Alright, everyone, let's make some magic!

Jew wrote:

Also AJ darling, while it is nice you're so passionate about stuff you care about, quoting an old post you made to another person last year comes off as looking a teeeeeny bit lazy.

Yeah, it is. I'm sleep deprived at the moment.
And wow, I didn't think that was last year... I remember it so well.

Jew wrote:

If magic was all the same type and only depended on what the user chose to do, mages and scientists would have to be functionally retarded not to figure it out. And when they inevitably did figure it out, Magic would become incredibly overpowered, with people being able to split atoms and whatever they wanted en masse.

The reason that scientists and mages haven't got a firm grasp on magic is that in worlds with sufficient magical energy for humans or other sapients to have developed their abilities, actual science is abandoned in favor of mysticism. Necessity is the mother of invention, and without needing to understand, you're much less likely to. In low-magic worlds, like Earth, scientific understanding of natural phenomena is required for advancement. Worlds like Felarya aren't very kind to scholars, who often don't come back from field studies.

As for overpowered magic, I direct the attention of the audience to the nature of the electric circuit. All materials have a certain resistance, as there are no perfect conductors. So, a sufficient amount of power passed through a circuit will cause it to overheat and blow. If the body of a caster is being used as a conduit for mystical energies, it stands to reason that no matter the power at the mage's disposal, using too much will tear the caster's body apart, literally.

Jew wrote:

It's basically forbidden here to talk about how giant predators shouldn't be able to move, breathe or anything else because it isn't possible and suspension of disbelief, while very useful and important, has a delicate balance. If you say that magic has to have some long, wanky summary but you're a nit picker if you ask about the giant airborne Harpies, it's insanely irritating and hypocrtical.

Is it forbidden? I've done it before. The Square-Cube Law does muddle things up a little, yes. However, people have come up with numerous shaky explanations. Mine is that the soil properties of Felarya boost the physical capabilities of predators enough to strengthen their cellular structure and counter the effects. Like I said: shaky, but better than nothing.

DeviantDiscordian wrote:

And I side with Anime-Junkie on the matter of magic being a handwave. Science and technology is one method of explaining and manipulating the world around you. Magic is another that is far different in the way it explains and manipulates things.

Why you gotta give props to Anime-Junkie on this? I totally said it first.

DeviantDiscordian wrote:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. And any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

In the end, they are one in the same.

Karbo wrote:

The predator sense : No questions of radioactivity here. Wizards are generally more easy to detect because they carry more magic in them and stick out more than a regular human or a Kowo cat for example

So, pretty much what I said earlier?

Karbo wrote:

On the general subject, I'm not really sure magic should have rules engraved in iron.. We must keep in mind that the world itself is not really a realistic one, and, in my opinion, shouldn't try too hard to be.

While Karbo does have the deciding voice when it comes to Felarya, I'd like to defend my stance: this isn't really an iron rule, it's a broad and very general explanation of the basic concepts. There's a lot of room for creativity and even some mysterious mysticism. We're just saying that it should be kept rational.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Why you gotta give props to Anime-Junkie on this? I totally said it first.

Because his post was right above mine But okay, props to you too.

Jew wrote:

I'm happy with this. Still, I would expect predators to be more likely to have a higher likelihood of having complementary affinities, just because it might give them that much more of an edge.

While this makes sense by an evolutionary standpoint (A Fire Naga who might learn magic - especially offensive magic - earlier in their life may live longer than another Naga who couldn't learn Magic until later), it also seems a bit of a favoritism to give them several advantages just-because. Mostly, however, it is minimal impact with Giant Predators as they are currently shown. When they're the size that Magic might help them, they're also too young (IMO) in mind to properly use it to their advantage. When they're fully developed, the magical power is of marginal importance when fighting anything other than well-armed prey caravans (which shouldn't be their targets in the first place: Would you try to take a Twinkie from inside a safe rigged to explode?) or other Giant Predators (which, barring a few racial animosities, appears to be nigh-non existent in most stories in part due to pre-established territories).

While it gives an edge, it isn't one that would provide a massive survival advantage. Technically, if you were arguing for that, Humans and Nekos should be the ones with the Magical Affinity, as they're the butt-monkeys of most things on Felarya and those with magical affinities would have a much greater survival chance.

Karbo wrote:

On the general subject, I'm not really sure magic should have rules engraved in iron.. We must keep in mind that the world itself is not really a realistic one, and, in my opinion, shouldn't try too hard to be. After all having 100 feet tall humanoid moving around is very difficult to explain to start with. I'm naturally bad at physics and mathematics but even I do recognize that fact ^^;

Honestly I agree with karbo here.

Also, explaining why or how fairy magic works would be incredibly difficult. Science is only explainable because we relate it to something else. That's also why the "it's right until proven otherwise" rule exists. Since it's magic that makes it even more of a delicate process.

A world makes sense as long as it obey's it's own logic, and if you break that here (which you very well could) then...it would wreak havoc. for lack of a better phrase.

Karbo wrote:

On the general subject, I'm not really sure magic should have rules engraved in iron..

I still think we need some base guidelines or something. At the very least, some of the magics used commonly in Felarya should have a bit of explanation behind them.
But I do agree, we can't be too restrictive at all. Since all magic is supposed to work in Felarya, if we try to define too much then we'll probably mess things up.

Karbo wrote:

We must keep in mind that the world itself is not really a realistic one, and, in my opinion, shouldn't try too hard to be.

Indeed, it is fantasy after all.

Karbo wrote:

For the element thing , as I see it, naturaly affinities do exist in certain individuals, but I don't think a being with an affinity for one should be absolutely forbidden to learn others as well. It's just that it would be very difficult and maybe not very worth it in the end.

That's pretty much what I'm trying to do. With my idea, they can learn it but as you said, it would be very hard and most likely not worth it.
My 'affinities' idea clears up a lot of things about X element nagas and other predators that have "elemental" magic. Especially because people might assume that because a character is a "X element" that they can automatically use the magic. With the affinities idea if a character is called a element naga (etc) then it means they have the affinity and can do the magic, if they just have the affinity, then they're just a character with X affinity.
Also, a character's affinity might be another thing to add to Oldman's information boxes.

Karbo wrote:

In that regard, that fire Dryad example is a nice one : the concept itself is of course silly and would be incredibly difficult for the dryad in question( as her whole being would revolt agaisnt making things burn, her mindset would not be ideally set up for it, and other dryads would be horrified at the idea as well and do they utmost to dissuade her ). But *materially* it could be possible if she had someone to teach her I think.

Exactly what I'm saying.

Hey, if that poor dryad wants to learn fire magic, it doesn't matter that she's not attuned to it, or that all the other dryads mock her and think she's a freak. I support you, my brave firewood!

Jaette_Troll wrote:

Hey, if that poor dryad wants to learn fire magic, it doesn't matter that she's not attuned to it, or that all the other dryads mock her and think she's a freak. I support you, my brave firewood!

get out of the sandbox, this is no place for loosers like you! XD

Malahite wrote:

While it gives an edge, it isn't one that would provide a massive survival advantage. Technically, if you were arguing for that, Humans and Nekos should be the ones with the Magical Affinity, as they're the butt-monkeys of most things on Felarya and those with magical affinities would have a much greater survival chance.

Yeah, I didn't really mention it, but one thing I think would be awesome is if the prey species had more varied and more developed forms of magic than the predators. Think about it, Predators take a long time to get old enough to breed, and most don't have many babies/most of the babies fall victim to survival of the fittest, so they're a race that's slow to develop. If you take the fact that they don't seem to have any way of recording knowlege aside from in their memories, they're at a disadvantage to the human magelets, who have instructors and a library, while poor predators are usually only able to get one teacher, if they're lucky. A person can only remember so much, while loads of people working towards the same goal and recording what they learn wields much more information.

TL;DR, books are good, reading is good, writing is good, predators are dummies and missing out on a lot

ZionAtriedes wrote:

The reason that scientists and mages haven't got a firm grasp on magic is that in worlds with sufficient magical energy for humans or other sapients to have developed their abilities, actual science is abandoned in favor of mysticism. Necessity is the mother of invention, and without needing to understand, you're much less likely to. In low-magic worlds, like Earth, scientific understanding of natural phenomena is required for advancement. Worlds like Felarya aren't very kind to scholars, who often don't come back from field studies.

Fair enough, it isn't like people from some other world who know the first thing about Science ever appear in Felarya along with the mages... WAIT A MINUTE

ZionAtriedes wrote:

As for overpowered magic, I direct the attention of the audience to the nature of the electric circuit. All materials have a certain resistance, as there are no perfect conductors. So, a sufficient amount of power passed through a circuit will cause it to overheat and blow. If the body of a caster is being used as a conduit for mystical energies, it stands to reason that no matter the power at the mage's disposal, using too much will tear the caster's body apart, literally.

A fanbase has to be even stupider than this one to need iron rules to stop magic being OP. Anyone with a quarter of a brain can figure out when to stop, so I don't think we need a completely new, completely different set of rules that fuck up old stories.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Is it forbidden? I've done it before. The Square-Cube Law does muddle things up a little, yes. However, people have come up with numerous shaky explanations. Mine is that the soil properties of Felarya boost the physical capabilities of predators enough to strengthen their cellular structure and counter the effects. Like I said: shaky, but better than nothing.

Most times I've seen that discussion pop up, people say 'It's just fantasy, relax.' And I agree with them. As Karbo said, if you can overlook 70 foot nagas slither around and harpies weighing hundreds of tons fly in the sky, you don't need a long, wanky description of magic.

Personally I think that going to great lengths to put detail to magic while ignoring how giants work is the worst of both fantasy fanboi and fetishist - they'e too eager to go into detail about stuff no-one else cares about, but at the same time too busy 'admiring' the pretty giantesses to even <i>think</i> of applying logic to them.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

DeviantDiscordian wrote:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. And any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

In the end, they are one in the same.

As the child of a Scientist and an amateur dabbler please excuse me while I go into a sobbing depression/screaming rage

Jew wrote:

Malahite wrote:

While it gives an edge, it isn't one that would provide a massive survival advantage. Technically, if you were arguing for that, Humans and Nekos should be the ones with the Magical Affinity, as they're the butt-monkeys of most things on Felarya and those with magical affinities would have a much greater survival chance.

Yeah, I didn't really mention it, but one thing I think would be awesome is if the prey species had more varied and more developed forms of magic than the predators. Think about it, Predators take a long time to get old enough to breed, and most don't have many babies/most of the babies fall victim to survival of the fittest, so they're a race that's slow to develop. If you take the fact that they don't seem to have any way of recording knowlege aside from in their memories, they're at a disadvantage to the human magelets, who have instructors and a library, while poor predators are usually only able to get one teacher, if they're lucky. A person can only remember so much, while loads of people working towards the same goal and recording what they learn wields much more information.

TL;DR, books are good, reading is good, writing is good, predators are dummies and missing out on a lot

I think Fairies have books on magic...

Info from manga:

Jew wrote:

ZionAtriedes wrote:

The reason that scientists and mages haven't got a firm grasp on magic is that in worlds with sufficient magical energy for humans or other sapients to have developed their abilities, actual science is abandoned in favor of mysticism. Necessity is the mother of invention, and without needing to understand, you're much less likely to. In low-magic worlds, like Earth, scientific understanding of natural phenomena is required for advancement. Worlds like Felarya aren't very kind to scholars, who often don't come back from field studies.

Fair enough, it isn't like people from some other world who know the first thing about Science ever appear in Felarya along with the mages... WAIT A MINUTE

ZionAtriedes wrote:

As for overpowered magic, I direct the attention of the audience to the nature of the electric circuit. All materials have a certain resistance, as there are no perfect conductors. So, a sufficient amount of power passed through a circuit will cause it to overheat and blow. If the body of a caster is being used as a conduit for mystical energies, it stands to reason that no matter the power at the mage's disposal, using too much will tear the caster's body apart, literally.

A fanbase has to be even stupider than this one to need iron rules to stop magic being OP. Anyone with a quarter of a brain can figure out when to stop, so I don't think we need a completely new, completely different set of rules that fuck up old stories.

When I wrote my idea, I specifically included allowances to keep continuity older stories.

Jew wrote:

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Is it forbidden? I've done it before. The Square-Cube Law does muddle things up a little, yes. However, people have come up with numerous shaky explanations. Mine is that the soil properties of Felarya boost the physical capabilities of predators enough to strengthen their cellular structure and counter the effects. Like I said: shaky, but better than nothing.

Most times I've seen that discussion pop up, people say 'It's just fantasy, relax.' And I agree with them. As Karbo said, if you can overlook 70 foot nagas slither around and harpies weighing hundreds of tons fly in the sky, you don't need a long, wanky description of magic.

Personally I think that going to great lengths to put detail to magic while ignoring how giants work is the worst of both fantasy fanboi and fetishist - they'e too eager to go into detail about stuff no-one else cares about, but at the same time too busy 'admiring' the pretty giantesses to even <i>think</i> of applying logic to them.

I did try once, but the thread degenerated (this was during the November incident ). I'd attempt again but I'd probably just get "IT'S FANTASY! FORGET IT!"

Jew wrote:

ZionAtriedes wrote:

DeviantDiscordian wrote:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. And any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

In the end, they are one in the same.

As the child of a Scientist and an amateur dabbler please excuse me while I go into a sobbing depression/screaming rage

While my reaction is not quite as extreme as Jew's I do agree with him. There is a distinction.

Jew, your points are interesting but I would appreciate if you toned down the contemptuous and sneery tone a bit.

Karbo wrote:

Jew, your points are interesting but I would appreciate if you toned down the contemptuous and sneery tone a bit.

What? Other people have been just as contemptuous and sneery as me. Don't mean to rag on AJ but he linked me to a post that bagged someone who wasn't even here, which I think could be summed as 'Your opinion is silly and so are you'. But that's no reason for an Admin to get involved, people on forums do that sort of thing. Relax man, Relaaaaaaax.

I didn't think I was being particularly snarky anyway, compared to plenty of posters around here. Perhaps you should post a rule clearly stating which users are allowed to be snarky and which aren't? That'd help newbies like me learn their place.

Jew wrote:

What? Other people have been just as contemptuous and sneery as me. Don't mean to rag on AJ but he linked me to a post that bagged someone who wasn't even here, which I think could be summed as 'Your opinion is silly and so are you'. But that's no reason for an Admin to get involved, people on forums do that sort of thing. Relax man, Relaaaaaaax.

I didn't think I was being particularly snarky anyway, compared to plenty of posters around here. Perhaps you should post a rule clearly stating which users are allowed to be snarky and which aren't? That'd help newbies like me learn their place.

Oh please don't give me that
this isn't a question of being a newbie or not. when I read the thread, I see the discussion is not especially friendly indeed, but the rethoric of your interventions stick out at being openly and needlessly provocative.

There are rules on that forum : https://felarya.forumotion.com/general-discussion-f1/rules-read-before-posting--t2.htm. You are welcome to make your points, which are interesting, but provocations are not tolerated here. And that goes for anyone, newbie or not.

As for Subeta having a book on magic - considering Subeta it's most likely she "found" such a book, especially since it has a human author - this doesn't mean fairies themselves have books on magic... or even that they can read... which is probably why the usually... hoardish Subeta was willing to part with it so easily.

To be fair, the size advantage of the preds would help make up for a lack of finesse/teaching. I mean, even if a pred can only do a basic fireball...that fireball is still the size of a small house. But yes, most preds are illiterate and lack an organized society. They learn things from their parents, their friends and their own life experiances. ...with the exception of the fairies and dridders...which do seem to have a more organized structure to their species.

As for the size, the most widely accepted answer is that it has something to do with the wierd dimensional chemistry of Felarya. The preds are scaled different, or affected differently by it, which is what allows them to behave essentially like a normal-sized person, and cheat around the square-cubed law.

Oh? I always suspected Felarya was a normal sized planet with normal sized inhabitants and humans all shrink whenever they go there. XD

Jætte_Troll wrote:

Oh? I always suspected Felarya was a normal sized planet with normal sized inhabitants and humans all shrink whenever they go there. XD

You too?

Anyway, Karbo, what I meant by radioactivity was precisely magic. In general, I used to prefer wizards to be armed with just knowledge, so that magic could be a science. Then I realized that meant the weird mumbling kid in the corner who could find prime numbers in his sleep was capable of destroying my soul. With his brain. So now I think I'd sooner take it as that magic is some sort of energy which people can be born with lots of (and then get to be the Chosen One), and some people get only enough for government work (which can still be enough for military applications, if you study hard).

Also, DAMN YEAH! The Amazing Shrinking Tonorion was a plot point! I KNEW IT!!!!! I knew it! I can smell a plot point from a mile away! OH YEAH! Who's got the Plot Sense?! I do, bitches!

I have an opinion and some stuff to add on this, but I forgot it at home. Don't eat each other out while I'm gone.

Jætte_Troll wrote:

Oh? I always suspected Felarya was a normal sized planet with normal sized inhabitants and humans all shrink whenever they go there. XD

To be honest, I kinda thought this, too.... ^^;

Stabs wrote:

I have an opinion and some stuff to add on this, but I forgot it at home. Don't eat each other out while I'm gone.

I'm going to assume you meant something entirely different here.

Jætte_Troll wrote:

Stabs wrote:

I have an opinion and some stuff to add on this, but I forgot it at home. Don't eat each other out while I'm gone.

I'm going to assume you meant something entirely different here.

Yes, it was about the main topic rather than about your theory of a smaller Felarya. Still don't eat each other.

Jew wrote:

Don't mean to rag on AJ but he linked me to a post that bagged someone who wasn't even here, which I think could be summed as 'Your opinion is silly and so are you'.

That's bagging someone? The main point of that post was: "If people want to to do it why stop them if they come up with something that works well?"
I didn't write it to bag him out, I like Falconjudge.

Jew wrote:

Fair enough, it isn't like people from some other world who know the first thing about Science ever appear in Felarya along with the mages... WAIT A MINUTE

Because, as we know, scientists always appear RIGHT NEAR settled areas where they can spread their knowledge and have no reason to worry about giant preds lurking nearby... WAIT A MINUTE!

Jew wrote:

A fanbase has to be even stupider than this one to need iron rules to stop magic being OP. Anyone with a quarter of a brain can figure out when to stop, so I don't think we need a completely new, completely different set of rules that fuck up old stories.

It was never my intention to invalidate old stories. In fact, if you would have been paying attention, you would have realized that I never particularly invalidated any specific forms of magic: I worked AROUND them to simply make them more rational. And in my experience, people with a quarter of a brain are in short supply nowadays.

Jew wrote:

Most times I've seen that discussion pop up, people say 'It's just fantasy, relax.' And I agree with them. As Karbo said, if you can overlook 70 foot nagas slither around and harpies weighing hundreds of tons fly in the sky, you don't need a long, wanky description of magic.

Personally I think that going to great lengths to put detail to magic while ignoring how giants work is the worst of both fantasy fanboi and fetishist - they'e too eager to go into detail about stuff no-one else cares about, but at the same time too busy 'admiring' the pretty giantesses to even <i>think</i> of applying logic to them.

I don't ignore how giants work. Trust me, I go into detail about EVERYTHING, whether people care about it or not. Pardon me for expecting people to be, I dunno, INTELLIGENT? Banish the thought!

Jew wrote:

ZionAtriedes wrote:

DeviantDiscordian wrote:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. And any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

In the end, they are one in the same.

As the child of a Scientist and an amateur dabbler please excuse me while I go into a sobbing depression/screaming rage

You're excused. You're obviously a person of effete nature, so far be it from me to shove a hot rod of opposing opinion up your ass. Never mind my constant assertions that magic is simply a manipulation of scientific laws and phenomena, so that judging by the model that THREE DIFFERENT PEOPLE here are supporting, my statement would be perfectly acceptable.

Now how is THAT for snark? I hope Karbo can excuse that little bit... but hey, if we can have mods that flash a little attitude whenever there's an opposing opinion, I think I can be excused for simply defending my own stance.

Alright let's stop with the angry posts, name calling and such now.
Make your points calmly and don't respond to provocations by pouring more oil into the fire yourself.

You're right. It was immature of me. Lo siento. 'Twas un-Christian, and sets a bad example.

Karbo wrote:

Oh please don't give me that
this isn't a question of being a newbie or not. when I read the thread, I see the discussion is not especially friendly indeed, but the rethoric of your interventions stick out at being openly and needlessly provocative.

There are rules on that forum : https://felarya.forumotion.com/general-discussion-f1/rules-read-before-posting--t2.htm. You are welcome to make your points, which are interesting, but provocations are not tolerated here. And that goes for anyone, newbie or not.

Guess so, I apoligize. Still, have you seen the responses to Shingakku's threads in Character discussion? The worst response to one of them is THIS CHAR SUCKS BALLS!!! written in large bold text. And Shin doesn't even speak proper English, so he can't really defend himself. I'm not saying that makes me being a bit of dick OK, but I guess it did give me the impression people here were used to more snark than you seem to be OK with, so I'll try to tone it down. (Also, I think I read the rules before, but that link you left just goes to the front page.)

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Because, as we know, scientists always appear RIGHT NEAR settled areas where they can spread their knowledge and have no reason to worry about giant preds lurking nearby... WAIT A MINUTE!

True, it'd take them time till they were able to combine their research with magic, but it'd be just about impossible for them to never ever never survive long enough to reach a safe zone like Negav, which of course is crawling with mages. Unless predators are preprogrammed to attack white coats above all else, some of them must make it.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

It was never my intention to invalidate old stories. In fact, if you would have been paying attention, you would have realized that I never particularly invalidated any specific forms of magic: I worked AROUND them to simply make them more rational. And in my experience, people with a quarter of a brain are in short supply nowadays.

As I said, while it didn't directly make the stories wrong, by saying that magic works in a completely different way from many wise old wizards and other types say it does, you make them seem much less credible. Why should you listen to the great mighty wizard if all his knowlege about his job is suddenly inncorect, otr at the best inacurate?

ZionAtriedes wrote:

I don't ignore how giants work. Trust me, I go into detail about EVERYTHING, whether people care about it or not. Pardon me for expecting people to be, I dunno, INTELLIGENT? Banish the thought!

Don't get so mad. Plenty of things in fantasy have no hope at all of being explained from a Scientific standpoint, or without destroying the suspension of disbelief. This is one of them.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

You're excused. You're obviously a person of effete nature, so far be it from me to shove a hot rod of opposing opinion up your ass.

But Zion... that is where I poop from!