Negav and the Inter/Intranet

First of all, do we even have a solid and concrete idea of what Negav's technology is other than what we THINK it is?

Second, I could see it being used as bulletin boards and billboards for business, as well as a way to do status reports and what not, since a pen and paper would take aeons to finish.

rcs619 wrote:

Beyond simple bulletin boards, and email, there really isn't any reason for the average Negavian to want or care about an internet. Compters gained their massive popularity from an increasingly sedentary lifestyle, and have ONLY dropped so much in price because millions of people buy them all the time.

No, it's because they became easier and cheaper to produce.

rcs619 wrote:

Negav is home to somewhere between 700,000 - 900,000 people...and most of those people either live in the poor district, or in the Pit, or are transitory adventurers or merchants who don't even live in Negav all the time.

It's a fairly number, if 100 000 - 200 000 consumers is ok.

rcs619 wrote:

There just is not enough of a consumer base to have any kind of complex electronics like that. You won't have television, you won't have movie production in Negav, you won't have most types of "modern" entertainment.Radios work because the technology is simple, programming is easy and cheap to make...and once people buy the radio, it works and gives them access to free entertainment. Movie theators, plays, and maybe sporting events work as well. Things where large numbers of people can be entertained for a relatively low admission price

Free entertainment I have some doubt due to the censorship of the political faction. The program of Radio will most of the time propaganda for the vish or the Magi and independent radio stations will be under strict control, yeah free entertainment. Censor in radio and television is easier to apply than in network communication.

rcs619 wrote:

There is just no reason for a big, complex internet in Negav...and it just doesn't fit in with the technology, infrastructure or culture that is already in place within the city.

They are flexible and adaptable.

Quote :

The program of Radio will most of the time propaganda for the vish or the Magi

Or known people that have Predator buddies, like Léa and a couple others.

Quote :

No, it's because they became easier and cheaper to produce.

They only become cheaper once the market is saturated with them. A lot of people started buying computers, so the computer manufacturers had an incentive to make them at a lower cost so they could be mass-produced and sold in larger numbers. If the market is small, then complex electronics WILL be expensive. Hell, computers on Earth can easily cost more than a month or two's salaries for the average person. MOST people in Negav are not very rich. Most don't even live in Negav full-time, but travel back and forth in their exploration and/or trading.

Quote :

It's a fairly number, if 100 000 - 200 000 consumers is ok.

Not for selling electronics. You wouldn't nearly make back the manufacturing costs if you only sold 100,000-200,000 units of a modern computer. The company would go bankrupt and fold up. Not to mention whatever import taxes the Magiocrats may bring up against people who use the dimensional gate to bring in merchendise to sell.

Quote :

Free entertainment I have some doubt due to the censorship of the political faction. The program of Radio will most of the time propaganda for the vish or the Magi and independent radio stations will be under strict control, yeah free entertainment. Censor in radio and television is easier to apply than in network communication.

I was referring to cost, not censorship. Once you buy a radio, it is free to tune in to programming. Making radio programming cheaper and easier than making any kind of video-recording, and the costs of running the radio station could easily be handled with some minor advertising for local businesses, restaurants and so on.

As for censorship...I honestly don't think it would be THAT bad. Negav is hardly a dystopian dictatorship. It isn't like the Magiocrats are going around like Big Brother or something. Their only real enforcment groups are The Investigators and The Isolon Fist, and their only concerns are keeping rogue mages in line, and helping to protect Magiocrat assets. Would a particularly militant radio station maybe be persuaded to change its message or shut down? Maybe, but it isn't like they're censoring everything.

Radio used to be the most popular form of entertainment in the world, and it has a lot of possibilities. Music, news and talk radio of course, but there could also be radio plays, like back in the US in the 1950's. Stories acted out over the radio.

It isn't like the Magiocrats NEED a lot of propaganda anyway. They don't really care enough about most common folk to really interfere with them. They tend to rule from afar, behind the scenes and out of sight. While they may not be the best rulers, most residents of Negav aren't even going to think about trying to kick them out. The Isolon Eye has kept the city safe for decades, and the Dimensional Gate brings in a constant stream of offworld business and trade. As far as the average Negavian is concerned, they probably think the Magiocrats do a pretty decent job. Most probably feel the same about the Vishmitals. Having those big walls, and giant defense guns is likely a very reassuring sight to people both inside and outside of the city.

rcs619 wrote:

They only become cheaper once the market is saturated with them. A lot of people started buying computers, so the computer manufacturers had an incentive to make them at a lower cost so they could be mass-produced and sold in larger numbers. If the market is small, then complex electronics WILL be expensive.

Not really, it depend really on the method of production and if the product can be adapted in different line of products or not. The saturation or sell all the products is not really researched even if it's the ideal situation but to reach quickly to be profitable in a decent times. It's a matter of accounting.

rcs619 wrote:

Hell, computers on Earth can easily cost more than a month or two's salaries for the average person.

Not really, there are decent models of laptop computers who are affordable and except if the guy is trying to buy the latest model for playing games yeah it will be expansive. But a correct computer with basic professional functions is ok. And many companies are working to make the price lower by selling different lines of product which suited better the needs of the customer.

rcs619 wrote:

Not for selling electronics. You wouldn't nearly make back the manufacturing costs if you only sold 100,000-200,000 units of a modern computer. The company would go bankrupt and fold up. Not to mention whatever import taxes the Magiocrats may bring up against people who use the dimensional gate to bring in merchendise to sell.

The problem will be more the tax if the merchant buy in a off world where the price is very low what customer paid is the price+ the tax and the gross margin of the sellers.

Sean Okotami wrote:

First of all, do we even have a solid and concrete idea of what Negav's technology is other than what we THINK it is?

Yep, sure do. Below >

Karbo wrote:

Some very interesting thoughts here. I'm always amazed byt the grasp at science of some members of that community

Personnaly I see computers as a product of an already quite advanced society. I could imagine some in Negav indeed but I don't think it would be a widespread technology.. As I see it, Negav is an interesting mix between tech and magic indeed, but it's still more oriented toward magic and lower tech. The fact magiocrats are in power is not stranger to that.

I don't even think anyone read his post, given the line of conversation as it has developed.

Sean Okotami wrote:

Second, I could see it being used as bulletin boards and billboards for business, as well as a way to do status reports and what not, since a pen and paper would take aeons to finish.

Agreed.

Pendragon wrote:

It sounds like an internet would exist in Felarya. And really, I imagine they'd have an alternative to satellites or ground cables.

This IS an alternate world after all. In all politeness, stop telling others they're wrong for an ideas they submit.

Geez.

Can't say I necessarily agree with your synopsis on this one. Also, I can see why people would simply go for stating 'wrong' when debating devolves into 'because' arguments.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Even if you see the status is private but the manager is always a good friend with the political leaders and in overall.

Not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. That perhaps the Vish/Psi are being bribed? Possible, or more likely the Vish/Psi are the leaders controlling it through proxies who better understand and can handle the menial task of middle management.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

I don't think there will be an only source of equipment.

And I disagree. Why do you believe that? I have already given my reasons to the opposite.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Even if they are not serious they are still commercial activities. And many companies used social network to their communication with their customers.

Correlation, causation, and extension. Social networking developed because there was something to market to - Negav's network will not be that advanced nor will it be that widespread in my personal opinion. Also, what Karbo said.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

I doubt the authorities will let people get closed of their walls like that and due to the secret behind their creations.

Recommend closing your windows, because I feel a draft.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

I have serious doubt because they can use others methods.

Except Karbo has pretty much canonized the fact that the Psi do just that, and are quite good at it. At least in the hearts and minds of the constituents of Negav.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

There is more simple selling hardware or software with hidden tracers, key-loggers implemented and it's ok, and communication can be traced. And the size of the network make the communications easier to filter without affecting the global traffic.

Packet sniffers is a much easier way of going about this, as well as keynoting. What you describe is what amateurs do in order to spy on their nextdoor neighbor or their spouses.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

I see you referred to China but here the problem is because China even their strict policy of birth control, there are still unofficial birth mainly in the countryside which make the administrative control of the population difficult but in Negav the population is smaller an administrative control is easier.

Um, what? I was referencing those particular countries heavy-handed networking control methods. Other regulatory policies of China have nothing to do with this. At least debate it from the point of view that makes sense - that end users hack/VPN/tunnel around the country firewalls in order to access normal resources. I believe similar things would happen in Negav, but to a much lesser extent due to the lack of availability of hardware - not because it is difficult to acquire, but merely because the Negavian regulators make it difficult to use.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

The personal side will exist, it's just a matter of time.

Still inclined to disagree. Reasons noted all over the place.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

The Vish will keep an eye on this development but they will interfere maybe to keep the situation under control, infiltrated some forum but they won't destroy it because it will encourage people to use other means of communications. It's better to give an illusion of liberty than playing the card of repression.

This is contradicting your earlier statements to the contrary. And actually, no, you don't need to give people an illusion of liberty when you're not living in a democracy and you possess all the heavy weapons and are responsible for providing security for the city. No, the Vish have a good hand to play here in that poker game.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Anime-Junkie wrote:

If they do it's only because the existing infrastructure is there. In Negav, it won't be.

It can be implemented or imported.It doesn't mean it can't exist.

I concur with this. Infrastructure can be built and established, and some layers will no doubt be built off existing regulatory thinktanks.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Computers require power, but I highly doubt Negav has a powergrid. The rich probably have private generators but everybody else is either going to have a really cheap, small generator that can run off excess cooking oil or no power at all. They're not going to have the network connections. Wireless still requires wires somewhere, as well as the wireless access points themselves.

The energy issue is debatable in overall. Solutions can be created or developed or imported. And some already exist but are not ready for market, see solar batteries or wireless power.

Also agree. Plenty of ways to solve the dilemma of power, such as using devices that can run off of magitech or instituting a tesla grid vice an AC grid that we all know and are familiar with. We still love you, Nikolai Tesla.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Social networking sites are set up by companies for the purpose of social networking, they get their money from advertisements. There is not enough of an audience for that for it to be viable. There are not enough users for it to be viable.

It's just mean this services won't be delivered by this kind of companies but it can exist in other forms. And there are other possibilities of funding.

Not even sure what's going on here, to be honest.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Anime-Junkie wrote:

It's not an alternative world. Felarya is not Earth.

Felarya is not advanced world + swords & arrows.

Felarya is a primitive world + guns and bits of other higher tech.

Felarya is not going to have the internet,nnut Negav might.

Irregularities of development is not something new, you can face very advanced, fairly advanced and traditional or primitives societies. It was the case in our world before some world events standardized it.

Also, not quite sure what's going on here. See above, with Karbo's thoughts on it. Also, world events have hardly stabilized it, we simply take it for granted in the developed countries.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

I will repeat myself a computer network can be implemented into Negav, technical issue like energy or access can be resolved, the cities is not that big and cheap solution in other world which are working for bigger area can be imported and adapted but the problem I doubt Negav will reach the level of China/ North Korea in term of censorship which will look a bit exaggerated. I'm conscious this won't reach the Internet as we know in term of size and development but seeing the political factions using the policies of the great firewall is a bit too much. I know they will want to keep the control on it which is not a problem due to its current size but they can impose some restriction on some activities and monitor the sensitives ones but some activities are not really affected by that. Some known services can exist but they won't become impressive but still exist.

Agree, agree, agree, disagree. Control is a very important part of the Negavian lifestyle, and they enjoy it because of the Isolon Eye. The 'ruling' parties are by no means generous or kind to those that are in their way.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

rcs619 wrote:

Beyond simple bulletin boards, and email, there really isn't any reason for the average Negavian to want or care about an internet. Compters gained their massive popularity from an increasingly sedentary lifestyle, and have ONLY dropped so much in price because millions of people buy them all the time.

No, it's because they became easier and cheaper to produce.

A direct correlation to the demand and a few companies who saw business (ie monetary gain) opportunity and seized such before others could do so, creating the giants we know today.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

rcs619 wrote:

Negav is home to somewhere between 700,000 - 900,000 people...and most of those people either live in the poor district, or in the Pit, or are transitory adventurers or merchants who don't even live in Negav all the time.

It's a fairly number, if 100 000 - 200 000 consumers is ok.

Sort of agree. Realistically though, I still see it as being commerical, not private.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

rcs619 wrote:

There just is not enough of a consumer base to have any kind of complex electronics like that. You won't have television, you won't have movie production in Negav, you won't have most types of "modern" entertainment.Radios work because the technology is simple, programming is easy and cheap to make...and once people buy the radio, it works and gives them access to free entertainment. Movie theators, plays, and maybe sporting events work as well. Things where large numbers of people can be entertained for a relatively low admission price

Free entertainment I have some doubt due to the censorship of the political faction. The program of Radio will most of the time propaganda for the vish or the Magi and independent radio stations will be under strict control, yeah free entertainment. Censor in radio and television is easier to apply than in network communication.

Contradiction to earlier statements again here.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

rcs619 wrote:

There is just no reason for a big, complex internet in Negav...and it just doesn't fit in with the technology, infrastructure or culture that is already in place within the city.

They are flexible and adaptable.

Agree with both. Implementation then becomes the key - how much is too much?

To reiterate Aether, Karbo pretty much confirmed that they are computers in Negav, and from our speculations, they'd be used mostly for business rather than entertainment. However, outside that, what has been confirmed about Negav outside its cannons and the walls that seal the city in times of crisis?