What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...

Yes, but what about Nobodies then? They don't exist. They are nothing! And if someone like Crisis tried getting rid of the Heartless by eating them... wouldn't they just get into her heart?

Say now, one million of those guys dropped on a giant predator or anywhere else in a large enough group. They could also catch unwary traveler/adventurers and then we have MORE heartless to contend with...

Anyone smell cross over?

This scenario is scarier then Supa-Powa Sephiroth stalking around, although all you'd need is a whiney emo blonde dude with a big sword to stop him.
'AERISSS!!'
'She's dead, we get it!'

L'Ryn wrote:

Yes, but what about Nobodies then? They don't exist. They are nothing!

And yet regular weapons and magic can strike them down. Then again, if we go off the zaniest KH calcs, the regular Heartless will need a Predator smashing it just to be hurt. Said calcs are the "FF character strength needed to even harm them, and multiple hits required" ones.

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And if someone like Crisis tried getting rid of the Heartless by eating them... wouldn't they just get into her heart?

Depends on how she eats them.

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Say now, one million of those guys dropped on a giant predator or anywhere else in a large enough group. They could also catch unwary traveler/adventurers and then we have MORE heartless to contend with...

Unfortunately, one only needs a 1-1 kill ratio to keep any number growth on the opposing side. Heartless are sort of like a magical Zombie, but without the infection issue often portrayed w/ non-magical Zombies.

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Anyone smell cross over?

I myself would prefer Rage-Infected Heartless bearing the Blight in Gor for the sheer abusage, but that =/= Felarya crossover.

L'Ryn wrote:

And if someone like Crisis tried getting rid of the Heartless by eating them... wouldn't they just get into her heart?'

When I see the heartless cannot affect people like Winnie the pooh, I think many Predator would be able to eat them without to be affected.

L'Ryn wrote:

Say now, one million of those guys dropped on a giant predator or anywhere else in a large enough group. They could also catch unwary traveler/adventurers and then we have MORE heartless to contend with...

There is a strong chance it draw the attention of the guardians.

Malahite wrote:

Raveolution wrote:

I prefer a hovertank. An underground attack can immobilize a non-hovertank much easier than a hovertank.

If a little ditch slowed you down, you aren't using A big enough tank (Yes, that thing in the background is on treads).

Lord, what story / game is that from? Warhammer? On Felarya the owner of that tank would widely be known as the friggin landlord hahah! Oh Vivian, your rent is due!

And yeah, even Bolo tanks can qualify as trap-busters, but on a totally off-topic track... what force in Felarya could reasonably hope to build that?

Most Felaryan tracked vehicles would be susceptible to an attack from, say, Aurora. Even hovertanks moving too close to the ground would get taken down by her. But not Bolos, of course, and certainly not the battlebus from hell that you posted heheh.

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There are harpies, elementals and fairies who can attack those,

Provided they slow down. Beyond that, the only way these could be countered by such critters is a Fairy village making a massive wall of force.

I said they can attack. They can't easily hit those targets, much less win. A fairy could see an air convoy going by and call ahead to intercept. It would most LIKELY end in epic failure.

But... I hedge my bets on this because there's always 1 or 2 aerial preds who could figure out how to catch them. There is the chance, especially with air elementals. More than likely it'll be the last meal they ever have, if they live long enough to actually eat someone.

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but forget having to ALSO deal with nagas, many insects, dridders, and especially dryads. You can target and hit the terrestrials from far, far above.

Aye, but you cannot claim said land afterwards. Doesn't do you any good if you can't reap the spoils of war.

Good point. The problem would, of course, come when, as humans do, humans say "no more great preds in this area. Period." That's when the fuel air explosives come out and play. Humans could sweep an area if they wanted it badly enough.

The PROBLEM is that other great preds would come from other areas into the region as workers are building a city over the dead preds. Hello, work comp claims. It would be Vietnam to the Iraq'th power. You'd need a Psi'sol crystal to actually "secure" the place permanently. Otherwise it becomes a war of attrition and a game of whether the humans are willing to commit the money and machines to wear the Great Preds down. And on Felarya, you ain't gonna wear them down. Without the Psi'sol crystal it very much appears the Preds will just keep on comin'. Now there would be a test of human resolve in the making.

Now my original assumption was that a convoy is moving from city to city, and are not trying to land in those areas in between where preds are lurking. But if you wanted to just be a bastage, you could do punitive revenge strikes. After a few humans got digested out there, there would be revenge strikes to come. Overall it wouldn't be all that useful if other great preds rushed in to fill the vacuum.

Just a note about the "Stomach > Grenade" thing: This depends on what type of grenades were being talked about. If a Fragmentary, this implies more a resistance to flechettes and the liking instead of direct energy, so fireballs may be able to work [or may not]. If concussive, there is no direct proof of immunity to razor shards slashing several parts of the stomach at once considering they tend to work through DET alone.

Also, for concussive, one must realize a grenade is omni-directional more often than not. It may have a one megaJoule yield, but all that one megaJoule is not hitting one place in the stomach.

Malahite wrote:

Just a note about the "Stomach > Grenade" thing: This depends on what type of grenades were being talked about. If a Fragmentary, this implies more a resistance to flechettes and the liking instead of direct energy, so fireballs may be able to work [or may not]. If concussive, there is no direct proof of immunity to razor shards slashing several parts of the stomach at once considering they tend to work through DET alone.

Also, for concussive, one must realize a grenade is omni-directional more often than not. It may have a one megaJoule yield, but all that one megaJoule is not hitting one place in the stomach.

Just to be sure, you want something bigger than a grenade. You want a shaped charge. H.E.A.T., anyone? But I don't know of any portable version of this. A shaped charge has a chance of directing the blast and also not killing yourself in the process.

I wouldn't bet on anything short of a C4 detpack. Preferably thrown into the Pred's mouth and detonated at the back of its throat.

I've got some idea of a strategy for protecting yourself against a giant predator using some sort of explosive device, make sure its a V1 Tactical Nuclear Warhead, guarenteed to kill all predators, however there isn't any guarentee that you'll survive, sorry

I don't think you neccessarily need a H.E.A.T. charge. Think about it. The stomach is very sensitive. Now, we can assume that the sotmach of a pred is less sensitive, having evolved so due to a constant diet of non-chewed prey.

Even so, like Malahite said, there would be shards. Shards would cut. Cutting = bleeding. When the stomach walls are bleeding, you have acidic and basic compounds getting into a wound. The body usually doesn't respond well... and vomiting usually ensues.

Well, a naga's stomach is able to withstand grenades, which more often than not have shrapnel. However, I think that if inside a pred's stomach, you'd be best off with a thermite or white phosphorous grenade. I don't believe you can extniguish either with water, and the heat generated would almost assuredly burn a hole in the lining. After that, although it would be a long wait, the stomach acids may eventually burn a hole through the outer body...the only problem would be oxygen. Regardless, I think it makes more sense to talk about things that are within the size range of a portal, which aside from the one in Ur Sagol tend to be very unstable and limited in duration. However, I've noticed that Driders have been barely mentioned. Given their silk, which if it is of comparable strength to spider silk would probably be one of the strongest substances in or outside of Felarya, I wonder how they would factor into a battle on the preds side. I suspect the main use would be to force a choke point in dense areas.

my mage character electro: something with avery high lightning resistence, and high agility and hard to hit, or really, something that isn't a predator.

A predator, expecsaily one which has a very low lightning resistence: my mage character electro.

Byakugan01 wrote:

Well, a naga's stomach is able to withstand grenades, which more often than not have shrapnel. However, I think that if inside a pred's stomach, you'd be best off with a thermite or white phosphorous grenade. I don't believe you can extniguish either with water, and the heat generated would almost assuredly burn a hole in the lining. After that, although it would be a long wait, the stomach acids may eventually burn a hole through the outer body...the only problem would be oxygen. Regardless, I think it makes more sense to talk about things that are within the size range of a portal, which aside from the one in Ur Sagol tend to be very unstable and limited in duration. However, I've noticed that Driders have been barely mentioned. Given their silk, which if it is of comparable strength to spider silk would probably be one of the strongest substances in or outside of Felarya, I wonder how they would factor into a battle on the preds side. I suspect the main use would be to force a choke point in dense areas.

Well, two things: most nagas do not have stomachs that withstand grenades. Crisis has a strong stomach even among nagas. Trust me, I made the same mistake, and someone corrected me (I think maybe it was Karbo).

The second is that the dridder silk may still be vulnerable to fire (I don't know if spiderwebs burn, I'm just using the Zelda assumption). If not, a weapon with a sharp enough edge could cut it, as web's strength is that it is resistant to tension, not pressure. Pulling won't work. Slicing will.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

(I don't know if spiderwebs burn, I'm just using the Zelda assumption).

They burn pretty fast actually but not if their damp, then they just fizzle a little.

Reptillian wrote:

ZionAtriedes wrote:

(I don't know if spiderwebs burn, I'm just using the Zelda assumption).

They burn pretty fast actually but not if their damp, then they just fizzle a little.

Okay. I'll make a mental note of that.

In regards to the Anti-Magic debate...

It all depends upon the world you look at. For instance Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha Strikers depicts battles against a force that uses primarily energy based automated hovering weapons (nicknamed Gadgets) that are equipped with an Anti-Magic Field (Anti-magic shell basically) which allowed them to nullify magic in the area around them.

The Issue with the AMF was that the strength of the field was determined by its energy supply, effectively the field can only nullify magic to an extent. A higher level mage launching a higher yield magic attack would have reduced effectiveness, but still penetrate the field, while lower grade magic attacks would be useless.

In order to have lower grade mages take on these weapons they had to resort to a change of tactics. The Gunner mage of the Forward Team covered her magic bullets in a barrier, thus the field had to eat away at the barrier first, so the bullet had time to hit and penetrate its target. The Support caster had her dragon spirit unleash a fireball attack (Non magic except in guidance), which sufficiently disrupted the AMF to enable her to eliminate the targets with Alchemy. While the two front line fighters utilized their physical attacks to deliver the magical punch. Penetrate, then deliver the spell in the core of the unit, where the field could not be broadcasted from.


It is to be noted, that the AMF can overlap, which enabled a larger number of units to effectively nullify even higher level mages. With sheer numbers.

AM armor would not be able to do this, it could only nullify magic to the extent of its capabilities and then its done for. AoE magical attacks could eliminate a squad of AM armor equipped soldiers.

Now, if you combined the two, have AM armor as the core, then have an AMF, then that squad of soldiers will survive all but physical elemental based spells.

I expect that a Crimson Maidens fire spells are in actuality just fire guided by a magic shell, all an AMF would do is screw with accuracy, while the AM armor would be utterly useless.


So, I think it would be best to have a hybrid of some kind of Reaction Armor (Eliminate physical damage) and AM armor, supported by an AMF. Problem is supporting such an armors energy consumption, which I think only a mech of some kind could actually do. Which puts you on a competitive size of a pred, both in offense and defense.

Still would have limits.

TankHunter678 wrote:

So, I think it would be best to have a hybrid of some kind of Reaction Armor (Eliminate physical damage) and AM armor, supported by an AMF. Problem is supporting such an armors energy consumption, which I think only a mech of some kind could actually do. Which puts you on a competitive size of a pred, both in offense and defense.

There is the problem, it doesn't protect against to be bumped or shaken due to the impact, because it's affected the balance or the move in general. Any spells which affect the mobility or the gravity center will pass because it can affect the target without causing damage. For example a wave-like attack, the armor will resist to the collision but it will be swept by the wave and crushed by the weight and the pressure. Increasing the weight or the mass of an attack can bypass the resistance in general.

The other problem with physical protection it's the durability, it's offer a good protection at the beginning but it decrease quickly as the attacks increases.

And the spell affecting the senses, can work for example an optical illusion, or sound attack, or gas. For the optical and the gas it's possible to counter them with gas mask with special glasses but the sound it's particular, the best protection is to find a way to not hear but the problem the hearing is the only sense which prevent you from any attacks you don't see or smell. because you can get your attention quickly on a strange noise you heard.

An anti-magic protection have to be use in addition with evasion and stealthy abilities. It's true there is the spell which can affect the mobility but when if you can free yourself and hide your presence from the mage you have great chance to survive but you have to act quick before any kind of detection spells find you. When you attack a mage it's strongly advise to not let him the time to react.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

TankHunter678 wrote:

So, I think it would be best to have a hybrid of some kind of Reaction Armor (Eliminate physical damage) and AM armor, supported by an AMF. Problem is supporting such an armors energy consumption, which I think only a mech of some kind could actually do. Which puts you on a competitive size of a pred, both in offense and defense.

There is the problem, it doesn't protect against to be bumped or shaken due to the impact, because it's affected the balance or the move in general. Any spells which affect the mobility or the gravity center will pass because it can affect the target without causing damage. For example a wave-like attack, the armor will resist to the collision but it will be swept by the wave and crushed by the weight and the pressure. Increasing the weight or the mass of an attack can bypass the resistance in general.

The other problem with physical protection it's the durability, it's offer a good protection at the beginning but it decrease quickly as the attacks increases.

Alternatively, you could simply return fire immediately and put a hole in the predator's head, rather than sit there and see how durable your armor is.

Raveolution wrote:

Alternatively, you could simply return fire immediately and put a hole in the predator's head, rather than sit there and see how durable your armor is.

It would depend on what state you are after you take the attack on your face. If you are still conscious and able to move ok but if you are severely hurt and your mobility is affected it would be difficult to answer. After a violent vibration your brain has some difficulty to work so you time of reaction is increased and you start to move slowly so the more attack you take the more difficult it will be to you move.

The efficiency of an armour vary from your natural resistance and it doesn't protect against internal damage.

That's why in this kind of case, evasion is favoured.

Or armor not directly connected to you (see: Armour).

Funnily enough, anti-aircraft guns would probably be better against Pred's than anti-armour. High RoF, still a decent armour penetration (so it should shred into the thing nicely), can deal with big beasties as well as the 'small' gribblies, etc.

Meanwhile, flamethrowers of a certain quality or better are worthwhile. They're going to have at least a x3 advantage over a Predator's arm reach on average (at least x2 even if the Predator is leaning forward), and if hot enough the Pred's going to be too busy trying to put themselves out / get out of range to try eating you. Sure, doesn't work against Fire Elementals and things immune to fire, but those aren't that common.

Sonic attacks would be helpful, the issue is you're (unless technobabbley-precise) probably going to be nuking entire ecosystems in the process. On the plus side, it wouldn't be stopped by much, and it should work on most biological beings.

I wonder... How well does a fairy or harpy do against an AIM-9 Sidewinder or a garden variety SA-2 surface to air missile? Or micro missile pods (Itano circus style)?

BTW not saying that others shouldn't do it, but I'm not so comfortable anymore with the idea of Bolo tanks, etc. coming into the equation, that's just a personal thing. That's way too advanced for, say, 21st century Earth weaponry.

What can you do with, say, a self sufficient city built into the middle of a Felaryan forest, with a whole ensemble of science and military facilities, defended by F22 Raptors, Apache Longbows and a battalion of M1A2 Abrams tanks, plus modern artillery, radar and perhaps modern laser systems, plus Marine Force Recon, mobile Soviet-style nuclear missile launchers, etc.? Sounds like a more even playing field to me than, say, coming in heavy with Bolos, Mortar Hedds, Gundams, or even my favorite Aura Battlers.


Really, to get down to it, I'd like to see an F22 Raptor pulling a Pugachev Cobra or worse, a J-turn or a Mongoose Maneuver, in a dogfight with a fairy.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Raveolution wrote:

Alternatively, you could simply return fire immediately and put a hole in the predator's head, rather than sit there and see how durable your armor is.

It would depend on what state you are after you take the attack on your face. If you are still conscious and able to move ok but if you are severely hurt and your mobility is affected it would be difficult to answer. After a violent vibration your brain has some difficulty to work so you time of reaction is increased and you start to move slowly so the more attack you take the more difficult it will be to you move.

The efficiency of an armour vary from your natural resistance and it doesn't protect against internal damage.

That's why in this kind of case, evasion is favoured.

That's definitely a given. Especially the virtues of evasion, or more specifically, run/strafe and gun. But the way it sounded (I'm sure it wasn't meant that way), the two combatants would be standing there seeing whose armor can survive whose attack. Your armor is supposed to help you sustain less damage while you return game-ending (hopefully) lethal fire. Again, I'm not saying you guys MEANT to frame it in means of "let's see how much damage my armor takes before I die"

As for getting your head rung, well this could be where IFF/TADS type systems can help out big time. They existed as far back as the first generation AH Apache.

Self-Sufficient City is just about an oxymoron. Unless we're speaking major Hydroponics systems (or a dedicated caste of people who can cast spells similar to the Cleric's "Create food & water" spells from D&D), they are going to need at least one portal for trade so they can feed themselves. And that's just for food / water necessities. The need of either a portal or lots of mages increases the more arms you add, energy the town consumes, etc.

For what I think would allow the city to remain intact?

For standard troop armaments, you're going to want powerful weaponry. Almost everything you need to worry about has shit-high durability. For standard firearm, I'm thinking something similar to the AA-12, drums of HE ammunition, grenades, and a great deal of competence in the troops. With accuracy out to 200m they're going to get off at least one series of shots, and if you switch ammunition to something spray & pray on fully automatic you can take care of things such as Shrunk Fairies well enough (20 soldiers + 5 shots / second + conical area of effect = at least some pellets hit either the Fairy or the Wings). With the armor piercing ammunition, you can go through roughly a half-inch of steel. That's enough to go through a Predator's skin easily enough (as it's both unlikely to be that thick and unlikely to equal / surpass skin. Note I mean "skin", not scales or carapace).

Special squad weaponry, probably similar to modern day. SAW's will still be effective at annoying larger stuff / taking care of smaller things such as blood claws, anti-armour weaponry will be - while a waste against Spine Beetles (one-shot one-kill... but one-shot one-kill) - efficient for driving back Predators, etc. Weapons like Flamethrowers would also be re-introduced. With ranges around 80m, you'll be capable of irritating quite a few species. Armour-mounted versions would probably be more efficient, however.

Standard Grenades could be useful against hordes, but I'd actually support NBC types instead. Either something like White Phosphorous for fatal effects (try nailing a Predator in the face with one!) or if feeling less cruel non-fatal alternatives such as Tear Gas can drive off all but the hungriest / toughest / most determined predators.

There'd be a good deal of Artillery in the town, capable using either standard munitions or NBC (again). Main use would be for driving off concentrations getting too close for comfort, but you don't want to go out and meet. Sure, thick tree coverage... but that just means large slivers of wood raining down on something. Arm sized shards of wood = good projectiles against anything.

Stationary guns, stuff ranging from Railguns to regular cannons & anti-air weaponry. You're going to need stuff for driving off Harpies / Fairies, and the bigger weapons are going to be your only 'real' defense against determined larger Predators in numbers.



Of course, not to say Predators can't get around this. Make a leap-frog effect with domed "Walls of Force" to screen from incoming fire, raining fireballs of doom / house sized rocks in the town from afar, improvised armor made from metal plates as thick as a car is long... Predators have many ways to negate all of this. Even the NBC can be counter-acted with proper resistance enchantments, using specialist species, making efficient use of teleportation spells (teleport the White Phosphorous Grenade inside one of the enemy gun fortifications for some laughs), etc.

How about teleporting away the gun emplacements or troops' weapons?

Another factor I'd be considering is the ability to hit them before they see (and can cast spells against) you.

As for using mages to help out, heck, why not put out an APB for Felarya's Psionicists? A teeker would command top pay. See a pred, physically scramble their brain matter or squish their heart, fight over. Yeah, top pay indeed.

Raveolution wrote:

How about teleporting away the gun emplacements or troops' weapons?

Troops weapons may be possible, but Gun Emplacements seems unlikely. Why? Because there tends to be a limit, and if you can get rid of the Gun Emplacements that way you could probably teleport inside the city, grab people, and teleport out anyways.

[quuote]Another factor I'd be considering is the ability to hit them before they see (and can cast spells against) you.[/quote] Someone who waits until the enemy is in LoS to cast defensive spells is not using them right.

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As for using mages to help out, heck, why not put out an APB for Felarya's Psionicists? A teeker would command top pay. See a pred, physically scramble their brain matter or squish their heart, fight over. Yeah, top pay indeed.

Psykers are basically an Out-of-Context problem when dealing with Felaryans. Technology they're familiar with. Magic they're familiar with. Psionics? Not so much. "Psionics" that are magic in disguise, maybe, but not true Psionics.

All: Falcon punch!

Now THAT is spam, there.

To be honest, I suppose it all depends on the context. If you're talking advanced civilizations, (assuming lack of Guardian response) of course they could defend themselves, for the most part.

As for the psionics/magic thing... I've been meaning to make a thread in Ideas Discussion that reconciles the two and explains the science behind their coexistence. I was thinking that they'd be very similar in nature, but not exactly so.