Psionics in Felarya - the "I win!" button

er, NOT!!!

LOL got y'all going, huh.


Seriously, it can be the "you lose" button if you try to jack into a fairy's mind.

How does a psionicist survive and dominate in battle in Felarya, and what are the pitfalls?


Developing strong or even epic telekinesis might get you a long way... or will it?

The competent way: Pop a blood cell in the target's brain. Done.
The way used by anyone who wants any sort of story: Telekinesis and occasional mind reading.

EDIT: This depends so much on the Psyker's power, it isn't even funny. Well, in some cases, it is. Oh Cherubael...

Malahite wrote:

The competent way: Pop a blood cell in the target's brain. Done.
The way used by anyone who wants any sort of story: Telekinesis and occasional mind reading.

EDIT: This depends so much on the Psyker's power, it isn't even funny. Well, in some cases, it is. Oh Cherubael...

Is psi automatically effective against ghosts, diamond nagas, succubi and also non-corporeals like negative hydras?

Or does it take epic mastery to reach them?

Psi has been asserted to be a way to accessing the spirit realm, too...

ETA: Dang. WH40K Psykers are way godmods in Felarya..

Raveolution wrote:

Is psi automatically effective against ghosts, diamond nagas, succubi and also non-corporeals like negative hydras?

Against Magical Insubstantiality, I don't see why things such as Starcraft Psi, 40K Psi, and others where the source comes from the life force wouldn't be close enough to magic to harm them. However this leads to the problem of people wondering if it then counts as very controlled magic when it comes to resistance. Against non-magical insubstantiality, and with obviously no-magical-effect Psi, this becomes a much more debatable issue.

Malahite wrote:

Against Magical Insubstantiality, I don't see why things such as Starcraft Psi, 40K Psi, and others where the source comes from the life force wouldn't be close enough to magic to harm them.

The word "psionic" is often used to endow science fictional characters with abilities, which, if they were called "magic", would make the story fantasy. So it's not close to magic it's magic

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Malahite wrote:

Against Magical Insubstantiality, I don't see why things such as Starcraft Psi, 40K Psi, and others where the source comes from the life force wouldn't be close enough to magic to harm them.

The word "psionic" is often used to endow science fictional characters with abilities, which, if they were called "magic", would make the story fantasy. So it's not close to magic it's magic

In some realms they make a differentiation between the two, and have them both similar. The way I see it: Can anyone [even if the best of the best and most powerful of all] attack one's soul directly with their Psionics? If yes, Psionics can count as magical in working out what they damage. ((EDIT: For that realm. ))

And there's such a thing as Space Fantasy. Star Wars, Starcraft, Warhammer 40,000, Dune, each can be counted as much a Fantasy sort of realm as Sci-Fi.

One of the major differences I note for psionics and magic is that psionics is still pretty effective against things with high agic resistance (as long as they have simple minds... like insects), though it may be weaker against things with high magic power (since magic often requires a strong will and therefore great mental fortitude).

Basicly, against insects, psi is totally an "I win button" But yeah, against sentient beings it's much less of a factor.

Malahite wrote:

In some realms they make a differentiation between the two, and have them both similar. The way I see it: Can anyone [even if the best of the best and most powerful of all] attack one's soul directly with their Psionics? If yes, Psionics can count as magical in working out what they damage. ((EDIT: For that realm. ))

And there's such a thing as Space Fantasy. Star Wars, Starcraft, Warhammer 40,000, Dune, each can be counted as much a Fantasy sort of realm as Sci-Fi.

I see what you mean

Feign wrote:

One of the major differences I note for psionics and magic is that psionics is still pretty effective against things with high magic resistance (as long as they have simple minds... like insects), though it may be weaker against things with high magic power (since magic often requires a strong will and therefore great mental fortitude).

I agree, the efficiency of the psionics will depend of the mental resistance due to the complexity of the minds of the creature.

Feign wrote:

Basicly, against insects, psi is totally an "I win button" But yeah, against sentient beings it's much less of a factor.

I have some doubt, it has been shown in many fictions insect based creature can be immune to psi power. The insects are more numerous and the more diversified than the sentient creature and some specimen possess a mind more complex, so some insects can be completely immune to magic and psionic or possess psionic powers too.

I will quoe as example Quaz the king of the insects, his action are completely unpredictable even for the other guardians, and can control all the insects in Felarya too.

And things like instinct, intuition and reflex can be efficient against psionics powers because they can be responsible of actions which don't require the necessity to think

The problem with Psionics in fiction is people tend not to think of the full possibilities of such. There's so many potential things one can do with Psychics, you've almost as much options as a Wizard.

Malahite wrote:

The problem with Psionics in fiction is people tend not to think of the full possibilities of such. There's so many potential things one can do with Psychics, you've almost as much options as a Wizard.

Even more, in many situations. In general, I can't think of any world where psionic powers don't work, since the major dependency is mental activity which all living creatures display to some degree; there might be worlds where the population hasn't developed that level of mental ability, but it isn't the same thing as having a world where no magical energy (and thus no magic) exist.

Functionally, psychic powers can operate in a fashion almost indistinguishable from magic, the more powerful you become. Where I personally draw the distinction is on the following restrictions:

1) Can psychic powers be used in places that magical powers can not (for example, anti-magic zones, worlds where magic does not exist, etc.)?
2) Is a target's level of magical resistance (doesn't matter whether they are highly vulnerable, highly resistant, or completely immune to magic) irrelevant to the use of psychic powers against them?

If the answer to both questions are "Yes", then from a logical standpoint, Psionics and Magic are two completely different things. It doesn't matter if the entity you are trying to affect is a human, a field mouse, or a spirit; if the only requirement for mind-blasting something is that it has a mind, and not that it is physical, then their magical nature is irrelevant to the use of psionics against them.

This doesn't mean that there aren't magical creatures which also have powerful psychic abilities, however, so if you have the misfortune to run into one of them, Psionics will obviously not be an automatic "I Win!" button. It then becomes more of a contest to see which one of you can mash that button faster.

Feign wrote:

Basicly, against insects, psi is totally an "I win button" But yeah, against sentient beings it's much less of a factor.

I have to agree with gwadahunter on that point; being an insect does not automatically make you vulnerable to psionic powers. Typically, stuff like psionic-based mind control and telepathy is portrayed as requiring a certain degree of ability to relate to the target's mind.

It gets a lot harder to do for long periods of time when you're trying to control something that just doesn't think in any way the human mind can rationalize, which is why creatures with very inhuman mindsets are so dangerous to make mental contact with.

Some psychics might find insects very easy to control... and some psychics might find themselves accidentally becoming locked into that mindset and unable to regain their sense of humanity. I'll have to look up the exact sourcebook dealing with it, but I recall Insect Shamans from Shadowrun facing that exact danger; some of them wind up getting too close to the hive mentality of the insect spirits, and then actually become part of the hive. They're still human in form, but as far as their mentality goes, they are a normally functioning member of the hive... and treated as such by the insect spirits.

It's a pretty sobering thought, which clearly points out some of the dangers inherent with psychic abilities. Sure, you can do all kinds of cool stuff with your mind; but when you lose your mind, the chances are good that you actually will lose your mind- everything that makes you an individual. Terrifying thought, in my opinion.

Edit: That's why, given the choice, I'd take Telekinesis or Teleportation over Telepathy. Sure, you might accidentally overwork your brain and make your head explode, or teleport into something and die instantly, but at least you'll die a human.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Feign wrote:

Basicly, against insects, psi is totally an "I win button" But yeah, against sentient beings it's much less of a factor.

I have to agree with gwadahunter on that point; being an insect does not automatically make you vulnerable to psionic powers. Typically, stuff like psionic-based mind control and telepathy is portrayed as requiring a certain degree of ability to relate to the target's mind.

It gets a lot harder to do for long periods of time when you're trying to control something that just doesn't think in any way the human mind can rationalize, which is why creatures with very inhuman mindsets are so dangerous to make mental contact with.

Ah, I kind of look at it this way: It helps one's driving ability to know how the car works, but a person with minimal knowledge of such can still drive a car.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Some psychics might find insects very easy to control... and some psychics might find themselves accidentally becoming locked into that mindset and unable to regain their sense of humanity. I'll have to look up the exact sourcebook dealing with it, but I recall Insect Shamans from Shadowrun facing that exact danger; some of them wind up getting too close to the hive mentality of the insect spirits, and then actually become part of the hive. They're still human in form, but as far as their mentality goes, they are a normally functioning member of the hive... and treated as such by the insect spirits.

True, for someone who focuses their skills on controlling insects, but for the general-purpose psy that tosses Blast No.514 at a bug's tiny think organs, it's not so much a danger.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

It's a pretty sobering thought, which clearly points out some of the dangers inherent with psychic abilities. Sure, you can do all kinds of cool stuff with your mind; but when you lose your mind, the chances are good that you actually will lose your mind- everything that makes you an individual. Terrifying thought, in my opinion.

Edit: That's why, given the choice, I'd take Telekinesis or Teleportation over Telepathy. Sure, you might accidentally overwork your brain and make your head explode, or teleport into something and die instantly, but at least you'll die a human.

Well, at least all three methods of psionic oopsie are pretty much quick and painless...

Feign wrote:

Well, at least all three methods of psionic oopsie are pretty much quick and painless...

Not always...

The way I see it, Psionics and Magic are two different means of achieving the same effect. Therefore, to determine if magical resistance will work against a psionic attack, one has to define the resistance more clearly. Does the magical resistance block the means, or does it block the effect?

For example, mind control. If a predators resistance normally blocks the magical energies accessing the predator's mind, a mental psionic attack has a good chance of bypassing this defense altogether. However, if a predator's resistance normally blocks the actual alteration of the mind itself, a mental psionic attack will have to overcome this defense to take effect.

Just my two cents.

And that picture creeps me out, Malahite. Jeez.

Feign wrote:

Ah, I kind of look at it this way: It helps one's driving ability to know how the car works, but a person with minimal knowledge of such can still drive a car.

The problem with that analogy is that it requires the assumption that all minds are cars, which probably isn't the case.

For a completely hypothetical situation:

You're a fairly badass psyker, walking around on Felarya, and suddenly you come across this odd-looking creature you've never encountered before. You decide to try and 'hijack' its mind, make contact... and then discover that instead of a human-like mind, what you're looking at is five brains each functioning as an independant mind, each handling fragments of information that are parallel processed into a single cohesive thought.

In that case, what you're looking at is as different from the human mind as a jumbo jet is from a car; they're both minds, just like both the jumbo jet and the car are vehicles. But no amount of knowledge about one applies to the other; knowing how to drive a car from Dallas to Sacramento isn't going to help you pilot a jet from Dallas to Sacramento.

I'm a bit drowsy at the moment from painkillers, not sure if that explains it?

It works pretty much the same way with extremely simple creatures instead of complex ones as well; it's unlikely that anyone is capable of 'mind-controlling' an amoeba with telepathy, because they just don't have anything resembling a mind. They have a rudimentary awareness of their immediate surroundings, and some behavioral instructions encoded in the DNA inside their nucleus, but they don't actually think.

Feign wrote:

True, for someone who focuses their skills on controlling insects, but for the general-purpose psy that tosses Blast No.514 at a bug's tiny think organs, it's not so much a danger.

Right, I was only focusing on the purely mental aspects of it. Sure, trying to delve into a fairy's mind might make you lose yours, but there's no reason you can't just give them an aneurism, pop them in the head with a psybolt, or drop a PK Starstorm on them... unless you don't have the ability to.

Feign wrote:

Well, at least all three methods of psionic oopsie are pretty much quick and painless...

Well, the other two are; as Malahite demonstrated, it isn't always the case with the other. There might be a whole bunch of brainfried telepaths wandering around the Fairy Kingdom, babbling incoherently about stuff like this.

Tuc135 wrote:

The way I see it, Psionics and Magic are two different means of achieving the same effect. Therefore, to determine if magical resistance will work against a psionic attack, one has to define the resistance more clearly. Does the magical resistance block the means, or does it block the effect?

That's pretty much my take on it as well, except that if it blocks the means effect, then it's not so much a purely magical effect. The main point of difference is whether or not the mechanism is the same. If it isn't, then Magic and Psionics are not the same thing, no matter how similar the fashion in which they work. EDIT: Corrected, I meant the effect and not the means. Darn pills.

If you can't counterspell or anti-magic a TK Bolt coming at you, then Magic and Psionics are completely different things. You might still be able to block a TK Bolt with a generic magic shield, because in essence a TK Bolt is a matter of physical force, so a barrier that can stop physical force should stop a TK Bolt.

Where things get more complicated is deciding exactly where to draw the line. Can a psyker telekinetically "force choke" a mage who is inside that magic shield? Or lift up a rock off the ground inside of the shield, and smack them upside the head with it?

The direct relationship of effect between magical abilities and psionic abilities is pretty easy to figure out, it's the indirect ones that cause the problems, in my opinion.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

babbling incoherently about stuff like this.

dsfawedfdsdssdfing TIMECUBE!

I read that whole freaking thing once...

PSA kids: Don't attempt to travel backwards in time. It will fuck you up faster than crack.


EDIT: Back on topic, I agree with almost everything TQM's and Malahite's posts above me.

Feign wrote:

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

babbling incoherently about stuff like this.

dsfawedfdsdssdfing TIMECUBE!

I read that whole freaking thing once...

A friend of mine just showed that to me the other day, and I had pretty much the same reaction. I'm pretty much speechless, because I don't think there even are words in the English language that can adequately describe that.

Feign wrote:

PSA kids: Don't attempt to travel backwards in time. It will fuck you up faster than crack.

Quoted for TRUTH. Y'know, now that I think about it, maybe time travel is the cause for that; maybe that movie 12 Monkeys was an account of this guy's life, or something.

On topic, I think that under a specific set of circumstances, and with a specific set of powers, psionics might be an automatic "I Win!" button. Say, if your opponent is a mage who has to chant to cast spells, and you telepathically punch him in the language centers of his brain.

Or, if the guy has to make a series of intricate hand gestures to cast and you happen to be telekinetic, just start moving his arm around randomly while he's in the middle of a spell and see what happens. What happens afterwards might not help you at all, but it might be pretty darn funny.

Malahite wrote:

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Malahite wrote:

Against Magical Insubstantiality, I don't see why things such as Starcraft Psi, 40K Psi, and others where the source comes from the life force wouldn't be close enough to magic to harm them.

The word "psionic" is often used to endow science fictional characters with abilities, which, if they were called "magic", would make the story fantasy. So it's not close to magic it's magic

In some realms they make a differentiation between the two, and have them both similar. The way I see it: Can anyone [even if the best of the best and most powerful of all] attack one's soul directly with their Psionics? If yes, Psionics can count as magical in working out what they damage. ((EDIT: For that realm. ))

And there's such a thing as Space Fantasy. Star Wars, Starcraft, Warhammer 40,000, Dune, each can be counted as much a Fantasy sort of realm as Sci-Fi.

My theory on psi, magic and the soul is, either art can reach the spirit realm if mastered to an epic level.

In my opinion, Psi accesses the spirit realm through the eye-windows of the mind. Magic reaches the spirit realm through another method.

As best I can reckon, Psi makes use of what is. Magic can go further and make use of what isn't (like conjuring). Psi is thus probably more limited than magic which, at an epic level, can alter reality... see: Wanda the Scarlett Witch and "House of M".

A mage has to hide completely in "what is not" to stay away from an epic psi master. A psi person has to get inside that mage's head beforehand and say "you forgot your magic" or "you want to attack yourself." Getting inside may pose certain... hazards.

One thing is for sure. S/he who masters psi and magic ... pwns.

Raveolution wrote:

A mage has to hide completely in "what is not" to stay away from an epic psi master. A psi person has to get inside that mage's head beforehand and say "you forgot your magic" or "you want to attack yourself." Getting inside may pose certain... hazards.

Which is why they shouldn't go for that, and attempt some of the things Quantum suggested. Similarly, breaking all the mages fingers mid-spell casting tends to work wonders for breaking concentration.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Some psychics might find insects very easy to control... and some psychics might find themselves accidentally becoming locked into that mindset and unable to regain their sense of humanity. I'll have to look up the exact sourcebook dealing with it, but I recall Insect Shamans from Shadowrun facing that exact danger; some of them wind up getting too close to the hive mentality of the insect spirits, and then actually become part of the hive. They're still human in form, but as far as their mentality goes, they are a normally functioning member of the hive... and treated as such by the insect spirits.

It's a pretty sobering thought, which clearly points out some of the dangers inherent with psychic abilities. Sure, you can do all kinds of cool stuff with your mind; but when you lose your mind, the chances are good that you actually will lose your mind- everything that makes you an individual. Terrifying thought, in my opinion.

Edit: That's why, given the choice, I'd take Telekinesis or Teleportation over Telepathy. Sure, you might accidentally overwork your brain and make your head explode, or teleport into something and die instantly, but at least you'll die a human.

Absolutely epically on the mark, IMHO.

Malahite wrote:

Raveolution wrote:

A mage has to hide completely in "what is not" to stay away from an epic psi master. A psi person has to get inside that mage's head beforehand and say "you forgot your magic" or "you want to attack yourself." Getting inside may pose certain... hazards.

Which is why they shouldn't go for that, and attempt some of the things Quantum suggested. Similarly, breaking all the mages fingers mid-spell casting tends to work wonders for breaking concentration.

Or simply putting noise into their heads without trying to do bidirectional communication.

Also, if anti-magic 'is' (as in, anti-magic exists in a Tonorion's body), a psi master can manipulate that energy and use it against a mage.

Likewise, if there is any kind of anti-psi interference, a mage can either find it or MAKE it exist...

Malahite wrote:

Raveolution wrote:

A mage has to hide completely in "what is not" to stay away from an epic psi master. A psi person has to get inside that mage's head beforehand and say "you forgot your magic" or "you want to attack yourself." Getting inside may pose certain... hazards.

Which is why they shouldn't go for that, and attempt some of the things Quantum suggested. Similarly, breaking all the mages fingers mid-spell casting tends to work wonders for breaking concentration.

I find your ideas intruiging and would like to subscribe to your newsletter, Malahite.

"Abracad-" *CRUNCH* "-Aiiiiiiiieeeeee!"

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Malahite wrote:

Raveolution wrote:

A mage has to hide completely in "what is not" to stay away from an epic psi master. A psi person has to get inside that mage's head beforehand and say "you forgot your magic" or "you want to attack yourself." Getting inside may pose certain... hazards.

Which is why they shouldn't go for that, and attempt some of the things Quantum suggested. Similarly, breaking all the mages fingers mid-spell casting tends to work wonders for breaking concentration.

I find your ideas intruiging and would like to subscribe to your newsletter, Malahite.

"Abracad-" *CRUNCH* "-Aiiiiiiiieeeeee!"

Yanking their tongue out of their mouth is also effective.

Another fun thing to work with against mages is, if you recognize / mind read the spell to be something explosive or reflective, make a Psionic barrier around the hostile mage themselves. "Go ahead, cast the fireball. I won't even move or attack you. Let 'er rip!"

Both of those solutions are pretty good, too.

I'm wondering what kind of control a telekinetic would need to make an airtight 'bubble' around someone. Putting one around a mage's body, or even just their head, would be another effective tactic.

"Okay, let's see if you can get that spell off before you pass out due to oxygen deprivation."

Of course, mages have just as many ways to deal with a psionic; I think creativity would be just as important as power in situations like these.

"So, you're a Class 10 Telepath, eh? Very impressive. You know what I have to say to that? Ray of Confusion."

Between a mage and psionic who really knew what they were doing, it'd be something like a chess game. With superpowers.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Between a mage and psionic who really knew what they were doing, it'd be something like a chess game. With superpowers.

Psyker would have the advantage of pre-cog / mind reading, but the Mage could make white noise or use chaotic magic.