Story links on the wiki

i'm only saying this because my gf says it sometimes when we get into fights - so it really annoys me: TL;DR - sorry, but i dont feel that attitude has any place on a thread where there's actually a decent (no name calling or flaming) debate going on. Saying that near the start of one's post displays a strong sense of snarkiness and simple mindedness. I'm not calling anyone that - it's just how it makes you come off. I like reading longer posts because generally there's alot of thought in MOST, not all.

Contrary to that, i still feel like this thread has derailed in a most unhealthy way. It feels like that whole have vs. havenot thing that goes on in real life and frankly, anyone thoughtful enough to write and continue writing should be above that sort of thing. I have to agree, that writing in the world of felarya should be fun and something you do for fun - not for recognition. I also agree that posting thoughtful comments and such also helps, but in reading recent posts.. here's something else that came to me: Good old fashioned word of mouth.

Moreso than the wiki, and even the group - i've found many of the people i look foward to reading things from, Via positives by others in their own journals. That's how i found Frenchsnack for one - and timing2 - i believe it was through asuroth, might have been through someone else...but thats beside the point. Just spreading the word of a good writer can do volumes more than a simple link in the wiki if attention is all you're looking for. It's just like getting a nascar driver to walk up and say your car is fast - guess what, people are going to be curious now, just because it's been pointed out. I do this mainly for people who i commission (i usually tell everyone to go throw money at them ). I dont see why the same thing wouldn't work for writers-and i think it'll help others maybe move towards cannon abit faster if that's what they're looking for.

Also- as mentioned... quality work is a BIG help in one's quest. If i still wrote like i did 5 years ago... dear god i wouldn't even read what i write anymore.

wait wait wait, is this pretty much only posting links to stories that are canon to the characters and to Felarya itself, and pretty much making only the people with export talent get their work on the wiki while other people don't get their stories? That sounds highly unfair to me

Solomon wrote:

wait wait wait, is this pretty much only posting links to stories that are canon to the characters and to Felarya itself, and pretty much making only the people with export talent get their work on the wiki while other people don't get their stories? That sounds highly unfair to me

Currently, nobody has links to their stories on the wiki. If we want to introduce such links, they need to be relevant to the content of the wiki. This is not simply about giving greater visibility to writers; it's also about enabling visitors to the wiki to find out more about the characters (and later hopefully species, settings, etc...) by seeing them in stories.

The wiki is a guide to canon. It's not a repository to all manner of random stories. We have the forum, and the dA Felary group, for that.

French snack wrote:

Currently, nobody has links to their stories on the wiki. If we want to introduce such links, they need to be relevant to the content of the wiki. This is not simply about giving greater visibility to writers; it's also about enabling visitors to the wiki to find out more about the characters (and later hopefully species, settings, etc...) by seeing them in stories.

The wiki is a guide to canon. It's not a repository to all manner of random stories. We have the forum, and the dA Felary group, for that.

Take another look. Characters like Seliky and Kaiten have links to stories and work done by their creators and other people. As long as the work fits with the creator's vision of the character then it'll go up there I think. I'm surprised, I thought you were one of the people who edit the wiki, FS.

To be honest, there's tons of unfairness regarding your work vs other people's work. The community was much smaller way back in the day, and so those who are still around from that time have their characters in a permament spotlight because there's so much fame regarding them. If you want everyone to know about your character, you have to present it with someone or something that everybody knows, and you have to do it where everyone will see it. Chance are then they wont even pay attention to your character, they'll pay attention to the famous one that they know. Is it unfair? Yes, but if you want to be known for something, you have to forcefully put yourself in league with them. That's just how it works. A small business wont get known if they dont advertise themselves or relate their product to a well known one, and then say how it's better.

This world isn't some utopia. You can't be innocent or naive. This isn't some anime, and if you want to get to where you want, you have to accept that. It's cruel but its true.

Please, I mean think about it, people like Pendragon, Chuck, Myself, along with many others (I dont want to spend a while looking for them all) who have characters that have been written about for years. There's still not much of a spotlight on them. Pen and Chuck have released far more stories, and in Chuck's case, quality pictures depicting their characters that forcefully put themselves in up with others who are well known. I'm sure they want everyone to know about their characters, and love them just as their creators do, the same is true for me, and especially because when a character is canonized it's important to keep writing about them even after that moment. Which I'm sure is a non issue for a lot of us writers. However, they don't complain about it, and we shouldn't either.

That be all. I hope this clears stuff up. I'm sure people will want to argue this, but there's a hard truth that not everyone likes that we just have to put up with - and accept.

Bael, I guarantee you that more people look at the Felarya group than look at the wiki. ....Some of the stories in the group proves that point for me =P

If you want maximum exposure, the group is your best bet. Dozens of people will see your work as soon as it is posted.

Quote :

Yes, but if you want to be known for something, you have to forcefully put yourself in league with them. That's just how it works. A small business wont get known if they dont advertise themselves or relate their product to a well known one, and then say how it's better.

I cannot even begin to describe how many different kinds of wrong that is. This is a fun internet hobby, not a business.

But that isn't even the main point. If you are writing just to GET attention, you are doing it for the wrong reason. You don't "force" your way into people's minds by comparing yourself to someone elses work and/or trying to push them aside for your gain. That isn't just rude to the other person involved, it's more likely to drive people away from you and get you a reputation as an attention-whore.

Write what you want to write. Write it how you want to write it. What matters is that YOU enjoy your work. If you enjoy what you are doing, other people can tell, and other people will enjoy your work. This isn't some kind of competition, this isn't some kind of popularity context, it's a fun internet hobby. The only one of us who should be pimping out his work to every place he can is Karbo, and that's because he's trying to sell a product with 100's of hours invested into it.

Just have fun. Submit it to the group. Show other people your work here and there. That's fine. If you try to go on a "I DESERVE TO BE POPULAR TOO! LOOK AT MY WORK!" campaign, you're just going to come out looking bad. Do your best, put it out there, and let people choose to come to you.

My two cents:

I think the idea that new writers should first write stories prominently featuring canon characters just so their characters can be seen, is flawed. When a new writer comes to Felarya and wants to write a story in this universe, most of the time they create their own characters. Then they write stories about their characters. These stories predominantly focus on the writer's characters, not the canon characters. That's reality. That's what's been going on and will continue to go on. To simply say to those writers: you must use canon characters predominantly in your stories to be recognized, is a false premise.

Personally, I don't plan on using any canon characters in my stories or write a story focused on a canon character unless I'm asked too. Nor will I do that just so my characters can be accepted more. There is too much hassle in trying to get permission and depicting the character the way the character's creator wants, for me to do it on my own. I'm not against including other people's characters in my stories, its just that I'm not going out of my way to do it. (If you want a character to appear in my story by all means contact me.)

Also, what's not being said here is this is an ego thing. Basically this thread is implying (Whether FS wanted to or not) that we should be focusing less on our own characters and more on those few that got accepted into the canon.

Finally, I think this thread is sort of in bad taste. There are a lot of writers here who barely get any recognition (even within this forum) and are now either being told to or implied that they need to elevate the canon characters over their own just so they can be "seen."

Like I said, just my two cents.

Quote :

I think the idea that new writers should first write stories prominently featuring canon characters just so their characters can be seen, is flawed. When a new writer comes to Felarya and wants to write a story in this universe, most of the time they create their own characters. Then they write stories about their characters. These stories predominantly focus on the writer's characters, not the canon characters. That's reality. That's what's been going on and will continue to go on. To simply say to those writers: you must use canon characters predominantly in your stories to be recognized, is a false premise.

Telling people they need to use canon characters is a terrible idea.

Let's be honest, most people can't get other people's characters right. Look at all the out-of-character Crisises, Annas, and more running around DA. Among others.

The best thing you can do is write about your own characters. With canon characters, there are restraints. There are set locations, set personalities, views and so on, and a lot of times these conflict with what the other person wants to do (and more than a few people ignore that and press on anyway, causing the canon characters to behave unlike themselves). Someone new to the setting, hell, even someone who's been around for a while... the best way to tell the story YOU want to tell is to use your own characters.

I don't even think cameos from canon characters should be used that much. Cameos should be used much more sparingly and only when needed or when it benefits the story. Don't pull Crisis out of nowhere to have her do and contribute nothing, for example. Or worse, to make your character look "cooler" at the canon character's expense.

Write what you want to write, how you want to write it, so long as YOU are happy with YOUR work. That's just how I've always felt it should be. At the end of the day, the only person's opinion who matters is your own, and if you're enjoying yourself others will too. Who cares if your stuff winds up popular or not? Enjoy what you do, and try to share it with your friends along the way. If you want exposure, submit to the group. It is the thing that the most people will be watching. If you want double-attention, put up a copy on the forum too. Beyond that, just focus on doing your best and enjoying yourself.

Bael said that the people who are still around from back in the day have their characters in a permanent spotlight because there's so much fame regarding them.

This is correct. But it is worth knowing why this is the case.

Back "in the day," the community was much smaller, as Bael said. I feel it necessary to add that it was also more of a community. People talked to each other more. Ideas spread faster, information got around quicker.

Back then, if someone read a good story, they'd link it to the people they talked to, who would link it to people they talked to, etc. Pretty soon, it would have spread and everyone would have heard about it.

That doesn't happen now, because people don't talk to each other anywhere near as much.
The community is fragmented now. Of course the people who were around pre-fragmentation are more well known.
Remember though; the value of a compliment from someone who compliments everything, no matter the quality. It's not worth much. Even when there are scores of them doing the same, it still amounts to little.

What isn't a waste of time is writing well and receiving the compliments of people you know and/or respect.
If you want to be popular, go and talk to people and get to know them, don't try to force things on them. But most importantly, listen. People will have good, valid input. I have seen people ask for critique and then throw it back in the critiquer's face when they received it.
Not only is that a slap in the face for the critiquer, other people are going to see that and lose respect for that person, because they can't exert the emotional control required to emotionally detach themselves from their work and analyze their work from a more objective viewpoint.


That aside; what brothejr said is correct. The idea that new writers should first write stories prominently featuring canon characters just so their characters can be seen, is flawed.

People should read stories on the merits of the main character and plot, not because there's a whole lot of cameos by other characters.
Not only does it take away attention from the writer's own characters, it implies that the writer isn't confident enough in their own ability to write an engaging story and characters, so they try to prop up their story with popular canon ones.

Well if the noob (me) may express an opinion

I think to get your work to be noticed, rather than putting in well known characters, just study those characrters and work out why they were popular to begin with. then take the bits you think worked and do what you feel that would improve them. Just simple design thoery really.

I think you also have to think of your own content in terms of function, really think what are you saying with it and work out who exactly are you tryin to attract with it. I haven't been here for even a week yet, and yet it's very clear to me that this site has different people with different tastes. So finding your own niche and connecting with the people that would suit it would be the more practical way of getting attention.

just thought I would share my thoughts on the subject anyways

Archmage_Bael wrote:

Take another look. Characters like Seliky and Kaiten have links to stories and work done by their creators and other people. As long as the work fits with the creator's vision of the character then it'll go up there I think. I'm surprised, I thought you were one of the people who edit the wiki, FS.

Um, I'm well aware of that. I was the one who put those links there on the Seliky and Kaiten pages. That's my point. I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying, since you appear to be trying to contradict me by agreeing with me.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

? Yes, but if you want to be known for something, you have to forcefully put yourself in league with them. That's just how it works. A small business wont get known if they dont advertise themselves or relate their product to a well known one, and then say how it's better.

This world isn't some utopia. You can't be innocent or naive. This isn't some anime, and if you want to get to where you want, you have to accept that. It's cruel but its true.

Please, I mean think about it, people like Pendragon, Chuck, Myself, along with many others (I dont want to spend a while looking for them all) who have characters that have been written about for years. There's still not much of a spotlight on them. Pen and Chuck have released far more stories, and in Chuck's case, quality pictures depicting their characters that forcefully put themselves in up with others who are well known. I'm sure they want everyone to know about their characters, and love them just as their creators do, the same is true for me, and especially because when a character is canonized it's important to keep writing about them even after that moment. Which I'm sure is a non issue for a lot of us writers. However, they don't complain about it, and we shouldn't either.

That be all. I hope this clears stuff up. I'm sure people will want to argue this, but there's a hard truth that not everyone likes that we just have to put up with - and accept.

I really don't want to get involved with this argument. I know it was not your intention, but reading this hasn't put me in the best of moods. I want to be honest, can't really say drawing makes me happy.

What I can say is that I DO NOT draw for ATTENTION... That is the last thing on my mind and I think my art speaks for itself. I didn't improve this fast with my art and got to where I am today (even if I don't recognize my skill) because I was doing it for attention...this has really been bothering me and I want to get that point through...

I've been biting my tongue on the matter for a few days now but seeing Claire post has encouraged me to speak up. I completely understand the desire people have to make their characters more visible but I think it's important to remember where becoming focused on attention and recognition can lead. It's a slippery slope, I think. Like Claire said, he is not attention grabbing or seeking validation from others; that's the best way to be. It's not easy, but putting quality and enjoyment of work above all else will ensure that we stay on the path to improvement, not only at our craft but as human beings. Those whose priority is popularity will fall short of their potential in all facets of life at the end, I believe. So keep toiling away, try to keep your mind off of things like feedback (positive and negative) and popularity; just have fun, and be patient.

*sigh* Here we go again...

Archmage_Bael wrote:

(...)The community was much smaller way back in the day, and so those who are still around from that time have their characters in a permament spotlight because there's so much fame regarding them.

You should specifiy who you are talkinb about. I'e been around for quite a while and as you can see, I'm better defined as an underdog. So not every person involved in the early days 'when the community was small' is highly visible. Also, this seems a bit contradictory looking at how you later mention people who have been around for years and, you say, aren't that well known.

Archmage_Bael wrote:

If you want everyone to know about your character, you have to present it with someone or something that everybody knows, and you have to do it where everyone will see it. Chance are then they wont even pay attention to your character, they'll pay attention to the famous one that they know. Is it unfair? Yes, but if you want to be known for something, you have to forcefully put yourself in league with them. That's just how it works.(...)

I know this isn't an utopia, but I'll tell you one thing: if I want my stories to impress and my characters to be recognised, the least I'd do is presenting them along with a well established character. Why? Because I want to show my own work, to make sure I can do this by mself and not depending on the celebrity of a character or a member of this community.

That's why I'm proud of myself when people recognise my characters while I haven't resorted to use famous ones to write my stories, even if I'm not 'looking for popularity'. Because that means that I'm doing well. Sure, Kyria isn't a Jade, for example, but if this character has some charm and people like her, well, that means I did a good job giving birth to her. Even if I don't have a legion of fans behind me, a job well done is better for me than being popular.

Sure, for some it'll be easier if their character appears with, let's say, Crisis in a story. But as I said not long ago, I'd go against using other people's characters because I don't want to screw them - this includes famous and not-so-famous characters, I have due respect to the members of this community to do badly with their characters. Sure, some little mentions, but not 'this character will appear because he/she is famous and I want your attention pretty please'.

Now go on and call me chicken or say that I don't want myself to be known and just dig my own grave. Felarya is no popularity contest.

Simple and clear: write and have fun. Develop your stories and characters the way you want, with respect to the setting. Because sure, you can use others' characters, but in the end, what you do is your work, your characters are yours and if you have fun doing a well-done job, that's one big reward popularity cannot compare to.