Expanding/refining the Isolon Fist

I have always thought of the Isolon Fist as one of the most interesting factions in Negav, and currently, its wiki entry is pretty bare-bones. So, since Im still on an Isolon Fist kick after writing my last story, I figured I'd make a thread full of random ideas and thoughts on the subject.

Origins: (Completely made up by me. This is just an idea)

The initial ideas for the Isolon Fist began to be developed when the Magiocrats realized that there were still some serious flaws in Negav's defenses. Following the fall of Micolon, most of the Magiocrats' attention was on getting the city under control again. This included crushing remaining pockets of Micolon loyalists who refused to accept their new government, as well as regulating the increasing numbers of Vishmital immigrants. The various Negav internal security forces did this job well enough, but when the Magiocrats looked at issues occuring outside of the city, things were not quite as under control.

While the Isolon Eye kept predators from getting to the city itself, it could do nothing to stop them from camping out near its border, and picking off anyone they came across. Eventually, the cannons installed by the Vishmitals helped push them back slightly, but not completely. The predators used the cover of the northern forests to keep out of sight, and move freely about. The only available option to deal with them was to enlist the aid of the Vishmitals and their guns, but even this required someone to have a visual on the target to give firing coordinates. The entire process was inefficient, and half the time, the predator would be long gone by the time the firing orders were processed through both the Magiocrat and Vishmital chains of command.

Having to rely on the Vishmital immigrants to help actively defend the city did not sit well with the Magiocrats either and, they felt, made their government seem weak.

The flaws in the current defensive system were made embarassingly apparent when a trio of Nagas eluded the guns for weeks, eating dozens of humans, nekos and Inu. These three predators also nearly caused the Nekomuran Isolon Eye copy to run out, since getting someone to Nekomura to charge the device had proved nearly impossible with them around.

Obviously, a new solution was needed. This was when early plans for the Isolon Fist were laid out. A group composed of heavily armed soldiers, and extremely powerful, and well-trained battlemages. They would not only act as the Magiocrats' private army, but constantly work to create a buffer around Negav's borders, so that no predators could simply hang around for weeks, causing chaos with impunity.

The Northern border:

This region has been one of the most dangerous ones around Negav, since the city's founding. Thanks to the Dryad network being able to spread around information, it has long-since become common knowledge that some kind of magical field protects a massive human city south of the Tolmeshal Forest. Many predators have, over the years, tried to move into the area, to pick off all of the adventurers coming and going from Negav, and Neko town that is northwest of it.

THe Magiocrats decided that keeping this region as secure as possible was of vital importance to the city. Predators could not be allowed to just pile up outside of the Eye's range, and move around with no risk. Also, many local businesses such as restaurants, shops, taverns and inns make nearly all of their money off of offworld adventurers. Should it ever get to the point where these adventurers cannot leave the city, or come back some of the time with their loot, then the number of people coming to Negav from offworld could decrease, which would ripple through the Negavian economy.

There were also political implications to consider as well. The Magiocrats worried that they would be percieved as weak, should they be unable to secure an area that is so near to the city.

Isolon Fist organization:

The Isolon Fist typically deploys its members in groups of ten. These groups consist of...

- ( 2 ) Battlemages, usually paired together because their powers work well in tandem.
- ( 8 ) Conventionally armed soldiers. One of these will hold the rank of captain, and have second-highest authority under the two battlemages.
- Specialist units: Squads can opt to add a specialist to their squad, depending on preferrence, or the mission at hand. Currently, Harpy scouts are the most commonly demanded specialist, thanks to their high mobility and great eyesight.

Isolon Fist weaponry:

The soldiers of the Isolon Fist use weapons designed to bring down giant creatures. Belt-fed light machineguns (not usually lethal, but cause excessive pain), rockets (one-hit kills), grenade launchers and many other types of heavy weaponry are all obtainable, and used by the Fist.

Isolon Fist uniforms:

The Isolon Fist has two distinctive types of uniform.

- Conventional soldiers: The conventional soldiers of the Isolon Fist are not all that dissimilar from what you would expect a soldier to look like. Their clothes typically contain green, black, brown, and other forest colors. Their clothes typically have lots of pockets, and they carry all sorts of gear and weapons on them when heading off on a mission. (They would probably have some fantasy-ish traits to them. Something like Lord of the Rings meets Modern Warfare, I think)

- Battlemages: The uniform of a battlemage is distinctive and unique. Isolon Fist battlemages wear pure, white, hooded cloaks. There are usually markings on the shoulders, as well as along the cloak's borders. The other key element to their uniform is what sits on their chest. On the chest of each cloak, is a shield-shaped piece of metal, roughly the size of a human's hand. On it, various markings and symbols are engraved, but the most dominant feature, is the engraved image of a single open, glaring eye.

Because of the battlemage's high status, and the fact that there are relatively few of them compared to other soldiers, each mage gets a high degree of leeway with cunstomization. They can take their cloaks to the official Isolon Fist tailor, and have all sorts of modifications made. Because of this, no two battlemages' outfits will look exactly alike, their only identical traits being that they both wear white, and the piece of metal laying across their chests.

Most battlemages have two outfits at any given time. One uses a plain, unmodified white cloak. This is worn for formal events and ceremonies. The other outfit will use the modified cloak, and be worn out on missions.

The clothes worn beneath the white cloak are entirely up to the mage's personal preferrence. They tend to be darker, more practical types of clothing.

Battle doctrine:

On a standard border-clearing mission, the ideal solution is to actually NOT kill the target predator. A dead predator is a 100+ ton corpse that needs to be dealt with. It has to be hauled off to a dumping site, and buried or burned. Overall, it is just unpleasent and a hassle.

Most of the time, the Isolon Fist prefers to drive off a predator, rather than kill it. They will rough it up, wound it, and so on, and when it knows it is beaten and can't win...they let it go, with the warning to never return. This practice has several good parts to it:

- No giant corpses to deal with
- Most predators have friends. They will go to their friends, show them their wounds, and tell them horror stories of freakishly strong humans. This will, in turn, convince some other predators that coming anywhere close to Negav is a bad idea.
- Thanks to the Dryad network, these horror stories about the "white cloaks" made it into even the deeper areas of the wilderness, although some predators are still skeptical about whether they are true or not.

Of course, just like some humans, some predators will refuse to listen to reason, or too stubborn to give up, so they will have to be killed to remove their threat from the near-Negav area.

Keeping the stress down:

Because of the stresses involved in their jobs, the Isolon Fist works on a rotation system. A unit will go "on rotation" for a certain amount of time, where they can be called out on a mission whenever a problem comes up. When their rotation is up, they will go "off rotation" and get a certain number of days off, to relax, unwind, and prepare themselves for their next time on rotation.

---------

Either way, just some ideas I got while writing my story. Let me know what you guys thing. Maybe we can get a nice discussion going =D

Something about the cloaks and robes, I guess, would need to have a relatively short hemline so they don't get regularly caught onto anything. Also, this is mostly because it's going to be a plot point in one of my works, but does the Isolon Fist conscript members?

I think there are good ideas here but I'm not convinced by having the Isolon fist trying to keep order *outside* of the eye range. That would be a very dangerous job in my opinion, that would lead to many casualties for... well not much in the end.
I mean trying to do the police in the jungle outside of the eye range would be a bit like trying to empty the sea with a spoon. If they manage to defeat a pred, another would just take its place the day after, not to mention the fauna that would medle in as well. That would be endless. They could go and repel a pred that has encroached in the zone from time to time but doing it on a regular basis sounds pretty much unsustainable to me.

As I see it, if Negav wants to increase their safety range, they would have to implant smaller eyes around. That's a very real possibility and they may well do that at some points , although it would comes with its lot of problems as well, political and practical. But that would be more productive I think.

Yeah, though I agree with Karbo that predators would be way too tenacious in wanting to pick of random passerby's, it's still a decent idea to think that the Isolon Fist would protect pathways and often traveled merchant roads.

Maybe a smaller set of eyes would be a good idea to explain it.

Karbo wrote:

I think there are good ideas here but I'm not convinced by having the Isolon fist trying to keep order *outside* of the eye range. That would be a very dangerous job in my opinion, that would lead to many casualties for... well not much in the end.
I mean trying to do the police in the jungle outside of the eye range would be a bit like trying to empty the sea with a spoon. If they manage to defeat a pred, another would just take its place the day after, not to mention the fauna that would medle in as well. That would be endless. They could go and repel a pred that has encroached in the zone from time to time but doing it on a regular basis sounds pretty much unsustainable to me.

As I see it, if Negav wants to increase their safety range, they would have to implant smaller eyes around. That's a very real possibility and they may well do that at some points , although it would comes with its lot of problems as well, political and practical. But that would be more productive I think.

Actually Karbo, from the way RCS is describing it, the Fist aren't normally an Offensive force.

Their job appears to be regularly patrolling the boarder of the eye's influence, beating the crap out of any loitering Giant Predators they find there, and telling them that Negav doesn't take to kindly to their type.

Sure, it'd be a fool's errand to kill every man-eater in the jungle (despite what Lady Lesona may think), but it'd be equally as foolish to let a gigantic wall of Naga, Mermaids, and Dridders line up at the edge of the Isolon's effect.

mhh I think I want to make a thing a bit more clear here. The Isolon eye's influence is not a sort of force field where you take a step in and *hop* you are in, you take a step back, you are out ^^;
It works gradually and *differently* for each predators.
And being just at the limit of the minimum allowed range for a given pred, say Crisis, would mean she would still feel very uneasy being there and would most likely not hang around. So there is not really a danger of having that image of an encircling wall of giant preds waiting around Negav. The zone around Negav would be populated by : first : pretty harmless animals, then gradually becoming more dangerous and voracious until it's pretty much the normal jungle fauna and then voracious giant preds.
My point is, getting into the jungle everydays to engage those preds would be a very perillous task, and not really fruitful in term of impact versus the risk and casualties suffered. Unless you do it mostly for the image, and stick to engaging preds that were close and thus not really that dangerous for humans.

I think Black Aquila is correct. If the Magiocrats just let predators pile up at the edges, the Isolon eye would become like a cage, with predators as guards. Anyone trying to venture out would be captured.

The Isolon fist would have to patrol to prevent that. This isn't as difficult as it sounds, considering the tactical assets at their disposal.


Tactical Assets:

• Maps
  The area immediately surrounding Negav wouldn't really be wilderness. Considering it's proximity to Negav and the number of adventurers, explorers and other humans that would be travelling through there, it would be mapped extensively. These maps would be vital in planning patrol paths, escape routes and the likely locations of predators.
  
• Wall guns and other wall mounted ordnance
  The range of wall the wall guns is quite far, Cauldronborn has calculated that it would probably be further than the range of the eye. These guns could provide fire support for squads outside the eye's range
  
• The Isolon Eye's area of effect.
  An obvious one; the eye's area of effect is a like psychological warfare zone. Coming under fire while in it's effect would drive predators away quickly.
  
• Jetbikes
  While Jetbikes aren't armed, they can act as excellent air scouts, supply vehicles and transport for injured soldiers. In addition, they could also act as spotters for the Wall guns.
  

All this considered, I believe that Isolon fist squads could effectively patrol beyond the eye's range. Simple luring would work wonders, as would distracting predators as artillery support is called. Those are just some of the simple tactics that could be used to drive predators away.

Attempting to liken this to empting the sea with the spoon isn't quite right. A drop of water is inanimate, it doesn't care what happens to another drop.
Predators are sentient. If they hear that there's this dangerous place where organised humans patrol regularly; they'll be far less likely to go there.
Saying that the Isolon Fist shouldn't patrol is like saying police officers shouldn't patrol since they'll never be able to arrest every criminal as new ones constantly arise. That's an obvious fallacy.

Quote :

And being just at the limit of the minimum allowed range for a given pred, say Crisis, would mean she would still feel very uneasy being there and would most likely not hang around. So there is not really a danger of having that image of an encircling wall of giant preds waiting around Negav. The zone around Negav would be populated by : first : pretty harmless animals, then gradually becoming more dangerous and voracious until it's pretty much the normal jungle fauna and then voracious giant preds.

A fading effect does not prevent a ring of predators
Predators getting wind of a place that's guaranteed to have treats coming through with no threat of repercussions? They'll go as close as they feel safe, which would result in a high concentration of predators around the edges of the eye's effect.
That is what the Magiocrats would want to prevent; a higher concentration of predators near Negav.

Quote :

My point is, getting into the jungle everydays to engage those preds would be a very perillous task in, and not really fruitful in term of impact versus the risk and casualties suffered. Unless you do it mostly for the image, and stick to engaging preds that were close and thus not really that dangerous for humans.

Well of course they're not going to go into the deep jungle, but stopping giant predators from setting up shop around Negav? I think they could do that with little to no casualties per patrol. They have the home ground advantage there. They're trained for it. Aren't they supposed to be the best?

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Attempting to liken this to empting the sea with the spoon isn't quite right. A drop of water is inanimate, it doesn't care what happens to another drop.
Predators are sentient. If they hear that there's this dangerous place where organised humans patrol regularly; they'll be far less likely to go there.
Saying that the Isolon Fist shouldn't patrol is like saying police officers shouldn't patrol since they'll never be able to arrest every criminal as new ones constantly arise. That's an obvious fallacy..

Hem that's not an "obvious fallacy".
We are not speaking of a police arresting criminals here. we are speaking about squads of humans going into an incredibly hostile environement, with a deadly fauna, in order to engage 110 feet tall sentient creatures..
They could succeed from time to time but not without suffering huge losses overall that would greatly offset any theorical gains.

If I was a magiocrat in charge of expanding the area of safety of Negav I wouldn't order patrols in the jungle that would disappear every few days. Instead, I woul push the council to agree to build a couple of smaller eyes around Negav.

And if I was a giant naga hearing about this region being patrolled by groups of armed humans, well within my range, in the opposite of trying to avoid them I would think it's a nice opportunity and I would come prepared, with a plan. Hell I could even call a friend or two in order to set a nice little ambush.

Well then, if the Isolon Fist wasn't made to patrol, was it made for the purpose of escorts then, or were they founded for a different goal?

Karbo wrote:

And if I was a giant naga hearing about this region being patrolled by groups of armed humans, well within my range, in the opposite of trying to avoid them I would think it's a nice opportunity and I would come prepared, with a plan. Hell I could even call a friend or two in order to set a nice little ambush.

And we can call it an ambrunch!

But I agree with Karbo, these predators have friends, If the Isolon Fist started making trouble too far outside the eye's range they are going to get squished.

Karbo wrote:

Hem that's not an "obvious fallacy".
We are not speaking of a police arresting criminals here. we are speaking about squads of humans going into an incredibly hostile environement, with a deadly fauna, in order to engage 110 feet tall sentient creatures..
They could succeed from time to time but not without suffering huge losses overall that would greatly offset any theorical gains.

If I was a magiocrat in charge of expanding the area of safety of Negav I wouldn't order patrols in the jungle that would disappear every few days. Instead, I woul push the council to agree to build a couple of smaller eyes around Negav.

And if I was a giant naga hearing about this region being patrolled by groups of armed humans, well within my range, in the opposite of trying to avoid them I would think it's a nice opportunity and I would come prepared, with a plan. Hell I could even call a friend or two in order to set a nice little ambush.

Karbo, I apologize and I mean no disrespect, but I have to call BULLSHIT on this.

The thinking here isn't that the Fist is some army that marches off into the jungles to kill all Predators and expand Negav, rather, their job is to secure the already establish perimeter by patrolling it and harrasing any Predators that linger too close for comfort.

They wouldn't go that far outside the Eye's range, only JUST enough to ensure there wasn't something camping out there for an easy meal.

Quote :

Hem that's not an "obvious fallacy".
We are not speaking of a police arresting criminals here

Actually, the concept is not all that different. The police going around arresting criminals could be considered a "pointless task", since there will always be more criminals. But law enforcment needs to be done. It helps remove dangerous individuals from the population, and the threat of prison prevents other people from breaking the law themselves.

Quote :

we are speaking about squads of humans going into an incredibly hostile environement, with a deadly fauna, in order to engage 110 feet tall sentient creatures..
They could succeed from time to time but not without suffering huge losses overall.

These aren't just any group of humans bumbling through the forest. This is the Isolon Fist, look at what is at their disposal. Negav is the most organized and technologically advanced group of natives in known Felarya. Their battlemages have some of the most powerful magic around, and their soldiers are using offworld weaponry that is perfectly capable of maiming and killing a predator. They know their home region, and it is extensively mapped. Above all this though, they have intel, specifically aerial intel in the form of human-sized harpies and jetbikes. It would be incredibly difficult for anything to sneak up on them.

Also, I don't see why the region outside of Negav couldn't be fortified. Perhaps a series of emergency shelters and/or escape tunnels. It wouldn't prevent casualties, but if a mission went wrong, it would give the remaining squad members a place to try and run to and hide out.

There's also the Isolon Fist's training. They are trained to fight predators. Taught from a 100+ years of obvserations and research done on Felaryan predators. They know their abilities, and they know how predators typically move and hunt.

Im not saying there won't be casualties, but I think you're severely overestimating the predators' chances against an organized, and well-equipped human force. A human force that is fighting right in their own backyard.

Quote :

that would greatly offset any theorical gains

The gains are hardly theoretical.

- Practical: Keeping predators from setting up shop near Negav or Nekomural allows for easy travel between the two places, letting the Nekomuran tribute be collected, and their Eye recharged reliably. If you cannot leave either of those places, their Eyes become a prison.

- Economic: The Negavian government makes most of its money through offworld trade, but nearly all of the local businesses (shops, merchants, restaurants, taverns, inns, etc) make their money off of the adventurers coming in from offworld. In order for word of Felarya's treasures to make it offworld and bring in more adventurers, at least SOME of the adventurers need to make it out of the city, to their destination and back. If it gets to the point where no one can step outside of the city without getting eaten, then the adventurers will stop coming. They'll go to some other alien world. Then the Negavian economy crashes.

- Political/social: One of the biggest things about Negav is that it is a bastion of humanity, in a death-world. If more and more predators come to live outside the city without any consequences, it will make the Magiocrats look weak. The Isolon Fist, actively chasing off any preds that try to set up shop is a media goldmine. It shows the Negavians that the Magiocrats are ACTIVELY working to keep the city and its surrounding area safe. It would make the whole city feel safer, like they are fighting back against the jungle, instead of hiding in a bubble and hoping the jungle will forget about them.

Quote :

If I was a magiocrat in charge of expanding the area of safety of Negav I wouldn't order patrols in the jungle that would disappear every few days. Instead, I woul push the council to agree to build a couple of smaller eyes around Negav.

Once again, I think you're underestimating the Fist. If I were a Magiocrat lobbying for more Eye's to be built, I would be sure the opposition knew about every single Isolon Fist member that died in the line of duty out there. But still, considering the assets and training available, I really think you're giving the preds too much credit. Against any other group, I'd say you're right. But I just can't agree with you on this when I compare what the Fist has, to what a predator moving into the area would have.

Quote :

And if I was a giant naga hearing about this region being patrolled by groups of armed humans, well within my range, in the opposite of trying to avoid them I would think it's a nice opportunity and I would come prepared, with a plan. Hell I could even call a friend or two in order to set a nice little ambush.

Predators aren't stupid. It isn't like the Fist is giving the preds they send away a pat on the wrist. They're wounding them, maiming them, nearly killing them. These predators would return to the forest with horror stories. Predators are very calculating, I doubt many of them would think a couple human snacks is worth getting seriously injured or dying.

Once again though, aerial reconnaissance. Give a Harpy or a Jetbike pilot a pair of thermal goggles, and they'd even be able to see through the trees.

I do think that the above situation is possible, but it would only work once. Once an Isolon Fist party is taken down by a mulit-pred ambush, things are going to get very bad. Multiple squads would be deployed, every Harpy and Jetbike would be out looking for them, and when they are found, they WOULD be killed. Hell, if they're grouped together and a scout finds them, the guns could be brought to bear, and all of them would be killed at the same time.

Quote :

But I agree with Karbo, these predators have friends, If the Isolon Fist started making trouble too far outside the eye's range they are going to get squished.

See above post. Also, I was never talking about them going deep into the jungle and chasing off preds. That would be stupid. Im just talking about keeping the northern border of Negav secure. Up to Nekomura, and then east a ways. It isn't like they're going into the Tolmeshal Forest. They're a defensive force, defending THEIR land, and their people from predator incursions.

Quote :

They wouldn't go that far outside the Eye's range, only JUST enough to ensure there wasn't something camping out there for an easy meal.

Pretty much, yeah. We're only talking a few miles here. Even if we limit their patrol area to 20-30 miles from the Eye's border (honestly, I'd probably bump that distance up), that is still a TINY area to a pred (who can easily move 90mph). All they're doing is creating a buffer between where the Eye's effect ends, and where the wilderness begins.

Isn't the purpose of creating the perimeter already covered by the eye? I mean these are intelligent predators, if they want to avoid patrols they will just back up a little, then what? You extend the patrol perimeter? What Karbo is saying that consistent patrols outside the safety of the eye is going to end badly...

"Hey look, this group of tasties come through here all the time on a consistent basis..."

That's a recipe for a disaster.

The Fist may go to the edge of the eye if they hear a pred has been camping outside the eye's perimeter, but I think patrols just seem.....not smart.

Not to mention you could always be within the perimeter and order artillery strikes just as well.

I do agree that their entry is anemic and desperately needs more meat. All it says is that they're the magiocrats personal fighting force and that policing is not their primary job. So... what? Are they the army? They can't be the army since Negav is way too small. Are they the special forces? If that's the case, what tasks would normally ask for their expertise and power? Their entry says none of that.

Sorry for jumping in without reading all the posts, but from what I've glanced at I gather that there's a need for a patrol while minimizing the loss of valuable Fists. Isn't there a group of mages, soldiers, or mercenaries that can handle that? If the Fist must be utilized, then is there a division of the Fist that's just a cut below the elite members that can be tasked with border patrol?

Quote :

Isn't the purpose of creating the perimeter already covered by the eye?

Paritally. Its a lot better down in the south, since the range is big enough to form The Commons. But in the North, because if the Motamo River, the range ends a relatively short distance after the bridge. There's a huge gap between Negav and Nekomura to the Northwest, and then a forested area to the Northeast. Considering the fact that the North gate is the main entrance and exit that adventurers and explorers would be using, and its inevitable that preds would try to come down and take advantage of it.

I think its best to think of the Eye as one line of defense, but it would be foolish to make it the only one. Negav shouldn't be passive, they shouldn't be hiding and hoping the big, mean preds go away. It sends a bad image, and takes away some of that proud, tough charm that Negav has.

Quote :

I mean these are intelligent predators, if they want to avoid patrols they will just back up a little, then what?

Then they are outside of the buffer-zone and the patrols achieved their goals? As soon as the pred pokes back in to find food, they are a potential target again though.

Quote :

What Karbo is saying that consistent patrols outside the safety of the eye is going to end badly...

The actual ground forces are a reactionary force. You thought they'd be patrolling along the ground? That WOULD be stupid, and cause casualties. Oh, nononono. The active patrolling would be done by Harpies and Jetbikes, preferrably with thermal goggles that allow them to see heat signatures through the trees. When they find something, THEN the ground forces would be called in to deal with it. As long as you control the air, then almost nothing can sneak up on you.

Patrolling on the ground, lol that would be a terrible idea. Nagas can move at over 100+ miles per hour.

I just don't see why you want to patrol a huge circle outside the eye's influence. If you want to keep the road to Nekomura safe, patrol those skies. People traveling further out will eventually reach an unsecured area anyway.... what exactly are you gaining?

Scouts on the fringes would seem like easy pickings for aerial predators.

Black Aquila wrote:

Karbo, I apologize and I mean no disrespect, but I have to call BULLSHIT on this.

The thinking here isn't that the Fist is some army that marches off into the jungles to kill all Predators and expand Negav, rather, their job is to secure the already establish perimeter by patrolling it and harrasing any Predators that linger too close for comfort.

They wouldn't go that far outside the Eye's range, only JUST enough to ensure there wasn't something camping out there for an easy meal.

Cliff showed me a map of what he had in mind and this zone of interventon was well outside the Eye range. It was even bordering into the grove of carnivorous plants.
And I'm saying that is an irrealistic thing to do on any sort of regular basis. because it would lead to a steady flow of casualties accomplishing very little, with no end in sight.
Sorry if it looks "bullshit" to you.

Also keep in mind the current map is not up to scale. Negav would appear obviosuly much smaller than it is now with a whole "eyed" region around it.

rcs619 wrote:

These aren't just any group of humans bumbling through the forest. This is the Isolon Fist, look at what is at their disposal. Negav is the most organized and technologically advanced group of natives in known Felarya. Their battlemages have some of the most powerful magic around, and their soldiers are using offworld weaponry that is perfectly capable of maiming and killing a predator. They know their home region, and it is extensively mapped. Above all this though, they have intel, specifically aerial intel in the form of human-sized harpies and jetbikes. It would be incredibly difficult for anything to sneak up on them.

Indeed, and that's not even including what the Magiocrats might conscript to back them up, like military vehicles or even combat mecha.

Hell, I would be surprised if Negav didn't have a couple of Airships* equipped with enough artillery to level large swaths of forest.
*(I have dubbed these Yamato-class Gunships, created in the event there would be an Abyssal Tonorion invasion.)

rcs619 wrote:

Also, I don't see why the region outside of Negav couldn't be fortified. Perhaps a series of emergency shelters and/or escape tunnels. It wouldn't prevent casualties, but if a mission went wrong, it would give the remaining squad members a place to try and run to and hide out.

There's also the Isolon Fist's training. They are trained to fight predators. Taught from a 100+ years of obvserations and research done on Felaryan predators. They know their abilities, and they know how predators typically move and hunt.

Im not saying there won't be casualties, but I think you're severely overestimating the predators' chances against an organized, and well-equipped human force. A human force that is fighting right in their own backyard.

Yes, the idea that one of the most elite fighting forces on Felarya stands as much a chance as a recently reality-displaced National Guard unit is ludicrous.
Really, if anyone should know what they're doing, it's these guys.

rcs619 wrote:

The gains are hardly theoretical.

Gains nothing, I think something like this would probably be a necessity.
No smart military leader would simply rely on a deterrent like the Eye his enemy at bay, and would take steps to ensure against situations where it's effects are useless.

rcs619 wrote:

Once again, I think you're underestimating the Fist. If I were a Magiocrat lobbying for more Eye's to be built, I would be sure the opposition knew about every single Isolon Fist member that died in the line of duty out there. But still, considering the assets and training available, I really think you're giving the preds too much credit. Against any other group, I'd say you're right. But I just can't agree with you on this when I compare what the Fist has, to what a predator moving into the area would have.

Yeah, this does come across as Predator Favoritism.

rcs619 wrote:

Predators aren't stupid. It isn't like the Fist is giving the preds they send away a pat on the wrist. They're wounding them, maiming them, nearly killing them. These predators would return to the forest with horror stories. Predators are very calculating, I doubt many of them would think a couple human snacks is worth getting seriously injured or dying.

Once again though, aerial reconnaissance. Give a Harpy or a Jetbike pilot a pair of thermal goggles, and they'd even be able to see through the trees.

I do think that the above situation is possible, but it would only work once. Once an Isolon Fist party is taken down by a mulit-pred ambush, things are going to get very bad. Multiple squads would be deployed, every Harpy and Jetbike would be out looking for them, and when they are found, they WOULD be killed. Hell, if they're grouped together and a scout finds them, the guns could be brought to bear, and all of them would be killed at the same time.

Agreed, the whole point of this exercise is to make the area around Negav as unfavorable a hunting ground as possible.

Frack, with this in mind, the solders of the Fist probably do the same thing that I did with the Chick Jumpers: Rig themselves to explode in the event they're eaten.

rcs619 wrote:

Pretty much, yeah. We're only talking a few miles here. Even if we limit their patrol area to 20-30 miles from the Eye's border (honestly, I'd probably bump that distance up), that is still a TINY area to a pred (who can easily move 90mph). All they're doing is creating a buffer between where the Eye's effect ends, and where the wilderness begins.

Wow, 20-30 miles?

I thought that it'd be smaller then that... but the sizes involved do screw with the scales...

Grave wrote:

Isn't the purpose of creating the perimeter already covered by the eye? I mean these are intelligent predators, if they want to avoid patrols they will just back up a little, then what? You extend the patrol perimeter? What Karbo is saying that consistent patrols outside the safety of the eye is going to end badly...

The Eye establishes a perimeter, yes, but it doesn't secure one.
This is especially true seeing as how the effect of the Eye varies in intensity depending on the individual predator.

Therefore, patrolling it's edge not only enforces that this territory is unwelcoming to Giant Predators, it also allows Negav an early warning against those who the Eye is lessened or non-existent* in its effectiveness.

*(My Abyssal Tonorion invasion idea.)

rcs619 wrote:

I think its best to think of the Eye as one line of defense, but it would be foolish to make it the only one. Negav shouldn't be passive, they shouldn't be hiding and hoping the big, mean preds go away. It sends a bad image, and takes away some of that proud, tough charm that Negav has.

Indeed, when you are the larges bastion of Human Civilization on a Death World, you don't take any chances.

Karbo wrote:

Cliff showed me a map of what he had in mind and this zone of interventon was well outside the Eye range. It was even bordering into the grove of carnivorous plants.
And I'm saying that is an irrealistic thing to do on any sort of regular basis. because it would lead to a steady flow of casualties accomplishing very little, with no end in sight.
Sorry if it looks "bullshit" to you.

Also keep in mind the current map is not up to scale. Negav would appear obviosuly much smaller than it is now with a whole "eyed" region around it.

Well as I said before, the scales involved are a bit wonky.

Still, overestimating the patrol radius doesn't exclude the idea that there needs to be a patrol.

Grave wrote:

I just don't see why you want to patrol a huge circle outside the eye's influence. If you want to keep the road to Nekomura safe, patrol those skies. People traveling further out will eventually reach an unsecured area anyway.... what exactly are you gaining?

Scouts on the fringes would seem like easy pickings for aerial predators.

Jetbikes can outrun Harpies. If worst comes to worst, they could dive down below the treeline where a giant harpy couldn't fly, or try and lure them close enough to the city for AA guns or missile batteries to take out.

I really doubt any flying predators would chance coming anywhere close to Negav, considering the long range and one-hit kill potential of missiles and AA guns. If I were a harpy, I wold give Negav a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide berth.

As for what is gained, haven't you been paying attention? Its to keep predators from being able to abuse the range of the Eye, to move around without consequence and eat whoever they want, whenever they want. I know half the people around here tend to flip out whenever ANY idea comes up that involves humans being able to competently defend themselves (god forbid some people wanting to NOT get eaten), but this should be fairly simple to understand from a military and political standpoint.

Saying something is "an endless task" is not an excuse when it NEEDS to be done.

...and Im not saying that NO predators will get into that region and NO ONE will get eaten there. All Im saying is that the Isolon Fist would be actively trying to deter preds from doing that. Basically, the point is to make this risky for the preds to. Make them put their lives in as much danger being close to Negav, as humans leaving Negav.



There, these are the areas that would need to be patrolled. When you have jetbikes and Harpies flying about, it really isn't THAT big.

What Cliff is saying, or if I'm trying to head for a compromise, is that it's not really an active patrol, but more like of an intervention.

Let's put it with this scenario. The aformentioned Harpies are obviously the perfect scout since, they're in the air and most aerial predators hunt around the mountains because the jungle is a huge hinderance for them, so they're safe from the surface predators. With that, they can simply report to someone in charge of security that they spotted a giant Pantaur (no disrespect to Tara) around the gap where Nekomura is. More intelligence gathering is made to see if he or she (must include males in this manless world) is just passing by or if he or she is using the place as a hunting ground. If the former is reported, they let him or her be. If the latter is reported, then they dispatch a squad to get him or her away from the route.

Sean Okotami wrote:

What Cliff is saying, or if I'm trying to head for a compromise, is that it's not really an active patrol, but more like of an intervention.

Let's put it with this scenario. The aformentioned Harpies are obviously the perfect scout since, they're in the air and most aerial predators hunt around the mountains because the jungle is a huge hinderance for them, so they're safe from the surface predators. With that, they can simply report to someone in charge of security that they spotted a giant Pantaur (no disrespect to Tara) around the gap where Nekomura is. More intelligence gathering is made to see if he or she (must include males in this manless world) is just passing by or if he or she is using the place as a hunting ground. If the former is reported, they let him or her be. If the latter is reported, then they dispatch a squad to get him or her away from the route.

That is essentially what Im proposing. The aerial scouts, in the form of Harpies and Jetbikes, are the ones doing the patrolling. If they see a giant pred lurking about, or a giant dangerous beast, it gets reported and a ground team gets sent out to remove it. It isn't like they're going around killing shit left and right. They're just responding to unwanted trespassing into their territory.

You would also need to try and keep the area secure so that the carnivorous plant disposal teams can move around. Getting rid of those things would probably be slow, tedious and dangerous. But it has to be done, or they could spread everywhere.

rcs619 wrote:

There, these are the areas that would need to be patrolled. When you have jetbikes and Harpies flying about, it really isn't THAT big.

well the danger zone sounds like a wise idea, but let's narrow the patrol area to be more focused on the roads rather then the huge jungle areas. I mean, there's already an established path for adventurers to take between Negav and Nekomara, so why would someone be dumb enough to leave the path when they are outside of the eye's influence if they aren't fully prepared for a fight with a pred? I mean fist members should do their best to keep the roads safe, and a short area around it, but any further is just a waste of time and resources.

Quote :

well the danger zone sounds like a wise idea, but let's narrow the patrol area to be more focused on the roads rather then the huge jungle areas. I mean, there's already an established path for adventurers to take between Negav and Nekomara, so why would someone be dumb enough to leave the path when they are outside of the eye's influence if they aren't fully prepared for a fight with a pred? I mean fist members should do their best to keep the roads safe, and a short area around it, but any further is just a waste of time and resources.

The predators are not going to be living on the roads. Nagas can move at over 100mph. If one moves in, its going to set up several miles beyond the Eye, and off of the roads, and only move in closer to try and find something to eat. Predators can cover large areas of land, thanks to their size.That is why patrolling the forested areas is so important. That is where the predators are actually going to be hiding.

All it would take is a group of jetbike pilots or harpies, preferrably with thermal goggles so they can see through the foiliage. It wouldn't be that hard.

All of that sounds like a decent proposal so far.

I do have one question though. Karbo said that the effects of the Eye would be different to all predators. How so exactly? Are there some that would be immune to the eye, or would the eye cause some predators to keel over in pain?

Or is it basically just "differing levels of deterrance"?