On Nekomura and Negav

or, Am I the Only One Who Thinks Nekomura is Getting a Raw Deal?

(The following is an excerpt of a lecture delivered by professor David Smith, as part of his course on History and Moral Philosophy. In it, he argues that nekos bear no collective guilt for the wrong-doing of a single one of their race: which others, human and neko alike, have argued. What made this lecture controversial was his implication that the Magiocrats were blackmailing the people of Nekomura, by levying a heavy price in exchange for safety from predators. He wonders, idly, whether the Magiocrats are the true predators in Felarya...)

To introduce this discourse, we must start with a little background from the Histories:

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During the Great Destruction, when a good part of Negav was destroyed, and Micolon eaten, the local neko villages suffered badly as well, with many of their inhabitants devoured. In the aftermath, neko survivors helped the humans rebuild and reinforce Negav. The humans were grateful, and when the dust of destruction and rebuilding settled, many nekos remained in the safety of the city, feeling welcome at last. Several years later, however, racial tensions were again running high, in part because king Micolon was held by many negavians to solely responsible for the catastrophe that destroyed so much of the city.

To summarize, when Micolon met his rather ignoble end, the city was in chaos. The survivors, human and neko alike, rebuilt Negav. However, because tensions between the two groups have persisted, the several years of harmony were doomed to failure; the glow of that "front populaire", that camaraderie in the collective effort to rebuilt the city, faded as time passed. Micolon, justly in this one's opinion, was held responsible for the Great Destruction. However, as is in the nature of human beings, guilt was extended from Micolon to the race he arose from. When the Council took over, a great many nekos fled to found Nekomura. However, this is not where our story ends:

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...Ps'isol magiocrats offered the nekos a crystal of the same kind as the Isolon Eye in Negav, as a sign of "eternal friendship". The neko's crystal, however, is a mere shadow of the original...unlike the eye, this crystal must be regularly recharged by the mages of Negav, which they do for a fee. ...the nekos...dutifully pay the fee as they know the crystal is the only thing keeping ravenous predators at bay.

So, upon leaving the city, this crystal was offered under the pretense of friendship-however, I think you all would know that such pretenses disguise baser motives. Since the erection of the crystal, revenues from those fees have flowed into the Councils coffers; however, it is far from the main source of revenues, those deriving from duties and other internal taxes. The primary purpose is that of control and manipulation-as the policies that the villages leadership have implemented seem quite congenial to the Council's overall interests. If one may permit idle speculation on my part, this foreshadows what may come to pass if the council expands it's influence to other settlements outside our city's walls. One must wonder, if the the purpose of the crystal is to keep out competition in the game of predation...

I suppose the fact the Magiocrats have oppted to be responsible for Nekomura's safty could show that they want to expand their powerbase beyond Negav's walls. That your they feel sorry for all the xenophobia, but I doubt that.

CauldronBorn24 wrote:

I suppose the fact the Magiocrats have opted to be responsible for Nekomura's safety could show that they want to expand their powerbase beyond Negav's walls. That or they feel sorry for all the xenophobia, but I doubt that.

(Edited for spelling)

Indeed, have you read your Machiavelli? Every political body seeks three things regarding power:
1)Gain it
2)Maintain it
3)Expand it

Militant-Prey wrote:

CauldronBorn24 wrote:

I suppose the fact the Magiocrats have opted to be responsible for Nekomura's safety could show that they want to expand their powerbase beyond Negav's walls. That or they feel sorry for all the xenophobia, but I doubt that.

(Edited for spelling)

Indeed, have you read your Machiavelli? Every political body seeks three things regarding power:
1)Gain it
2)Maintain it
3)Expand it

Technically, Machiavelli was very keen on republics - he couldn't stand dictatorships.

It's just that because Prince is so widespread, so easy to get into, is stripped of its main bite (Specifically: Being written almost as a piece of sarcasm), and so on that Machiavellian is seen as "Evil Dictator 101".

Malahite wrote:

Militant-Prey wrote:

CauldronBorn24 wrote:

I suppose the fact the Magiocrats have opted to be responsible for Nekomura's safety could show that they want to expand their powerbase beyond Negav's walls. That or they feel sorry for all the xenophobia, but I doubt that.

(Edited for spelling)

Indeed, have you read your Machiavelli? Every political body seeks three things regarding power:
1)Gain it
2)Maintain it
3)Expand it

Technically, Machiavelli was very keen on republics - he couldn't stand dictatorships.

It's just that because Prince is so widespread, so easy to get into, is stripped of its main bite (Specifically: Being written almost as a piece of sarcasm), and so on that Machiavellian is seen as "Evil Dictator 101".

I know, I know. Seen in one light, Machiavelli was revealing the true nature of non-republican government; that, rather than ruling with divine intent, it is just a gaggle of power-hungry jackasses.

The government in Negav is not a democracy or republic rather it is akin to an oligarchy.

Beyond Negav and possibly Nekomunda there is very little for the Magiocrats to expand into; they already oversee the Ascarlin trade from the near by mines; beyond that is tameless wilderness. One needs to remember that the idea of expansion will raise some very vocal objections in Felarya when one looks at the fate of Ur-Sagol. Rather than looking to expand the Magiocrats would keep within the walls of Negav; making sure they retain the lion's share of the power.

I understand that, CauldronBorn24. It's fairly obvious that Negav is not a democracy.

What I disagree with is that there are no places for it to expand it's influence. There must be numerous scattered villages that they could offer "protection" to.

Human communities in Felarya are scattered and there is little if any contact between them. As humans are not the dominant speices they cannot freely expand like we have done on Earth; the jungle and just about every other terrain is hostile, travel is very dangerous and while there is a great mix of technologies there is no real inferstructure apart from localised areas like Negav.

CauldronBorn24 wrote:

Human communities in Felarya are scattered and there is little if any contact between them. As humans are not the dominant speices they cannot freely expand like we have done on Earth; the jungle and just about every other terrain is hostile, travel is very dangerous and while there is a great mix of technologies there is no real inferstructure apart from localised areas like Negav.

Surely, though, they are aware of their existence? Surely, at least some faction things they should extend their "protection" to these scatted communities?

Consider earlier ages in human history; lacking modern infrastructure, many great empires still formed.

Even so, I see your point.

Militant-Prey wrote:

CauldronBorn24 wrote:

Human communities in Felarya are scattered and there is little if any contact between them. As humans are not the dominant speices they cannot freely expand like we have done on Earth; the jungle and just about every other terrain is hostile, travel is very dangerous and while there is a great mix of technologies there is no real inferstructure apart from localised areas like Negav.

Surely, though, they are aware of their existence? Surely, at least some faction things they should extend their "protection" to these scatted communities?

Consider earlier ages in human history; lacking modern infrastructure, many great empires still formed.

Even so, I see your point.

It is possible that a place like Negav would exist in the stories and legends of these isolated communities but that's about it. I highy doubt any Magiocrat would risk themselves or property over taxing some backwater in the middle of the jungle when they can grow rich off what they already have.

There are natural forces in Felarya which keep the balance, making sure nothing becomes too powerful that it may disrupt the balance that already exists; the Guardians. For someone to expand as you describe it would draw their attention and like I said earlier they only need to look at Ur-Sagol to know that is a bad idea.

Quote :

It is possible that a place like Negav would exist in the stories and legends of these isolated communities but that's about it. I highy doubt any Magiocrat would risk themselves or property over taxing some backwater in the middle of the jungle when they can grow rich off what they already have.

There are natural forces in Felarya which keep the balance, making sure nothing becomes too powerful that it may disrupt the balance that already exists; the Guardians. For someone to expand as you describe it would draw their attention and like I said earlier they only need to look at Ur-Sagol to know that is a bad idea.

Hmm, interesting. I wouldn't call the guardians "natural", so much as divine, but even without the Guardians Felarya poses challenges that frustrate empire. So, dropping that idea...

Perhaps a possible story dynamic is worth exploring; the gradual expansion of communications with other communities. Anime-Junkies ideas for "jetbikes" open the way to that. However, this is not an invitation to empire; instead of a single unit, the linking together of many units through air-based travel seems to be in order.

Militant-Prey wrote:

Quote :

It is possible that a place like Negav would exist in the stories and legends of these isolated communities but that's about it. I highy doubt any Magiocrat would risk themselves or property over taxing some backwater in the middle of the jungle when they can grow rich off what they already have.

There are natural forces in Felarya which keep the balance, making sure nothing becomes too powerful that it may disrupt the balance that already exists; the Guardians. For someone to expand as you describe it would draw their attention and like I said earlier they only need to look at Ur-Sagol to know that is a bad idea.

Hmm, interesting. I wouldn't call the guardians "natural", so much as divine, but even without the Guardians Felarya poses challenges that frustrate empire. So, dropping that idea...

Perhaps a possible story dynamic is worth exploring; the gradual expansion of communications with other communities. Anime-Junkies ideas for "jetbikes" open the way to that. However, this is not an invitation to empire; instead of a single unit, the linking together of many units through air-based travel seems to be in order.

Good, trying to promote the idea of a human empire on Felarya will draw a lot of fire your way.

Don't get me started on the difficulties for the logistics for air travel in Felarya, if you are set on that idea however talk to myself, Anime-Junkie, Malahite, Oldman40K2003 or rcs619 first.

CauldronBorn24 wrote:

Good, trying to promote the idea of a human empire on Felarya will draw a lot of fire your way.

Don't get me started on the difficulties for the logistics for air travel in Felarya, if you are set on that idea however talk to myself, Anime-Junkie, Malahite, Oldman40K2003 or rcs619 first.

I wasn't trying to promote a human empire; not at all. On the contrary, I am against the idea as much as you are. I was just suggesting that, given the power-hungry nature of the Magiocrats, that the way they treat Nekomura gives one an idea as to how they would go about expanding their sphere of influence. I mean, think about it. Your village is being attack by predators. Along comes Negav, promising protection via a crystal that wards off predators. You accept, only to find that it needs to be recharged-and they demand a high fee in exchange. And if you're unable to pay...

I think what a lot of people overlook are Negav's offworld expansions.

Basically, they can't really expand in Felarya for a couple reasons. The main reason is that other settlements are usually too scattered and too small to find in the first place, and the danger involved is usually not worth it. The second main issue is that almost no settlements actually use money of any sort. Negav has a monetary system because it trades to many different worlds. Nekomura has one because it has to trade regularly with Negav.

None of the small settlements would use money of any kind because they simply have no use for it. I imagine they would be hesitant to trade as well, since they probably only have enough for themselves anyway.

The only other big settlement we actually know of is Chiotia City, which is way on the far east of the map in the Topazial Sea. They are a port city that provides safe harbor for the various human vessels that travel along the Topazial island chains. They likely have a monetary system, with a very heavy influence on trade. Goods you can actually use are better than shiny pieces of metal you can't really use for anything.

This is where we get to my first point. Negav doesn't care about any of the smaller settlements. Hell, they probably only cared about Nekomura because, one, the nekos were actually gullable enough to fall for it, and two, it let them extend their Isolon Network a little further, giving them a slightly larger safe-zone around Negav. But Negav isn't going to be concerned with expanding deeper into the jungle, or teaming up with the small settlements for one reaosn. It is an inter-dimensional trade superpower.

Negav regularly trades with over a dozen different worlds, making an insane profit from not only ascarlin, but all the other rare goods and minerals they trade. They use a fraction of this profit to purchase up what must be a staggering amount of money's worth of goods and supplies to import. There are probably whole businesses on other worlds that are completely supported by their trade with Negav.

Now, while Negav can't, and doesn't need to really expand into the forest...who's to say they haven't been expanding offworld? Its not like Negav is randomly opening dimensional portals. They have a very organized and regulated trade system, and that would require specific, static entry points to where you want to trade with. It wouldn't suprise me if Negav has built up small settlements or outposts around its entry points into other worlds. Hell, people probably come from all over to set up shop near the entry point to trade with people who come through, or enter Negav to sell their wares.

I imagine it is quite likely that Negav has many small proxy settlements all over the universe, built around the entry points they use on that particular world. The Magiocrats are probably a very busy bunch and have to routinely go off-world for short stints to monitor off-world assets, meet with diplomats, set up new trade agreements and so on.

Keep in mind, Negav isn't just some static fortress-city. Its a fortress-city that has spread its trade influence out to over a dozen different worlds. There are probably multiple points of entry on each world they trade with as well, to take advantage of how diverse different regions and different people can be.

That's the main reason Negav adopts such a defensive stance. There's no real need to expand, since they make most of their profit from offworld trade. All they have to worry about is keeping Negav fortified, and protecting shipments that come in from the mines. Any serious expansion out into the jungle would just be a money sink, and probably cost the lives of too many valuable soldiers and mages to be worthwhile.

Not to mention the fact that they would need to be able to create another Isolon Eye, and Im not sure if even the Magiocrats know how to do that anymore. The range of the Eye's effect is likely the biggest factor that determined Negav's current size.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the Guardians are not some divine, omniscient force concerned by the average comings and goings on Felarya. Negav could probably take over half the Tolmeshal forest and they wouldn't care. The ONLY time they ever get involved is when something threatens the balance of ALL of Felarya, not just one tiny speck of jungle on one continent. The Ur-Sagolians were up to something more than just Imperial expansion to get the Guardians' attention. There's something we don't know. The Guardians are just powerful mortals that try to keep the whole world from going to hell. They are far from divine, and far from all-knowing. It takes a LOT to even get them to bat an eye your way.

A-Okay rcs619. I've been away for a long while, so this helps me get back to speed.

By the way, I always thought that doodle of Fiona was adorably goofy. Like's she's saying "Oh hai there!"

Militant-Prey wrote:

A-Okay rcs619. I've been away for a long while, so this helps me get back to speed.

By the way, I always thought that doodle of Fiona was adorably goofy. Like's she's saying "Oh hai there!"

Its an interesting area of discussion. Negav is a neat place, you could probably set several stories series within the city alone, never even touch the wilderness outside, and still get damn good stories. I believe Caldron is currently attempting that. There's a lot going on in that city.

lol, yeah. About my thoughts on the doodle too ^^

rcs619 wrote:

Keep in mind, Negav isn't just some static fortress-city. Its a fortress-city that has spread its trade influence out to over a dozen different worlds. There are probably multiple points of entry on each world they trade with as well, to take advantage of how diverse different regions and different people can be. .

I can imagine a satellite city of Negav on another world that acts as the "dock" so to speak. All civilizations that want to trade with Negav first have to go to that particular world first and get a pass. I can imagine it like some kind of airport, where flights are scheduled so things dont get too crowded when they go through the dimensional gate just to the rear of Negav.

Well, perhaps some other ideas...I have been talking /w Anime-Junkie on his Jetbike idea.

I don't exactly know what I raw deal is and I've always found that "We offer you protection, but you must pay for it, otherwise you're on your own" was a dick move from Negav, but what do I know.

Something that has been bugging me: if Negav has found a huge vein of Ascarlin, why doesn't it devaluate it? I could use a bit more knowledge on the economical impacts of finding a resource for money, because I have a similar plot point in mind later.

Sean Okotami wrote:

I don't exactly know what I raw deal is and I've always found that "We offer you protection, but you must pay for it, otherwise you're on your own" was a dick move from Negav, but what do I know.

Something that has been bugging me: if Negav has found a huge vein of Ascarlin, why doesn't it devaluate it? I could use a bit more knowledge on the economical impacts of finding a resource for money, because I have a similar plot point in mind later.

Keep in mind who controls it. The Magiocrats excersize exclusive, or nearly exclusive control over the ascarlin mining, transport and trade.

It isn't like the California gold rush, where a bunch of people struck gold, flooded the market with it and devalued it. This is a single group doing it. They can control exactly how much is sold and traded, to manipulate the prices. They probably do similar things with some of the other rare minerals.

Not to mention Ascarlin is exceedingly rare, and they are likely the only source of it for a decent number of worlds. They can charge whatever they want if there's no competition.

Oh, so if I understand, they decide how much is used for powering up magical items (since it's apparently what they're famous for), and how much will go in their own stash, so it stays valuable, but have some form in reserve as money? I'm probably wrong for the last part, because I used to view gold rushes and finding oil in cartoons as "instant wealth", which I now know is more complicated than this.

Sean Okotami wrote:

Oh, so if I understand, they decide how much is used for powering up magical items

how much what?

Sean Okotami wrote:

(since it's apparently what they're famous for), and how much will go in their own stash, so it stays valuable, but have some form in reserve as money? I'm probably wrong for the last part, because I used to view gold rushes and finding oil in cartoons as "instant wealth", which I now know is more complicated than this.

well...yeah. managers have a lot of power huh?

I mean, the US gold stash doesn't instantly put all the gold into all the currency all at once, that'd ruin the economy.(I know that was phrased odd forgive me) I mean, it would probably be held in some chamber beneath the city, but whether or not they take from treasury and add it to their own wallets is their own decision.

Quote :

Something that has been bugging me: if Negav has found a huge vein of Ascarlin, why doesn't it devaluate it? I could use a bit more knowledge on the economical impacts of finding a resource for money, because I have a similar plot point in mind later.

You skipped that post, Bael.

You don't mine it all at once, even if you do find one. You'd do it over a period of time, and send chunks of it back to the city. It's pretty simple, if a massive influx of money comes in, then the economy generally will take a dive, and inflation will rise, it doesn't matter what is used to determine the value.

The only time when you'd want to do that is during a recession or depression, spending more is healthy for the economy, and makes things more valuable. There's probably a lot of ascarlin still left, but it's being brought back little at a time for various reasons. (like economy and predators)

Archmage_Bael wrote:

You don't mine it all at once, even if you do find one. You'd do it over a period of time, and send chunks of it back to the city. It's pretty simple, if a massive influx of money comes in, then the economy generally will take a dive, and inflation will rise, it doesn't matter what is used to determine the value.

The only time when you'd want to do that is during a recession or depression, spending more is healthy for the economy, and makes things more valuable. There's probably a lot of ascarlin still left, but it's being brought back little at a time for various reasons. (like economy and predators)

Well, here we enter some of the more controversial aspects of economic theory. The other possibility is to let prices decline until they reach a point people are willing to buy. That may take a long time, and it is debated whether one should wait that long. Then there is the issue of how crisises get started...look, this just brings in the real world. And right now, such a topic is driving everyone crazy.