All Right. Talking Time.

I'm going to try to nip this drama in the bud. A number of people have been involved in some drama lately that, frankly, is kind of silly. I'm one of them, I admit. Hey, we can all get a little edgy, but hey, no one's perfect. Like Cliff said in his cursed ponies friendship thread, we need to get past it.

See, CauldronBorn is a crafty bastard. He enacted a devious ploy to get both me and Krisexy into an MSN conversation. And you know what? It was quite civil. We found that we agree on a lot of things, and even our disagreements are not beyond reaching an understanding... if we both just listen to each other. You know what? That turned my doom-and-gloom "it's never going to get better attitude" into a more hopeful "maybe we can all make it work" one.

So put down your insults, put down your anger, and PUT DOWN THE DRAMA.
And Aisu, put down the pizza.

I want to hear everyone's version of events. Try to be civil, but I also understand that we all view things differently. Someone may say something you don't like. GUESS WHAT? No backlashing, or I will flame you into next year (so tell me how 2012 is). I want you to read someone's entire version of events, and put yourself in their shoes. Maybe... maybe it'll all make sense.

So, I guess I should go first. Keep in mind that this is my version of events. I'm not saying it's 100% accurate, since it's obviously colored by my own bias. The point of this is for all of us to give our own version, and try to understand why we're all arguing. So let's begin:

This is basically a continuation of the drama that has been brewing for a while. However, this chapter starts with certain people on dA. The whole "I'm not going to name names" attitude implies I'm trying to give off false civility, so I'll say it. People like TryMeIke, HotPlate, and the other people I flamed.

They think Felarya is like Bleach or Naruto, where it's some distant and corporate organization that created it, one that pays no attention to their "fanfics". It's not. Felarya was made by down-to-Earth people. Who care about it. And they think the attitude of "let me stick my SUPERCOOLBADASS characters in here and trample all over this setting" is an insult. They don't do any research on the setting, they don't talk to people about using their characters, and they don't care about portraying things correctly. THAT is why I get angry. Not for me. For people like Cliff, and JT, and AJ, and CB. People who have worked to make Felarya better. People whose characters are being misused. People who have made so many ideas and helped Karbo create a wiki. When someone just ignores all that and turns their work into some sort of self-aggrandizing fapfest... well, it pisses me off.

See, the thing is, I percieve a lot of newcomers (not all!) as wanting only praise. Because that's what they get on dA. It's hard to find a negative comment anywhere on dA... beyond trolling, of course. So they come to the forum, where people CARE, and they don't get immediate praises. They get critique. And it offends them. They think "negative = troll", because that is how it is on dA. So, they lash out. This causes the critiquers to take offense as well. Recipe for drama. Thus, these dA kids think the forum is full of trolls, and create little journals and polls on dA about how we can suck balls and how mean we all are... and then their gaggle of similar-minded friends all form some anti-forum hatefest and coddle and console the spurned dA kid, feeding back into that idiotic mindset of "anything that isn't praise must be trolling". This is all just more fuel on my rage-fire.

Angered and seeing no way to stop this drama, I attacked those people on dA, figuring that since Karbo had decided he couldn't police what happens there, I would let loose and prove them right. The forum was no place for them. This caused problems, because once another disagreement between Krisexy and myself broke out, I only tried using logic once... and when she didn't reply in a manner I saw as rational, I got snarky, nasty, and sarcastic. Karbo stepped in and brought up my dA exploits. I explained my reasons as trying to protect the forum and my friends, and he called it gatekeeping, and called me a bully. Realizing that it really was his decision, I stood down and resigned. However, as I left, I warned that if he continued valuing those idiots over the people who had stood by him for years... I wouldn't be the last. I was right.

What really makes all this worse is that it seems Karbo sympathizes with the "praise only" dA mindset. He's also held a few grudges that really should have been let go of. But, before anyone thinks I'm blaming him for all this, I would like to say that he's not the only one. People haven't been talking, and other people have felt betrayed by the sudden lack of communication. Cliff is one. In the Vent, he claimed that it was useless for him to post ideas, since Karbo would only ignore them all because he disliked Cliff. This actually saddened me, because I got the feeling Cliff truly felt like a friend had stabbed him in the back. I figured that if I could see Karbo's side of the story, he'd be willing to civilly talk this all out with Cliff and make things right.

How foolish I was. Karbo was just as sullen and angry as Cliff had been. Possibly worse. I hadn't realized how deeply this drama had hit both of them. I found it stupid. So, I just told Karbo that he should try to make up, and then told Cliff what had happened. This... may have been a bad choice, as Cliff then resigned from the community. JaetteTroll, concerned by this, had his own discussion with Karbo. I do not know the details, but it didn't go the way JT had hoped, and he followed the same path Cliff and I had. They both felt like Karbo didn't value their efforts to help Felarya grow, and so they decided to discontinue... just as I had felt like no one valued my desire to defend my friends.

It was around this time that I realized what this truly was about. This went beyond a fantasy setting. This went beyond a bunch of writers and artists. It was about friends, and how much they respected each other. Cliff and JT felt as if Karbo had no respect for them, and were offended by this. I was also offended, for them. It's obvious to everyone that Felarya is Karbo's setting. But the way I see it, other people have put their share in. Other people have put their hearts and souls into helping Karbo turn this into a truly unique world, full of ideas and possibilities. It is so much more than just a fap-setting for some immature dA "author". Karbo, as far as I can see, disagrees. None of their efforts matter. The way I see it, this is a community effort. All we asked for was some respect, and some consideration, for our efforts. No, for THEIR efforts... I haven't done enough to be in that group. Neither have the dA kids... but that doesn't mean we never will. Everyone is free to come in, and propose their own ideas... some won't fit. That's okay... we get up, and we try again! We acknowledge that critique is a sign of caring, not trolling, and we welcome it! Most of all, we make friends, we discuss things, and WE MAKE MAGIC!

Ah. I was going for a strong ending. That will do. So, who's next?

Is it just me, or is this the exact same thing we were fighting about the last hundred times the community nosedived into drama? Have we not learned from past mistakes? Have we not yet come to an understanding? People, I GREW UP with half of you!

It keeps coming up because it keeps getting swept under the rug. As time passes it gets harder and harder to ignore, so it needs to be addressed before the community just falls apart from the inside out.

I agree that this should be dealt with now, though I have no clue as of yet on how to help with that. The first step I can see is to look at the good people have done, and remember that when trying to repair damaged relationships. People are focused too much on the negative, and it stops them before they can do anything. Additionally, those of us who, like I have, have tried to sit this out aren't totally free from what's happening. We should be focusing on being the calm, impartial, fair group to try to stop the fights, before they start if at all possible, and to minimize the damage should one break out. We also need to be the ones to repair the damage caused, both in stability and in terms of relations. I'm not sure where to go from here, so I'll stop for now.

Just get everyone together and discuss this civilly. You're all acting like a bunch of babies.

Everyone crying about how they feel backstabbed by their friends, WHY DON'T YOU GROW UP? I've been backstabbed tons of times on this site, and I've been told to deal with it. And that's what I did.

So here's my advice to all of you: START DEALING WITH IT.

Too much has happened for something as trivial as this to break up the community. Let's bring Karbo, JT, Cliff, and everyone else in this sob-story together and let's settle it like gentlemen.

First I want to say I'm very sorry things have come to this. Regardless of what has been said on and off forum, between me and certain people, this is a sad day and a constatation of faillure from my part..

But I also want to repeat what I stated to JT : I don't want the Felarya community to slowly become a closed an elitist club where to enter you have to pass a sort of test, and if you fail it you are driven away. Because yo uare not "useful"
This is a slope to something I truly don't want Felarya to be. I understand well that people are proud of their ideas and contributions to the world and want to defend them.
But in the same time I want everyone to be able to have fun in Felarya, freely, without having some people jumping on them and telling : no your story is worthless, because you didn't do *that* right. get out.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

I warned that if he continued valuing those idiots over the people who had stood by him for years... I wouldn't be the last. I was right.

I'm sorry but that is not true at all. I'm not valuing "them" more or anything.... The problem is you don't tolerate their existence at all, and yet they have the right to be there. just as anyone else. That's my very firm belief. And I don't think thinking that is somehow putting older members or anybody down or showing disrespect. I have been consistent with that since the start, it's not like I'm taking anybody by surprise here.
If what somebody write is not accurate ? well it's not like they committed some sort of unspeakable sins. Felarya is not meant to be THAT serious. It's not a religion or a setting that will be used in a movie or something, it's a fantasy and unique world based on a fetish, where every one can come and have fun with. It doesn't need strict rules and "you can't do that" placated everywhere . It's a question of balance.
And Felarya was meant to be that way since the beginning. When I created it, I instinctively choose to put it at a dimensional crossroads and make it unstable, for that very reason, so many different things could happens and going on there.

And please don't say that I have no care for Felarya or something like that. I care deeply and I'm very fond of this little world. I have devoted thousands of hours on it and I could continue for long years to come, and I will be always very watchful of the direction it takes. But that don't means to be intolerant with anything that doesn't fit perefectly in the mold...

To be honest, at this point I 'm at loss and asking myself some serious questions... Seriously, should we continue or not ?
Should Felarya be a closed project from now on ?

I may be in charge, but It's obvious I'm not fit to lead a community. That is just not my style : I don't like confrontations or telling people what to do. I'm too emotional and I have a problem with the word "no" ( like many Asians, and it's not just a cliche ). And I'd rather draw than dealing with internal politics. Plus like we can see, there seems to be some fundamental disagrements at the root on what Felarya is meant to be.
The wiki has also slowly turned over the years into some sort of contest where, for some people, having and idea go there seems almost more important than the very idea itself... I also progressively started to get a nagging feeling in the back of my head, whenever I add things, that it will creates some amount of jealousy and backlash at some points. And I feel guilty of rejecting an idea too, with this confuse feeling that things are going too fast, growing too much.

I want to say I'm not trying to just conveniently escape the problem and I fully akcnowledge my part of responsabilities in all this mess. But that's a possibility I'm know seriously considering as a solution.

The problem is that there are too many conflicting opinions, and oftentimes the people voicing said opinions will become loud and obnoxious trying to voice it.

We need to come to an understanding where one person isn't allowed to be more "right" than someone else without justification. Otherwise it just leads to further bickering.

Some people have read this before. I've shown Karbo, it it seems that not everyone has understood it.

Click Here for the google doc Online Communication.

For those who don't like/Can't use google docs, Click here:

Read it? Good.

I've seen people and posts of the forum called hostile. Not in text, but in tone.
Thing is, text does not carry tone. It can't it is just words.
If you read something in a negative tone, you a prejudging the writer and assuming that they are being negative. Same with any other tone.
This had lead to gross misunderstandings. People just trying to help are called trolls and flaming.

That's why we shouldn't be discussing this topic on the forum. use a instant chat. There's the chatbox, instant messengers like MSN, there's skype, ventrilo, all manner of things.

You can't really get to know someone on a forum. So you can make any judgement about them. But on instant messengers you can know them a little better. Using voice chat lets you hear the way they speak, the tones they use when they say certain things. You will be able to read things they say in their voice and understand what they really meant.

Okay, you guys are not getting the point of this topic. It's not about telling people to grow up or move on. We've done plenty of that.

Only Karbo's got it right so far. We all have our opinions on this. Now, we need to put them out there, and have everyone listen. Just like Krisexy and I did on MSN. And you know what? We were able to actually work it out calmly and civilly. We still don't agree 100%, but if people as stubborn as the two of us can do it... so can the rest of you.

Karbo, I see your point. I understand the danger of it becoming an elitist, gated community. None of us wants that. However, there's the other extreme, with people whose SOLE PURPOSE for writing is to make the most "awesome and powerful" characters that they can, and it's really making Felarya look bad to everyone else. Mr. Nobody is on a quest to read EVERYTHING with the "Felarya" tag on it, and... it's killing him. You wouldn't believe what's out there.

This wouldn't be a problem, if it weren't for the respect thing. As I said, it seems to more prolific members (notice I did not say "older" members, as many people like myself have simply been hanging about uselessly for years, while some people came in and started making gold right away) that the people on dA are getting the exact same treatment that they are... and that gets a little depressing. It becomes a matter of "why should I work hard on making my ideas good, when I can just make crap and get just as much praise?".

Karbo wrote:

: I don't want the Felarya community to slowly become a closed an elitist club where to enter you have to pass a sort of test, and if you fail it you are driven away.

I don't think any of us put in a test, or plan to. All we ever asked was that a person can take a little feedback and not devolve into whining and playing the victim. I've taken some critique back when I wrote stuff, and you know what? I was damn glad to get it. It meant that someone cared enough to read it over, and tell me how I could improve. If someone just wants to bash something, chances are they won't take the time to say EXACTLY what's wrong with it... they'll just bash the author. Sometimes a little praise is good to include in critique, but praise alone won't help anyone get better.

Pendragon wrote:

Everyone crying about how they feel backstabbed by their friends, WHY DON'T YOU GROW UP? I've been backstabbed tons of times on this site, and I've been told to deal with it. And that's what I did.

That's not constructive, Pen. We've been flinging "grow up" and "deal with it" at each other for months. It's not the solution. I want people to say WHAT they think, and maybe we'll all realize that we're not as different as we think.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

You can't really get to know someone on a forum. So you can make any judgement about them. But on instant messengers you can know them a little better. Using voice chat lets you hear the way they speak, the tones they use when they say certain things. You will be able to read things they say in their voice and understand what they really meant.

AJ is correct. The Vent, or even IM, is a great way to talk to people and make friends. Plus, it helps new people get acquainted with the world, because they can talk with everyone else without the cold and often emotionless barrier of the forum.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Only Karbo's got it right so far. We all have our opinions on this. Now, we need to put them out there, and have everyone listen. Just like Krisexy and I did on MSN.

Proving my point about forum vs instant chat.

Also, Zion, you know that I started typing up my point of view long before this thread and I still haven't finished.

Might as post what I've got so far here anyway.

Keep in mind that some of these are arguments for/against certain aspects of things. A lot of it is unfinished or missing the opposing aspect.

The Importance of Consistency across a Shared Fictional Setting

Defense of the Realm

Dusckauner

Ideal forum POV. I wish things were more this way rather than they actually are.

More to come.

Now, this is something that everyone should do and zion agrees.

Write up your point of view on this mess. Be detailed. Be truthful. Post it here.
If you disagree with someone's point of view or you want to talk to them about it, don't do it on this thread. Don't do it on the forum.
Talk to them on MSN, Yahoo, whatever you want to use. Or at the very least, use private messages or notes. Even email.

Quote :

Just like Krisexy and I did on MSN. And you know what? We were able to actually work it out calmly and civilly.

second time someone on this forum agrees that I am civil. And you know what, both of those 2 people have talked to me via an instant messaging.....maybe there is a link that should be done here :/

Anyways, my view of the story: Well, I am stating the obvious here: Cliff wanted to be mod again. Why obvious? Well, it's not like its impossible to not change your signature and he made it big enough in his signature that he has somewhat been "betrayed". So, it starts bad. Then things happened. Blablabla. I don't actually think trymeike has something to do with this. Ya, he did not help, but I don't think cliff is that stupid to let Ike make cliff leave the community. I dont know if the last sentence make sense, but i hope you understand what I wanted to say. So I think cliff was just pissed off like ive been some times ago :/ It just grew more and more till he had enough. Cant blame him for that.

okay, this is what I think.

I feel that there is some bias in the community. But it isn't by people like Karbo or Cliff. it's a certain few people who think Felarya is THEIR world and that they should get to dictate what's in it.

i'm sure alot of people feel this way. We need to do something to tell these people "this isn't your property, so your opinion isn't the only valid one".

I only wish I could help somehow, to ease the tension between people and mediate arguments...Like I always did with my friends in school....

Pendragon wrote:

okay, this is what I think.

I feel that there is some bias in the community. But it isn't by people like Karbo or Cliff. it's a certain few people who think Felarya is THEIR world and that they should get to dictate what's in it.

i'm sure alot of people feel this way. We need to do something to tell these people "this isn't your property, so your opinion isn't the only valid one".

DAMN THOSE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!


Wait what?

I don't know how I manage to get into these things when most of the time they don't affect me at all. I have to blame it to my empathy, I guess...

It wouldn't be the first time I'd say 'farewell' to something I got to know by chance but grew up with. And think of how it would hurt because of the people I've met and the things I've seen. I know that meeting people via I-Net isn't the same as in real world, but I try to make the experience of knowing me as closer as it'd be in real life. Of course, just trying doesn't seem to be enough.

...

Well, now that I got that out of my system, I'll tell you this: I have nothing against newbies. Sure, there are newcomers that get the setting wrong, that go for DBZ-esque characters instead of something that actually fits. Do we have to be rude with them? Of course not, we all make mistakes sooner or later. Do we have to let everything pass? That isn't the solution either, we need to know when things are right, but also when they're wrong.

The problem here is that there are lots of things that relate to Felarya. There are many drawings, many stories, many comcis, many bios... that have some relationship with Felarya. Some fit, some don't. Some of us work hard to make our creations coherent with the setting, others don't try the very least, some are in the middle... there are many things, many different between each other... it's nearly impossible to have full control over it. And of course, there will be gems and there will be trash. But trash isn't necessarily only coming from newcomers and gems aren't necessarily an older-members exclusive.

You know what I think some people might lack? Empathy. And what some other people might lack as well? Self-criticism. You have to understand what others feel, but also be aware that you might be wrong and accept it. At least, that's my point of view.

Oh, and I don't wanna end this without speaking of my "favourite" topic: the wiki. I'll tell you this, like I've said several times: I don't give a damn about having stuff on the wiki or not - though it'll seem that because I repeat this again and again, I actually give a damn. Well, I give a damn when it comes to a way to document myself on the setting, but nothing else. I don't care if my ideas are ignored or if my characters aren't as well known as other people's. I like sharing what I have, sharing opinions, stories and whatever I feel like.

You're all free to discuss it and even to bash me if you feel like that. I'll welcome a healthy conversation and give as many answers as you want. You know I'm the kind of guy who won't hesitate in explaining things again and in more detail.

I think the attitude taken towards new people need to be fixed as well, when someone joins the forum don't take into account all the bad things they may have done elsewhere. When someone is wrong, you don't yell at them, you must help them instead, and I think there's been far too much yelling on this forum anyway. A lot of the people others say are rude/troll/flamers/etc I find to be rather nice and friendly. Being nice and empathetic can take you really far, and will make the forum a much nicer place.

However, I do believe that since we keep burying issues on this forum, it just makes the problems spring back up later. I know it may hurt, but healing a wound isn't always painless. When it comes down to, be more accepting to people, even if you think they're idiots. That will help this forum seem less elitist.

I'm not going to waste my time and type up a massive essay like I was considering doing about an hour ago... I simply don't have the energy for it anymore... I'm tired... I'm old, and it's 6am with no sleep..

Do not mistake my intent with this post, it serves only to bring up context, not to reignite old flamewars despite their relevancy to the issue.

Let me cut down right to the core of one problem I think EVERYONE seems to be forgetting. Respect, right? Mutual respect. Now, we have been told numerous time now over the course of this melodrama since Febuary, and indeed when this diabolical problem reared it's ugly head last time back in 2009 that the seniority of a member has no bearing on their need to respect and follow the forum rules, And I can understand this.

For the most part, I do think that this rule has been followed by all members who know them. Yes, there have been situations where tempers have flared and things where said that should not have been, and nobody is innocent of this. There was also alot of miscommunication and confusion, which lead to frustration and frayed tempers catching fire a little... Anyway, I digress, all those situations appeared to be out of context anyway. My point is this - Karbo, I understand the rules are in place, and they are there for a reason. However, one of this forum's priorities was to generate ideas and feedback correct? If people, especially active senior members, do offer criticisms, both positive and negative, are suddenly accused of gatekeeping by the newbies because they received a critique they did not agree with and lash out with all the flames in the world, and then you get a report from the newbie and look into the thread only to see mountains of eye-blistering flames from them directed at the critiquing senior member, while they calmly deflect the flames and try to focus on the subject, how then can this be considered gatekeeping?

I ask this because I have seen many allegations made, and not one peice of evidence was brought forth by the accusers nor the arrestors, and yet still I watch as the comunity slowly breaks apart for nothing more than what appears to be pride and spite.... Now, I level this blame at all parties for these catastropic failures at communication even in the most base levels... If flaming eachother to high heavens and punishing eachother is the only universal language left here... There is NO hope left. In less than a week, this forum has pushed out 3 well known and actively contributing members for no other reason than what apppears to be faction friction, pride and cold shoulder treatment.

Now I don't know the deal bitween Cliff and French Snack, and frankly, I don't think I ever will.... But from the beginning of this years spiral down the toilet, ever since the Letter, people have been either at eachothers throats, and when everything seemed calm, it seemed to me that all they did was look at eachother with a sneer of contempt and suspicion... Gone was the trust we all once had... The letter incident opened wounds that run deeper than they should have, perhaps reopening old wounds of the 2009 war, but it ran so much deeper and lasted a lot longer. People are wary of the intentions of EVERYONE around them now, Everyone who signed the letter don't even want to confront Karbo about any issue he may perceive as negative from fear of banishment, and Karbo remained tight lipped about everything, nobody could read his intentions or even if he had any. The entire original point of the letter was lost underneath the shitstorm it generated and nobody was willing to try and get the subject back on track... Instead we see a massive falling out bitween the staff and Administration. Cliff, being the "Opposition" was - from what I saw - the only one to receive punishment, a punishment from which he never recovered from, and has accumulated now into his self imposed exile.

Now, let me reinterate something. All the staff where responsible for that affair, all should have been held accountable, and more importantly, I as a modarator and administrator of several forums over the past 17 years would have found Cliff's "growling and gnashing of teeth" stands as nothing compared to the false accusation that he was responding to that was leveled at another prominent and active member. That said, the higher offence was not taken into account, and Cliff was demodded and later banned for several weeks with no warning given. This, to me seemed to be a personal oppinion influenced decision. Make no mistake, an Admin needs the trust and co-operation of his staff in order to keep the machine running, but Karbo, if you needed to de-mod Cliff, I beleive you should have PMed him your decision to him and explained why. and not use the argument itself as a platform as an excuse. Impartiality in such decisions is absolutely critical. Please take note, this is not me having a stab at you, it's me speaking as an experienced moderator and administrator myself. I know how difficult it is to run a forum community, especially larger more complex ones. I ran debating forums and RP forums that generated a LOT of flames and clashings of oppinion... I also witnessed the total disintegration of the MUGEN community bitween 1999 and 2003. The situations here hopefully never reach that stage and are still far from it.

Again, Cliff never recovered from this, and of course his flames became more and more erratic, fuelled particularly by Krisexy's comments on DA, which in turn created a minor incident which served to fuel the still bleeding wounds of the Incident earlier this year, and karbo informed us that he cannot police DA with his forum rules, reasonable enough despite a sound case for defamation being possible. Frustration was high, and his friend in Karbo had shut him out (or at least thats what he told me last time I spoke to him). Obviously, the bridge he had spent years building, would not last long under that pressure, and so, he finally snapped and burned his bridge to Felarya.

Second case. Zion. Also a signatory of the now "Infamous" letter was caught in the wakewash of the storm it created and became quite vocal on his oppinion, both for and against points he saw on both sides. He was not a fan of Cliff's angry outbursts, but understood the frustrations behind them. Now unlike Cliff, Zion's exile simmered much quieter until the end, where he probably went overboard in his.... attacks on DA. Now, I do not agree with handing out ownages to noobs, but Zion did. Now, when he returns to the forums and has a minor altercation, whereupon Karbo hands out an infraction befitting a much larger confrontation, the reason: Zion's antics on DA.

At this point anyone who remembers one particular chapter of this years flareups of tantrums and drama would tell you that Krisexy got off scott free on the EXACT same infraction. I can tell you now that Zion remembered it.

I will say this, this year so far has been utterly disasterous for Felarya.

Now, with all that said, NOBODY can claim to be innocent in this affair, not the staff, not the management and not the members... The question I will now raise to ALL of you, is what do you all intend to do about it? If you sweep this under the carpet again.... then there is no place for me here either.... I will not watch as the community I have seen over the past 7 years desitegrate slowly and die because all you kids (And yes, I realise that most of you are younger than I am, and almost all of you have not been here as long as I have) can't get that vain pride out of your heads and stop being dills. The mistrust created by the letter and the 2009 incidents should NEVER have gone this far, and yet it has, and we all share equal blame for that too... Perceived attacks, perceived threats, perceived taunts....*Shakes head* that is all they are, perceptions.... Maybe the lack of trust something more than what the letter brought of of some of you... I dunno...

Maybe I should leave afterall...

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Now, this is something that everyone should do and zion agrees.

Write up your point of view on this mess. Be detailed. Be truthful. Post it here.
If you disagree with someone's point of view or you want to talk to them about it, don't do it on this thread. Don't do it on the forum.
Talk to them on MSN, Yahoo, whatever you want to use. Or at the very least, use private messages or notes. Even email.

Precisely, precisely, precisely. Do that, do that, do that.

Darkstorm Zero wrote:

Now, with all that said, NOBODY can claim to be innocent in this affair, not the staff, not the management and not the members... The question I will now raise to ALL of you, is what do you all intend to do about it? If you sweep this under the carpet again.... then there is no place for me here either.... I will not watch as the community I have seen over the past 7 years desitegrate slowly and die because all you kids (And yes, I realise that most of you are younger than I am, and almost all of you have not been here as long as I have) can't get that vain pride out of your heads and stop being dills. The mistrustcreated by the letter and the 2009 incidents should NEVER have gone this far, and yet it has, and we all share equal blame for that too... Perceived attacks, perceived threats, perceived taunts....*Shakes head* that is all they are, perceptions.... Maybe the lack of trust something more than what the letter brought of of some of you... I dunno...

Maybe I should leave afterall...

That's what I'd like to do Darkstorm. We need to communicate better so this incident isn't just swept under the rug again.

Not everyone forgets what mutual respect is, Darkstorm. We can be blamed for some things, we can be blamed for not being of enough help in some matters or for not being known enough to give others a message of calm and mutual respect... but not all of us can be blamed for being disrespectful.

Some of us have learnt of it during years of being newcomers in other communities and knowing that you have to treat others the way you'd like to be treated. That and empathy. It's a long way and many times it's also a hard one, but when we learn it, life isn't that hard and we're more pleased with ourselves and our actions.

Blamed for not trying enough? Maybe. But some of us had worked in bringing some peace and lessons to learn. We don't want our effort to be wasted, but if it wasn't enough, to make it bigger and more useful.

Sorry, but for someone who's always been respectful to others in this forum, this felt like a jar of cold water.

Feadraug wrote:

Not everyone forgets what mutual respect is, Darkstorm. We can be blamed for some things, we can be blamed for not being of enough help in some matters or for not being known enough to give others a message of calm and mutual respect... but not all of us can be blamed for being disrespectful.

I never named names, those who are truly guilty know who they are, but what I am saying is that the guilt is broader and runs deeper than most would know or care to admit.

Feadraug wrote:

Some of us have learnt of it during years of being newcomers in other communities and knowing that you have to treat others the way you'd like to be treated. That and empathy. It's a long way and many times it's also a hard one, but when we learn it, life isn't that hard and we're more pleased with ourselves and our actions.

Simply following the rules when you first sign in to the forum is a necesity, and vigilance in adhering to those rules is expected... One cannot simply say "But they swiped at me first!" and claim it as a defence. This applies to both sides. There is a right way, and a wrong way, and what we have here is the wrong way gone awry... So awry in fact that even the staff and admin are guilty of it, not just the members.... Of all the breakdowns that could happen, that was the worst.

Feadraug wrote:

Blamed for not trying enough? Maybe. But some of us had worked in bringing some peace and lessons to learn. We don't want our effort to be wasted, but if it wasn't enough, to make it bigger and more useful.

Yes, and everyone deserves a chance to be part of that proccess. My gripe was that people who are new sometimes produce brilliant works, we help them fine tune it and help them present it to the wider community. Sometimes new people produce things that simply do not work for a variety of reasons, and when a critique reflects this, the new person mayl either react rationally, and try again with some help from the members if applicable, or they may react negatively and lash out. causing a disturbance, make accusations and flame the members who did the critique. And this is far from a rarity sadly... The aggrivating part of this however is that the new people complain to karbo about mistreatment in these circumstances, and sometimes this results in an unfounded lashing of the member doing the critique.

Feadraug wrote:

Sorry, but for someone who's always been respectful to others in this forum, this felt like a jar of cold water.

It was not a specific jab, but rather a poke at the community in it's entirety. I named no names when I said that for a reason.

You named no one, yet you spoke in very general terms. That was what made me feel bad. I know your intention was to make sure the whole community listened, but... Sorry if I just got carried away, but when you work on being a better person and try to help others in that and then directly getting a message like yours, it just triggers something in me, something to prove that I might be an exception to the rule and not deserving a blame that is not mine at all.

I tell you I agree with the fact we all need to make sure mutual respect is achieved, but you also have to know that some of us have been working on that - maybe not hard enough? sure, but we've been doing our best up to now - before you mentioned it and I think that even though it's a big problem, exceptions still exist and can be, in this case, helpful.

EDIT: I admit I might sound a bit aggressive, but really, I have no hostility towards anyone in this forum or in this world at all. It's just that I've been working hard in many things and reading a message of someone speaking in general terms, even if good-spirited, makes me feel uneasy, because it makes me think I've been wasting my time for something I believe is the best for as many people as possible.

Feadraug wrote:

You named no one, yet you spoke in very general terms. That was what made me feel bad. I know your intention was to make sure the whole community listened, but... Sorry if I just got carried away, but when you work on being a better person and try to help others in that and then directly getting a message like yours, it just triggers something in me, something to prove that I might be an exception to the rule and not deserving a blame that is not mine at all.

I spoke in general terms precisely because I do not with to lump anyone into categories. Labels are bad, and nobody deserves to be stamped and sent to one camp or another. If you feel that you have done no wrong, that is your distinction to make, not mine or anyone elses. Those who did do the wrong thing know what they did, wether they choose to admit that or not. This message is intended for them.

Feadraug wrote:

I tell you I agree with the fact we all need to make sure mutual respect is achieved, but you also have to know that some of us have been working on that - maybe not hard enough? sure, but we've been doing our best up to now - before you mentioned it and I think that even though it's a big problem, exceptions still exist and can be, in this case, helpful.

Yes, exeptions do exist, but the problem is that mutual respect, empathy, trust and common sense should be the norm, not the exeption. That, more than anything else in this entire conflict aggrivates and frustrates me, as I'm sure it does many others. People value their own pride and oppinion over these, which makes me even angrier. And Pride is not far off from conceit, which is but a short step from tyranny.

Feadraug wrote:

EDIT: I admit I might sound a bit aggressive, but really, I have no hostility towards anyone in this forum or in this world at all. It's just that I've been working hard in many things and reading a message of someone speaking in general terms, even if good-spirited, makes me feel uneasy, because it makes me think I've been wasting my time for something I believe is the best for as many people as possible.

Like I stated, only those who are guilty of the major transgressions (And they know who they are) needed to hear what should have been said right from the very beginning.

I reiterate I'm sorry about how I reacted. And I agree with you that it should be the norm, not the exception.

Now that we've dealt with it, time to move on in getting this mutual respect as further as we can.

Being the new kid an' all... I have no idea what's going on. Hope you guys can make better sense of all this.