problems with how humans are portrayed.

heh, then I guess my stories about a group of powerful adventurers who do sometimes encounter preds on their travels and have yet to lose a member due to being skilled enough to deal with them in manners that prevent their loss, but not skilled enough to avoid them entirely, is something not common? a sort of middle ground?

TryMeIke wrote:

heh, then I guess my stories about a group of powerful adventurers who do sometimes encounter preds on their travels and have yet to lose a member due to being skilled enough to deal with them in manners that prevent their loss, but not skilled enough to avoid them entirely, is something not common? a sort of middle ground?

Hmm... That kind of story isn't the kind I write. That's because I favor a different view of the setting. It seems to me that you prefer an action adventure type Felarya, with bad ass muthas with cool weapons succeeding against larger threats. Literally. That is a valid view. It can be difficult to follow canon with that perspective, and be realistic.
That being said. It is not a bad idea. It has merits. With strong characterization and a good focus on group dynamic and not on them taking down threat after threat. I like the concept.

I on the other hand see Felarya as a horror setting. The outside is bright and beautiful, and there seem to be many lures for the greedy, but Felarya is a death trap for humans. That's what it is. Even if people didn't try to go there, humans randomly fall into it. It's a trap. And in this trap, people die. Interesting stories can be made with this idea in mind. Stories that affect emotions, when characters you like to read about die. That is how I see it. The human element, but not of strength versus adversity. If I wrote your idea for the story, they would consider themselves skilled, having never lost a member on many other worlds. They decide to challenge Felarya, and within the first day lose a man. This introduces fear into the group, as well as into the reader. From there, it becomes a much more engaging narrative as they fight not just for pride and for riches, but also for their lives. That's just my idea though, and fundamentally changes the theme of your idea.

can't argue with that. still, it's not JUST a death trap, since not EVERYONE dies. people can and do profit from traveling to felarya. and I wanted to ask if you could look over and give your thoughts on some of the rumors I put in the rumor thread?

Pretty much like Eric pointed out, the big gun-totting guy can be done, but it's extremely difficult to pull out convincingly, which is why it's not recommended.

I was going more for the poison using, disabing pred with magic, like blinding and keeping them from moving, and wittling them down from there, people seem to think magic in adventuring groups is about blasting, not supporting others. a good mage will simply blind, paralyze and knock out a pred. all three of which will be temporary, due to being magic.

French snack wrote:

I do wonder what kind of stories you've been reading... Examples of prey bringing down preds immediately spring to mind in stories by Asuroth or Aethernavale, for example. (Not to mention timing2's description of tomthumbs using their wits to destroy a tribe of nekos that had been preying on them.) And to top it all, they're well-written, believable and interesting.

Woo, I got a mention! Thanks for that and the compliment heh.

I won't repeat the statements of before, but yes they pretty much sum it up pretty well in regards to stealth and how people try to deal with predators by not actually dealing with them. Your group actually sounds like it works similar to how mine has performed- granted there were two cases but the better written one of mine uses that method of disabling the pred. Also no mage was used, though it wasn't quite a flawless victory despite their escape- things don't always go as planned heh. To cut a long story short, it ultimately is about balance in having to deal with these encounters (and a lot of all Felaryan aspects really)- I spent a long time running through the scenario trying to make it at least decently compelling on both ends. You've got an interdimensional hub with a wealth of knowledge, technology and people: feel free to get creative with it but keeping it realistic to some degrees also adds quite a lot to it.

I agree entirely with Eric. Successful adventurers, for the most part, are those who are well prepared (with good knowledge of the jungle) and who do their utmost to avoid contact with predators. Of course, they should also be as prepared as possible for an accidental encounter, but fundamentally they're going to be steering clear of giant sapient beings.

I like how Silent_Eric defines Felarya as a horror setting. Some people out of the community who read my first two stories viewed as horror tales, where the monster "wins". Taking in account they were stories made for a contest Karbo held and where vore was mandatory... didn't know I created two horror stories.

Anyway, about how humans are portrayed, it depends on who writes the story and what he/she wants to do with it. You can use the human characters to either show how sensible decissions and actions can save your ass or how being blind to reality can end in something as nasty as getting killed. I like to mix them.

I don't believe it is that fair to think all humans are helpless people or idiots who deserve getting killed. If something offers humankind in many contexts is diversity, and I like to think that Felarya can offer a vast diversity of human behaviors, and also a lot of outcomes. Some will be fair, others won't, but it isn't like everything has to end in "human got eaten by a predator". There are many and many ways to end a story to just reduce it to "humans are assholes and for that a pred will swallow them whole", right?

It has been said before but Felarya is really all about the point of view the writer decide to use.

You could write two times the exact same story and make it either absolutely dark and hellish, or silly and cute, just by changing the tone and the point of view you use.
And there is not really one that is better than the other. It's a big part of what make the flavor of Felarya to me.

Now that I think about it, that is a nice angle to go by.

Felarya has a set of constants, but the writers can always give those constants different flavors. Horror or silly adventure, I personally enjoy both.

And tbh, if you feel that humans are the chewtoys of Felarya, I would blame those guys who bring in Dragonball Z characters and overpower everything, and this chewtoy aspect was an overreaction by some writers to put them in their place.

But yeah, alot of people here have stories with competent characters all around. I suggest reading some of them.

Pendragon wrote:

And tbh, if you feel that humans are the chewtoys of Felarya, I would blame those guys who bring in Dragonball Z characters and overpower everything, and this chewtoy aspect was an overreaction by some writers to put them in their place.

I know there were many people that couldn't think out of the DBZ-styled characters, but were there really people who overreacted towards this? Oh my... Well, anyway, I always thought that some people who overused the "humans are assholes" theme was because they were quite pesimistic.

But I prefer it when authors offer many different points of view in these matters. It's cool to see you can play with settings that are set apart from your usual thing. I think Felarya and what it has become have been a good chance for me to find new ways to tell a story, new views... and that also goes with the human nature in this world, with all the different behaviors and reactions to specified events.

Pendragon wrote:

But yeah, alot of people here have stories with competent characters all around. I suggest reading some of them.

I also recommend to have a look at what the whole community has to offer, better not get stuck with those that only use humans in their stories as cannon fodder... or just as food.

I don't think the humanoid races need necessarily to outright kill preds just to survive their attacks. If antimaterial shells are about as painful to preds as bee stings are to us, then that's still motivation enough for them to break pursuit. You wouldn't chase a hamburger through a swarm of angry bees, would you?

When you bear in mind the various scales of predators that we're talking about, the level of firepower has to make sense at all levels. Let's say a race of humans is armed with Kalashnikovs and RPG-7s. Against other humanoids that's a level of firepower we would call conventional. Against some of the larger creatures (kenshas, for instance) that would still be enough to cause lethalities, though the encounter would still be anything but one-sided. And against full predators weapons like these really would be hard pressed to actually kill. Maybe a rocket straight to the jugular would do it, but other than that you could only expect to stun her at best. Suddenly the chase becomes very interesting in that there is the small sliver of hope that the human could get off a very, very lucky shot and survive. If the human was completely helpless that would just be boring.

Mickilla wrote:

I don't think the humanoid races need necessarily to outright kill preds just to survive their attacks.

All that's nessecary for a group to do is to make sure that they're just too much trouble to be worth it.

Mickilla wrote:

If antimaterial shells are about as painful to preds as bee stings are to us

Far more painful than that. Modern Assault rifles are more akin to bee stings, if a bee could sting around 600 times in one minute.
It would be possible to kill a predator with a Heavy machine gun, but the event would be death-by-1000 cuts. Very inefficient, not to mention that the predator would have run away long before it got to that.

Mickilla wrote:

Maybe a rocket straight to the jugular would do it, but other than that you could only expect to stun her at best.

I think RPGs are a little more lethal than that. Seriously; Giants aren't made out of reinforced rolled tungsten.
The explosion from an RPG-29 can pierce around 3,700 mm into a temporary, wood and dirt fortification. We can assume that the earth used was pack down to make it more dense. Therefore, it would be more dense than flesh. If we call the logs akin to bone, then an RPG-29 can pierce around 3700mm or further into a predator's chest, assuming a direct hit. 3700mm is around 12 feet. a 12 foot hole is going to kill a giant predator, no questions asked.

However, we can not assume that all RPGs are as modern as the RPG-29. Something like the RPG-7 with a simpler single stage HEAT round is probably going to be more common. But it's still lethal. Said HEAT round can pierce about 500 to 600mm of rolled homogeneous armour. That's far, far tougher than flesh and bone. Against brick it pierces over 700mm. Again, considering flesh and bone is weaker, we can assume that it will pierce more. So while not as deadly as an RPG-29, the RPG-7 is going to be lethal.

Mickilla wrote:

If the human was completely helpless that would just be boring.

Agreed.

I'm not sure how people can think that humans are incompetent when they actually look at the numbers. Trymeike was right in that there are some problems with how humans are portrayed, but that's only in some stories.
In actuality, a well equipped, well led group with a pre-meditated path could make it through the jungle and back with minimal or no losses.

To be honest, I don't even think the RPG-7 would be common. you'd have to come from a militarized world like ours, and even then, the "ammo" isn't exactly small. You'll have less than 10 rounds with that thing, which basically means you'll have enough ammo to get you to negav if you get unlucky with what gate you end up warping into.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

To be honest, I don't even think the RPG-7 would be common. you'd have to come from a militarized world like ours, and even then, the "ammo" isn't exactly small. You'll have less than 10 rounds with that thing, which basically means you'll have enough ammo to get you to negav if you get unlucky with what gate you end up warping into.

Pretty much. The only groups that would have those kinds of weapons are offworld military groups, and the Isolon Fist (since they import from offworld).

Military-grade weapons are not exactly common or easy for random people to come by.

Mickilla wrote:

You wouldn't chase a hamburger through a swarm of angry bees, would you?

This is a very good point. Also, it made me chortle profusely.

Indeed. I think approved Mercenary groups may also have them RPGs. It'd be something they could stick on the resume, or whatever they use.

However, we must remember that while the RPG-7 requires a semi-modern manufacturing base, there are RPG analouges that could be made with Negav's current tech and magic level.
While possibly not as effective in raw power as something like the RPG-7 or the RPG-29, it would be tailored to Felarya, rather than an anti-tank weapon who's power is wasted on a predator.

And bear in mind that you wouldn't need very intricate weapons just to get by. Any race that has even the smallest manufacturing capacities could easily begin producing arms once they feel the need. I imagine that even the races that don't have the ability to produce their own arms could still buy them from the ones that do. Demand for such basic things as automatic rifles and rocket propelled grenades would be huge, once everyone realizes that these things are on the market. Who in the right mind would brave the jungles without a rifle slung on their shoulder?

And even smaller, more rustic villages may even turn to crafting firearms by hand. Even if they can't mass produce in a factory they can still make for themselves individual units at a time at the local blacksmith. The way I see it, hand-made bolt-action rifles would be the most common outside of the major settlement. They may be very finely crafted and given rustic charm, but the pragmatists would be quick to ditch these to take foreign automatics in their place. When the opportunity comes along that is.

Okay, a few points on weapons...

Penetration vs. damage.
Giant predators aren't tanks... If you don't just want to drive it away but kill it, you have to do more than penetrate, you have to do internal damage and LOTS of it.

I keep hearing about HEAT warheads being the best thing to use against a giant pred, but I have my doubts.
A HEAT warhead uses a jet of superheated metal (usually copper) to make a hole about the size of your thumb in armor... That's a fraction of a milimeter to a pred, even if it does go really deep it would sting like a bitch but it would NOT be a fatal wound. Casualties inside tanks hit by HEAT warheads usually result from being hit by the molten slag of their own armor or by secondary explosions caused by ammo in the tank.
Even newer, more powerful anti-tank warheads would need to strike either the head or another vital area to kill a pred outright, even the RPG-29 would do relatively little internal damage and would need to be carefully aimed.
Think stabbing someone with a thick 8 inch white-hot needle.
H.E. or thermobaric warheads designed to take out large groups of infantry would destroy a large amount of flesh, damage internal organs and rupture blood vessels, which is what you want to do.
Newer multi-staged warheads designed for taking out infantry in lightly fortified positions or other thin-skinned targets would be preferable but MUCH more difficult to acquire or produce. They are designed to punch through walls and armor THEN detonate a large HE warhead inside the target, this would probably take out a pred in one shot depending on where it hit.

Quote :

Penetration vs. damage.
Giant predators aren't tanks... If you don't just want to drive it away but kill it, you have to do more than penetrate, you have to do internal damage and LOTS of it

Pretty much. Predators, even with their size, are still "soft" targets. Their skin is immune to pistol rounds, sure, but assault rifles can sting, and larger belt-fed guns can cause a good deal of pain. You don't necissarily need huge penetration (unless you plan to shoot through bone) so much as you need decent penetration with a lot of damage. This is why rockets are so good, especially those with shaped charges to focus the damage. You don't want to punch a tiny hole, you want to blow out a chunk and damage some internal stuff.

Although, I still maintain that driving off is the superior option 90% of the time, so you don't have to deal with a 100+ ton corpse.

Quote :

I keep hearing about HEAT warheads being the best thing to use against a giant pred, but I have my doubts.

Im pretty sure most people bring up HEAT rounds because of transformers. Those were giant robots though, which is a completely different kettle of fish.

Quote :

Even newer, more powerful anti-tank warheads would need to strike either the head or another vital area to kill a pred outright, even the RPG-29 would do relatively little internal damage and would need to be carefully aimed.

Nah, anti-tank rockets all pack more than enough explosives to kill a pred. Shaped charges are vital, since you want to focus that explosion into the pred. Any hit from the chest up with a rocket is going to be lethal, or cause severe maiming.

To be fair, most of the time we are trying to apply weapons to a role they were never deisgned for. It wouldn't suprise me if the Isolon Fist modified, or even imported custom designed warheads and weapons from offworld. Rockets specifically designed to take out giant "soft" targets, for example.

Quote :

H.E. or thermobaric warheads designed to take out large groups of infantry would destroy a large amount of flesh, damage internal organs and rupture blood vessels, which is what you want to do

That is a bit more difficult to determine. Keep in mind, those are designed to take out large groups of human-sized targets through the use of pressure waves. How those same pressure waves would affect scaled up flesh, bone, blood and connective tissue is unknown. There's also the fact that thermobaric weapons are hardly controlled. A thermobaric weapon large enough to be instantly lethal to a predator would be a potentially large hazard for the soldiers deploying it. I'd prefer shaped-charge explosives, since those can't backfire on the people who launched them.

Quote :

Newer multi-staged warheads designed for taking out infantry in lightly fortified positions or other thin-skinned targets would be preferable but MUCH more difficult to acquire or produce. They are designed to punch through walls and armor THEN detonate a large HE warhead inside the target, this would probably take out a pred in one shot depending on where it hit.

Dimensional gate + a limitless amount of rare minerals and resources + access to dozens of worlds = You get whatever you want/need

...and yep, They probably would work just fine. Keep in mind, you don't necissarily need a pure, complete weapon. The Magiocrats and Isolon Fist have their own armorers. They could modify offworld weapons to better suit their needs, either with other offworld technology, their own technology, or the use of magi-tech. Who's to say you couldn't take something as simple as a RPG, and drastically alter its performance through the addition of magic and/or magi-tech to it? Lots of ways to go, really.

also

Quote :

Think stabbing someone with a thick 8 inch white-hot needle.

That is pretty lethal, it just takes lots of accuracy.

Its like with rapiers. They were designed to stab through soft spots in plate armor. They're useless against the armor itself, but if you hit in the right spot, you can kill the guy wearing the armor in a single blow.

I have brought up penetration versus lethality many times.

Now, it depends on the scale of the weapon. If we're talking bigger weapons and advanced tech... I'd say think outside the box. Direct energy weapons could work wonders if you can power them. Maybe a Tesla-style teleforce weapon. You'd need to miniaturize most of the apparati, but with advanced tech (magitech?), this is a possibility.

In any case, I'd prefer HEP/HESH rounds over HEAT against giant preds. I think they'd effectively be the same as a concussive grenade strapped to a human's chest: your heart and lungs would be jelly.

@ zion:
I discussed HESH rounds with Cauldronborn once. Apparently they wouldn't be effective against soft targets like giant predators due to not having a hard surface to squash against.

TheArchvile wrote:

Okay, a few points on weapons...

Penetration vs. damage.
Giant predators aren't tanks... If you don't just want to drive it away but kill it, you have to do more than penetrate, you have to do internal damage and LOTS of it.

I keep hearing about HEAT warheads being the best thing to use against a giant pred, but I have my doubts.
A HEAT warhead uses a jet of superheated metal (usually copper) to make a hole about the size of your thumb in armor... That's a fraction of a milimeter to a pred, even if it does go really deep it would sting like a bitch but it would NOT be a fatal wound. Casualties inside tanks hit by HEAT warheads usually result from being hit by the molten slag of their own armor or by secondary explosions caused by ammo in the tank.
Even newer, more powerful anti-tank warheads would need to strike either the head or another vital area to kill a pred outright, even the RPG-29 would do relatively little internal damage and would need to be carefully aimed.
Think stabbing someone with a thick 8 inch white-hot needle.

I agree, heat rounds aren't going to be the most effective, but they're a standard of today.

I think they would be more effective than you think. It's not just a white hot needle, it's molten metal. It's going to burn down into the flesh too. It'll stay there and cause a wound that won't heal due to the metal and the cauterization. Cliff is right, if you hit a predator with one in a vita spot, you can will kill them.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

@ zion:
I discussed HESH rounds with Cauldronborn once. Apparently they wouldn't be effective against soft targets like giant predators due to not having a hard surface to squash against.

What? The target doesn't need to be so hard that it squashes entirely. If you get any deformation of the explosive, you'd have a plastic explosive in contact with the skin when it goes off. That will produce enough concussive shock to drop a predator. You don't need it to work at 100% capacity.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Cliff is right, if you hit a predator with one in a vita spot, you can will kill them.

In a vital spot.

Well the regeneration is really powerful in Felarya, if a giant pred is hit with a heat (sabot?) round, the entrance wound could in fact be too small. IE - congrats you've penetrated them, but the wound entrance compared to their body size is so small that they'll just heal faster than bleed internally.

Also, isn't this thread about how humans are portrayed, not how effective weapons are against preds? XD

I think your giving the healing factor too much credit. Sure its powerful, at least compared to natural, unaided healing factors, but its not that powerful.

And if the weapon does as it is said to and is superheated, then the wound would indeed be cauterized, which would prevent any healing from happening.