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+4dragon808tr Shady Knight Stabs Darth_Nergal 8 posters | Author | Message |
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Darth_Nergal Hero
Posts : 1175 Join date : 2012-06-05 Age : 32 Location : Someplace north Tonorian Hive, south of the Chordoni Waterfall, east of the Kuwuni bridge, and west of the Lataran Temple
| Subject: Tiny heights Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:45 pm | |
| So, I found something rather cool, and if you checked out the Off Topic you might have seen it. Its a small height comparison tool. http://www.mrinitialman.com/OddsEnds/Sizes/sizes.html Sure its not perfect, but it does give an excellent sense of scale. Now go compare the heights of a neera, which are usually between 2-3 inches tall, with that of a neko, which seem to be comparable to humans in pictures, so I'd say between 4-6 feet tall on average. Compare the two heights and I think you'll see where I'm going with this.
Neera heights and other tinies need to have their sizes increased just a bit, especially if they're eaten as a food source. Sure they're not aalways on the menu, but when a neko finds them, they tend to become cat food. Plus Nekos are generally seen as being able to eat a couple of neera, and be satisfied. Heck, a tribe of neera can be used to fill a tribe of nekos. But at that size it just doesn't make sense. Now I know, its not a perfect size measurement, but it still gives a good idea of the size differences.
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| | | Stabs Moderator
Posts : 1875 Join date : 2009-10-15 Age : 34 Location : The Coil, Miragia
| Subject: Re: Tiny heights Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:02 pm | |
| I've thought about it, and what I came up with was that it's something we'll just have to live with.
Look at it this way. Let's say a 75 kg human (Yes, I'm using metric) measures six feet (Yes, I'm using Imperial), and her tiny counterpart measures three inches (shut up). So it's 1/24 times the height, and the third power of that in weight scaling down. 13284 times lighter. That's 5.4 grams. Even if they were 100% fat, they'd barely carry 49 calories (they'd actually be closer to 21). Ms. X should be able to eat a hundred of those in a 2000 kcal diet.
But! Tinies aren't simply supposed to be something you eat. They're supposed to be something you swallow whole even if it struggles to the bitter end, and you don't need to be a fish, nor have a specially elastic throat for that. Ms. X is a normal human who just happens to eat people because she's a jerk.
So if you want to be realistic, rather than assuming tinies should be bigger, we could just say Felaryans follow unreasonable diets. :B I mean, seriously, look at Crisis, she's rail-thin, no wonder she's hungry enough to eat all of us. | |
| | | Shady Knight Lord of the Elements
Posts : 4580 Join date : 2008-01-20 Age : 34
| Subject: Re: Tiny heights Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:29 pm | |
| Yeah, there has been some sort of disconnect between how much predators eat and how much they really need to. I think the consensus is that Crisis is a big eater no matter what, like even if she was a human, which Karbo made a picture of what she'd look like if she was a normal human girl, she'd still be a big eater with an efficient metabolism that would no doubt make other girls of her age jealous. But, like with the personality of nagas, I think people took it at face value that she represented the everywoman naga of Felarya, even though her backstory demonstrates that she's probably among the least ordinary nagas in the region, and that predators always have a big appetite. It's largely unknown if predators have adapted to proportionally needing less food than humans to stay well-fed, you know in case of a bad hunt. I went with the idea that my naga character, Hierry, can eat a large prey and not need to eat again for about a month to make her a little bit more snake-like. Dryads I think it's more or less stated that they don't need to feed all that often since they partially get their nutrition from photosynthesis and probably the water in the soil, but that's about it as far as Felaryan predators are concerned.
Fairies, unsurprisingly, seem to be the oddball of the bunch in my opinion. Since they seem to be more omnivorous and settle down a bit more often than other predators, they probably have a larger appetite in general if they take advantage of agriculture and slightly more sedentary life. | |
| | | dragon808tr Survivor
Posts : 936 Join date : 2014-10-30
| Subject: Re: Tiny heights Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:27 pm | |
| Interesting. But Nekos might keep chickens or some easy meat around. Like feedimg a cat things other than meat | |
| | | jedi-explorer Felarya cartographer
Posts : 1474 Join date : 2011-12-06 Age : 36 Location : Fantasy Land ^_^
| Subject: Re: Tiny heights Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:10 pm | |
| Well I think allot of us older vorists, or at least more mature ones, know that the average Felaryan gal eats us like candy bars. they don't need to but that taste and wriggling is what they do it for. Smaller ones, like Nikita, may gobble us down cause it's necessary and nothing else is available but most just snack on us as a "guilty pleasure" Prinnydood has writen this allot I think and few other authors who bother to have their preds talk to their prey. Silver scales even brought it up I think. | |
| | | Ilceren Moderator
Posts : 677 Join date : 2012-05-10 Age : 33 Location : Spain
| Subject: Re: Tiny heights Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:20 am | |
| There is something wrong with your calculations, Stabs. Sure, they sound good (although I checked and you misplaced a number, it's 13824 instead of 13284 times smaller), but they still feel off somehow.
You say Neeras that are 3 inches high (7.6 cm) would weight 5.4 grams. Isn't that a fallacy by itself? Less than a gram per centimetre? Doesn't sound good. Generally speaking, a tiny is about as tall as the index or middle finger of its scaled-up counterpart. And generally fatter than a finger, too. And I can tell you a finger weights more than 5.4 grams.
My index finger is, let's say, about 7 cm tall (a bit less than 3 inches), 1.5 cm wide and 1.3 cm thick. My ruler lacks precision, but that should do it, we're going to round things a lot anyway. That amounts for a total of 13.65 cubic cm of volume. If we use the generally accepted estimation of human body density of 1.045 grams/cubic cm (which is supposed to ignore the air inside the body, as the reading of total weight would), we have that my finger weights 14.2 grams, which is nearly three times what you say a tiny would weight being taller and probably wider than my finger on average. If we go by your calculations on calories, let's say they are 60 kcal each now that they are almost three times as big, you'd need 33 tinies for a 2000 kcal diet, which makes it far more reasonable now.
The issue here, is why the theoretical scale-down calculations differ so greatly from the body density ones. | |
| | | Stabs Moderator
Posts : 1875 Join date : 2009-10-15 Age : 34 Location : The Coil, Miragia
| Subject: Re: Tiny heights Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:32 am | |
| Not... quite, Ilceren. If your finger is a rectangular prism, that would be the case.
But if we count it as a cylinder, its volume would be pi times lesser radius times greater radius times length. Instead, you get 10.42 cubic centimeters... to start with. Also, your body mass calculations do have to include empty volume, because the density calculation does not take it into account, and that volume does not contribute to your weight.
Your lungs, for instance, can carry up to six litres of air. What does this mean? This means 6/13824 litres (6000/13824 cc) of the tiny's mass, approximately, do not contribute to weight either.
And then there's the part about us having a shape that's not a filled, round cylinder. An estimate like yours gives us a ballpark approximation, but anything other than the order of magnitude isn't gonna be very exact. Try scaling up your finger to human size now, and check what your calculations say. | |
| | | Ilceren Moderator
Posts : 677 Join date : 2012-05-10 Age : 33 Location : Spain
| Subject: Re: Tiny heights Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:16 am | |
| Well, for my calculations I used the middle phalanx of my finger and even took out a few fractions of centimetre out in order to rule out the errors and make up for the thickening towards the base of the finger with the thinning towards the tip of the finger. Same could be done with a human body if you use the measure of the waist or possibly even the lower end of the ribcage, the excess of the other parts of the trunk and the arms being roughly enough to make up for the defects in the neck-head and the legs.
As for the lungs and empty space error incurred by the density calculation, remember filling the lungs completely also results in gaining volume, since the ribcage expands, making us able to discard part of that lung air you wanted to count. Still, if it makes you happy, we could use the salty water density (around 1.027 grams/cubic centimetre) as a middle point, since a person with their lungs almost empty sinks in salt water, and floats with their lungs full. Not that it makes such a big difference with small volumes.
Let's do the exercise you suggest, though. We have a (roughly) 7x1.5x1.3 cm finger. Multiplied by 24, it becomes a 168x36x31.2 cm finger. Using your cylindric volume calculations, it gives us a volume of 148202.75 cubic cm and the salt water density turns it into 152.2 Kg. Seems a bit too much, you are right, but let's make one last test to make sure. Taking out my ruler (an imprecise instrument), measuring myself around the waist gives us 186x32x24 cm, which turns up a result of 115.22 Kg, roughly two times my actual weight.
It seems my assumptions were proven wrong, volume is something not to be trifled with. But it's good to know which calculations are right in order to build on top of them and reach further conclusions. Stabs, you have my thanks.
Last edited by Ilceren on Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:42 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Oh-so-annoying spelling mistakes) | |
| | | DarkOne Survivor
Posts : 967 Join date : 2012-04-27 Age : 39 Location : Smart predators don't reveal their positions
| Subject: Re: Tiny heights Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:20 am | |
| I highly question the need to rationalise a narrative characteristic that by it's very nature requires some suspension of disbelief. | |
| | | Grave Marauder of the deep jungle
Posts : 387 Join date : 2009-11-01
| Subject: Re: Tiny heights Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:32 am | |
| Everything seems to check out to me, if tinies were any bigger I'd have a hard time beleiving the swallowed whole thing, and even now you have to take it with a grain of salt.
*Begins to feel salt being sprinkled on his head*
O_O | |
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