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 What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...

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Sephimink|Kyle
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:07 pm

Some extremely complex trickery within Hell would probably be the only possible demise of Menyssan, I would think. As for Crisis, a nuclear explosion provided that the guardians don't interfere. Also, a very formidable group of predators that have it out for her (and it would have to be when she is separated from her close company).
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:30 pm

MegaDan5 wrote:
I just remembered a spell from Dungeons and Dragons that could be lethal. It's called Cloudkill.
Only instantly lethal to 5HD creatures or less. Average Gargantuant is around 50HD. Though disintegrating a car-sized area with a Disintegrate spell would likely be lethal.

Now, what could kill them from weapons? Again, the FORCE:Ground rifle from Hyperion could do the trick nicely (a 14cm diameter cylindrical area of stone melted over a HALF KILOMETER DISTANCE). The thing could over penetrate a Naga, the Dridder behind it, the human in the fangs, the tree behind the human, and the recently vacated tank with the tracks blown out. In one shot.

A standard Stinger Missile could likely kill a Predator if placed right. A direct hit to the head at top speed (Well over Mach 2) could in the very least do serious damage internally if everything else somehow fails.

Anything at sufficient velocity is a threat to a Predator. In the 'Name a characters chances' thread, I think I mentioned the Flash having a potentially several kiloton punch power?

Shokk Attack gun by the Orks, because there's always the chance that the end portal would wind up inside the Predator's skull (And thus lead to the creature having its brain torn apart with no way of stopping it), along with some of the crazier weapons wielded by 40K factions (Bunker liquifying Multi-Melta's, Vortex Spears which are basically a black hole on a stick, Tyranid Venom Cannons / Devourers, etc).

A well placed SW thermal detonator could easily kill a Predator if placed right, considering how high the yields go. If one wants to be cruel, take one of the 200 Gigaton ISD Turbolasers and nuke a good portion of the planet.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:31 pm

Biological Warfare remains one of the better options, considering the dramatic lack of NBC gear on Felarya. I mean, who'd think of bringing NBC gear to someplace like Felarya?
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:33 pm

Or use a Disruptor weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:35 pm

Here's how you take down Crisis:

A neko strung above a very deep pit.

Here's how you take down Anna:

See above, but replace neko with a smoker.

Other than that, there are several ways to take down a pred. But I'm sure there will be several unique methods said here, so don't mind me.

If I mention any solutions involving mechs, there might be some arguing, so I'll save it for another day.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:37 pm

Send in the Divine Dragon!
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:39 pm

One should have known that, to create such a thread, they are inviting people to create as many Curb Stomps as possible.

Speaking of such, I forgot something - or more accurately, someone.

Q.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:54 pm

as much as I hate to say this (and god knows how much I hate to mention this bitches name)

Haruhi. Provided she can stay alive.

Also Yukari Yakumo. demonic gaps can kill y'know. And if you really wanna get all crossover-y, pick up a Death Note and write Crisis' (or Menyssans') name in it.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:00 am

I don't think biological warfare would work. Wiki sais "The ground of Felarya cures all known diseases by simple contact." Instead use chemical warfare, or better yet, a portable nuclear warhead, or give them the gift of tiberium and let it judge their fates. Evil laugh
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:42 am

bigman27622 wrote:
what could kill menyssan, Crisis, or any of the other famous giant nagas,dridders, succumbus, or anything else?????? i am meaning weapon-wise and i hope i can get everyones imput....like could a giant gun kill them???????? i dont think so but i want everyones opinion..... especially karbo's if i can get it!!!!!

An infinite number of objects, places, people, and abilities. It is easier to ask, "What can't kill a predator?", although the answer usually depends on who is writing the story, and whether or not that particular method even works in Felarya. A necromantic spell capable of killing any living being won't do you much good if it doesn't work on Felarya, regardless of the reason it doesn't work. Laughing

I can tell you most assuredly that there are guns capable of killing a predator, no matter how big it is. And they aren't necessarily "giant guns". But again, the fact that there are guns that can blow a naga in half does not help you at all when a naga is about to eat you, if you do not have one of those guns with you. On the other hand, there are also preds who won't even get scratched by one of those weapons due to stuff like magic. Having one of those guns isn't going to do you much good if the pred you are facing can protect itself with magic until you run out of ammo. It's all about context, really. Very Happy

Garnet wrote:
Why... Why talk about such mean things? :<

Because some people like to think about what it would take to turn the tables on a Pred. Smile

Also, some people are blindly Pro-Pred, which annoys the people who are blindly Pro-Prey, so they try to come up with things to prove that humans (or Nekos, or Tinies, or whatever) are superior, which further annoys the people who are blindly Pro-Pred and continues the cycle. Happens in every fandom, best not to take it personally. Wink

GREGOLE wrote:
Ok... well, lessee...

Any weapon with a high enough caliber. A 50 cal could probably inflict some real pain and a hundred cal could probably be lethal if aimed properly.
Most anti-tank weapons could probably get the job done.

Of course, a sufficiently large animal could do it just the same. Take just about anything from a giant monster movie and it'd be like pitting a human against a gorilla.

Oh, and Ultraman. Ultraman would obliterate most preds.

Agreed! Any firearm, artillery round, explosive, or any other weapon "big enough". Most serious anti-tank weaponry or tank-mounted weaponry that lands a hit is going to cripple or kill most Preds that rely on purely physical defenses (thick skin, tough bones, etc). Magical, psionic, or other non-physical defenses are a different matter, but just having "really tough skin" is not going to let you survive a 120mm HEAT round (or heaven help you, a depleted uranium KE penetrator) from the main gun of a Main Battle Tank. It is just not possible, barring external factors; like you said "really tough skin" but actually meant "Can only be damaged by magic/holy/green/whatever weapons".

Pretty much any Kaiju worth its salt (not just Godzilla, The Blob from that 1950s movie of the same name would totally devour most Preds), any Ultraman ever. Some Kamen Riders. Most Super Sentai teams. Heck, most Tokusatsu heroes in general; they tend to run towards a high level of power.

ZionAtriedes wrote:
ULTRAMAN!!!!

Anyways, yeah, Sean's got a point. The whole "invincible pred" thing is really crap. I mean, I don't care how tough any naga is, its skin just won't stand up to, say, a high-powered anti-tank rifle. Now, you ask "hasn't anyone tried this?", and the answer would probably be "no". Why? Because most people in Felarya are there by accident, and are unprepared. The few people that are prepared can usually defend themselves somewhat. Plus, huge anti-tank weaponry isn't easy to lug around...

Other than that, giant mechs and armies of tanks attract Guardians. And those guys can stand up to the aforementioned rifle.

ULTRAMAN!!!! cheers I agree, to a point. I'll concede that the whole "invincible pred" concept in general is lame, but the concept of the "unbeatable human" is equally lame. The main issue I have with each side of the arguement is that they tend to underestimate, if not completely ignore, what the other side has going for them and overestimate their own advantages. Realistically, there are very few situations in which doing this will not get you killed.

I do agree that the explanation for "Why hasn't anyone done this?" is most likely, "No, because I wound up some strange place I've never seen before, and I didn't just happen to have a railgun/MBT/RPG/Gundam/fusion cannon in my pocket." When you are randomly thrust into a situation you are prepared for, the only thing you can really do is just make do however (and with whatever)you can.

However, I think it rarely gets to the point of the Guardians getting involved, unless you're talking about a full-scale invasion. There are people in Felarya who have heavy weapons and the organization and capability to go toe-to-toe with a Pred (or multiple Preds). The smart ones do not, if they can avoid it. Why? In an environment as deadly and hostile (in terms of sheer abundance of organisms trying to kill you) as Felarya, a prolonged firefight is never, ever going to increase your chances for survival. You disagree?

Consider this: It is not only possible, but highly likely that the second you opened up on that predator, something (or several somethings) else heard it. You just rang the freaking dinner bell. No problem, you brought the heavy weapons along, right? How much ammo do you have? Can you fire them over your shoulder while running away, or are you going to have to take up a defensible position and stay in one place where anything that wants to find you will be able to? Okay, nightfall is coming, and you just chased away or killed your third Naga. How much ammo do you have left now? Enough to stop that Tonorion that just showed up? No, you used it all on that last Naga? Sucks to be you.

While this example is completely hypothetical, it is not a stretch at all. Here's a fun fact: Pretty much all decent military and police forces (as well as bodyguards) around the world follow the same procedure for ambush scenarios, when they are the ones being ambushed in the situation. The first thing they train you to do, without exception, is get the hell out of the kill zone. It varies from there; some forces stay and fight, some keep moving.

But you never stop and fight there if there is any other option, you have to get out of the immediate ambush area (where the enemy has full advantage), then you can regroup and engage. If you stay there, or are stuck there (pinned down, massively outnumbered, no viable escape routes, etc.), your odds for surviving- not winning, just managing to survive at all- drastically decrease by the moment. There is only so long you can hold out without more food, ammunition, medical aid for the wounded, etc. Once it turns into a matter of attrition, You. Are. Screwed. help

When on Felarya, the size of the kill zone is exactly the size of Felarya itself, excluding defensible settlements (and I wouldn't really consider them safe, either). To be honest, a person's best bet for surviving an encounter with a predator is to end that encounter as fast as they possibly can and get the hell out of there Arrow , regardless of the method they use (teleportation spell, overwhelming firepower, whatever). For all the talk about "best and brightest, most accomplishments, yadda yadda" from the Pro-Human folk, and complaints about when humans are portrayed as idiots, I am surprised by how many people advocate doing something as blatantly stupid as "gunning down every predator in sight". If you actually have the capability to do that and survive, then Felarya really isn't a dangerous place for you to be. scratch In fact, if you've reached that point, then a bunch of measly predators running around in the bushes should be the last thing on your mind; you should be thinking about that confrontation with the Guardians that you're well on your way towards, and how you're going to survive that. Laughing

Malahite wrote:
MegaDan5 wrote:
I just remembered a spell from Dungeons and Dragons that could be lethal. It's called Cloudkill.
Only instantly lethal to 5HD creatures or less. Average Gargantuant is around 50HD. Though disintegrating a car-sized area with a Disintegrate spell would likely be lethal.

Agreed, Cloudkill just wouldn't be enough to do the job. Edit: Only auto-kills creatures 3HD and under. It's "Save or Die" vs 4-6HD creatures. Disintegrate is good, but I would recommend with Phantasmal Killer or Weird (depending on the caster). Cast it, and assuming they aren't immune to illusions, you can just walk away while they are busy disbelieving or dying. For high-level casters, other recommendations would be Imprisonment, which will effectively get rid of them forever, unless they have some good friends willing to go to a whole lot of trouble to undo the spell; or Gate. Tossing a Gate spell in front of or under them, and sending the Pred on a one-way trip to someplace else (Hell, Negative Energy plane, Cleveland, wherever). No Fort save, no magic resistance, and unless the predator has the means for planar/universal travel, (s)he is out of your hair.

There are plenty of magical means in D&D that would take care of business, particularly when it comes to combinations of spells and metamagical feats, some of which can be absurdly gamebreaking (Locate City Bomb, anyone?). And lets not forget, if you have serious power to spare and a Predator really pisses you off... there's the "Wish" spell. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:15 am

Thanks for this explanation :clap:
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:52 am

Wish spells be mighty dangerous, especially when attempting to remove another being. The caster is likely to wind up either flung in the future when the thing no longer exists, or in the past [likely right] before the creature was born.

A wall of force could work, if you lure a Pred into a place where the wall can trap it fully.

I'm pretty sure that there's a D&D spell that's basically a planar gate on a blade, which has unsurprisingly lethal effects. Even if not, the caster could still just create a Gate like you said.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:00 am

Thing is, one has to wonder if the 'disease' includes viruses.

Chemical Warfare is another good option, though. Cover an area with Chlorine Gas, then mop up any 'survivors'.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:14 am

Perhaps an acid spraying gun for added irony? A very large acid sprayer.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:16 am

*giggles* well what could kill them....um.. how should i approach this..........*Sineria shows her teeth and makes her fangs grow* (points to her fangs) these have been working wel for me so far. *blushes* ah! you have to excuse me, i'm not used to talking about my eating habits. Evil laugh Evil laugh
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:39 am

Malahite wrote:
I'm pretty sure that there's a D&D spell that's basically a planar gate on a blade, which has unsurprisingly lethal effects. Even if not, the caster could still just create a Gate like you said.

I know that one. It's called Black Blade of Disaster
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:08 am

MegaDan5 wrote:
I know that one. It's called Black Blade of Disaster
Thank you. Poke anything with that and they're just about screwed. Vorpal Blade also might be able to, considering the insta-death effect was supposed to be from something like severing their silver life string.

D&D actually leaves a good deal of options to kill Predators. The thing is that they're mostly game-mechanics, and very few can cast the better stuff. And Game Mechanics are among the worst things to use in debates (To prove a point, one quantified Starcraft using game mechanics. They wound up with something like teraton-burst Gauss Rifles on the basic Terran Marine).
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:08 am

Malahite wrote:
Wish spells be mighty dangerous, especially when attempting to remove another being. The caster is likely to wind up either flung in the future when the thing no longer exists, or in the past [likely right] before the creature was born.

Any type of wish effect that actually happens is incredibly dangerous, even if there isn't a malicious genie with a love for loopholes involved. I didn't say that it was the best option, merely that it existed and could of great use for a really powerful spellcaster who wants to make a predator really miserable. You don't even have to use it to directly remove the predator; Wish that (s)he was the size of a tiny for the rest of his/her life, or wish that (s)he was a human from now on. If you really want to be vicious, and are already confident in your ability to escape by other means, this is what you do:

Wish that for the rest of its life, the predator experiences the pain felt by any humans it consumes. And then see how long it takes for the pred to decide that humans just aren't tasty enough to deal with the feeling of being slowly digested every time it eats one. You did not kill the predator, but it might wish you had, in the long run. Evil laugh

Malahite wrote:
A wall of force could work, if you lure a Pred into a place where the wall can trap it fully.

Definitely. It seems like people really overlook the value and creative application of defensive spells in favor of spells that let you blow stuff up. You might not even need to be able to trap a predator fully with the spell; If you can make a big enough wall of force, and the only available path away from or around it is the several-thousand-foot-high-cliff right behind her, you have done a pretty good job of neutralizing a predator (assuming it doesn't have capabilities which would help it get around or through the wall; flight, magic negation, more powerful spellcaster than you are, etc.).

Malahite wrote:
I'm pretty sure that there's a D&D spell that's basically a planar gate on a blade, which has unsurprisingly lethal effects. Even if not, the caster could still just create a Gate like you said.

Oh, I know the one you mean. It was a 2nd ed. spell, and I don't think they put it into later editions; it was absurdly powerful and only a 3rd level spell. Dimensional Blade, I believe that was the name. It basically involved the use of a narrowly focused Gate spell on a blade, as you said; Only, what you sent through the gate was one of the blade's three dimensions (the "thickness" of the cutting edge). Now, you're left with a blade that has length and width, and an edge so infinitely thin that it cannot possibly be measured. It slides effortlessly through anything, because nothing physical can stop it.

Creatures that can only be hurt by magical weapons, holy weapons, unholy weapons, fire; Immaterial creatures, extra-planar creatures, mountains, etc- anything with any degree of physical substance in a dimension (any of the ones you exist in or perceive) gets cut, because when you swing the sword at them they are colliding head-on with the edge of a dimensional boundary.

3rd level dimensional magic spell. sobsob The only saving graces were that it only last one round per caster level, and you had to actually get hit by the blade; back then, wizards sucked with swords (and pretty much any melee weapon). That hasn't been guaranteed since 2nd ed. days, though.

Sineria. wrote:
*giggles* well what could kill them....um.. how should i approach this..........*Sineria shows her teeth and makes her fangs grow* (points to her fangs) these have been working wel for me so far. *blushes* ah! you have to excuse me, i'm not used to talking about my eating habits. Evil laugh Evil laugh

Of course. Laughing We've been most neglectful to not mention the obvious, "Anything capable of eating a predator", ie. another predator. But then, carrying around a dridder's fangs and poison usually isn't an available option of we mere humans. Wink

MegaDan5 wrote:
I know that one. It's called Black Blade of Disaster

No, Black Blade of Disaster is much, much worse (which means that it will work just fine). What Malahite was referring to was the spell Dimensional Blade. Black Blade of Disaster is a 9th level spell, and you don't need to have a sword, or even know how to use one. You create a vaguely sword-shaped planar rift which floats around and fights for you. The "sword" is non-physical, so it can't really be damaged by physical effects. Not that it matters, because anything that it comes in contact with gets chunks "disintegrated" out of it (parts of it fall through the rift into some other plane). For comparison, Dimensional Blade can injure a Tarrasque. Black Blade of Disaster can effectively "kill" a Tarrasque, just by cutting it up enough that it eventually winds up being removed from your plane of existence (it is still not dead, but what's left of it is "somewhere else"). High level D&D spells are just sick. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:53 am

I could name off a few D&D spells like that:

Power Word: Kill
Finger of Death
Flesh to Stone
* Cause Fear
* Circle of Death
* Crisis of Life
* Death Knell
* Demise Unseen
* Destruction
* Improved Death Attack
* Momento Mori
* Recall Death
* Scarab of Death
* Slay
* Slay Living
* Symbol of Death
* Wail of the Banshee
Phantasmal Killer
Weird
Disintegrate
Clutch of Orcus
Heartripper
Holy Word (Against Evil)
Blasphemy (Against Good)
Word of Chaos (Against Lawful)
Dictum (Against Chaos)
Death Knell
Bodak's Glare
Implosion
Opalescent Glare
Implsion
Curse of Lycanthropy (Kills, then summons wererats
Wrathful Castigation
Glass Strike
Final Rebuke
Arrow of Bone
Incorporeal Nova
Death Throes (You die, Your enemy dies too.)
Junglerazer (This would be effective in Felarya)
Black Blade of Disaster
Sword of Darkness
Sphere of Ultimate Destruction
Reality Maelstrom
Prismatic Ray
Death Fog


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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:13 am

Indeed. A mid-level or high-level AD&D spellcaster has a number of options open to them. And if you can cast ninth-level spells, you pretty much become a being of immeasurable power (as long as you're properly prepared), and only really have to worry about other beings of immeasurable power (Guardians, Elder Gods, the most powerful extraplanar beings, and the like).

But if you are that powerful, you probably aren't going to be futzing around with the typical hungry naga unless you have a particular vendetta against her (or him). You don't get to be that powerful without making powerful enemies along the way, and unless you're trying to lay low for a while, why in the heck would you be out traipsing in the wilds of Felarya? That's what adventurers and treasure hunters are for; use them. Very Happy

Pretty good list of spell examples, although I'd note that a lot of them are Necromancy spells, and may or may not work as intended on Felarya. Also, Symbol of Death will kill you along with your intended target if you are in the area when it is triggered. Be careful.

(I know this because in a fairly high-level campaign, our mage wiped out himself, half our party, and the one creature we were fighting because he didn't understand that "kills up to 150 hit points worth of creatures in a 60 ft. radius" included us. It also didn't help that he empowered the spell with metamagic feats. Sad )
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:26 am

A high-level spellcaster has access to tons of different spells.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:46 am

Getting back on topic...

Most main characters from a Final Fantasy game, at their shining moment. Any of the more powerful characters from a Final Fantasy game in general, all of the final bosses and secret bosses from any Final Fantasy game. The most powerful weapons and spells from any Final Fantasy game. The more powerful Final Fantasy summons (Knights of the Round, Bahamut variants, etc.).

About half of the cast of any Super Robot Wars game, assuming they have their equipment. Any Super Robot worth its salt in general. Some Real Robots. Any boss from a Super Robot Wars game, except for the weakest of them (and even some of them can be nightmares).

Most of the characters from any Touhou game.

Any Heroic Spirit/Servant from the Fate/Stay Night series. Tohno Shiki from Tsukihime or Ryougi Shiki from Kara no Kyoukai can kill any predator that can be killed with a pocketknife. But their ability would only work on Earth, in the Type-Moon universe. Pretty much any of the more powerful characters in any Type-Moon works; anyone or anything that can hold their own against a Servant for even a little while, or defeat a Servant:

Ciel with the Seventh Holy Scripture, Aoko Aozaki, Arcueid during the Crimson Moon, any other True Ancestor or Dead Apostle Ancestors <both types of vampires>, any Counter Force (Alaya, in particular), anyone with a Reality Marble, a powerful Marble Phantasm or Noble Phantasm, a Conceptual Weapon. A good deal of these would only hold true on the Earth of the Type-Moon universe (Gaia), unless Felarya allowed for the same rules (a Will of Felarya to act as the Will of Gaia in regards to those abilities depending on it).

Any weapon powerful enough to destroy a world, for obvious reasons. But again, in that situation your problem isn't how to deal with common predators, but how to deal with the Guardians. Wink

Most serious weapons from 40k. Certain Psyker abilities. Some Faith abilities of the Adepta Sororitas. Edit: Additionally, while still on the matter of the Sororitas... A Canoness. Alternately, a Palatine specifically set up for killing monstrous creatures (but that would be a much tougher fight). A Seraphim squad would murder most predators (excepting Fire Succubi, and possibly Harpies. That would make a good fight). Any of the greater Inquisitorial Assassins. A Living Saint. Enough Dominions, or lots of fire support from a Retributor squad. Penitent Engines or a squad of Repentia could pose a serious threat to a Dryad.


Last edited by TheQuantumMechanic on Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Malahite
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:00 am

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:
[...] Adepta Sororitas.
Great, now the Neko occupants of Felarya have to choose between a several hundred foot eating machine and Zealous Power Armored Nuns running around with what amounts to a rapid fire grenade launcher.

They just don't catch a break, huh?
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TheQuantumMechanic
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:03 am

Malahite wrote:
Great, now the Neko occupants of Felarya have to choose between a several hundred foot eating machine and Zealous Power Armored Nuns running around with what amounts to a rapid fire grenade launcher.

They just don't catch a break, huh?

Heh. Poor nekos. Sad Of course, the smart ones will figure out a way to survive. The really smart ones will figure out a way to get ahold of those toys and use them for themselves. Very Happy
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MegaDan5
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PostSubject: Re: What is the best tactical and strategic offense against...   Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:04 am

Here's a way to get rid of predators without killing them. Send in an army of debt collectors. Instant, very-filling meal for the preds.
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