On magic

Don't forget, a growling stomach is the perfect defense against paradoxes.

You know the first thing you learn in Felarya is not magic or fighting skill or skill to survive. It's just to RUN

Going to revive this, because people have presented some interesting viewpoints; some of which I agree with, some of which I do not. I am going to apologize in advance if it sounds like I am bashing or lecturing anyone, because it's not my intent. That being said, I'd like to talk about Magic and You.

I think there are some good ideas in this thread, but that most of you are missing the point. I know that's going to come off as arrogant, but bear with me for a moment. Cypress and Gregole both said things I agree with very strongly:

Cypress wrote:

hmmm very interesting indeed. However I think what makes Felarya the place that it is is that it seems to be unrestricted to one 'dogma' of magics or science. undoubtedly this will work for parts, but I don't think it can really be used as an end all description of Felaryan magics. especially with constant influx of new magics from countless worlds. there is mysticism in every nook and cranny and i think a lot of it would defy proper classification despite best efforts to that effect.

GREGOLE wrote:

Second of all, this thread is acting as though elemental magic is some greater representation of how magic in general works. I don't care for that, which is kinda the point I'm making here.

Elemental magic is not and should not be viewed as a greater representation of how magic in general works, or even taken as a significant representation of magic at all. The only thing it should be taken as is one (or more!) possible system out of an infinite number of systems for manipulating what we call magic. With all the worlds that connect to Felarya, it would be ridiculous to assume that there is some universal standard that all element-based systems of magic follow; Instead, each of them should be considered a distinct flavor of magic, with strengths and advantages that may not necessarily be equal.

A fire elementalist native to Felarya and a fire elementalist who just arrived through a portal may approach magic in entirely different ways. Maybe the Felaryan's spells are useless against water elementals and water-based magic, while the visiting fire mage is capable of obliterating a water elemental on sight, but is defenseless against a fire elemental. If you want to design a system of elemental magic, you need to define both the basic elements conceptually, as well as what can be accomplished with them inside that framework.

When you do so, though, consider that the system of magic you are designing is not what "magic" actually is. What you are creating is just a construct for the manipulation and application of magic. It's a subclass of a subclass of magic, and more or less entirely subjective to its users. As far as what magic actually is and how it works, pretty much any type of magic you can possibly think of will fall under one of three categories. Functional Magic, Semi-Functional Magic, and Non-Functional magic. These are the three basic 'types' of magic that every myth, legend, story, game, or other piece of literature uses in one form or another.

Explanation follows, after a short break for rantiness.

Okay, I am back. Starting in reverse order, with my least favorite type of magic:

Non-Functional Magic is the “A wizard did it!” or “It’s Magic!” type of magic, commonly found in fairytales, movies, myths, etc. It’s magic without explanation, rules, rhyme, or reason. If you’re using Non-Functional Magic (or even worse, the target of the same), expect… well, anything. Non-Functional Magic doesn’t have to make any kind of sense at all, or apologize for doing the blatantly impossible, because “It’s Magic!”. That’s what it does.

Sometimes it has a heavy price for using it, sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes you recite the spell perfectly, and still have your head explode, or your tongue turn purple, or whatever. “It’s Magic!”, so these things happen. Particularly if you happen to be an apprentice, or below some arbitrarily defined level of “skill”, or hell, maybe the magic just plain hates you. The only real rule that applies to any form of Non-Functional Magic is: There are no rules. Personally, I hate Non-Functional Magic with a passion; more often than not, it’s used as a Deus Ex Machina by lazy writers. As with all things, there are some exceptions (which tend to be excellent), but they are few and far between. Magic as a raw, unbridled universal force that the greatest of mages strain to manipulate is an example of this; basically, the highest form of “High Magic”.

Moving on…

Semi-Functional Magic is the middle ground between Non-Functional and Functional Magic. This is magic that usually has rules, and tends to be fairly reliable. You can cast a spell the exact same way over and over again, and the results are almost always the same. Almost. Sometimes, for whatever reason (nth dimensional imps, improper celestial alignment, Magic is having a bad hair day, your patron deity is sleeping off a hangover, whatever), the spell fails.

When that happens, Semi-Functional Magic goes from acting like Functional Magic to acting like Non-Functional Magic- not only did you screw the spell, the spell screws you. Just like Non-Functional Magic, anything can happen with botched Semi-Functional Magic. One moment you’re casting a low-level healing spell, and the next thing you know? You just fell through a dimensional/trans-universal gate and landed on your butt in Felarya (or Hell. Or the random demiplane/universe of the magic’s choosing). The spell you were trying to cast had nothing at all to do with what wound up happening, but hey… “It’s Magic!” If you are a magic user who is typically satisfied with the reliability of your spells and your level of power, but really wishes random crazy magical events would stop happening in your general vicinity, you are using Semi-Functional magic.

Saving the best for last, will be back right after a break from our sponsors!

Karbo wrote:

( ohh just thought of an appropriate type of magic for Felaryan native : vore magic )

Vore magic! I’m liking the hell out of this idea! But what kind of spells would it have? Obviously spells that help you eat people, but it should have more then that. Like spells that aid in digestion. And let us not forget to add the “cover them in chocolate sauce” spell.
I think this would make a great school of magic to add to the Felarya RPG!

The most interesting type (in my opinion, anyways) of magic is Functional Magic. Functional Magic comes in a billion and one different flavors, some of which are nearly identical, and some of which can be pretty unique. If you’re a magic user, and you know exactly what you can and can not accomplish with magic, you are using either Semi-Functional or Functional Magic. If there are “Laws of Magic” or “Rules of Magic” and you can occasionally bend them when the situation calls for it (clash with archenemy, battle to prevent the end of the world as we know it, pretty much any other dramatic moment), then whatever system of magic you’re using is a type of Semi-Functional Magic. If the “Rules of Magic” are inviolable, absolute, pigs-will-fly-out-of-your-rear-before-you-manage-to-break-them, then you’re using a form of Functional Magic.

Functional Magic can range in power from from simple hedge magic and cantrips, all the way up to the universe-destroying ultimate spells. It can also vary in scope as well, but most Functional Magic systems tend to have their own divisions and fields of specialization. For example, the entire arcane magic system used by wizards and sorcerers in AD&D is one Functional Magic framework, distinct from the other Functional Magic framework used by divine spellcasters. AD&D arcane magic is divided into eight schools: Alteration, Divination, Invocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Enchantment, Conjuration, and Abjuration. Some of the schools are subdivided even further from there, which is how their elemental “schools” work.

In addition, while there is nothing to prevent a single mage from learning spells from multiple or even all schools, there is (in AD&D, anways) a system of benefits and penalties for choosing to specialize in a particular school of magic. This includes having spells from the opposing school “locked” to the caster, preventing them from learning them (or even using magical items created by that type of magic). The one thing all of these schools have in common is that they are all the end result of the design process, and not a “greater representation of how magic works” (to use Gregole’s words) in and of themselves. One could make the argument that a 9th school of magic in AD&D would be just choosing not to specialize, and pursuing magic in all of its forms; in effect, you are choosing to practice the AD&D version of High Magic.

Great. So, what’s my point? Well, if you consider how the spells and magic work (under a Functional Magic system) in pretty much any medium, you’ll see that everything falls under one or more fairly broad categories in terms of how they actually work. Some of the major classes of Functional Magic are the following:

Living Magic (sometimes called Wild Magic). Magic (the force itself, whatever it actually IS) as a living, breathing entity. It has its own will, it comes and goes as it pleases, and you can’t actually make it do anything… but you can give it a nudge in the right direction, or ask really nicely and maybe it will help out. In some forms, Living Magic can be sort of like The Force in Star Wars; in others, it can be wild and unpredictable, or devious and calculating. If you are calling on the Universe itself for help, and/or it actually talks to you, you are using some type of Living Magic. Although unpredictable and honestly, uncontrollable, Living Magic is distinct from Non-Functional Magic in one way; While extremely bizarre and nonsensical things sometimes/often/always happen to you, they aren’t happening for no reason at all. There is a reason why they happen, you just don’t know it and might not even be able to understand it.

Innate Magic (sometimes called Inherent Magic). You were born with powers beyond the understanding of mortals. Or perhaps not. The point is, it isn’t so much that you know magic, as it is that you are magic. For whatever reason, there’s something about you that has magical qualities/properties; maybe your eyes can see in absolute darkness as though it were noon on a sunny and cloudless day. You can teleport to any spot within your line of sight, or your breath makes magical spells unravel. Whatever the case, the abilities granted by Innate Magic can not be taught or granted to others, unless there are specific mitigating circumstances; it’s an ability everyone of your species has, or a genetically inherited trait, or the organ or biological feature responsible for the ability is somehow transplanted/grafted to another person. Innate/Inherent Magic is always rooted in a particular feature of a person- their soul, their eyes, their heart, their genes, etc.

Although it typically involves a specific ability or specific set of abilities rather than defined spellcasting abilities, sometimes this can be a rare system of magic that is used or can only be used by a specific group of people. This is one of the few types of magical abilities/skills that is inheritable. Contrary to popular fiction, having parents who were archmages does not mean that you are going to be a spell-flinging badass yourself. Magic doesn’t work that way, except when it does; If your parents were archmages, and you were born under a rare celestial conjunction, and there’s a prophecy about you saving the world, AND you manage to learn magic very quickly despite no prior training whatsoever… chances are you just hit the Innate Magic jackpot, son. So, you were born with awesome powers and you’re wondering what the downside is, right?

Well, one of three things is going to happen to you: 1) Other people envy you, because you’re all that and a bag of chips. Expect not to get invited to parties, but you probably don’t have to worry about much more than passive-aggressive hostility and resentment. 2) Other people hate and fear you, because you’re a freak with unholy powers and/or better than them in every way. Watch out for angry mobs with a penchant for bonfires and pitchforks. 3) Other people envy your power… and have decided to take it for themselves. Watch out for evil cults, priests/priestesses of dark gods, body harvesters, and pretty much anyone else who might want to ritually sacrifice you, cut you up for spell components, or slice out your organs and extremities so they can implant them in their own body. Hey, you KNEW there was going to be a downside, right?

Alchemy. Yep, potions, elixirs, transmutation, reinforcement and enhancement of physical objects. Alchemy is Magical Chemistry 101, although it can be used as either a standalone system of magic, or integrated with other types of magic to create a composite system. Very common in conjunction with Hermetic magical systems, or eastern-based systems like Onmyoudou. Alchemy isn’t only “magical chemistry”, that’s just the basic theme of it. Pretty much any spell you can think of can be turned into a potion (or not, depending on the rules for that particular system). Quaff a high-level potion, and suddenly you can travel between planes of existence. The big drawbacks to any form of Alchemy (except the Full Metal Alchemist type, from what I’ve been told) is that it tends to require a lot of preparation… and trying to gather the reagents can and will end your life. Protip: If your alchemical formulae call for fairy wings, go back to the drawing board and figure out a way around it. Trust me, it’s better in the long run.

Artifact Magic (also known as Item-based or Device-based Magic). So, you can’t actually use magic yourself, meaning that you can’t cast spells. But you come from a long line of blacksmiths, some of whom have crafted legendary weapons. Swords for ancient Kings, man. Or maybe your people have been making magical items and trinkets for thousands of years and selling them for fun and profit. Whatever the case, you might not be able to throw fireballs, but you know how to make something that can. You are the (non-steampunk) fantasy equivalent of a mad scientist, inventor, or tinkerer. Artifact-based magic tends to be a bit more complex and… well, more “scientific” (for magic) than other magical systems. Sometimes, when developed far enough, you’ll find analogues for many types of technology under systems like these, which means that pseudo-scientific jargon may apply. The major advantage of artifact-based magic systems is that they are reliable and solid, assuming you know what the item does and how to use it. Typically, there’s no chance of miscasting or botching a spell, so long as you point the business end of the sword/wand/staff/whatever in the right direction; although if the artifact is damaged or cursed, you are basically playing Russian Roulette every time you use it. The downsides to artifact-based magic are the breakage, like previously mentioned; in addition, it tends to take a lot of preparation and hard work to craft magical items (particularly if they are of any significant power). Finally, the power isn’t actually yours, you’re just borrowing it. If something happens to the item (misplaced, stolen, broken, destroyed, develops a mind of its own), you are in trouble.

Thaumaturgy (also known as “Let’s Make a Deal”, see: Theurgy). So, it’s like this. You can’t really do much in the way of casting spells, but you like to read books. You found an ancient tome bound in human skin, and although it took you a while to figure out how to properly pronounce the words through all the bloodstains, you managed to reach out and touch someone. Thaumaturgy/Theurgy is all about knowing the right (or the wrong!) people. You decide to worship Bobo the Monkey God, and in turn, he lends you some of his divine power and lets you cast spells, or teaches you Monkey Fist Kung-Fu, or lets you summon King Kong to do your bidding. Or maybe you’re a tribal shaman, and you’re down with the local forest spirits, or the Great Animal Totem Spirits.

Whatever the case is, your style of magic involves dealing with supernatural beings in some context, and reaching some kind of understanding. Sometimes it involves a rigid contract, spiritual bond, a pledge to look out for the spirit/god/demon’s interests on your plane of existence, or maybe you just asked politely and they thought you were cool. Heck, maybe you’re just a black-hearted bastard with enough mystical muscle to make them do what you say, forget that asking nicely crap. Summoning magic, spells of binding, and Divine magic in AD&D all fall under the category of Thaumaturgy. Thaumaturgy is often linked in with other types of magic in a particular system, but it can be used standalone; Summoners in Final Fantasy games are an example of Thaumaturgy specialists.

Upside to Thaumaturgy? It can be absurdly powerful; assuming you know what you’re doing, stay on the good side of your patron/patrons, and they are willing to back you up… you are as powerful as your patron is. The downsides: 1) You are only as powerful as your patron lets you be. 2) There is no such thing as “no strings attached”. Expect to be inconvenienced at their leisure. Also, you do not want to tell them “No.” Trust me on this. 3) Okay, just because the spell says that you can call up the Lord of Destruction to smite your enemies? That doesn’t mean that you can control him, or understand the Elder Speech, or even survive long enough to introduce yourself. Think about what waking up an ancient being of unimaginable power actually entails, and why getting a unsolicited phone calls when you thought your number was unlisted ticks people off. Seriously, you don’t want to be that guy, when the party you’re annoying can smite you.

Ley Magic (also called Force Magic). “High Magic” sometimes falls under this category. You aren’t casting spells by rote or formula; If you’re a user of Ley Magic, you are grasping the raw energies or threads of Magic itself and weaving them as you will to accomplish… well, pretty much whatever you want. You might be capable of nothing more than any other mage around, or you might be an unstoppable God of Rock- er, Magic. The energy of magic ebbs and flows, waxes and wanes, and you can not only perceive it, but actually directly interact with it. Spellcasting with Ley Magic can be a clumsy, unrefined sort of thing, or it can be a fanciful, “Look, I’m playing music on the threads of the Universe!” affair. If the type of magic you use is extraordinarily effective in certain places and less effective or powerless in others, you have a personal place of power where you are strongest, and you can zip across the world traveling by ley lines; you might just be using a form of Ley Magic.

Abilities common (but not exclusive) to Ley Magic are metamagical effects; Being able to directly alter the effect of a spell and bend it to your will. Maybe you can make it last longer, shorten the duration of a harmful curse, negate a spell altogether, amplify a spell’s power or range, make your spells more difficult for someone else to dispel, etc. The advantages and disadvantages of Ley Magic vary greatly depending on the rules of that particular system- sometimes the caster is powerless away from certain places, or in certain “dead spots”, or maybe their magic doesn’t work in alternate universes, or perhaps they have to go through a certain period to attune themselves to the ley lines on that world, etc.

Rule-based Magic: Rule-based Magic is Functional Magic to the nth degree. The rules are even more important than in other types, because you either follow them, or one of three things happens: The magic either doesn’t work, it backfires horribly on you, or you invent something new and get to name it after yourself (“Pulling a Bigsby”). Rule-based Magic systems are heavily traditional, with most spells being developed through centuries of trial and error; The only people who break the rules are the maverick wizards who wind up eventually discovering something new and/or blowing themselves up. “Experimentation within bounds” is usually socially acceptable, but the “Hey, you know what would be cool?” approach to things tends not to go over well with the stuffy archmage council types (or pretty much any magical figure of authority). Like all other general types of magic, Rule-based Magic can be combined with others to form a particular system. Generally, Rule-based systems tend to be more advanced than other systems of magic (like tribal shamanism), and when most people think of “mages” or “wizards”, they are imagine some form of rule-based magic. Things like Hermetic Magic, I Ching, Onmyoudou, Kabbalah, Voodoun, AD&D Arcane Magic (in fact, most fantasy magic) are all mainly Rule-based Magic systems.

Okay, that's enough spamming for me. It really didn't look that big in Wordpad, sorry.

zalzas wrote:

Karbo wrote:

( ohh just thought of an appropriate type of magic for Felaryan native : vore magic )

Vore magic! I’m liking the hell out of this idea! But what kind of spells would it have? Obviously spells that help you eat people, but it should have more then that. Like spells that aid in digestion. And let us not forget to add the “cover them in chocolate sauce” spell.
I think this would make a great school of magic to add to the Felarya RPG!

Here you go, some sample "Vore magic" spells, most of which need no explanation:

Hasten Digestion
Slow Digestion (for the predators that like that kind of thing)
Alter Taste: Sweet
Alter Taste: Savory
Imbue Flavor: Strawberry
Imbue Flavor: Chocolate
Trip Prey (for those darn runners)
Summon Buffet (Group teleportation spell)
I Saw It First! (Some sort of protection spell. Cast it on your prey to keep other predators from snatching him/her!)

That's it, off the top of my head.

Wow !

VERY interesting take on magic here !
This seriously makes me wanting to go and establish things once and for all concerning magic on Felarya

And it's also very nicely explained. Superb work !

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Here you go, some sample "Vore magic" spells, most of which need no explanation:

Hasten Digestion
Slow Digestion (for the predators that like that kind of thing)
Alter Taste: Sweet
Alter Taste: Savory
Imbue Flavor: Strawberry
Imbue Flavor: Chocolate
Trip Prey (for those darn runners)
Summon Buffet (Group teleportation spell)
I Saw It First! (Some sort of protection spell. Cast it on your prey to keep other predators from snatching him/her!)

That's it, off the top of my head.

Wow, I’m liking theses spells a lot! Thanks for coming up with them, I wonder if Vivian knows vore magic? *runs off to find out*

Karbo wrote:

Wow !

VERY interesting take on magic here !
This seriously makes me wanting to go and establish things once and for all concerning magic on Felarya

And it's also very nicely explained. Superb work !

Thank you, I am glad someone enjoyed it. I thought I might have gone a little overboard (came out way more like a rant than I had intended it to, so I tried to lighten it up a little with humor).

I used to do a lot of writing and tabletop RPGing, and a lot of my design philosophy is in the stuff I just posted. I have been spending a lot of time creating a magic system that will be used in one of my fics (which I sidelined temporarily to start another series, the first chapter of which should be finished soon), and it is going to mostly be a blend of Alchemy and Rule-based magic.

That one is classified for now , but I did come up with a couple of contrasting examples of variations on the same types of magic while I was brainstorming earlier. Ironically, one of them involves King Trazik (who you mentioned in a post this morning) and would make a pretty good basis for a story on its own; may develop it further later. I will post them if people are interested; if not, I think I will just shut up now.

zalzas wrote:

Wow, I’m liking theses spells a lot! Thanks for coming up with them, I wonder if Vivian knows vore magic? *runs off to find out*

You are welcome. Not quite sure if Vivian needs magic like that, but I think I will let you be the one to ask. Good luck with that.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

That one is classified for now , but I did come up with a couple of contrasting examples of variations on the same types of magic while I was brainstorming earlier. Ironically, one of them involves King Trazik (who you mentioned in a post this morning) and would make a pretty good basis for a story on its own; may develop it further later. I will post them if people are interested; if not, I think I will just shut up now.

You can post them, it can be interesting

Okay, here are a few of the examples I came up with, to show how drastic the differences between the same basic “field” of magic can be. Given the original topic of the thread, I came up with one for Elemental magic, one for Necromancy, and one for Illusion magic. Again, I apologize in advance for the length and if I come off as arrogant, condescending, lecturing, etc.; That really is not my intention, I just want to share my thoughts and hopefully get people to really start considering and discussing the possibilities.

Example #1 involves four “fire” Elementalists, all from different worlds. Here’s the background on them. This one is the longest, and the main reason I was hesitant to post it at all. Please humor me.

Elementalist A is a human (native to Felarya), from a small but thriving village at the foot of Mont Vylkren. His village is located in a small valley in the heart of the Pyrale Mountains, and is one of the few places in the region where one can find flourishing vegetation amidst the lava flows and searing stone. For centuries, “A’s” tribe has lived comfortably in one of the harshest environments in Felarya, and amazingly (for Felaryans) they are friendly and welcoming to outsiders, often showing hospitality to adventurers and explorers who come to challenge the mountains or search for artifacts in the ruins.

According to tribal legends, long ago the village was on the verge of being wiped out, due to attacks by elementals and fire succubi wandering down from the mountains. The chieftain’s young daughter, using a salve her people derived from the ice flowers that blossom in the volcanic region, scaled Mont Vylkren armed with nothing more than a flower. The legend says that she actually made it to the caldera of the volcano and threw the flower over the edge as a peace offering. In this manner, she impressed King Trazix with her courage and earned his favor. When she descended the volcano and returned to her people, it was with a smile and eyes that flickered like flame, ever flowing between shades of yellow, orange, and red.

Ever since then, it has been a rite of passage among “A’s” tribe to take an offering of friendship (usually some sort of fruit, vegetable, flower, or crafted object) up the summit and throw it into the volcano. It is a test of courage, endurance, and wit; most who do attempt it are never seen again. They fall prey to one of the many creatures who inhabit the volcano, or perish from exhaustion, or stumble into unstable terrain, flames, lava, or sulfuric gasses. For the average person, you would have to be insane to even attempt it. However, those who successfully reach the summit return with eyes like fire, a high tolerance for the extreme heat of the region, and the ability to use powerful fire magic.

Elementalist B is a naga (also native to Felarya), from the naga tribe that lives to the north of the Giant Tree. “B” is a young naga, who just developed her elemental affinity for fire; she has no formal magic training, and doesn’t even cast “spells”. That’s not the way her people do things! Instead, her fire magic is more of a raw connection to fire and the ability to control it instinctively. While the nagas in her tribe do sometimes tutor one another, it is very informal and generally accepted that everyone will learn magic at their own pace and in their own way.

Elementalist C is a non-Felaryan elf, from a world with a moderate level of magic. There, people only use elemental magic; there isn’t any other kind! It is impossible for anyone to manipulate the raw essence of magic, so things like Archmages who have learned every magical discipline are nothing but myths on “C’s” world. In fact, it has been proven again and again that it is impossible for a person to master more than one element in their lifetime, so magic on “C’s” world has become heavily divided into hundreds of elemental categories; each one representing a specific aspect of the universe as they understand it. Some of their elements include: Shadow, Light, Fire, Sound, Lightning, Metal, and Time.

“C” has been a fire mage for hundreds of years, and is an expert with her element, perfectly familiar with both its strengths and weaknesses, and comfortable with what she can and cannot accomplish using her magic.

Elementalist D is a human from a high-magic world, where magic universities are devoted to studying magic in all of its forms. “D” is actually an instructor at one of these institutes, and extremely knowledgeable on the five elements that exist in his world: Earth, Fire, Air, Water, and Aether. Each of the five elements has its own attributes and specialties, but most elemental spells actually involve the interaction of two or more elements to achieve a specific effect; For this reason, there are no “fire elementalists” or “water elementalists” on “D’s” world. You are either an elemental mage, in which case you study and use all five of the elements; or you are using some other type of magic. “D” can not even conceive of someone being able to only use magic based on a single element- it would be like being able to perceive only one color out of the visible light spectrum, and everything else being invisible to you.

Now that we have our (completely hypothetical) subjects, we ask them a few questions:

1) Tell us the basics on how your magic works?

“A”: “Thaumaturgy. Respecting the spirits is very important to my people, and some of us become good friends with the elementals living in the Pyrale Mountains. Because of this bond, King Trazix allows us some influence over the element of fire. It is a privilege and a responsibility we take seriously; those who anger him or betray his trust tend to have it taken back.

… Those are the lucky ones.”

“B”: “Um… Innate, I guess? Don’t get me wrong, there are some Nagas who are just as good as anyone else when it comes to using magic, but we don’t really think too much about it. It’s kind of silly, the way the rest of you spend all that time researching and scribbling spells on scrolls. I don’t need any magic words to use what I have, I just… well, I just do. Most of us are like that, I think- don’t take my word for it, though- some of us just wind up developing a certain kind of magic, others never do. We don’t really know why, or even really care, it’s just the way it is. Like I said, we tend not to think too much about it.”

“C”: “Elemental magic is Rule-based magic, forget what the rest of them say. There are strict rules that govern an elements use and interactions with other elements, including a whole set of generative, co-dependant, and destructive relationships. Fire can generate Light, which can generate Shadow. Lightning can destroy Wood and generate Fire, while Fire can destroy Wood and generate Earth (Ash). Some elements are better at certain things than others, and you just can’t accomplish some things with certain elements, but in general it’s the experience and the creativity of the caster that matters.”

“D”: “What kind of elementalist only uses one element, anyways? There are some exceptions, but real elemental magic works mostly on the Ley/Force principle. ‘Elemental magic’ is mainly just a difference in viewpoint to begin with; Magic is Magic, most of the differences are due to a cultural perspective in terms of how you learned it. We have since developed different models for the universe that are more commonly accepted than the Theory of Five Elements, but everything in the Universe can still be related to by the interactions between Earth, Fire, Air, Water, and Aether. Some things, people, and places are more strongly attuned to a particular element, and some oppose or resist a particular element… but to say something like “Water beats Fire” is ridiculous. Magic is a complex and versatile force, not Rock-Paper-Scissors.”


2) What defines your “element”? Where does the line start, and where does it stop?

“A”: “Heat. It’s a spiritual connection; The heat that warms the depths of the earth, the blood flowing through our body, the passion that moves our souls. I have some influence over lava, rock, soil, flame. I can move heat into or draw it from an object, or even the air around me. I can’t affect water directly- I think it has something to do with King Trazix and the Queen of the water elementals not being on very good terms. My magic just fizzles out when it comes to water, but I can get around it; I can’t boil the water in a cup, but I can heat the cup until the water inside of it boils. If I ran into a water elemental, I would probably be in trouble, but I might be able come up with something on the spot. Or I might just get eaten. It happens.”

“B”: “Um… could you rephrase the question? Oh! Okay, uh, just fire, I guess? Well, and lightning. I guess it’s the spark that’s important, you just sorta ignite something and let it go. I don’t really have a problem dealing with water magic, it just comes down to which of us is stronger, really. I actually have more trouble dealing with another fire mage or fire creature, since I’m not immune to fire myself. Getting wet compared to getting burned? Yeah, kinda obvious which one I’d prefer.”

“C”: “… That makes no sense at all! “A” can manipulate earth and “B” can manipulate lightning?! That’s not fire magic!” *frothing rage* “Okay, I’m better now. Really. Fire is… Fire. Heat, molecules in motion, that sort of thing. You get the general idea. There’s some things I can do with that, some things I can’t. Nothing like hitting someone with lightning.” *mutters*

“D”: “This is ridiculous. Like I have said before, I don’t have “an element”. That is not how elemental magic works… at least for anyone past kindergarten. The elements aren’t quite so narrowly defined as these three make them out to be. If you must know, the “Fire” element represents everything in the Universe that is of a forceful, energetic, moving nature. Heat, flames, lightning, and light. Metabolism, body heat, predatory animals, and photosynthesis. Passion, motivation, anger, and ambition. Insisting that Fire and Lightning are two separate elements is like cutting off your arm and insisting that it is a separate organism from the rest of your body. The elements just aren’t that narrowly defined. No one element trumps another automatically; if I attack someone with a fireball spell and they defend with an ice barrier… I won’t win because I used fire against their ice. I’ll win because I’m stronger and more skilled than they are, or I’ll lose because the reverse is true.”

3) Okay, some disagreement on that point. Moving on… what is something that is impossible or nearly impossible to do with your magic, and what can you do that is particularly impressive.

“A”: “Well, I can’t fly. I can’t talk to spirits or anything like that, either- spirits of the dead, that is. None of my people can; our magic just doesn’t do that kind of stuff. No trans-dimensional portals, no raising the dead, no controlling the weather. Too bad, because we don’t get a whole lot of rain where I live.

What we can do… we have spells for healing, teleportation, divination, scrying, combat (obviously), soil enrichment, and navigation. I’m pretty good with healing spells myself; I know it’s not the first thing you think of when you picture fire magic, but when you’re feeling run down and exhausted being able to draw strength from the heat around you really helps! Messing with water elementals is right out- at least directly. My people have a way of dealing with fire-resistant and fire-immune creatures that works pretty well as long as there’s enough of us around. We just pull all the heat out of the air around them, and give them a good freezing. It’s pretty darn uncomfortable, from what I hear!”

“B”: “Swimming in lava and taking a nap in a raging wildfire is pretty impossible for me; I’m not a Fire Succubus, I’d get cooked! I don’t really have any “spells” that would help me survive in a situation like that, although I could try and redirect flames away from me. I can’t teleport or anything like that, either (I’m kind of jealous). On the other hand, I don’t have to worry about staying on a fire elemental’s good side, and my magic doesn’t fizzle out in water. Guess that counts for something! Y’know, I haven’t really thought much about exactly what I can and can’t do. Ask me again later!”

“C”: “I can make trans-universal portals.” *smug* “It is just a matter of scribing a proper circle and the right runes, and carefully channeling my fire magic to burn a gate through the boundary between universes. Don’t worry, it’s temporary; reality fixes itself after a while. Usually.

I can also create thermonuclear explosions, something “B” might want to keep in mind. I see how she keeps looking at me and licking her lips!” *coughs nervously* “What’s impossible for me… well, the Fire element can not be used for healing. At least, not where I come from. We just don’t have fire healing spells. Or soil enrichment, for that matter. To accomplish something like that would require the kind of elementalist who specializes in it, or at least cooperating with one. If I wanted to create a volcano, I’d go find an Earth mage and the two of us working together could do it. Teleportation… is tricky, but not impossible. Air mages and Lightning mages tend to have better transportation spells than we Fire mages do.”

“D”: “You can’t create a portal between dimensions with fire magic alone. I guarantee it. Now, I’m not saying that it’s impossible. Nothing is impossible with magic; but that would require an extremely complex spell, and I would have to weave together at least three elements to manage even a basic portal. You can’t just “burn a hole” through a dimension with a bonfire! That’s absurd. It requires manipulating a lot of energy, folding the fabric of space, not to mention being able to look across the universal boundaries in the first place to even find your destination… and furthermore…”

*It was around this point that “C” finished drawing the runic array around “D’s” chair and sent him on an all-expenses paid trip to Erebus, just to prove his point. Unfortunately, he forgot to pay attention to “B”, quickly becoming a snack for the hungry naga. By this point, “A’s” chair was already empty. Teleportation spells are handy indeed.*

Four different types of elemental magic, each with differing viewpoints and capabilities. Each one is the ‘right’ one for its user, and perhaps they all work on Felarya despite their differences. Maybe “D” would be able to replicate any spell one of the others did, given that the paradigm his magic system uses is more expansive than the others.

Perhaps through observation or instruction “B” could learn how to use some of the spells “C” knows, or at least crudely imitate them. But even if that is the case, it might not necessarily work in the reverse- Just because “B” can do what “C” can do, does not mean “C” can do what “B” can. There could be a whole set of limitations and advantages that are strictly based on the individual’s perception of magic, or his/her ability to perform magic, or some other internal or external factor. It's worth considering how it works, why it works, what works differently, and what doesn't work at all... at least, that's just what I think.

Annnnnnnnd... think it is time to shut up for a while again.

It was very funny
But I want remark something, "A","B","C" and "D" are all used a ruled system of magic.
In Thaumaturgy, the laws are given by the divinity for A it's lord Trazix for this case but lord Trazix is not different from "B" ,"C" and "D" because Lord Trazix's magic can be innate, Ley or ruled after all he is the teacher of A.

"B" even if it's innate for her she can learn by herself or being taugh by her family about his power and how to control it, in that case she follows her own rule.

"C" and "D" study magic in two different countries, so their magic is strongly influenced by their society, culture or religion (teachings wrote by their priest or their divinity)

In the four case they all learn how to use magic from a "teacher", the difference is their environnment and their experience.

"A" learn from a very old and experienced entity, "B" start to learn with her parent and learn by herself "C" and "D" comes from the knowledge of their worlds, but they all manipulate the same thing the "fire"

The only difference between them, it's how they learn to use fire, but nothing say they can learn from each others. B will discover things she doesn't expect about her power, A can speak to Trazix from his discover and developp with him new spell or artefacts. "C" with his discovery enter in the story of his world. And "D" can open his own school of magic or his religion after all his knowledge can rival Trazix.

A, B, C and D even if they use different way they all do the same thing, no matter how they call it they all manipulate fire. The words are different the content is the same.

All the category are linked they are no real difference between they all follow their own laws. The two major difference are the wild magic and the ruled magic, Thaumaturgy, alchemy, arterfact and ley magic are rules-based system why because there are no universal law of magic, and they all follow their own rule. Even someone claimind using wild magic, use semi-functionnal magic because he tries to control it but the result is not why he expects.

That was a great explanation !
Funny, lively, and you really got your point across here

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

But I want remark something, "A","B","C" and "D" are all used a ruled system of magic.
In Thaumaturgy, the laws are given by the divinity for A it's lord Trazix for this case but lord Trazix is not different from "B" ,"C" and "D" because Lord Trazix's magic can be innate, Ley or ruled after all he is the teacher of A.

All the category are linked they are no real difference between they all follow their own laws. The two major difference are the wild magic and the ruled magic, Thaumaturgy, alchemy, arterfact and ley magic are rules-based system why because there are no universal law of magic, and they all follow their own rule.

Yes and no. All four casters are using a system of magic with rules, but they are not all a "Rule-based" class of magic. And there is often a lot of overlap between them, but there is a difference between them all. I just am not sure I am doing a good job of explaining it.

All four systems having laws that are followed makes them types of Functional Magic. That is the first similiarity they all have in common, aside from the use of a fire element. The reason Thaumaturgy, Alchemy, Artifact, and Ley magic are not the same thing as Rule-based magic is because the class is determined by the source of the magic's power.

In Thaumaturgy/Theurgy, you derive power directly from a supernatural entity of some sort. They may very well set forth laws or restrictions you have to follow, with consequences should you break them... but that doesn't make Thaumaturgy the same as Rule-based magic. Those laws might be important, but they are not where your power is coming from; it is coming from the entity behind those rules. If the bond with the entity is the crucial factor, the magic primarily Thaumaturgy (and whatever else second).

Alchemy has the same nature; it is a very structured, rule-laden type of magic. But that doesn't make it Rule-based; the source of alchemy's power comes from the magical nature of the substances you are combining/transmuting/etc., and the various reactions between them. It is not the rules you followed that give an alchemic potion its power, it is the properties inherent to the components and the way they interact that does so.

Artifact-based magic is the main exception, because it tends to straddle the lines of all the other categories. But in general, you are using artifact magic if you are drawing your magic from an item, rather than another internal or external source. It doesn't matter if that item draws its power from an earth elemental you bound into it, or is tapping directly into a ley line, or was created in an alchemical forge. Those are all second to the fact that the magic is coming from an item.

In Ley magic, it is again the source that we're looking at. If you are tapping into fields of magical energy, a "hot spot", or otherwise drawing upon a location as the primary source of your power, it is ley magic. Whatever rules that particular system of magic has is secondary to where it is that you are getting your power.

Rule-based magic is called that not because it is magic that has rules, but because those rules are the source of the magic's power. Things like runic magic, where the runes have their own power regardless of who is casting them (a wizard, a toddler, Joe Q. Peasant); a "High Speech" type of magic where simply speaking the language itself results in spells being cast; or sympathetic magic like creating a voodoo doll of someone and sticking pins in it. All of these are types of Rule-based magic because the power of the magic lies in the rules and rituals involved.

With a rule-based system, anyone who meets certain qualifications (if there are any, there may not be) will be able to cast a spell if they follow the procedure correctly. Because it's in the procedure itself that the real power is. If you have to study and memorize detailed arcane formulae and geometric diagrams as though your very life depended on it and your life actually does depend on you getting it right, your magic is primarily a rule-based system. Regardless of whatever else applies.

This isn't to say that you can't have a magic system that crosses two or more categories; these classifications are just really general guidelines. For example, you can have an Innate/Thaumaturgy type of magic, where your family is born with the ability to summon spirits, and you manage to convince those spirits to provide you with some of their power as long as you keep them happy. But that would still not be a Rule-based system, because your magic derives from what you are, and the entities you've befriended, and not the rules they set upon you. You could do everything they tell you to, and they still might decide to bail on you; In that situation, you've broken no rules but the power is still gone, meaning that the rules weren't the deciding factor of the magic.

I hope that explains it better.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Even someone claimind using wild magic, use semi-functionnal magic because he tries to control it but the result is not why he expects.

You're slightly off the mark here. Wild magic can be similar to Semi-functional magic, and it can be nothing at all like Semi-functional magic, but it is not Semi-functional magic. You're focusing on the wrong key traits; it isn't a matter of occaisonal unexpected results. It's a matter of how those unexpected results manifest. If literally any random bizzare thing can happen, that isn't related in any way at all what you were trying to do, then that's Semi-functional magic.

If the unexpected result tends to relate to what you were attempting, or there's some highly complex pattern (that you may or may not understand) involved, or actual intelligent will behind it (you botch a spell, and wind up being teleported to the lair of the evil overlord along with 5 other people who just coincidentally have the exact skills neccessary to stop him from taking over the world)... then that's Living/Wild magic. The key trait there isn't so much being unpredictable as being uncontrollable; the magic does whatever it wants, it just might tend to really like your ideas most of the time.

Quote :

Rule-based magic is called not because it is magic that has rules, but because those rules are the source of the magic's power. Things like runic magic, where the runes have their own power regardless of who is casting them (a wizard, a toddler, Joe Q. Peasant); a "High Speech" type of magic where simply speaking the language itself results in spells being cast; or sympathetic magic like creating a voodoo doll of someone and sticking pins in it. All of these are types of Rule-based magic because the power of the magic lies in the rules and rituals involved.

The Voodoo is a religion.
This kind of thing has been observed in many shamanic forms in reality, I will explain something when I talking to you to magic I'm not calling magic from heroic fantasy or fiction but like as it appears in history of human at the begining magic was taught by a spiritual or surnatural entity. In reality shaman can draw their ability from both a law written by a god. In general a ritual describe a for of religion.

In reality, the mage to write the rule communicate with a spiritual entity.

Quote :

Rule-based magic is called not because it is magic that has rules, but because those rules are the source of the magic's power. Things like runic magic, where the runes have their own power regardless of who is casting them (a wizard, a toddler, Joe Q. Peasant); a "High Speech" type of magic where simply speaking the language itself results in spells being cast; or sympathetic magic like creating a voodoo doll of someone and sticking pins in it. All of these are types of Rule-based magic because the power of the magic lies in the rules and rituals involved.

With a rule-based system, anyone who meets certain qualifications (if there are any, there may not be) will be able to cast a spell if they follow the procedure correctly. Because it's in the procedure itself that the real power is. If you have to study and memorize detailed arcane formulae and geometric diagrams as though your very life depended on it and your life actually does depend on you getting it right, your magic is primarily a rule-based system. Regardless of whatever else applies.

This explanation from AD&D, but the problem to create the system they take it from many, shamanism art, polytheism religions,from different existing occult arts and paganism ritual. In general in arcane magic there is always an surnatural being who always to watch how the magic is use, it can be called the "god" of the magicians.

Quote :

In Thaumaturgy/Theurgy, you derive power directly from a supernatural entity of some sort. They may very well set forth laws or restrictions you have to follow, with consequences should you break them... but that doesn't make Thaumaturgy the same as Rule-based magic. Those laws might be important, but they are not where your power is coming from; it is coming from the entity behind those rules. If the bond with the entity is the crucial factor, the magic primarily Thaumaturgy (and whatever else second).

The shamanism doesn't really enter here why because, shamanism is not a religion the role of a Shaman in a tribe is not the role of the priest, the Shaman use the knowledge he learns from the different spirits of nature or ancestors to help his people of his tribe in their daily life, he is respected but not venerated. The totems and the ritual in shamanism is a mark of respect to them.

The theurgy as you refer you can consider it as the modern monotheism religion or sects, there is ritual too, but it depend of the gods. The priest don't draw his power only from his god, he can create a faith in their follower which allow him to heal them or torturate them I use here the description of the priest in Warcraft here. A priest can create his own religion, by example he finds a young naga with a strong innate magic, manipulate her mind and use as the symbol of his religion.

By example Saya and Aimi use Theurgy their power come from Kallisti but it's not the case of Sonya who is helped by the spirit of a former vampire Tania whose the magic system is a ruled system.

I will conclude by this point, the shaman, the druid, witch doctor can be considered as a tribal form of a mage or a wizzard, except the mage and the wizzard can decide to learn by themselves even the warnings

The difference between the "arcane magic" and the "divine magic", is their view about the world, in arcane magic you can control the difference force of the universe in condition you know what to do, contrary to "divine magic" Only their own "god" who creates the world and everything in the world is a representation of their power.

Edit little detail The runic at the origin was created by the druids and the scandinavian shamans.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

The Voodoo is a religion.

I know Vodou is a religion. I was using the pop-culture variety as an example.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

This kind of thing has been observed in many shamanic forms in reality, I will explain something when I talking to you to magic I'm not calling magic from heroic fantasy or fiction but like as it appears in history of human at the begining magic was taught by a spiritual or surnatural entity.

See, I am talking strictly in regards to magic as portrayed in works of fiction. As a writer, those are mainly the portrayals I am concerned about, aside from the influences of real world elements (culture, mythology, religious beliefs) involved. In terms of fiction, nearly all magic you encounter will fall into those categories I laid out (which I did not invent myself, I should add. I am just trying to explain them as best I can), simply because they play off of tropes long-established by writers.

It becomes very obvious when you take a detailed look at pretty much any fantasy novel, anime, comic book, or movie; unless a writer goes out of his or her way to avoid it, there are some elements which will almost always be present in a work of fiction. If you have a hero or a group of heroes, they will almost always make a journey and have adventures along the way to their main goal. It doesn't matter if it's the Epic of Gilgamesh, or Harry Potter, there's some themes that frequently reoccur in fiction (including cultural myths, for that matter).

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

In reality shaman can draw their ability from both a law written by a god. In general a ritual describe a for of religion.

In reality, the mage to write the rule communicate with a spiritual entity.

I disagree, but it is mostly an issue of wording. A shaman is not drawing anything from a law, unless it is the act of following the law itself that grants the power, and not active intervention by the spirits.

Spirit A says, "You humans are pretty cool. Here's a blessing, from now on anybody who flaps their arms like a bird can fly. Oh, but if you sneeze, you fall. Catch you all later."

Spirit B says, "I think I'll give you guys a chance. As long as you keep me happy, you can fly. You make me angry, you better have brought a parachute."

In both of these cases, there is a spirit, who is granting the shaman the ability to fly. Despite that, the first case is not the same thing as the second case.

In the first case, the power is in the law itself; something happens when people do a certain thing, and if they break the rule it enforces itself. Sure, a spirit is responsible for it, but that's the extent to which it is involved; it isn't actively watching for people to sneeze, since that's a condition for the "law".

In the second case, the decisive factor is the spirit itself. It is actively using its power on the shaman's behalf, which means that it's directly involved. "Keep me happy or else" isn't a law so much as a very "strongly worded suggestion". If the shaman goes against it, there isn't going to be an automated set of checks and balances kicking in. It will be the spirit personally taking action and making him wish he had kept up his end of the bargain.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

This explanation from AD&D, but the problem to create the system they take it from many, shamanism art, polytheism religions,from different existing occult arts and paganism ritual.

Much, much, much older than AD&D, actually. Most of what I've written applies to everything you just listed as well, particularly to occult arts and pagan rituals. Theurgy is a concept, not a specific magic system; I keep feeling like I'm having trouble getting that across, but I'm not sure if I can explain it any better. If you wanted to make a particular magic system for a shamanistic people, you wouldn't call it Theurgy, that would just be the classification it fell under, if the primary source of the magic's power was based on a relationship with spirits (or gods).

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

In general in arcane magic there is always an surnatural being who always to watch how the magic is use, it can be called the "god" of the magicians.

Not always. There are plenty of works of fiction that have magic without involving any gods or supernatural beings at all. In fact, there some that use pretty much every other class of functional magic aside from thaumaturgy. But Living magic and/or Ley magic seem to be the most frequent in those cases.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

The shamanism doesn't really enter here why because, shamanism is not a religion the role of a Shaman in a tribe is not the role of the priest, the Shaman use the knowledge he learns from the different spirits of nature or ancestors to help his people of his tribe in their daily life, he is respected but not venerated. The totems and the ritual in shamanism is a mark of respect to them.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Whatever the case is, your style of magic involves dealing with supernatural beings in some context, and reaching some kind of understanding. Sometimes it involves a rigid contract, spiritual bond, a pledge to look out for the spirit/god/demon’s interests on your plane of existence, or maybe you just asked politely and they thought you were cool.

Hate to quote myself, but... "Some kind of understanding" includes a relationship built on mutual respect, which is what most shamanistic and animistic cultures revolve around. I wasn't equating shamanism with religion (at least, not at first), which is why I put both Thaumaturgy and Theurgy in the original post.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

The theurgy as you refer you can consider it as the modern monotheism religion or sects, there is ritual too, but it depend of the gods. The priest don't draw his power only from his god, he can create a faith in their follower which allow him to heal them or torturate them I use here the description of the priest in Warcraft here. A priest can create his own religion, by example he finds a young naga with a strong innate magic, manipulate her mind and use as the symbol of his religion.

Theurgy is just the religious version of Thaumaturgy; if you're dealing with a god or gods (of anything), it's Theurgy. If it's just spirits, elementals, or any "lesser" supernatural entity (angels, demons, fairies, whatever), it's Thaumaturgy. Generally, I figured most "priests" who did things like that were doing them to fulfill the requirements of their deities, and not to gain mystical power themselves. I guess it's possible, but I never really considered it much.

You do need another example, though. Priests in Warcraft (non-night elves, anyways) don't draw power from their followers, they draw power from the Holy Light. Which is more or less a connection between themselves and the Universe, which makes it Living magic and not Theurgy. Night elf priests do worship the goddess Elune, though. Guess who used to spend way too much time playing WoW?

... Huh, just had a funny thought. The Giant Tree. 40-man raid, yes or no?

Back on topic, though... that is an excellent point about someone founding a religion based off a naga specially reared for the task. In the real world, we would call something like that a cult, but it really makes me wonder what kind of metaphysical repercussions that would have in Felarya. Very, very interesting example.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

By example Saya and Aimi use Theurgy their power come from Kallisti but it's not the case of Sonya who is helped by the spirit of a former vampire Tania whose the magic system is a ruled system.

Hmmm... also very interesting to consider.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

I will conclude by this point, the shaman, the druid, witch doctor can be considered as a tribal form of a mage or a wizzard, except the mage and the wizzard can decide to learn by themselves even the warnings

The difference between the "arcane magic" and the "divine magic", is their view about the world, in arcane magic you can control the difference force of the universe in condition you know what to do, contrary to "divine magic" Only their own "god" who creates the world and everything in the world is a representation of their power.

I don't know if I would neccessarily agree with that, but again, it depends on what layer of the problem you look at. On one level, all magic is the same. People are manipulating the same universal force(s). It's just the matter of context and application that is different, but those differences can range from minor to irreconcilable. Also, not all "gods" are creation deities. There are plenty of priests (both in fantasy and historically) who ritually worshipped deities that were neither world creators nor all-powerful. Heck, some of them (the deities) were even mortal at one point or another, which might be the end result of that example you gave.

I'll give you the point about the shaman, druid, witch doctor, mage, and wizard; with one caveat. They can be considered the tribal form of a mage or wizard, that is true. I personally don't consider them to be, but that's because I'm not big on the whole "all magic users are created equal" idea. I really think that even the most knowledgeable, all-powerful archmage will eventually run into a spell that some grubby little druid is casting that just stumps the heck out of the archmage; to the point that no matter what he tries, he just can not duplicate it.

But then, I'm of the opinion that perfection in anything (knowledge, art, magic, spiritual) is something that one can strive for, but never attain.

Quote :

Priests in Warcraft (non-night elves, anyways) don't draw power from their followers, they draw power from the Holy Light. Which is more or less a connection between themselves and the Universe, which makes it Living magic and not Theurgy. Night elf priests do worship the goddess Elune, though. Guess who used to spend way too much time playing WoW? Wink

It has been proved is not completely true with Paladin Blood Elf with the help of the archmage they take the power from a naaru (a holy creature) contrary to the classical paladin who serves the light. This fact shows the holy light is nothing more like the arcane.

The priest can pretend his power comes from his god is not completely true the rule of the spell is written by the god. If the spell fails it doesn't always evolve the god. The god gives some rule the priest can use.

In reality Theurgy is copyrighted ruled-base magic,in clear you can not say it's your power because but in clase you do not respect the contract I remove your power. But it's the case for any ruled based mage why because the great authority of magic can seal the power as the god dead.

Quote :

I disagree, but it is mostly an issue of wording. A shaman is not drawing anything from a law, unless it is the act of following the law itself that grants the power, and not active intervention by the spirits.

Spirit A says, "You humans are pretty cool. Here's a blessing, from now on anybody who flaps their arms like a bird can fly. Oh, but if you sneeze, you fall. Catch you all later."

Spirit B says, "I think I'll give you guys a chance. As long as you keep me happy, you can fly. You make me angry, you better have brought a parachute."

In that case the spirit "A" can come to save the shaman from B why it's not spirit "B" who allow the shamans to fly not B

Sorry guy it's not like shamanism because Omnyodou and the voodoo are a form of shamanism. The shamanism is a teaching from a spiritual spirits. He learned to use magic in a different ways.

Quote :

In the first case, the power is in the law itself; something happens when people do a certain thing, and if they break the rule it enforces itself. Sure, a spirit is responsible for it, but that's the extent to which it is involved; it isn't actively watching for people to sneeze, since that's a condition for the "law".

In the second case, the decisive factor is the spirit itself. It is actively using its power on the shaman's behalf, which means that it's directly involved. "Keep me happy or else" isn't a law so much as a very "strongly worded suggestion". If the shaman goes against it, there isn't going to be an automated set of checks and balances kicking in. It will be the spirit personally taking action and making him wish he had kept up his end of the bargain.

In that case we are in the wild magic system

Quote :

See, I am talking strictly in regards to magic as portrayed in works of fiction. As a writer, those are mainly the portrayals I am concerned about, aside from the influences of real world elements (culture, mythology, religious beliefs) involved. In terms of fiction, nearly all magic you encounter will fall into those categories I laid out (which I did not invent myself, I should add. I am just trying to explain them as best I can), simply because they play off of tropes long-established by writers.

It becomes very obvious when you take a detailed look at pretty much any fantasy novel, anime, comic book, or movie; unless a writer goes out of his or her way to avoid it, there are some elements which will almost always be present in a work of fiction. If you have a hero or a group of heroes, they will almost always make a journey and have adventures along the way to their main goal. It doesn't matter if it's the Epic of Gilgamesh, or Harry Potter, there's some themes that frequently reoccur in fiction (including cultural myths, for that matter).

Sorry but when a writer create a magic system, it comes from the myth,or many form of paganism or shamanism. Copy an existing systems without knowing where the authors find their idea it's not

The three categories as Ruled-base magic, Theurgy and ley are reality the same system. You like the ruled because the mage looks like more a scientist etc... But the Theurgy to contact a divinity you need to know how to contact so you follow rule, and to comme to the ley system in reality it's the most advanced why because the goal to a mage when he learns magic

In reality your charactegorization of magic is a description of shamanism, and the magic in general.

1)The fact the magic is living, in the shamanism the world is living
2)The rule-base, to use the force of nature you need to follow the rule
3)Innate magic, the shaman is born with an affinity to the spirit, and the spirit are magical creature
4)alchemy, the shaman knows different potion and poison from the different plants and beast to cure his people medecine man, withc doctor
5)artefact, the shaman can create.
6)Theurgy, a shaman can call spirits to help him
7)Ley, when the shaman enter in Transe or when he dies he become a spirits

There is no real difference between the systems, as there are not non-functionnal, semi-functionnal and functionnal magic, in reality it's how magic appears in book and the point of view of the writer. If the writer doesn't know what is really magic it will look non-functionnal, if he tries to explain it will become semi-functionnal but if the writers try to describe a complete system to explain how it's magic work it will become functionnal.

In reality there is no real difference except to The wild and The ruled based. The others are sub-category from the ruled. In the previous example you did, the ruled-mage open a portal to Erebus to send another mage but he can open a portal to allow a Succubus to come in his world etc...

Edit: We will stop here, my point is kust no matter the system of magic you use you can easily pas from a category to another in clear there is no system who is better than another. It will depend on the experience of the magic users and the point of view of the writer.

And I will add there is no real difference between the category except wild and ruled because all forms of magic used by someone follow rules.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

It has been proved is not completely true with Paladin Blood Elf with the help of the archmage they take the power from a naaru (a holy creature) contrary to the classical paladin who serves the light. This fact shows the holy light is nothing more like the arcane.

Actually, that example doesn't prove anything in regards to Priests (the sentence you quoted), since it's based on flawed reasoning. Priests do not equal Paladins, and Paladins do not equal Priests under the Warcraft framework. This is not the case in other fictional frameworks, and there are very well situations in which a "Paladin" is nothing more than a militant Priest. Warcraft is not one of them. This is not my opinion, it's a fact stated by Blizzard themselves. Priests and Paladins do both derive their power from a connection to "The Light", but the way in which they connect to it is totally different, and so are the powers they get from it as a result. They may be able to do similar things at some times, but the mechanism involved is completely different.

Again, your example kind of makes my point for me. The Naaru weren't even around originally, Rob Pardo retconned them in as a way to explain why Blood Elves suddenly became Paladins when the Burning Crusade expansion came out. According to the storyline he laid out, the Naaru are a race of non-material beings that have a strong connection to the Holy Light. They instructed Draenei and taught them how to connect to the Holy Light as well (Humans were able to instinctively develop the connection on their own).

The Naaru are connected to the Light in a similiar fashion as a Draenei Paladin, Human Paladin, Draenei Priest, or Human Priest are; the main thing that is different is the strength of the connection. The Naaru are ancient beings who have been connected to the Universe (which is basically what the "Holy Light" is, according to Blizzard) for a very long time, and have developed a stronger connection than any mortal possibly could.

Things changed when Blood Elves came into the mix, because they figured out how, through their knowledge of arcane magic and research on the Naaru they captured, to "hijack" that Naaru's connection to the Light and use it themselves. The magic they used to do that was arcane; the magic the Blood Elf Paladins and Priests are able to use as a result of it is not. The captive Naaru (M'uru) is not the true source of their power, the Light is; the Naaru is just the gateway through which they are (artificially) able to access that power. Blood Elves have no natural connection to the Light, and never will; but even without the Naaru, there are other options for them to forge an artificial connection, which is why Blood Knights are able to use their powers even after they "lose" M'uru. This is all clearly stated in Blizzard's lore, and I can pull up the link if you'd like evidence.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

The priest can pretend his power comes from his god is not completely true the rule of the spell is written by the god. If the spell fails it doesn't always evolve the god. The god gives some rule the priest can use.

In reality Theurgy is copyrighted ruled-base magic,in clear you can not say it's your power because but in clase you do not respect the contract I remove your power. But it's the case for any ruled based mage why because the great authority of magic can seal the power as the god dead.

I agree in principle. What we keep going around in circles on is mainly the "nature" of the contract involved. That, and the assertion that Thamaturgy/Theurgy is or is not the same as Rule-based magic. It really isn't, but I don't know how to get the point across other than saying "Just because a type of magic has rules, does not make it Rule-based magic" again.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

In that case the spirit "A" can come to save the shaman from B why it's not spirit "B" who allow the shamans to fly not B

First off, the two cases were completely seperate examples, just for comparison. But theoretically, following your example, if Spirit "A" came to save the shaman from Spirit "B", the magic becomes primarily Thaumaturgy in nature, regardless of whatever else is true. Because it involves active intervention on the shaman's behalf. In the stand-alone case, Spirit A made a ruling (everyone who flaps their arms like a bird can fly, but if you sneeze, you start falling), and is no longer actively involved.

Yes, the spirit has power, and yes, that power is responsible for what the shaman can do. But it is the contract itself that is the direct source of the shaman's ability to fly, and if he violates the contract, he suffers an automatic penalty. The spirit doesn't have to look over his shoulder and punish him for breaking its rule, because the contract will do that by itself. That is why the first case is a Rule-based example, and the second case is an example of Thaumaturgy. It doesn't matter that both spirits are laying down rules, the deciding factor is whether or not the contract itself has been empowered, or if it is just working off the honor system and the spirit itself is actively doing all the work behind the scenes. Overall, both situations are similiar, but they are not the same thing in terms of cause and effect.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Sorry guy it's not like shamanism because Omnyodou and the voodoo are a form of shamanism. The shamanism is a teaching from a spiritual spirits. He learned to use magic in a different ways.

Uh, Onmyoudou is not a form of shamanism. It was influenced by animistic beliefs centuries after it developed, but it was also influenced by Buddhism and Taoism. Hermeticism is also not a form of shamanism, although certain Hermetic orders practice rituals involving contacting spirits and learning from them. Two things being similar does not necessarily make them the same, even if the only difference is an underlying cause.

99.9 percent of any given human's DNA is identical to any other human's DNA; this doesn't mean that the two people are anything alike (even when external influences are factored out). Identical twins are genetically identical (according to some studies, more recent findings are in contention); this doesn't make them the same person, even if you raised them in a laboratory and treated them both exactly the same, without any factors that could interfere.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

In that case we are in the wild magic system

No, we aren't. You're focusing exclusively on similarities and disregarding the differences between them, despite the fact that the differences are the defining factor. A reasoning example:

"A, B, C" and "A, B, D" are different sequences. You are insisting that they are both the same class, and I am insisting that they are both different class. I am not saying I am right and you are wrong; I'm saying that which of us is right depends on the defining factors of the sequence. That's what I'm trying to get across. Just because "A" and "B" are identical in both sequences does not mean that they are the same, but just because "C" and "D" are different does not mean the sequences are not the same, either. If "A" and "B" are the defining factors of the sequences and "C" and "D" are incidental, then both sequences are of the same class. Subtly different, yes, but of the same basic type. If "C" is the defining factor of the first, and "D" is the defining factor of the second, and "A" and "B" are besides the point, then both sequences are of different types. You can say that they are the same, but that doesn't change the fact that they are not.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Sorry but when a writer create a magic system, it comes from the myth,or many form of paganism or shamanism. Copy an existing systems without knowing where the authors find their idea it's not

Sorta cut off there, so I'm not sure what you meant to say. But the first part of the statement is just not true. I know it is something of a copout to just say that and not explain it, but we are getting off-topic. There are cultures who have never had any contact at all with one another or any common third-party, yet their mythologies have startling similarities. This is because there are elements in any kind of story which commonly reoccur, regardless of cultural (or any other) influences, and all myths are a type of story. These elements are called tropes, and if you deconstruct any story ever told or written, you will find a number of tropes that can be easily identified. This is a fact, and has been proven true by thousands of years of human history, not just because I believe it to be true.

<Continued in another post, the message was too big>

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

The three categories as Ruled-base magic, Theurgy and ley are reality the same system. You like the ruled because the mage looks like more a scientist etc... But the Theurgy to contact a divinity you need to know how to contact so you follow rule, and to comme to the ley system in reality it's the most advanced why because the goal to a mage when he learns magic

Incorrect. Again, the division between the three, or any other category, lies in the differences and not the similiarities, and not just because they all "have rules". If the nature of the rules and similiarities are incidental, then they are not the same; if it is the differences that are incidental, then they are the same. That is all that matters; looking any further beyond the defining factors of each is pointless because at the highest level of existence all magic is the same. Just like all matter is composed of molecules, which are composed of atoms, which are composed of subatomic particles. The fact that you and a car are both composed of the same base "stuff" (very untechnical, I know) not only does not make you a car, but it is completely irrelevant in a comparison of how you and the car are different.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

In reality your charactegorization of magic is a description of shamanism, and the magic in general.

1)The fact the magic is living, in the shamanism the world is living
2)The rule-base, to use the force of nature you need to follow the rule
3)Innate magic, the shaman is born with an affinity to the spirit, and the spirit are magical creature
4)alchemy, the shaman knows different potion and poison from the different plants and beast to cure his people medecine man, withc doctor
5)artefact, the shaman can create.
6)Theurgy, a shaman can call spirits to help him
7)Ley, when the shaman enter in Transe or when he dies he become a spirits

You are still missing the point I'm trying to make, so I'll just let it go for now. I'm not mad or anything; in fact, this has been a very interesting conversation, and given me a lot to think about. You are just focusing on a different part of the equation than I am, and it really doesn't have much bearing on what I'm trying to point out. I'll have to think about it more, but maybe it would be better to start another topic. I was kinda hoping more people would weigh in and present some contrasting viewpoints, but I don't want to hijack the topic.

A particular system of magic (shamanism) for instance can be any one of #1-7, or a mixture of any number of them, or heck, it can be a mixture of all of them. But in general, a particular system of magic will derive its power directly from a single source, or a single type of source. Whichever that direct source is, that is the factor that determines primarily what type of magic it is.

I'll say it again, this is only a framework, a tool that people can and do use to create their own systems of magic in fiction, that also applies to "real world" instances of magical beliefs and practices. Whether you consciously use it or not, virtually any instance of magic in fiction can be categorized under this framework. It doesn't matter if it's a myth from a culture you just discovered yesterday, or the latest popular fantasy novel, or a story you're planning on writing in a year; if you take a deconstructive look at the work, and break it down into its most common themes, you'll find startling similiarities between these classes of magic and the work you are studying.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

There is no real difference between the systems, as there are not non-functionnal, semi-functionnal and functionnal magic, in reality it's how magic appears in book and the point of view of the writer. If the writer doesn't know what is really magic it will look non-functionnal, if he tries to explain it will become semi-functionnal but if the writers try to describe a complete system to explain how it's magic work it will become functionnal.

Yes! That is exactly the point I have been trying to make! These categories aren't a strict interpetation of "magic only works like this, or like this, or like this". If you are writing a story, and you have magic in it but don't explain it at all or state that magic can NOT be explained rationally, ever... you are using Non-Functional magic. That is Non-Functional magic by definition. If you give it a lot more consideration, and actually go into explanation on what it can and can not do, and how it works, that is Functional magic by definition. Whatever rules you establish are just part of the system you are creating; the mechanism by which that magic system derives its power will determine what "class" of Functional magic it is primarily, from a design standpoint.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

In reality there is no real difference except to The wild and The ruled based. The others are sub-category from the ruled. In the previous example you did, the ruled-mage open a portal to Erebus to send another mage but he can open a portal to allow a Succubus to come in his world etc...

In reality, there is a very real difference between all of them, which is what determines the "class" of Functional magic a particular magic system uses. But I mostly agree with what you are saying now, which is very close to the point I've been trying to get across since the beginning. It's mostly the semantics we disagree on. You say "The others are sub-category from the ruled (Rule-Based magic)", I say "The others are sub-categories of Functional magic, which includes Rule-Based magic (which may be, or may not be distinct from the others depending on the circumstances)."

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Edit: We will stop here, my point is kust no matter the system of magic you use you can easily pas from a category to another in clear there is no system who is better than another. It will depend on the experience of the magic users and the point of view of the writer.

And I will add there is no real difference between the category except wild and ruled because all forms of magic used by someone follow rules.

I agree, mostly. These categories aren't intended to be strict, uncrossable lines by which types of magic are divided. Instead, they're more general guidelines to use if and when you decide to try and create a magic system of your own. Regardless of whether or not you try to use them, the end result you come up with will fall into one or more of these categories, just by virtue of identification of the themes involved.

It was not my intention to say that one system was any better than the other, or that they are totally incompatible; these tropes are nothing more than devices a writer can use to create elements of a story. You may have a Hermetic mage who can ritually summon spirits- If the main focus on his magic is calling up spirits and gaining power from them, the underlying nature of the magic would be Thaumaturgy with elements of Rule-Based magic.

That doesn't mean that it is strictly how all Hermetic magic works, just that those are the general categories that particular mage's magic fall into. If the emphasis on his power is more due to the inherent power of the spells and rituals his is conducting, and the spirits are just servants or a mechanism by which he can improve his abilities, the underlying nature of the magic is Rule-Based with elements of Thaumaturgy. I was never trying to make the argument that a shaman who mainly practices Thaumaturgy could never create artifacts, for example. It's just that if his power doesn't derive directly from those artifacts, the Artifact-based element of the magic is secondary to the Thaumaturgy.

It really seems like you understand the basics of what I'm trying to say, you just keep getting caught up on "the rules" as meaning "Rule-based magic", when it really means "Functional magic". Rule-based magic is a specific type of Functional magic, not a broader category under which all the others fall.

Addendum: I made edits to some of my earlier posts, but it was just to correct misspellings or misused terms, not to change the content of the post itself. I can’t believe we’ve hit over 20,000 words on this discussion! Come on, it's time for some of you lurkers to weigh in on this.

Quote :

In reality, there is a very real difference between all of them, which is what determines the "class" of Functional magic a particular magic system uses. But I mostly agree with what you are saying now, which is very close to the point I've been trying to get across since the beginning. It's mostly the semantics we disagree on. You say "The others are sub-category from the ruled (Rule-Based magic)", I say "The others are sub-categories of Functional magic, which includes Rule-Based magic (which may be, or may not be distinct from the others depending on the circumstances)."

Thanks to understand me

Quote :

It really seems like you understand the basics of what I'm trying to say, you just keep getting caught up on "the rules" as meaning "Rule-based magic", when it really means "Functional magic". Rule-based magic is a specific type of Functional magic, not a broader category under which all the others fall.

I want just to understand this point because the Ruled-based magic seems to be superior when we look the others.

Thanks to understand me

Quote :

No problem.

[quote="gwadahunter2222"]I want just to understand this point because the Ruled-based magic seems to be superior when we look the others.

Hmm. I wouldn't call it superior, necessarily. It might be stronger in some cases, but weaker in others. The important thing to remember is that under a Rule-based magic system, the strengths and limitations are much more strictly defined, and built into the rules of the system itself. You might be able to find some loopholes if you are creative, but you can't really "break the rules" (at least, not without something bad happening to you). As a hypothetical example, a rule-based Fire mage and a Thaumaturgy-based shaman are thrown into the same situation.

The Fire mage's magic system has a strict rule that none of his fire spells can affect water elementals. They just fizzle out.

The Shaman's patron spirit has a mutual truce with the water elementals, so has made it clear to the Shaman not to use his magic against them.

Both spellcasters are then attacked by completely identical (for the purposes of this example) water elementals.

The Fire mage is pretty much hosed- his magic just does not work against the water elemental, because it is a built-in limitation of the magic system he is using. He might be able to come up with a way to save his butt by being really creative, but it is not going to involve blasting the elemental with a spell, because the rule governing his magic's use can't be broken. Taking it further, if the rule was "If you use fire attacks against a water elemental, you spontaneously combust" instead, he's still in the same boat.

Sure, now he can use his magic to defend himself, the only problem is instead of it fizzling out and him getting eaten by a water elemental, now he'll blow up as soon as he tries. The mystical backlash is not coming from the water elemental, or some higher being watching the whole situation with amusement, it is coming directly from the violation of the rules that his magic operates on.

The Shaman may or may not be in the same boat, depending on how good his relationship with his patron spirit is, and how strictly the spirit enforces the rules. His magic might fizzle out as soon as he tries to attack the elemental (because the patron spirit severs the connection over the shaman doing something she doesn't like). Or maybe his magic will work, and he manages to drive off the water elemental... and then has to deal with an angry spirit wanting to know why he's going around breaking a truce she worked so hard to establish.

If he's convincing enough, and/or the spirit is understanding, then the shaman might not even face any kind of punishment. He could just get a smack on the wrist and a stern, "Don't do that again!". On the other hand, if he totally fails to be convincing, or if the spirit doesn't care that he was just defending himself, he might face the spirit's wrath.

In a situation like this, the Thaumaturgy caster has a better chance than the Rule-based caster. He at least has the option of negotiating the details of his contract, or making an appeal and hoping for the best. Under strictly Rule-based system, you don't get that option; if you do something you're not supposed to, something else happens automatically. You can't avoid the penalties associated with your magic, unless you go to extreme lengths (which usually fall under the category of another type of magic; cutting a deal with the Devil, for example- Thaumaturgy).

Heck, a Thaumaturgist could lack the ability to cast any sort of offensive, defensive, or support magic at all. Maybe the only thing they can do is cast summoning spells and talk to spirits. If they are in a fight with an archmage whose magic is Rule-based, they are at a clear disadvantage. I mean, the archmage might be able to nuke them with a fireball with just as much effort as it takes to flex his pinky finger.

But if the only spell that Thaumaturgist casts summons up a hungry Elder God... well, the archmage stops being the superior spellcaster and starts being lunch. Again, it's all about relative strengths and weaknesses, and how you make the most of them.