki as of right now.

Karbo is sometimes okay with asking forgiveness instead of permission, but that would still be a nasty thing to do.

Hm, alright...fair enough, on both accounts.

But part of the reason why I like the world is because of the characters that're in it. Do I just have to throw that all out if I'm writing something that I feel the owner wouldn't agree with?

Portalboat wrote:

Hm, alright...fair enough, on both accounts.

But part of the reason why I like the world is because of the characters that're in it. Do I just have to throw that all out if I'm writing something that I feel the owner wouldn't agree with?

I did write, a couple times, something the owner didn't agree with. Talked it through with them, made offers, counter-offers, got corrections, got told to change things, got input. It wasn't exactly what I started with, but I felt richer for the changes.

If you must absolutely and definitely have it your way no matter what, then making your own character might be the only way.

Yeah. I haven't really posted here yet because I know I have Zoekin's contact info SOMEWHERE, and I cannot manage to find it. I've spoken with him outside of deviantart and the forum on occasion.

I want to say moonlight-pendant also talks with him, but that's been a while. There are others who have gone missing too.

Randomdude, the guy who came up with the Crimson Maidens idea is also missing. I have tried contacting him, and also rewriting that entry, but Karbo has been unsure about changing it without talking to him, unfortunately that puts that idea in a permanent limbo.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

Yeah. I haven't really posted here yet because I know I have Zoekin's contact info SOMEWHERE, and I cannot manage to find it. I've spoken with him outside of deviantart and the forum on occasion.

I want to say moonlight-pendant also talks with him, but that's been a while. There are others who have gone missing too.

Randomdude, the guy who came up with the Crimson Maidens idea is also missing. I have tried contacting him, and also rewriting that entry, but Karbo has been unsure about changing it without talking to him, unfortunately that puts that idea in a permanent limbo.

Yeah, that's the problem.

Like I said, I get the point of having a rule like that, but...it kind of works against trying to build a world. I don't know a solution, though, outside of just allowing everyone to use everyone's characters and trusting that they won't be misused or flanderized.

That's what we have the disclaimer for. You agree to it when an idea is put on the wiki for this reason. It transfers ownership from you to Karbo. He can do as he wishes with it, but Karbo's a generally nice guy, and tries to always be polite, so he'd rather try and contact these people. I suppose he'd feel guilty if he changed their idea without talking to them even if he DOES technically own it.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

That's what we have the disclaimer for. You agree to it when an idea is put on the wiki for this reason. It transfers ownership from you to Karbo. He can do as he wishes with it, but Karbo's a generally nice guy, and tries to always be polite, so he'd rather try and contact these people. I suppose he'd feel guilty if he changed their idea without talking to them even if he DOES technically own it.

That's just for ideas, though. I'm talking about characters.

From my understanding, I can't ever use Crisis or Anna in any of my own stories without asking Karbo for permission, right?

Portalboat wrote:

That's just for ideas, though. I'm talking about characters.

From my understanding, I can't ever use Crisis or Anna in any of my own stories without asking Karbo for permission, right?

You shouldn't. But if you did, there's nothing we could really do to stop you.

As far as I'm aware, Karbo's characters are fair game since they're "core" characters, for a lack of a better term. I've already done it a number of times, using his characters for certain stories, sometimes even writing short pieces revolving exclusively around them, and he didn't mind one bit. Really, as long as you don't do anything blatantly malicious, which just glancing through your posts I can tell that is the furthest thing on your mind, he's not really gonna care if you ask for permission to use Crisis or Anna. If you're unsure how his characters would react in a given situation, feel free to contact him. Just don't expect a speedy answer, however.

Hrm, I just had a thought.

Does the rule go as far as 'don't even mention these characters', or is it safe to your character mention someone else's? Like having your character say 'Oh yeah, Crisis is a incredible predator', 'Anna is really good with her magic thingies', etc?

There's gotta be some kind of socializing in the jungle, right?

Portalboat wrote:

Does the rule go as far as 'don't even mention these characters', or is it safe to your character mention someone else's? Like having your character say 'Oh yeah, Crisis is a incredible predator', 'Anna is really good with her magic thingies', etc?

You still have to ask.

Portalboat wrote:

There's gotta be some kind of socializing in the jungle, right?

This is not an RP. You don't find an in-universe reason to go around the out-of-universe norms. This is this, and that is that.

Stabs wrote:

You still have to ask.

This is not an RP. You don't find an in-universe reason to go around the out-of-universe norms. This is this, and that is that.

...Really?

So just for clarification, I have to ask for permission from Karbo (or whoever created the character) to mention any character that they've made in a story that I'm writing. Even if my character is a human living in Negav, and I want to have them mention Ps'isol Magiocrats i.e. the rulers of the city.

You...are aware that that's like saying that someone living in the US can't ever mention even the name of the president, right?

If that's actually the case...then jeez, to be blunt, I'm not surprised that things have died out. That's kind of the exact antithesis of building a world.

Uh, no, you don't. Like I said, Karbo is cool with people using his characters, unless you're doing anything outright spiteful. Things like the Ps'Isol Council members and other such characters are, for a lack of a better term, public domain as far as Felarya is concerned. It's when you want to use a character who belongs to somebody other than Karbo where you have to ask.

I think mentioning them is cool as long as you credit them in the end, but having them participate in the story outright, that you're better off asking. Again, Karbo is the exception.

Shady Knight wrote:

Uh, no, you don't.  Like I said, Karbo is cool with people using his characters, unless you're doing anything outright spiteful.  Things like the Ps'Isol Council members and other such characters are, for a lack of a better term, public domain as far as Felarya is concerned.  It's when you want to use a character who belongs to somebody other than Karbo where you have to ask.

I think mentioning them is cool as long as you credit them in the end, but having them participate in the story outright, that you're better off asking.  Again, Karbo is the exception.

That's not what Stabs said, though, which is why I'm asking for clarification from him.

I mean...he did kind of directly say "You still have to ask", "Karbo is sometimes okay with asking forgiveness instead of permission, but that would still be a nasty thing to do", and "You shouldn't. But if you did, there's nothing we could really do to stop you."

So I'm still not exactly clear on what the official stance is...

I'll break it down for you.

Everything on the wiki that doesn't say "(X thing) was the idea of (Y person)", you're free to do whatever you want with it since, as it has been told, it's considered Felarya's public domain.

However, when the idea has been submitted by someone else, here is how I picture it:

-If it's someone's OC, and plays a big or small role in your story/picture/thing, it is recommended you go talk to the idea's owner and get their ok stamp. It's more polite that way and it's the way it should be.

-Now let's say you're in the flora's section, looking for plants of trees. In your story, for example, you say something like "Under noon's sun, (X flower that belongs to someone else) were still wet from the rain." In this very particular case, I don't think it's necessary to go ask the person. I mean, people will tell you you still should, but honestly, who's gonna go and wait for someone's answer for something as tiny as just naming a flower because it exists in the universe. Unless the object in question plays a huge role in your story, you don't need to ask permission. Who's to stop you, anyway? Same thing goes for when you mention someone's OC. Example: "Further north, there's a small human village guarded by a giantess named Jade. Don't go there, she's dangerous." In this example, where the mentionned OC does not play an important role, I think no one will care if you don't ask them the permission. What is expected of you, though, is to give credits to people in your author comments. Like: Elli (mentionned) belongs to wiking. Bluefuck flowers (mentionned) belongs to Krisexy, and so forth.

It's so dead here anyways, it's not like the whole community will shit on you. The principal motto is: you do as you please, and respect other's ideas.

Portalboat wrote:

That's not what Stabs said, though, which is why I'm asking for clarification from him.

I mean...he did kind of directly say "You still have to ask", "Karbo is sometimes okay with asking forgiveness instead of permission, but that would still be a nasty thing to do", and "You shouldn't. But if you did, there's nothing we could really do to stop you."

So I'm still not exactly clear on what the official stance is...

The official stance is that you ask for permission before using another author's character. Our enforcement abilities are lacking, but you are expected to ask for permission. Here is the official stance for more details. If it seems barebones and unclear, you'd have to look at how it's been applied.

As for this...

Portalboat wrote:

So just for clarification, I have to ask for permission from Karbo (or whoever created the character) to mention any character that they've made in a story that I'm writing. Even if my character is a human living in Negav, and I want to have them mention Ps'isol Magiocrats i.e. the rulers of the city.
You...are aware that that's like saying that someone living in the US can't ever mention even the name of the president, right?

A better analogy would be saying that someone living in the US is allowed to reshape whatever part of the universe they desire at will, so long as they stop at the president: writing a story is different from mentioning someone in conversation, as stories are all the reality characters are likely to be presented in.

Only by talking to the authors can you allow the worldbuilding to remain shared, rather than let it become contested. Besides, people are often quite sensitive about the use of their characters, and even the disclaimer respects this.