Isolon Fist: Take 2

Alrighty, I decided to try and take another shot at this. There are things I felt I could have worded better, new ideas I've come up with since then, and let's face it, the last Isolon Fist thread I made kind of got tainted by the drama that was going on around the same time. So anyways, new thread, fresh start.



The Isolon Fist

Role and Origins:

The Isolon Fist is the personal fighting force of the Ps'isol Magiocrat Council. Currently headed by Commander Kamlon, the Fist is composed of a number of highly trained battlemages, supported by more conventionally armed soldiers and represents the full offensive might of the Council. The Isolon Fist's main role is to protect key Magiocrat intrests, such as the ascarlin mines to the west, and even the Isolon Eye itself.

The initial concepts for the Isolon Fist began to develop shortly after the Council's rise to power during the current Negav's chaotic first years. Following the fall of King Micolon, most of the Magiocrats' attention was on getting the severely damaged city under control again. This included crushing remaining pockets of Micolon loyalists who still refused to accept Negav's new government, as well as regulating the increasingly numerous, and increasingly organized Vishmital immigrants. The various Negav internal security forces did this job well enough, but when the Magiocrats looked at issues occuring outside of the city, things were not quite as under control.

Bandits and raiders became an almost constant annoyance beyond the walls, their courage bolstered by the protection of the Isolon Eye, and the Magiocrats' lack of a force capable of opposing them outright. Another threat came in the form of opportunistic predators who figured out that they could stalk near the northern border of the Isolon Eye's field, picking off travellers, bandits and other traffic going to and from Negav with neigh impunity.

The predator problems along the nothern border were made embarassingly apparent when a trio of nagas stalked the northern edge of the barrier for weeks, eating dozens of humans, nekos and inu. These three predators also nearly caused the Nekomuran Isolon Eye copy to run out, as getting someone to Nekomura to re-charge the device had proved nearly impossible with them around. Eventually, the two of the nagas were killed and the other driven off, but the damage to the Magiocrats' reputation and public perception had already been done. It was obvious that something needed to be done to keep this kind of incident from occuring again.

It was at this point that the early plans for the Isolon Fist were laid out. Plans for a group composed of heavily armed soldiers, and extremely powerful, well-trained battlemages. They would not only act as the Magiocrats' private army, but work to secure important assets, and help create a buffer around Negav's borders, so that no predators could run amok along them for weeks with impunity.

The modern Isolon Fist:

In the years since its creation, the Isolon Fist has served with distinction and created a fearsome reputation for itself. While the Fist is still called out to the northern border to deal with problem predators, the security of the ascarlin mines to the west has become one of their main roles. The shipments of rare minerals and ascarlin can be worth an unfathomable amount of money, and must follow a set route between Negav and the mines in order to keep within the protection of the small Isolon Eye clones that have been set up to form a path. This has made them a prime target for some of the more brazen, and well-armed bandit groups.

One particularly dramatic example occured with a group of offworld raiders, lead by Csion the Excessively Angry, arrived in Felarya from the world Atriedes V. They managed to overwhelm one of the ascarlin shipments and attempted to make off with it through a crude, one-way dimensional portal they had set-up in the nearby forest. Luckily, an Isolon Fist jetbike scout managed to disable their gate with a well-placed rocket, giving three full squads the time to catch up with the raiders and wipe them out, along with their notoriously ill-tempered leader.

While no other incursion of this scale has happened since, several smaller ones have. The technology required to create dimensional portals seems to be common enough within the universe to where quite a few mercenary groups, terrorist cells, crime-lords and war-bosses have been able to reverse-engineer the technology for themselves. Negav, and its riches, are not exactly unknown either, which continues to make its rare and expensive minerals attractive targets of opportunity.



The Northern border:

This region has been notoriously dangerous ever since the Negav's founding. Thanks to the Dryad network being able to spread around information, it has long-since become common knowledge that some kind of magical field protects a massive human city south of the Tolmeshal Forest. Many predators have, over the years, tried to move into the area to pick off some of the human-sized traffic that moves in and out of the city.

THe Magiocrats decided that keeping this region as secure as possible was of vital importance to the safety of Negav, and of their rule. Predators could not be allowed to just pile up outside of the Eye's range, and move around without any danger to themselves. Also, many Negavian businesses such as restaurants, shops, taverns and inns make nearly all of their money off of offworld adventurers. Should it ever get to the point where these adventurers cannot even leave the city, then the number of people coming to Negav from offworld could decrease, which would ripple through the Negavian economy.

There were also political implications to consider as well. The Magiocrats worried that they would be percieved as weak, and ineffectual should they be unable to secure an area that is so close to the city.

While the predator interdiction operations on the northern border are much less common than they used to be, and are really a secondary role compared to protecting shipments to and from the mine, they are generally the aspect of the Isolon Fist that gets talked about the most. Battle reports released by the Fist's public-relations division quickly make their rounds throughout the three districts, and tend to become hot topics of discussion for days to come. The Fist's ability to drive off dangerous predators has also had the effect of empowering the Negavian people, and to create the confident, independant attitude that so many Negavians share. To the people of Felarya's largest known human city, it is them vs the world, and they have the power to win.

Isolon Fist Organization:

The Isolon Fist typically deploys its members in groups of ten regular members, and one or more specialists. These groups consist of:

- ( 2 ) Battlemages, usually paired together because their powers work well in tandem.

- ( 8 ) Conventionally armed soldiers. One of these will hold the rank of captain, and have second-highest authority under the two battlemages. Should both of the battlemages die or get incapacitated, the captain will assume command of the squad for the duration of the operation.

- Specialist units: Squads can opt to add a specialist to their squad, depending on preferrence or the mission at hand. Currently, jarpy or jetbike scouts are the most commonly deployed types of specialists, thanks to their high mobility and the massive increase to squad survivability that aerial scouts give.

Isolon Fist weaponry:

The Isolon Fist has access to a wide assortment of weaponry depending on the mission and whether or not they are fighting humans, human-sized people, or some of the giant, dangerous creatures that prowl the Felaryan wilderness. The soldiers of the Isolon Fist use everything from anti-personnel weapons such as assault rifles and grenades, to weapons designed to bring down giant creatures, like belt-fed light machineguns (not usually lethal, but cause excessive pain), rockets (potentially one-hit kills), grenade launchers and many other types of heavy weaponry.

Most of these weapons are either imported from offworld, or have been reverse-engineered from offworld weapons. Most Isolon Fist weapons also usually have enchantments of them, allowing for increased performance, as well as many other special effects. The enchanted rockets favored by the Isolon Fist are especially dangerous, due to the secondary magical charge that detonates following the initial blast, massively increasing the rocket's damage potential.

Isolon Fist uniforms:

The Isolon Fist has two types of uniforms, depending on the wearer's role.

- Conventional soldiers: The conventional soldiers of the Isolon Fist are not all that dissimilar from what you would expect a soldier to look like. Their clothes typically contain green, black, brown, and other forest colors. Their clothes typically have lots of pockets, and they carry all sorts of gear and weapons on them when heading off on a mission. These soldiers also tend to be equipped with a wide variety of amulets, enchanted items and charms, helping to increase their resistance to curses and illusions, as well as givng the otherwise non-magical soldiers access to a wide variety of beneficial magical effects. (There would probably be some other fantasy-ish traits to them. Something like Lord of the Rings meets Modern Warfare, I think)

- Battlemages: The uniform of a battlemage is very recognizable by design. Isolon Fist battlemages wear pure, white, hooded cloaks. There are usually markings on the shoulders, as well as along the cloak's borders. The other key element to their uniform is what sits on their chest. On the chest of each cloak, is a shield-shaped piece of metal, roughly the size of a human's hand. On it, various markings and symbols are engraved, but the most dominant feature is the engraved image of an open, glaring eye.

Because of the battlemage's high status, and the fact that there are relatively few of them compared to other soldiers, each mage also gets a high degree of leeway with personal cunstomization. They can take their cloaks and gear to the official Isolon Fist tailors and armorers, and have all sorts of modifications made. Because of this, no two battlemages' outfits will look exactly alike, the only shared traits between them will be that they both wear white, and will both have that distinctive piece of metal somewhere on their uniform.

Most battlemages have two outfits at any given time. One uses a completely unmodified cloak, usually worn for formal events and ceremonies. The other outfit will be the personally modofied cloak and gear, to be worn out on missions.

The clothes worn beneath the cloak are entirely up to the mage's personal preferrence. They tend to be darker, more practical types of clothing.

Recruitment:

Battlemages are recruited straight out of the Isolon University of Magic. Students who have shown the most magical potential, especially in the realm of more destructive, combat-oriented magic, will be offered the change to try out for The Fist. Should they pass the extensive physical, mental and magical tests, they will become "black-cloaks" (so called because of the pitch-black cloaks they are given to wear). During their time as black-cloaks, the recruits will undergo further training and conditioning as the full force of their magical abilities are slowly brought out, and the civillian students are molded into elite soldiers and commanders of men. When the recruits have completed their training, they are finally officially inducted into the order of battlemages in a secretive, and exclusive ceremony. The black-cloaks are called up and addressed by name by the current command of The Fist. The magically reactive material in their cloaks is induced to change from black, to the pure white of a battlemage's cloak, and then the recruit is given the metal badge that fully cements his or her place as a true battlemage.

In the weeks following the ceremony, the new battlemages will spend many hours within the Trial Room of the Isolon University of Magic as they work to find the partner battlemage that will be best for them.

The more conventional soldiers of The Fist come from all over. They can be Negavian-born, or offworlders. Militia men, mercenaries, or even police officers. The only requirement to be a soldier within the Isolon Fist is extreme physical prowess, and the courage to face down everything from bandits to giant, man-eating monsters. Some would argue that the tests, trials and conditioning required to be a soldier in The Fist are even more gruelling than what the battlemages have to go through. Even after making it into the Isolon Fist, more tests await. These range from physical trials, to mental conditioning and classes on Felarya's dangerous flora and fauna, to weapons training meant to familiarize the new soldiers with the enchanted weapons they will be wielding.

Jetbike riders and harpy scouts will recieve additional training, due to their specialized and vitally important position and the unique pieces of equipment they will be expected to use.

Anti-predator Battle doctrine:

On a standard border-clearing mission, the ideal solution is to actually NOT kill the target predator. A dead predator is a 100+ ton corpse that needs to be dealt with. It has to be hauled off to a dumping site, and buried or burned. Overall, it is extremely unpleasent and a hassle for all involved.

Most of the time, the Isolon Fist prefers to drive off a predator, rather than kill it. They will rough it up, wound it, and so on, and when it knows it is beaten and can't win...they let it go, with the warning to never return. This practice has several good aspects to it:

- No giant corpses to deal with
- Most predators have friends. They will go to their friends, show them their wounds, and tell them horror stories of freakishly strong humans. This will, in turn, convince some other predators that coming anywhere close to Negav is a bad idea.
- Thanks to the Dryad network, these horror stories about the "white-cloaks" made it into even the deeper areas of the wilderness, although some predators are still skeptical about whether they are true or not.

Of course, just like some humans, some predators will refuse to listen to reason or be too stubborn to give up, and will have to be killed to remove their threat from the near-Negav area.

Keeping the stress down:

Because of the stresses involved in their jobs, the Isolon Fist works on a rotation system. A unit will go "on rotation" for a certain amount of time, where they can be assigned to a guard detail, or called out on a mission whenever a problem comes up. When their rotation is up, they will go "off rotation" and get a certain number of days off, to relax, unwind, and prepare themselves for their next time on rotation.

Demi-humans in the Isolon Fist

The Isolon Fist is somewhat unique in a way, thanks to its relative acceptance of demi-humans within its ranks. This demi-human integration initiative was spearheaded by a small group within the Magiocrat Council, made up of former Isolon Fist members. These younger, more radical, Magiocrats saw the potential benefits that added demi-humans to the Fist's ranks could bring, and pushed hard to make it happen. Of course, most of the older, more traditional council members were not fond of this, but it became hard to argue with the fact that demi-humans did possess some useful, and in cases superior skills and senses compared to humans, or even elves.

Harpies, inu and nekos are the most commonly recruited demi-human varieties, thanks to their enhanced senses and skill as guides and scouts. Some would say that the selection process is even harder for them than it is for the human recruits, partly due to some existing bias and partly due to the importance of their role. As scouts and guides, the lives of whole squads could hinge on their senses and intuition. Harpies also requires special language training, to learn how to speak in a more understandable, less profanity-ridden manner, and make conversing with non-harpies easier for all involved.

A bit more variety can be seen in the battlemages, with one Isolon Fist squad even having a dridder battlemage within it. Magical skill is magical skill, and shunning a potential battlemage because of species is considered a waste of a valuable resource. Because of this, recruiters from the Isolon University of Magic will occaisionally make trips to the Motamo Docks to test the magical potential of its residents. The Investigators also try to keep on the lookout for any new, powerful mages to be born or show up in the Docks, and asess their potential as recruits for the university.

Despite its more integrated nature, bias against demi-humans does still exist within the Fist, primarily from the native-born Negavians within its ranks. While openly insulting, or harrassing other members of the Fist is officially frowned upon, some officers will turn a blind eye to smaller, less public incidents. Even with the bias though, most of the demi-human members of the Fist are proud to be there. They feel like they are getting to serve their city, or represent their people in a way most of their kind never will, and most will agree that the friendships and comrades they make within the Fist generally tends to outweigh a lot of the negativity they sometimes are forced to endure.

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Alrighty, done. I tried to expand more on my initial ideas, and word them in a clearer, more sensible way. Also tried to add in some extra setting fluff too. The minature Eye clones forming a route between negav and the mines are not canon, but they are an idea I have proposed in the past and that I believe makes sense. The black-cloaks idea was Anime-Junkie's, I just slightly modified it.

Anyway, here's hoping this attempt goes better than the last =D

rcs619 wrote:

Alrighty, I decided to try and take another shot at this. There are things I felt I could have worded better, new ideas I've come up with since then, and let's face it, the last Isolon Fist thread I made kind of got tainted by the drama that was going on around the same time. So anyways, new thread, fresh start.

Understood.
Setting feedback to ON.

rcs619 wrote:

Role and Origins:

So far everything seems just peachy, except, well- the creation of the Fist just doesn't seem to be the logical conclussion of those premises. I might understand fighting nagas with heavy weapons and magic, but for most other pursuits, you forgot to mention that those teams are supposed to act from ambush and should be trained with that in mind. There's all sorts of nasty in the universe, some of which come in great numbers and all of which are best dealt with by making sure they don't get the first strike.

rcs619 wrote:

The modern Isolon Fist:

Alright, I can agree with this. Those minerals are all in the same place and there's all sorts of nasties who want at them- better not skimp on firepower. However, firepower isn't always the answer. You might want to add other options other than eyes on the sky- they can be foiled.

rcs619 wrote:

Isolon Fist Organization:
Isolon Fist weaponry:

Eight heavies aren't always the answer to everything, you know. Consider Isolon Fist teams that aren't built for killing predators, if you really want to shift their main focus a bit.

rcs619 wrote:

Anti-predator Battle doctrine:

Sigh... okay, but I'd rather the predators figured out on their own that discretion is the better part of valor as often as possible. It comes off as overpowered when you don't just beat someone, but also do it so easily that you can afford to be merciful afterwards despite the fact they were trying to kill you. It's one thing to fight for your life, which is part of the theme in Felarya, it's another to just dominate.


That's what I've got, Cliff. Here's to hoping it is of some help.

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Eight heavies aren't always the answer to everything, you know. Consider Isolon Fist teams that aren't built for killing predators, if you really want to shift their main focus a bit.

Yeah, that part needs to be changed a bit more instead of just getting moved over from the old post.

They would have access to all sorts of weapons, depending on the mission. In the story I wrote about my interpretation of The Fist, they carried assault rifles until the pred was spotted and they got close. Then they swapped them out out for the heavy weapons.

EDIT: I changed up that part to make it clear they don't just use heavy weapons

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Sigh... okay, but I'd rather the predators figured out on their own that discretion is the better part of valor as often as possible. It comes off as overpowered when you don't just beat someone, but also do it so easily that you can afford to be merciful afterwards despite the fact they were trying to kill you. It's one thing to fight for your life, which is part of the theme in Felarya, it's another to just dominate.

They have heavy weapons and aerial superiority. Nothing is ever certain, but the Isolon Fist should have the overwhelming advantage in most cases.

It isn't so much about being merciful as it is sending a message. A dead predator can't do that, and is a hassle for everyone to deal with. To be fair, I never intended taking down a pred to be super-easy. There's going to be an innate danger to it. The Isolon Fist are going to be fighting for their lives when they engage a pred... They just make sure to stack as many odds in their favor beforehand by having good scouting, and by choosing the battlefield and time of engagement.

Csion the Excessively Angry heh.

Well I think there is many interesting things here ^^ but I'm still not for the fist engaging the predators *outside* of the eye's range. To me it's a very dangerous job that would cause numerous casualties among the first's ranks for little results.
And I don't think the magiocrat's authority would suffer as a result, as they provide the eye in the first place. It's not like they are running for elections and must do PR things to look good... they essentially run a locked autocratic regime that is largely unchallenged and endured by Negav's inhabitants as long as they are safe in their walls and can sleep ok at night. Actually having dusk nymphs sneaking in and eating a couple people before leaving, that would be infinitely more damaging and worrying for the magiocrats I think.

Moreover Negav is not a prison. There is a dimensional gate just nearby and people can come and go as they please. And I disagree with that image of the city somehow circled by a wall of monsters : the eye's influence very a great deal so that would be a gradual thing. The more you go far from it, the more dangerous it becomes.
If Negav wants to really expand it's safe zone around it would be more sensible to do so by raising smaller eyes around the city. A solution that could be well adopted actually.

Having said that I agree it should be mentioned the fist are securing the ascarlin mines. That would definitely be one of their main task. And that part about their uniform is neat ^^
I like what you did with the recruitment too : the different phases and their training an test to find a partner. This makes sense and that's a good development that works well I think. Although I'm not really sure training harpy scouts would be a very widespread thing.
nice job on this ^^

(just a thing but king micolon has been replaced by King Tonho )

Stabs wrote:

Understood.
Setting feedback to ON.

chaotic neutral ? XP

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Well I think there is many interesting things here ^^ but I'm still not for the fist engaging the predators *outside* of the eye's range. To me it's a very dangerous job that would cause numerous casualties among the first's ranks for little results.

To be fair, it isn't like they are going off into the Tolmeshol forest. They aren't straying that far away from the Eye, and they only even do that when they have aerial scouts up and about. Its literally impossible for any large dangerous creature to sneak up on them with scouts in the air. It also lets them pick the right moment to attack (like when the pred stops to rest or take a nap).

Honestly, I would imagine fighting human-sized enemies would be FAR more dangerous than fighting preds. They have guns, which can kill a human much easier than a pred could. Plus, they are smaller and able to use the terrain as well. They aren't a big, easy to spot target from the air like a giant naga or something.

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And I don't think the magiocrat's authority would suffer as a result, as they provide the eye in the first place. It's not like they are running for elections and must do PR things to look good... they essentially run a locked autocratic regime that is largely unchallenged and endured by Negav's inhabitants as long as they are safe in their walls and can sleep ok at night. Actually having dusk nymphs sneaking in and eating a couple people before leaving, that would be infinitely more damaging and worrying for the magiocrats I think.

Keep in mind though. Their government was forged out of open rebellion and a hostile overthrow of the Micolon regime. In all likelihood, the populous of Negav did most of the work. I think the Magiocrats would be extremely aware how powerful the people of a city can be if they are upset. The memories of how badly Micolon screwed up would still be around, and the Magiocrats are going to want to keep people happy. The Eye is great, but if the people of Negav really wanted to overthrow them, all the Investigators and Isolon Fist they have wouldn't be able to do anything to stop it, especially if the Vishmitals back up the rebels (which, lets face it, they would).

I tried to reduce the scale of their predator fighting from the first draft. I still think it would be necissary, but honestly I doubt it would be all that common in modern times. Its not like the jungle is crawling with giant preds every few feet, and I imagine there are enough horror stories about Negav and the Isolon Fist to keep most of them away. Only the ignorant, brave or the foolish preds would venture close enough to be an issue. Also, the Fist doesn't necissarily have to go out and beat up every pred that comes close. The main concern would be preds that hang around for excessive periods of time, and/or have the potential to disrupt travel routes between Negav and Nekomura (especially when it comes time to collect the Nekomuran tribute to keep the Eye going). (bolded for importance. Not yelling ^^ )

Like I mentioned in the article, it has slipped to a secondary role with the rise of the mines and the increased risk of bandit attacks on the shipments.

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Having said that I agree it should be mentioned the fist are securing the ascarlin mines. That would definitely be one of their main task. And that part about their uniform is neat ^^

Glad you liked that. I just got to thinking "The Delurans, Miritans, and probably a ton of other worlds have dimensional gate technology. What's stopping criminals, terrorist cells and the like from getting a hold of it, or reverse engineering it?" They would be able to enter Felarya outside of Negav, harass the shipments and if need be, retreat back through their own gates.

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I like what you did with the recruitment too : the different phases and their training an test to find a partner. This makes sense and that's a good development that works well I think.

Yeah, I figured there would be a very lengthy and difficult selection process. A member of the Isolon Fist needs to be prepared to fight everything from other humans, to giant monsters. As for the test to find a partner, that came from you. The time in the trial room was already mentioned in the wiki. I just incorporated that, and built up more around it.

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Although I'm not really sure training harpy scouts would be a very widespread thing.

Well, yeah. I figured it would be a somewhat new development, spearheaded by some of the younger, more radical members of the council. Harpies would be less expensive to train, equip and maintain than a jetbike. Just give them a set of enchanted goggles and you have a very powerful asset at your disposal. I may add a section about demi-humans in the Fist, just to convey my thoughts on that too.

EDIT: Added a section with my ideas on demi-humans within the Fist

Anyway, glad you like most of it ^^ I know the pred fighting thing is still in there, because I do think it would be necissary on occaision, but I really have tried to downplay its importance and how often it actually occurs.

Seems fair by this point. Most predators had better things to do than try to see how many days could they last while living off armed and armored twinkies, after all; if anyone was attracted by the possibility of eating as many humans as they could it'd be Crisis. Since she's not there, we can imagine the amount of better things to do that other predators have. Also, Negav is known to have these bigass guns all over the walls. Predators could do better than heading into unknown ground for the promise of twinkies.

I believe you two have already reached a compromise. Cliff has stated the Isolon Fist members will be fighting for their lives preparation and all, so they might very well take heavy losses. If it's a named pred and unnamed soldiers, you can bet they'll be taking heavy losses; sometimes the Fist might win without any compromise, but we don't need one story of each to know both possibilities exist. If we do, let's just hit Prinny-Dood with a request.

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Then again, if you're going to deal with gate-using bandits, Cliff, there's not a second to spare. Have you considered dimensional deployment? Like what Lesona or Voidfingers can do, only on a grander scale, like 10-20 miles. It's primary canon, after all, that teleporting is an option. If that isn't a consistent option, a gate network could shave off some time as well: portals are canon. If they aren't an option either, consider using some sort of flying mode of conveyance to bring ten people over, like a flying carpet or stuff. If that isn't an option either, consider using a tunnel network where going at 360 km/h with 10 people in your car is an option because traffic equals zero.

If we're dealing with gate-using bandits here, time is exactly what you do not have. The moment they secure the cargo, you've run out of time unless you want to pursue into another world. Also, I'd say there's ways to get around gunfire being too deadly. I'm not saying make yourself bulletproof; though I consider that an option, I'm not sure if there's anyone else who would consider it an option unless we had went through all the other alternatives first.

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Actually I'm against smaller eyes- On the rumors section, it's said that the ascarlin mines couldn't be protected by a replica of the eye. It's just a rumor, so I'll take it with a grain of salt and just accept more replicas beyond the Nekomura one are possible, but let's not start tossing those around or they'll go out of season.

Finally, I am not a rogue modron. Statement was meant to I) Illustrate effort in providing useable feedback. B) Tension relief. C) Stalling. Over and out. XP

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I believe you two have already reached a compromise. Cliff has stated the Isolon Fist members will be fighting for their lives preparation and all, so they might very well take heavy losses. If it's a named pred and unnamed soldiers, you can bet they'll be taking heavy losses; sometimes the Fist might win without any compromise, but we don't need one story of each to know both possibilities exist. If we do, let's just hit Prinny-Dood with a request.

All I was saying was that the Fist heavily stacks the odds in their own favor before engaging (just like any elite military group does). They have aerial surveillance, they know where the pred is at all times, and they can choose when to engage it. Sure, there will be losses here and there, since no plan ever survives contact with the enemy, but I think the Fist would do a little better than Karbo gives them credit for.

Either way, predator interdictions are an uncommon thing, like I said above. Only the ignorant, bold or stupid would really actually try it these days. Negav probably does have a pretty mean reputation. Stabs is probably right too, if it were an easy meal, Crisis would have been all over that years ago =P

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Then again, if you're going to deal with gate-using bandits, Cliff, there's not a second to spare. Have you considered dimensional deployment? Like what Lesona or Voidfingers can do, only on a grander scale, like 10-20 miles. It's primary canon, after all, that teleporting is an option. If that isn't a consistent option, a gate network could shave off some time as well: portals are canon

Ehh, all that isn't even really necissary. The valuable stuff travels across a known route. I'd imagine there are Isolon Fist squads stationed along the route on a near-permanent basis (maybe a small outpost built around each of the three isolon eye clones?). If someone attacks a convoy, the closest squad would move to defend. Now, there IS the possibility that it could be a very large, organized incursion, and a single squad isn't enough.

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If they aren't an option either, consider using some sort of flying mode of conveyance to bring ten people over

That actually exists. Its a larger transport vehicle based on the same principle as the jetbikes. AJ hasn't written up a thing on them, but he has mentioned them.

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If we're dealing with gate-using bandits here, time is exactly what you do not have. The moment they secure the cargo, you've run out of time unless you want to pursue into another world

The shipments likely have some armed escorts. Its not like they can just run up and grab it. They then would have to get it back to their own gate to get it home. That's the vulnerable part for them, and if you can damage it (via jetbike rocket, for example) you strand them. Even a jetbike or two doing strafing runs could hold up their retreat immensely, giving time for the battlemages and their squad to arrive and mop up.

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ctually I'm against smaller eyes- On the rumors section, it's said that the ascarlin mines couldn't be protected by a replica of the eye.

That can still happen, actually. Maybe the field can't pierce through all that rock very well? The field may only be able to pass through air and water, and maybe through loose dirt. But mountains made of solid rock, and full of magically reactive minerals? I could completely understand if an isolon eye clone would be useless there. You could cover the outside, but the interior of the mines themselves would have no protection from the eye.

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more replicas beyond the Nekomura one are possible, but let's not start tossing those around or they'll go out of season.

I doubt we need to worry about that. I don't imagine the process to make them is easy or quick. For all we know, it could take years to make just one. Hell, maybe there are only three copies because they've only been able to make three since the first Eye and the Nekomuran copy was made. If they make smaller copies, they would only put them in vital areas, which is why I mentioned the path from the mines to the city. Negav isn't expansionistic, so it wouldn't make sense for them to go plopping miniature isolon eyes all through the jungle. It would be bad to put a bunch of them out in the middle of nowhere, it would just create more safe-spots for bandits or other undesirables to hang out.

I finished to update the isolon fist entries . That really add to them and flesh them out a lot I think, great job on that

Karbo wrote:

I finished to update the isolon fist entries . That really add to them and flesh them out a lot I think, great job on that

Thanks, and Im glad you decided to add in the enchanted weapons and demi-humans.

Seems like about 90% of what I propsoed was added... But the part you cut out, the ability to go toe to toe with giants, really does detract somewhat from the whole thing.

http://felarya.com/wiki/index.php?title=Negavian_factions#Isolon_Fist The wiki link for those who want to read it.

This one sentence really changes the image of the Fist I was trying to create:

"Patrolling the region around Negav is also part of their duty, in order to keep a visible presence and keep in check the numerous bandits and thugs roaming the zone and to drive away smaller predators straying too close to the city, in search of a quick snack. Those latest missions are among the most dangerous and grant dubious strategic gains, but Magiocrats consider they present the advantage of striking the imagination of Negavians and bolster the morale of the city." - The Wiki

I honestly don't see why a competant, well-equipped group of humans, along with powerful mages, is so hard to imagine being able to be on roughly equal footing with a giant predator.

In regards to that part of my idea, you've only given two reasons.

First, you said that they would have "massive casualties" if they stepped out of the Eye's range. I just don't see that, and you've never given a single reason to support your claim. We're talking about the most physically fit, and the most mentally disciplined soldiers in Negav. They know the terrain, they know the wildlife, the flora and what it is capable of. They also have aerial scouts, feeding them real-time information on their surroundings and/or the location of their target. The only way a predator could attack an Isolon Fist squad without dying horribly to gunfire, rockets or magic would be to sneak up on them. Im not saying that its impossible... but really, with a constant eye in the sky while a squad is out, it would be excessively difficult (and probably rely more on an error by the scout than anything).

Im not saying that missions wouldn't go wrong, and that people wouldn't die (it happens all the time in real military operations), but I just am not seeing the "massive casualties".

Second, you claimed that there were no strategic benefits to removing problem predators from the northern border. I've given many reasons why there are, both in this thread, and the old one. I devoted a whole section of my original post to that topic alone.

Also, I've really tried to compromise with you. I admit that the pred-fighting in the original entry was overstated. But I made it a secondary role, I made it something that does not happen as often in modern times (since most preds have heard enough stories to stay away), and I even said in that bit of bolded text in the last post, that they would not go after every pred, just those that loiter around too long, or cause problems with foot-traffic, trade routes and tax collection between Negav and Nekomura.

I effectively toned it down about as much as it could be. I just don't see what the big deal is.

I mean, the Isolon Fist has aerial scouts, they have offworld weapons or guns reverse-engineered from offworld weapons. These guns are also enchanted for superior capabilities. Their training is gruelling and difficult, beyond what is necissary to fight bandits. The Isolon Fist also has arguably the most powerful human-sized mages in known Felarya...and we've seen in the manga that a pair of them, not even supported by true Isolon Fist soldiers, were more than capable of beating up a full-sized naga. The only reason Void and Telekline had to leave is because Crisis snuck on up them (something that wouldn't have happened on an operation outside of Negav with a scout in the air).

Basically, what Im saying is this. If the Isolon Fist has all that, and STILL doesn't stand a chance... well, then who does?

I just think the pred-fighitng capabilities should stay. They should be an elite group of soldiers, trained and able to fight both human-sized AND giant enemies as the mission requires. Not a group of soldiers who mainly fights humans and then dies horribly whenever they step into the wilderness.

We already have an overabundance of incompetant/helpless humans in Felarya. Why don't we give ONE group of humans the ability to properly defend themselves?

Hm. I've actually discussed this with Cauldron over MSN, and he agrees with my assertion that specialists are key to fighting preds. Heavy weapons specialists, to be precise. Well, those and battlemages.

Most soldiers won't be equipped to do anything more than cause stinging pain to preds, and while that may work for driving off opportunistic snackers, a fully-enraged pred would certainly represent a threat you want the big guns for. A squad will obviously put a high priority on defending these weapon specialists when facing preds.

Strategy, superior weapons, strategy, heavy training, strategy, and strategy are what they would rely on when facing predators.

Reading rcs's ideas...the only thing that has me confused are...harpy scouts? Where did THOSE come from?!

Greyman wrote:

Reading rcs's ideas...the only thing that has me confused are...harpy scouts? Where did THOSE come from?!

Human-sized harpies, not giant ones.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Greyman wrote:

Reading rcs's ideas...the only thing that has me confused are...harpy scouts? Where did THOSE come from?!

Human-sized harpies, not giant ones.

I had no idea those even existed.

And people were weirded out by Caylin the giant neko? Geez.....

Yes, there are human size harpies. Notably seagull harpies. The reason people freak out over the fact that Caylin is Giant size is that they are under the opinion that not every species needs a tiny, human, and giant size.

Greyman wrote:

ZionAtriedes wrote:

Greyman wrote:

Reading rcs's ideas...the only thing that has me confused are...harpy scouts? Where did THOSE come from?!

Human-sized harpies, not giant ones.

I had no idea those even existed.

And people were weirded out by Caylin the giant neko? Geez.....

Human-sized harpies, nagas, dridders, slug-girls and mermaids have all existed for a while. I believe it is stated in the wiki that the giant versions are actually a big minority compared to the human-sized ones.

Nekos, like humans (and inu if I have my way) had always been human-sized until Caylin. With all the species that already had multiple-sized variants, we figured that it might be good to keep nekos ONLY human-sized. There is a point where that kind of thing starts to get silly. I mean, what next, human-sized neera? =P

But yes the Motamo Docks, located within the Chomikai Commons (the region around Negav that is outside the walls, but still protected by the Isolon Eye), is home to human-sized hybrids who settled there to seek protection from their giant cousins and other dangers found in the jungle. I know harpies, nagas and dridders live there. Maybe some mermaids too, since that bend in the river is within the Eye's range. Maybe some other hybrid species as well.

That's another reason I think the Fist being strong is important. Negav is a symbol of hope and safety for many people. Not just humans, but elves, neko, inu, neera, nagas, harpies, dridders and more. It would be a shame to have it be unable to even defend itself against giants, and rely entirely on the Eye.

Ok well first, sorry for having made the update without making sure it was ok with you. I was working on the wiki at the time and I just went with the flow on the spur of the moment so to speak ^^; I'll understand if you wish me to take it down.

However when I created the Fist I hadn't a policing role in mind for them. It's a force that is capable of beating a giant predator outside the eye's range, yes, but not on a regular basis.

I did give my reasons on that previous thread. I simply see the job as much too dangerous vs the gains. There is an awful lot of things that can goes wrong during these missions : traps and ambush laid by predators. After all they are sentient and just as clever as humans and the jungle is their home, the place they lived during all their life. The aggressive fauna is a constant danger that can make a carefully planned operation goes wrong. And most of all, the noise of the engagement with guns blazing and big explosions is a sure way to attract more predators to the scene too. What if two curious fairies suddenly decide to join in, in the middle of the fight with a giant naga ? starting to shrink members of the squad one by one ? That would be probably the end of the whole unit. Also I don't think aerial scouts would grant such good control over the situation either, in a thick and immense jungle environment like Felarya. If they stay in the sky they will essentially only see trees, if they go in, they expose themselves to all sort of dangers.

battling a giant 100 feet predator in their own environment is not something casual at all. And I don't think it should ever become so.

So in my mind, yes, going patrolling there every few days would cause lot of casualties among the Fist' s ranks for little gains. And I don't think the Magiocrats would agree with it, as most of them regard the Fist as a way to keep Vishmitals in check. And for that they need it fresh and ready, with all its battlemages available. That power sharing deal is shaky after what amounted to a near cvil war, and there is not an awful lot of trusts between the two camps.

To finish on a positive note, I don't think our two visions are that far away ^^ I do agree that the Fist can, on occasion, goes out of the Eye's range, battle giant preds and be victorious. And if you wish I can add a clear mention of that in the entry. However I'm still opposed to making it a regular thing they do now, or a regular thing did on the past. That's not the role I had in mind when I created them and more generally I'm not for having engaging giant preds be something casual.

Well, the manga's shown what Karbo meant by how unpredictable Felarya can be. The group in the second issue was doing just fine against Anna, and then Crisis showed up...

Karbo wrote:

However when I created the Fist I hadn't a policing role in mind for them. It's a force that is capable of beating a giant predator outside the eye's range, yes, but not on a regular basis.

I don't think Cliff intended them to simply waltz into the jungle and bust up some preds. They would stay rather close to Negav, and any assault on a giant pred would require a great deal of strategy and caution.

Karbo wrote:

Also I don't think aerial scouts would grant such good control over the situation either, in a thick and immense jungle environment like Felarya. If they stay in the sky they will essentially only see trees, if they go in, they expose themselves to all sort of dangers.

I don't know if he's said it in this thread, but I know Cliff explained that the scouts would use either infrared or enchanted goggles to overcome the canopy obscuring their view.

Karbo wrote:

battling a giant 100 feet predator in their own environment is not something casual at all. And I don't think it should ever become so.

None of us ever intended for it to be. If the Fist engages preds, chances are they're preds who recently moved in too close to Negav, not ones out in the deep jungle. The Fist would send their best men, armed with the best guns, and they'd make sure to scout the area first.

The Fist could never play an offensive role in the deep jungle, since they lack the numbers and logistics for it. If they operate outside of the Eye's range, they have to be careful about it. It's not exactly a night on the town.

I remember that Cauldron, while I spoke with him on MSN, had the idea that the Fist would use preds to weed out their weaker recruits. After training, they'd send the new Fist members into the jungle near Negav to survive for a bit. Those who were still alive... were Fists. Those who didn't become Fists were probably chow by then. Cliff wasn't overly fond of this idea, and I'm only putting it here to ask for further impressions.

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After all they are sentient and just as clever as humans and the jungle is their home, the place they lived during all their life

This is true. But they haven't been trained, nor would many of them have any kind of knowledge beyond their experience. They don't have any experience beyond themselves. The troops in the Fist and indeed, any long running military have their own experience and the experiences of their predecessors to work from. This is even more true in Felarya due to the longevity of life. The troops in the Fist would be operating from hundreds of years of experience.

Predators, due to their lack of organisation can not do that. Even the ones that have lived hundreds of years still only have their own experience. If two fist members live the same one hundred years and go on different missions, then relate their experiences to younger troops, then that is two hundred years of experience given. That's more than a predator can have.

Also, keep in mind. The giant hybrids are still just... giant people. They aren't professional soldiers, they haven't been trained to become living weapons, they don't necissarily have the discipline, focus or patience that an elite soldier would have.

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There is an awful lot of things that can goes wrong during these missions : traps and ambush laid by predators.

These people are trained professionals. Elites.

Not every predator is Melany. Any traps the average predator constructs would be crude and easy to spot due to their lack of fine manipulators and their inexperience with making such traps. Not to mention that as I stated before, the Fist would have a lot of experience with predators attempting to trap them and would be able to recognise a lot of rudimentary traps.

Also, for a predator to know to even set a trap, it would need to see the Fist coming first...which is pretty tough to do when they have eyes in the sky.

Maybe a pred could have heard of them before, and built a trap to try and lead them to in an emergency? But that goes back to the above statement about them possibly expecting that.

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The aggressive fauna is a constant danger that can make a carefully planned operation goes wrong.

That's why they have weapons and battlemages. If a battle mage pair give an intelligent humanoid predator a world of hurt, as was shown in the wiki, then what's stopping them from doing the same to a bunch of dumb animals? I mean, if they can beat up a full-grown naga, even something as big as a kensha beast shouldn't be too hard to knock around with their magic. They wouldn't even need to use their guns, unless they got jumped by a ridiculous amount of dangerous animals.

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And most of all, the noise of the engagement with guns blazing and big explosions is a sure way to attract more predators to the scene too.

Forests are loud, even 'tamed' ones. The hundreds of thousands of insects and animals living in those forests create an incredible amount of noise.

How much more would an untamed jungle with trees of all sizes, animals of many sizes and millions, if not billions of insects ranging from giant to tiny make? The answer is deafening.
So a predator, or anyone else would have to be very close to hear a battle.

On top of that, I'm pretty sure it was established at one point that the average predators don't usually live too close to one another. Therefore, the chance of another predator hearing the fight is extremely low. The unit would probably have forewarning of it too, as detailed in my reply about aerial scouts below.

Also, guns DO hurt predators, and some of them would know that. If it were a shotgun, or pistol...sure, I could see a pred homing in on that for a snack. But not fully automatic machinegun fire or the sounds of rockets and explosions...things that are potentially lethal and certainly capable of causing injury and pain. Any sane pred would go "Nope, not going over there" and head in the opposite direction.

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What if two curious fairies suddenly decide to join in, in the middle of the fight with a giant naga ? starting to shrink members of the squad one by one ? That would be probably the end of the whole unit

Giant predators are not that common. If two fairies and a giant naga were all within a couple miles of eachother, down by Negav, they they would probably be travelling together (something your scouts would probably notice as they observe the naga). Also, even human-sized fairies don't fly THAT fast. They would need to turn giant to get there in any decent time, and would be perfectly spottable by your scouts.

Also, a bunch of humans with guns is the last thing a fairy should want to mess with. It only takes one stray bullet to potentially cripple or disrupt their magical abilities.

Either way, that would be an extremely rare circumstance and require extremely bad luck to run into. Unseen fairies sneaking up on the squad though, yeah that probably is going to end badly. That is why scouts and intelligence gathering before going after a pred are so vital.

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Also I don't think aerial scouts would grant such good control over the situation either, in a thick and immense jungle environment like Felarya. If they stay in the sky they will essentially only see trees, if they go in, they expose themselves to all sort of dangers.

Current military thermal goggles can see the heat signature of a person through the walls of a building. I don't think it would be too much of an issue for them to see a 120ft tall heat source through the canopy. Leaves and trees are not impassable things that heat and light cannot get through.

That isn't even factoring in the use of magi-tech to enhance or change the way goggles function. They could potentially make magical imaging goggles, that detect the magical field of a living thing. Something as big as a naga, or as magically gifted as a fairy would glow like a torch compared to the background.

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battling a giant 100 feet predator in their own environment is not something casual at all. And I don't think it should ever become so.

I never intended for it to be a casual thing. Look at my "Just another day on the job" story. The battlemages and soldiers may joke around a bit before and after their encounter with the naga... but they treat the actual fight with the naga very seriously, and do nearly get killed twice during it. There is a difference between being casual about something, and being a little cocky and a confident because you are the best at what you do, or joke around a bit to try and ease the tension.

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So in my mind, yes, going patrolling there every few days

First of all, I never meant to imply that it was every few days. I thought I made it clear in my above posts that preds very rarely even come near Negav anymore, and when they do, only preds who loiter around for excessive amounts of time or disrupt the travel and trade-route between Negav and Nekomura would even be targetted by the Fist for removal.

I figured only a small handful of preds would even come close enough to be spotted each month. I imagine Negav is a truly scary thing for most of them. Its a group of humans that is more powerful and more organized than any of them would have ever seen before. Not to mention, that between the preds the Isolon Fist have killed or driven off over the decades, and the ones that have been killed or frightened off whenever the vishmitals get bored and decide to shoot at something, there's probably enough horror stories to keep most preds from even coming near it. Only the foolish, greedy or ignorant preds would probably even chance coming close.

Second of all, the Isolon Fist isn't like, sending out groups to patrol. That would be stupid, and inefficient. What they would do is send out regular jetbike or harpy patrols. They can keep on the look-out for preds, and scout for groups of bandits or their hide-outs, without needing to put people on the ground or in harm's way. When they find a target, they would observe it for a while, taking notes on any patterns or habits that could be exploited... and THEN an Isolon Fist squad would be sent in to drive off/kill the pred, or wipe out the bandits.

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for little gains

I've explained that before. I devoted a whole section of the original post to it. Border security IS important, and it would help inspire the Negavian people (as well as making the Magiocrats seem powerful and active).

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Fist as a way to get Vishmitals in check as well.

What do the investigators do then? They are better suited for that kind of thing too. They are subtle, battlemages are not. Battlemages are like tanks, they do tons of damage and can ruin enemy morale. They can also act as a deterrant, especially as more get recruited. Also... imagine the psychological impact on the vishmitals when stories of the Fist killing or driving off a pred come back and start to get spread around Negav? It would be intimidating. Vishmitals will start to wonder what they could do to people who can stand up to giant predators.

On top of that, if a vishmital/magiocrat civil war did break out, they could call in the troops that are off rotation.

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To finish on a positive note, I don't think our two visions are that far away ^^ I do agree that the Fist can, on occasion, goes out of the Eye's range, battle giant preds and be victorious

Then we are in agreement on that.

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However I'm still opposed to making it a regular thing they do now, or a regular thing did on the past

Never intended it to be a regular thing. Its not like the Isolon Fist are strolling through the jungle, slapping giant nagas upside the head twice a week. I figured they'd be lucky to see more than a half-dozen preds come close to the city a month, and MAYBE have to actually go out to deal with one or two of them, if that. It really just depends on if the pred is making a nuisance out of itself and is disrupting things outside the walls.

ok

We agree on the fact that an Isolon fist unit could beat a giant pred.
We agree on the fact they would do it inside the average eye's range in order to keep the zone safe.

However we disagree on the fact they would conduct such operations outside of the eye range in what is the deep jungle. ( unless you weren't meaning that, making most of the arguing moot in that case. )

I see your point about strategical gains, but that's a double way street. In case of faillure that would put a crushing blow to morale as well. and Battlemages aren't numerous enough they can be expendable. In the manga, Lady Lesona is going to have the council give her flake for having sent Telekline and Voidfingers in the middle of the jungle and loosing them ( although she did that for a reason of her own )

and I really think you are under-estimating the danger of going out there and engaging a pred in the deep jungle, and I'm not convinced at all that scouting in a multi-layered jungle would grant that much intelligence as to what is going on, even with infrared googles, in a place teeming of life. Also I might be mistaken but as I see jetbikes, they are high speed vehicles to go around, not helicopters. Fairies are also a lot more numerous than other preds and they don't respect territories at all. That's not in their mindset. They are essentially wandering around to hunt or have some fun. Having a couple of them sneaking in during a battle would be a very real risk and a potential disaster spelling doom for the whole unit. As for noises, well again if I get this right, during a battle, insects and birds would go quiet. that would make rockets explosions loud and clear.

Anyway I rephrased the first part to make it more clear the Fist is capable to engage preds : http://felarya.com/wiki/index.php?title=Negavian_factions

If you both will allow me, there's a few things I feel need to be reminded to everyone about this issue. I've spent two hours compiling this message... thought it'd be shorter... now I'd like to get on with my life.


Cliff, not all predators are orphans. Some of them are going to learn from their parents, and their parents' friends. While they might not have a unified cultural heritage, aborigin groups even today can do amazing things.

Similarly, necessity is the mother of invention. Sometimes, being 100 foot tall can give you plenty of options while improvising. We could probably file their own ingenuity under "unknown odds", but no one is just a person. Except to fairies.

======

Also, Karbo, predators closer than average range won't be as commited to holding their territories for the sole sake of eating humans or they won't have gotten there in the first place. If they're closer it's either because they're smaller/ not as voracious towards them, and they should be easier to scare off. It's the ones hanging relatively far from the eye, maybe close to the road, that are going to be the most trouble.

To be frank, overestimating or underestimating the danger is a moot point as well. There'll always be danger, but around Negav is as safe as the jungle gets. At least, the end line is close by. If we add in dimensional deployment/extraction to the combination, as seen in the manga, the danger can become even more of a moot point.

Also, jetbikes come in rocket or VTOL versions. The VTOL version can hover.

You are also giving the predators very little credit on their self-preservation instinct. Much as I like fairies, I'd like to think they're the first to look out for themselves and would probably head away from the gunfire if they didn't personally know the one getting shot at. I know they might as well disagree with people getting shot and might try to make their displeasure at the situation abundantly known, but it just seemed to make for a poor example.

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Trying to offer or disprove individual complications is nothing but an exercise in patience as well for the both of you. If it won't be two fairies, if it won't be a kensha, if it won't be a bandit force, if it won't be another predator, if it won't be that the predator has a marine whispering orders through a concealed earphone, if it won't be anything we can think of it'll probably be something else, and any soldier knows it. But they take their chances, and when faced with the situation it's up to them to look for a way to prevail.

======

Now about the PR angle...


The easiest way to scare off a naga would be by showing her what the cannons can do to her, and the vishmitals would be best suited to this: call a miss a warning shot, and whoever it is will probably not feel all that too keen on dodging giant explosions that come from nowhere for the rest of their lives. Don't underestimate the Vishmitali ability to put forward observers either: all it would take is a few thousand cameras. They don't need to be high in resolution. If the vishmitali can't make cellphone cams capable of nailing a 100 foot tall monster's position to the nearest 10 metres and hiding them in a figgin' forest where they give them the most field of coverage, that would suck. Bandits, outlaws and Storm Sprites could disarm that defense line, but it'd require some work not to get fried by artillery fire while doing it. Matter of fact, I could see the vishmitali "outsourcing" some actions to the Fist so as to not fire their giant artillery at someone who might figure out how they found out where to shoot.

The Fist would, if they are to police the borders, need to act either quicker than the Vishmitali or far outside gun range, unless the Vishmitals are going to pass up on the PR themselves- unlike the Fist, people will probably notice if a gun that size gets fired close to home, and they'll get curious: giant guns are good for PR. Inside Eye range they could use more of a focus on hostage operations with bandits or real-time interventions against ongoing predator attacks, where killing everybody will not do. Then again, I know real-time interventions are sort of extreme, but you can't get better PR.

We could probably rule out the possibility they work INSIDE average eye range if they are trying to make the predators go away. Otherwise, the Fist would have to preempt the Vishmitali if they wanted anything done in their name: the Vishmitali can act at virtually no cost to themselves, unless they accidentally make Timmy explode because he wasn't yet down her well. The Magiocrats would never let them live that one down.

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However we disagree on the fact they would conduct such operations outside of the eye range in what is the deep jungle. ( unless you weren't meaning that, making most of the arguing moot in that case. )

I believe they would engage preds a few miles outside of the Eye's range (since that is likely where they will be making camp and become more vulnerable to attack).

I think most of this would occur in and around the gap in the Negav and Nekomuran Eyes, since preserving travel and trade routes between the two cities is important. But, if a pred is living a little ways away from the Eye and is regularly coming in to cause problems, I believe they would go out after it.

I do not really consider this "deep jungle" though. It would only be a few miles outside of the Eye's range. Its not like I had them storming off into the tolmeshol forest. If you look at the map, I don't expect them to ever need to go any further north than Nekomura, and would almost never even need to go nearly that far. In terms of geography, they are still well within Negav's backyard.

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In case of faillure that would put a crushing blow to morale as well

I doubt they would report failures. The only people who would even know are the people actually on the operation (that survived) and people within the Isolon Fist that ordered it. Pay the families of the dead to be quiet, and its done. When in doubt, cover-up failures. The Magiocrats ARE polticians afterall =P Real world militaries pad their statistics and success rates all the time.

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and I'm not convinced at all that scouting in a multi-layered jungle would grant that much intelligence as to what is going on, even with infrared googles, in a place teeming of life

A US predator drone operator can be given a description of a suspicious vehicle and its approximate location... and then find it in the middle of Bahgdad, a city teeming with people and vehicles all over. Scouting isn't something anyone can just do. It requires intense training, keen eyes and instincts and a lot of patience. Seeing a 120ft tall giant strolling around wouldn't be hard. Even the "large" wildlife rarely comes past a giant hybrid's hips.

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Also I might be mistaken but as I see jetbikes, they are high speed vehicles to go around, not helicopters

Im pretty sure they can hover just fine. If I remember, they have big lift-fans on them like a banshee in SCII. They take off from Negav, you HAVE to be able to take off vertically. There's not exactly room for a landing strip.

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Fairies are also a lot more numerous than other preds and they don't respect territories at all. That's not in their mindset. They are essentially wandering around to hunt or have some fun. Having a couple of them sneaking in during a battle would be a very real risk and a potential disaster spelling doom for the whole unit

Having more than one giant pred in the same area (unless they are friends/travelling together) is pretty rare. Also, shrunken fairies move slow. Unless they turn giant, they would never make it there before the fight was over.

Also, gonna post an idea that will help with balance. Watch for a fairy thread to get bumped by me.

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for noises, well again if I get this right, during a battle, insects and birds would go quiet. that would make rockets explosions loud and clear.

Loud and clear for most preds to go "Those sound like things that can hurt me. Im going to leave them alone". Like I said, i could see a pred investigating a pistol or lone shotgun blast...but not fully automatic machinegun fire, rockets and explosions. That would be stupid and way too risky.

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Anyway I rephrased the first part to make it more clear the Fist is capable to engage preds

That is much better. Thank you. Now they sound a lot meaner and more capable ^^

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Cliff, not all predators are orphans. Some of them are going to learn from their parents, and their parents' friends. While they might not have a unified cultural heritage, aborigin groups even today can do amazing things.

I was counting on that, actually. That would be why so few predators stray too close to Negav. Their family and/or friends would have warned them of it. That's why I figure the only ones would would chance getting close to Negav would be the foolish, the greedy, or those who just never got told about the giant human city with the massive guns and freakishly strong mages.

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The easiest way to scare off a naga would be by showing her what the cannons can do to her, and the vishmitals would be best suited to this: call a miss a warning shot, and whoever it is will probably not feel all that too keen on dodging giant explosions that come from nowhere for the rest of their lives.

True, but I doubt the vishmitals will shoot off valuable ammo all the time, and I really can't see the magiocrats cooperating with them unless the city were about to be destroyed.

However, I DO that that, occaisionally... either out of boredom, an excess of ammo, or the desire to remind the magiocrats they are still there, that the vishmitals would send out a forward observer on a jetbike to look for a target, so they have something to shoot at. I think these random, infrequent shootings would go a long way towards making Negav feared over the decades. Same with the AA guns too I imagine. If a harpy flies too close, I could see the vishmitals taking a few potshots at her.

They can't afford to waste ammo all the time, but gun tests here and there would be needed to keep them in working condition.

Honestly though, I don't think the vishmitals would care much about good PR. They don't run the city, and they don't usually care for many of the other residents besides their own ethnic group. I COULD see them using spies or other such things to make sure the magiocrats can't easily cover-up mistakes though. Maybe work to leak Isolon Fist operations that fail, or don't go quite to plan.

While Cliff has done an excellent job at stating the points I would have brought up, I'd like to add one little thing.

rcs619 wrote:

They can't afford to waste ammo all the time, but gun tests here and there would be needed to keep them in working condition.

This is quite true. Guns, like all technology, can malfunction. Regular testing is important for keeping them in working order. Of course, proper maintenance makes malfunction very unlikely, but you do need to check the effectiveness of the weapon's condition if engagements are infrequent. You also need to keep gunners in-practice, so they know what to do if they're needed. That's why militaries conduct "wargames" during peacetime, to prevent their troops from getting soft and their weapons from getting dusty.

I don't see the Vishmitals a-hootin' and a-hollerin' with their guns blasting on a nightly basis, but I'm sure the top brass among them would enjoy the idea of Negavians looking up in awe as their mighty guns open up on some distant target, basically showing off their muscles to everyone. Even if they're not subject to political opinion, it's important for any political group to let people know what they can do.

Stabs wrote:

Trying to offer or disprove individual complications is nothing but an exercise in patience as well for the both of you.

Yeah let's cut on the back and forth.

rcs619 wrote:

That is much better. Thank you. Now they sound a lot meaner and more capable ^^

Alright then is it ok ? can we consider this matter solved ? ^^

Karbo wrote:

Stabs wrote:

Trying to offer or disprove individual complications is nothing but an exercise in patience as well for the both of you.

Yeah let's cut on the back and forth.

rcs619 wrote:

That is much better. Thank you. Now they sound a lot meaner and more capable ^^

Alright then is it ok ? can we consider this matter solved ? ^^

I think we've come to a general agreement on this, yes ^^