Do humans suck?

Humans are pretty good at adapting, I'll admit. Darn tenacious humans. Like the roaches and the candy of Felarya at the same time, eh?

Shame on them, shame on us. And yet, when the shame is everyone's, the shame is no ones.. or is it? I think that there are just enough (bad) people here on Earth that the population as a whole is corrupted. It's a shame, really.

I still want to know how we're so bad. Most (If not all) of the bad things we do are mimicked in the Animal Kingdom, or would be if they were given the capability. The only difference is the reason we sometimes give for the actions.

The problem is that we're used to having lived on a planet where we are the dominant species. This was achieved by controlling a few aspects of nature (agriculture), allowing us to breed animals and grow crops for food. We sheltered ourselves from what we could not control (houses, shelters). In essence, we removed ourselves from the food chain; after all, if we can grow our own food and live in our own shelters, what need have we to hunt and gather? The trade-off is that our ability to deal with unpredictability and high stress has declined; part of military training is re-learning those ancient skills.

The War of the Worlds, by H.G. Wells, is ostensibly about a Martian invasion. Truth be told, the Martians themselves are modeled on humanity. The novel was inspired by a conversation the author had with a close friend. The time the novel was written-the late 1890's-the British Empire was at a high point of imperial expansion. Wells's friend was talking about the British conquest of Tasmania, and the massacre of the native peoples: "What a frightful disaster for the Tasmanians!", as his friend put it. It was this conversation that inspired The War of the Worlds.

Just as the Tasmanians were "lowly savages" to the British, the British (indeed all humanity) were "lowly savages" to the Martians-basically, Well's was saying "Try being the lowly savage for a change, see how you like it!" Just as the Maxims and cannons made short work of the Tasmanians spears and arrows, the Martian Heat Ray and Black Smoke made short work of England's cannons and Maxims. However, the Martians succumbed to Earth's diseases, as we all know; a sort of role reversal, as it is usually the natives who succumb to the invaders diseases.

When the Martians invaded Earth, they were essentially doing what the British Empire was doing at the time; expanding their territory beyond their borders. True, Mars was a dying world, and they were trying to survive; however, Venus was also an option. (keep in mind, they didn't know what we knew about the planets-this was the 1890's) Ergo, mere territorial expansion was also a motivation.

However, Wells's most important point is summarized in this passage "The Martians were entirely powerful...and entirely vulnerable." On their own world, just like us, they got to a point where they could drop out of the food chain. Eventually, they stamped it out all together-however, their minds and bodies atrophied in their ability to cope with nature and disease. We are essentially in the Martian position; true, stamping out nature completely is impossible-as it finds a way to live even within our cities. Even so, we don't have to struggle for our food and safety-if we had to, the majority of humanity would die out. At best, only a few hundred thousand would have what it takes.

In Felarya, that is exactly where we find ourselves. We are as the Martians; powerful within our cities and borders, but powerless outside them. Furthermore, we are cocky to assume survival is mere instinct; in humans especially, it is a conscious effort and a massive intellectual feat. After all, instinct won't tell you what plants and animals to eat; even Chimps have to learn this through trial and error.

How eloquently put.

GREGOLE wrote:

Quote :

the presense of magic allows crisis to sustain her massive bulk with less nourishment From what karbo said.

Not necessarrily. Yes, Felarya's a magic-rich environment, but it's also possible that the relative lack of food among the predators, despite their great size might have less to do with magic than it does with warped laws of physics.
It would explain how energetic, non-magical creatures like kenshas are able to survive at such great size with such massive energy expendeture without having to constantly eat.

It's possible that creatures like nagas, dridders and kenshas originate from some dimension where the laws of physics differ, and those laws have been carried over into Felarya. For instance, maybe dridders' home dimension treats them as though they're no bigger than ordinary spiders. It would explain how they can somehow support themselves on those spindley legs, and manage to stand up without sinking into the ground.

But this is all beside the point.

The original point was that Crisis doesn't directly rely on magic. Logic says neither do a lot of predators. That's one disadvantage they have when competing with humans.

Add to it, Felaryan humans tend to know magic as well...

Karbo said magic,
and it doesnt mean that you need to be magical, or else why would felaryan immortality affect non magic creatures.

Quote :

Karbo said magic,

Exact wording?

If I recall, he was still thinking on it when the subject came up.

lami wrote:

and it doesnt mean that you need to be magical, or else why would felaryan immortality affect non magic creatures.

Probably the same reason a Magic Fireball will liquify a non-magic rock.

Felarya has world spells that are woven into its fundamental physics. 'Nuff said.

The following may offend some people, but I don't care.

Delicious Kevin wrote:

Ok, this is a thread where you guys can continue the argument over weither or not humans are generally weak motherfuckers.

Want my take on the subject?

They are.

Personally, the human race disgusts me.

We are beasts, disgusting bastards who do as we wish with little thought for nature. We are not a humble species, we are a savage race, who kills for fun.

Now I do agree that with Delicious Kevin that some humans kill for fun, whereas animals never kill for fun, only to feed or defend themselves. Examples of humans killing for fun:

1. Anyone who has killed an insect or small animal while laughing or smiling with satisfaction while doing it, or while doing a dare for someone else. I have seen many of these accidentally, just look up some of them on Youtube. I know for a fact that many people kill insects for fun, I have seen it done often. I have also seen people kill squirrels and mice for fun, especially if you give someone a BB gun.

2. Anyone who hunts animals only for their trophies, and discards the rest of the body. Some hunters do not eat the animals they kill, they only use their heads to add to their collection of "achievements" on their wall at home. What kind of "acheivement" is there in killing an defenseless animal with a gun? Many animals are defenseless compared to the power of a gun, it isn't a fair fight at all. Hunters who kill only for trophies are essentially killing for their own enjoyment, whick is indeed sickening.

There are many humans in this world that do these things, and it disgusts me. I am only agreeing with Delicious Kevin that all humans that kill for fun suck. Those kind of humans definitely suck. I am not trying to start a fight with anyone, but I fully agree with Delicious Kevin that some humans suck because they kill for fun.

As for myself, there a a myriad of things I've done wrong in my life, but killing for fun is not one of them. It disgusts me.

P.S. In case anyone says to me, "Well why do you like Felarya so much! There's plenty of killing in Felarya!"

The difference between Felarya and people that kill for fun is that the Nagas and other preds kill for food, not necessarily for fun. They just so happen to have fun while eating, which I can see nothing wrong with. I have fun while eating too!!!

beefy wrote:

whereas animals never kill for fun,

Cat, nest of rabbits and babies, slaughtered them all. Ate not a single one of them.

Very first example I could come up with. Heck, I remember the one time we found a baby rabbit the cat literally flayed and then left where it was after growing bored. Said baby rabbit was still alive, at the time.

Quote :

1. Anyone who has killed an insect or small animal while laughing or smiling with satisfaction while doing it, or while doing a dare for someone else. I have seen many of these accidentally, just look up some of them on Youtube. I know for a fact that many people kill insects for fun, I have seen it done often. I have also seen people kill squirrels and mice for fun, especially if you give someone a BB gun.

While many of the insect killings aren't really necessary, Squirrels and Mice are technically pests. One can understand why they'd be killed.

If a human began running around in your house chewing things up and leaving their excrements all over the place, I don't think your reaction upon finding them would be "Aw."

Quote :

2. Anyone who hunts animals only for their trophies, and discards the rest of the body. Some hunters do not eat the animals they kill, they only use their heads to add to their collection of "achievements" on their wall at home. What kind of "acheivement" is there in killing an defenseless animal with a gun? Many animals are defenseless compared to the power of a gun, it isn't a fair fight at all. Hunters who kill only for trophies are essentially killing for their own enjoyment, whick is indeed sickening.

While it is silly to take trophies and not eat the animal, most animals hunted are in no-way defenseless.

Quote :

P.S. In case anyone says to me, "Well why do you like Felarya so much! There's plenty of killing in Felarya!"

The difference between Felarya and people that kill for fun is that the Nagas and other preds kill for food, not necessarily for fun. They just so happen to have fun while eating, which I can see nothing wrong with. I have fun while eating too!!!

I could point out the counters, but it's just the same as with humans: A smaller percentage of the whole.

beefy wrote:

Now I do agree that with Delicious Kevin that some humans kill for fun, whereas animals never kill for fun, only to feed or defend themselves.

This statement is so blatantly untrue in nature that I could spend the rest of my natural life providing examples to the contrary, and still not finish a complete list before I die. The only way to even make that statement possibly true in the face of all of the documented evidence that exists proving it is not the case would be to be very creative with one's definition of "feeding themselves" and/or "defending themselves".

... Unless, of course, you're talking about hypothetical animals that exist somewhere other than Earth.

Despite what PETA would have you believe, Nature is indeed "Red in Tooth and Claw", and very often it has little or even nothing at all to do with feeding or self-defense. Many animals do in fact actively seek out and kill other animals without eating the carcass or for any reason that could be construed as self-defense except in the loosest possible terms; like "Yes, your Honor, I went into his house and shot him seventeen times- but it was only because I was afraid he might hurt me... some day."

Seriously, I'd really like to know just where people get that idea, and how it persists when it's so easy nowadays to watch a nature documentary, read a book, or just do some basic research of the facts. This ranks up there with that whole "Primates are the only animals who use tools" nonsense, as far as being something that has been and is continually proven untrue, yet people still quote as though it were gospel.

beefy wrote:

The following may offend some people, but I don't care.

Delicious Kevin wrote:

Ok, this is a thread where you guys can continue the argument over weither or not humans are generally weak motherfuckers.

Want my take on the subject?

They are.

Personally, the human race disgusts me.

We are beasts, disgusting bastards who do as we wish with little thought for nature. We are not a humble species, we are a savage race, who kills for fun.

Now I do agree that with Delicious Kevin that some humans kill for fun, whereas animals never kill for fun, only to feed or defend themselves. Examples of humans killing for fun:

1. Anyone who has killed an insect or small animal while laughing or smiling with satisfaction while doing it, or while doing a dare for someone else. I have seen many of these accidentally, just look up some of them on Youtube. I know for a fact that many people kill insects for fun, I have seen it done often. I have also seen people kill squirrels and mice for fun, especially if you give someone a BB gun.

2. Anyone who hunts animals only for their trophies, and discards the rest of the body. Some hunters do not eat the animals they kill, they only use their heads to add to their collection of "achievements" on their wall at home. What kind of "acheivement" is there in killing an defenseless animal with a gun? Many animals are defenseless compared to the power of a gun, it isn't a fair fight at all. Hunters who kill only for trophies are essentially killing for their own enjoyment, whick is indeed sickening.

There are many humans in this world that do these things, and it disgusts me. I am only agreeing with Delicious Kevin that all humans that kill for fun suck. Those kind of humans definitely suck. I am not trying to start a fight with anyone, but I fully agree with Delicious Kevin that some humans suck because they kill for fun.

As for myself, there a a myriad of things I've done wrong in my life, but killing for fun is not one of them. It disgusts me.

P.S. In case anyone says to me, "Well why do you like Felarya so much! There's plenty of killing in Felarya!"

The difference between Felarya and people that kill for fun is that the Nagas and other preds kill for food, not necessarily for fun. They just so happen to have fun while eating, which I can see nothing wrong with. I have fun while eating too!!!

lol u pmed me with this. ill just post it here.
-----

i think some animales do kill for fun... Dogs and Cats (mostly cats i think) kill birds and rats but they dont eat it. Cats play hurt it, then play with it until its dead, like entertainment, some animles kill to mark their territory. So i beleive there are cases in nature where animales kill for other reasons as well.
--

Now if ur looking at this in a Felarya perspective, there are alot of reasons things kill eachother. revange. hatered. protecting and what u pointed out. self-defense, and hunger. So i honestly thing there is no way Preds kill ONLY for food, infact they wars with eachother.

The Naga and Dridder War for example, they kill each other on sight
---

So back tracking to the cat/dog killing for fun or for food... when you go to more higher intelligent beings(includeing preds), the reasons for killing get more complicated. But everything from bugs...to animales. i think everything has some kind of a killing instinct. Its just what reasons motivate us to do it.

Claire wrote:

So i beleive there are cases in nature where animales kill for other reasons as well.

Now if ur looking at this in a Felarya perspective, there are alot of reasons things kill eachother. revange. hatered. protecting and what u pointed out. self-defense, and hunger. So i honestly thing there is no way Preds kill ONLY for food, infact they wars with eachother.

The Naga and Dridder War for example, they kill each other on sight

So back tracking to the cat/dog killing for fun or for food... when you go to more higher intelligent beings(includeing preds), the reasons for killing get more complicated. But everything from bugs...to animales. i think everything has some kind of a killing instinct. Its just what reasons motivate us to do it.

Everything bolded applies to the natural kingdom, regardless of whether people want to believe it or not. There are documented cases of what can only really be described as "warfare" in the animal kingdom, between a wide variety of species and under a variety of different circumstances.

In some cases, scientists who have been studying the animals for decades still have no solid answer as to why it occurs and the motivation behind it.

And by "warfare", I don't mean stuff like Soldier Ants marching along a forest and killing and consuming everything in their path. I mean, seriously vicious fighting with tactics and everything; anyone who believes animals kill only for food or to defend themselves really needs to do some research on the behavior of Lions and Hyenas in Africa, and primate troops in Brazil. The things you find out will probably shock and amaze you.

Lions and Hyenas both practice revenge killing, use a wide variety of tactics during territorial skirmishes, actually launch raids against one another specifically to kill cubs and/or the Lion Pride/Hyena Clan leadership. Hyenas have no fear at all of female Lions; it's the male Lions that they will try to avoid if possible.

True fact: Lions and Hyenas can and do kill one another on sight, if they think they can; Lions do not eat Hyenas even if they kill one. Hyenas will eat Lions, but then again, they'll eat pretty much anything they can get their jaws on.

True fact: Troops of monkeys in Brazil and the Congo have been witnessed attacking one another using sticks that they sharpen to use as spears and large rocks they throw or use as hand-held weapons.

And those are just for starters. Trust me, if you really love animals, you probably don't really want to know or even think about the things they do to one another. No joke.

Anyone who feels animals only kill to eat or defend themselves didn't watch Jurassic Fight Club last night.

Hot damn, that was a good one....

...Why am I always late for these sorta things...Oh riiiight I'm never here anymore...so that's what that is...oh well, back to the topic at hand which I'm sure my post will be the same as someone elses despite being worded with witty and sarcastic remarks.

Now I myself don't like humans, in general some humans can be rather stupid, and impulsive despite having the IQ to avoid somethings that they KNOW are blantaly uncalled for or just down right retarded. Some humans KNOW they have the common sense NOT to do something but do it anyway like the idorts they really are. imo, those who're too stupid to know what not to do in a dangerous situation deserve what death befalls them, the more painful the better. And they better not reincarnate either cuz then they probably won't learn a damn thing from their past experince... but hey, as a certain someone said waaay before I posted this 'We ain't perfect' (I sure as hell ain't).

But I digress, without humans I wouldn't be tacking away on this cursed contraption I call a computer so I'm grateful for their technical know how...but that's about it. That being said I'm not going to be biased and say 'lol humans suck cuz I hate'em lol', instead I'm just gonna go with; People are shit but People are resourceful enough to find a way to turn shit into something benefical. (You're toilet waters recycled btw, the irony of it all)

Now as for the whole 'Animals killing for fun' jazz, it's true they do, I've seen my dog sniff out a mole and pull it from the ground doing everything he could to beat the thing senseless. Afterward he buried somewhere in our yard and to this day I still dunno why he tracked down and killed that mole. Coulda been from an instinct to protect his turf, coulda been a sudden urge to kill it, But either way I could tell he had fun with it.

Guess it goes to show that humans aren't really all THAT different from animals if one looks at certain aspects...but this is probably my flawed logic talking again so I'll shut up and watch what you guys have to say.

All right, I must admit that I did not word that statement correctly, and I'm sorry. I should have said "Many animals do not kill for fun," that would have been a much more accurate statement than to say "Animals never kill for fun." NEVER say NEVER. I'm practically slapping myself in the face right now for using absolutes such as "always" or "never." There is your proof right there that I make some pretty serious mistakes sometimes.

If I may continue, however...

Raetsu Lord Pichu wrote:

Now I myself don't like humans, in general some humans can be rather stupid, and impulsive despite having the IQ to avoid somethings that they KNOW are blantaly uncalled for or just down right retarded. Some humans KNOW they have the common sense NOT to do something but do it anyway like the idorts they really are.

My point exactly, many humans are capable of much higher brain funtion and common sense, and still they often choose not to think before they act and use their knowledge of right from wrong. It is very disappointing, and I do realize that we are imperfect beings. Although, when it comes to life and death situations, I am extremely disappointed at the decisions some humans make. That is how it makes me feel.

And no, I am not some animal rights rights activist in disguise, I'm not a vegetarian or anything like that. Let's just say I have a very high respect for life in general, and I myself could only kil for food or to defend myself or my family.

Do you guys understand my viewpoints any better now? Once again, I am not trying to start a debate here, I already witnessed Karbo locking down heated debates such as "The Gender Issue" back in December 2007. I only posted this to apologize for using the word "never." It is a very inappropriate word to use in most situations and it makes others think I am close-minded. My mistake.

[quote="TheQuantumMechanic"]

Claire wrote:

So i beleive there are cases in nature where animales kill for other reasons as well.
And those are just for starters. Trust me, if you really love animals, you probably don't really want to know or even think about the things they do to one another. No joke.

I feel that I may be misunderstood. My post was not about my love for animals, or my love for people. Those powerful emotions that I have for life, more so for humans than for animals, are irrelevant. I am aware that there are a great number of animals that kill for fun (but not most animals), and like I said, I should not have used the words "animals never kill for fun." I only posted in response to this topic to express my disgust with humans for killing needlessly, and that I think it sucks. The humans that do it do not suck, but the action itself sucks. I suppose I got a little carried away while defending my viewpoints. I think I am done with this subject for now. What do you guys think?

GREGOLE wrote:

Anyone who feels animals only kill to eat or defend themselves didn't watch Jurassic Fight Club last night.

Hot damn, that was a good one....

Hey Gregole, what was that movie "Jurrasic Fight Club" about? I mean, I've seen "Jurrasic Park" and "Fight Club." Those were some pretty awesome films Is this movie you speak of a combination of the two? Just Kidding. I'm probably way off.

Quote :

Hey Gregole, what was that movie "Jurrasic Fight Club" about? I mean, I've seen "Jurrasic Park" and "Fight Club." Those were some pretty awesome films Very Happy Is this movie you speak of a combination of the two? Just Kidding. I'm probably way off. laugh alone

It's a history channel documentary series detailing how prehistoric animals killed one another - often for things other than food or self-defense.

GREGOLE wrote:

It's a history channel documentary series detailing how prehistoric animals killed one another - often for things other than food or self-defense.

Wow. I watch a lot of nature and history documentaries, and I hadn't even heard of that until you mentioned it. Sounds like something I would enjoy a lot, I'll have to check the guide and try to DV-R it the next time it comes on.

Thanks, GREGOLE; I'll definitely be checking this out.

beefy wrote:

My point exactly, many humans are capable of much higher brain funtion and common sense, and still they often choose not to think before they act and use their knowledge of right from wrong. It is very disappointing, and I do realize that we are imperfect beings.

This. Many people do not want to use that higher brain function, or even think about things that are too hard or outside of their comfort zone. Some people just seem to have been born with a complete lack of common sense. Whatever the case, it's true that almost all humans have the potential to be highly intelligent, but often times that potential is poorly realized or just never realized at all.

It doesn't help that as a species, we've developed the ridiculous habit of giving people who do stupid things a great deal of attention, even if it's only to mock and laugh at them. For every person who goes through life making very smart, reasonable choices that lead to their success without fame... there's the idiot who calls 911 because Subway got his sandwich order wrong; and then calls them AGAIN to find out what's taking them so long to respond to his "emergency".

So, yeah. The only thing that can inspire your faith in humanity are the actions and personalities of other people, and the only thing that can ruin your faith in humanity are the actions and personalities of other people. It's just a matter of which you choose to see, and whether or not you're going to be willfully blind regarding the other.

beefy wrote:

Although, when it comes to life and death situations, I am extremely disappointed at the decisions some humans make. That is how it makes me feel.

And no, I am not some animal rights rights activist in disguise, I'm not a vegetarian or anything like that. Let's just say I have a very high respect for life in general, and I myself could only kil for food or to defend myself or my family.

Fair enough; I feel much the same way. The main thing is, you can say something like the statement I bolded above, and even mean it with all your heart; but that does not make it true. If you really want to find under what circumstances you would kill someone, the only way to truly know what you would do is to be in those circumstances. This applies in particular to things like combat situations; you might be surprised by the sort of people who handle their first armed engagement very well- it is rarely the sort of "gung-ho, G.I. Joe, brimming with confidence, will do and accomplish anything" person you might expect.

beefy wrote:

Do you guys understand my viewpoints any better now?

Sure, I understand; what's more, I even agree with a lot of what you said. However, I really don't feel that one can say that they have a high respect for life, and then shy away from the matter of death. Life and Death are always linked; even ancient cultures realized that. Sure, sometimes people die senselessly and needlessly, whether it's through accident or malice. However, Death is what gives Life its meaning; if we lived forever and could never die, even through massively violent acts... our existence would be fairly meaningless in the way that we currently reckon things.

You have an unlimited amount of time to accomplish whatever you wish, so why should you do it today? Or tommorow? Or the day after? Eventually, you stop perceiving time in the way humans currently do; when your existence consists of an infinite number of seconds, why could you even bother distinguishing between them? Or days, or months, or years?

What we do with the time we are alive in the world is important to us primarily because we have so little of it in relative terms. A being that was truly immortal; not just ageless, but had something even resembling an infinite existence, would be incapable of thinking in those terms.

I know this stuff is getting kind of existential, and I apologize; I don't talk about this kind of thing very often, but I do like thinking about it on occasion. One of the stories I'm planning, Unknown to Death, is going to focus on such matters (Mortality, Immortality, the Undead, Life, Death, etc.) pretty heavily. ^^

beefy wrote:

I only posted this to apologize for using the word "never." It is a very inappropriate word to use in most situations and it makes others think I am close-minded. My mistake.

Accepted. Steer clear of absolutes, they will always trip you up.

... See what I did there?

*is radically pro-human*

I'm... not even GOING to answer. Just... no. I refuse to get even more heated than I already am right now. And... my only answer is this: have a little loyalty.

ZionAtriedes wrote:

*is radically pro-human*

I'm... not even GOING to answer. Just... no. I refuse to get even more heated than I already am right now. And... my only answer is this: have a little loyalty.

Alright...? Withdrawing or not getting involved in the discussion is certainly your option, should you choose to take it.

... But all of the above is an answer, of sorts, and makes it pretty clear which side of the...

Quote :

So, yeah. The only thing that can inspire your faith in humanity are the actions and personalities of other people, and the only thing that can ruin your faith in humanity are the actions and personalities of other people. It's just a matter of which you choose to see, and whether or not you're going to be willfully blind regarding the other.

...debate you fall on, if you don't mind my saying so.

I'd like to state for the record that I fall squarely into the middle; I recognize that humanity has done things both wonderful and terrible, and think that it's more a matter of the individual than any trait that can be attributed directly to the species as a whole, unless you are talking in sheer terms of potential. I'm neither pro- or anti-human; fanatically clinging to all the horrible things humans have done while denying the amazing accomplishments humanity has acheived is the same thing as covering your ears and making noise to try and drown out someone you don't want to listen to... and vice versa.

But that's just my opinion on the matter; your mileage may vary.

I won't say I hate humanity but there is somthing I always criticize in the humanity, it's the fact they are not honest with themselves. We did good thing but we did bad thing too, a human can kill other humans for something he believes to be good. After all we are not flawless.

The humans are not different from the animals, they are animals like the others.

I like the story in many story where the humans face to themselves, where they discover things about their true nature they didn't expect, and think about who they are.