On magic

I like this explanation, thanks

This is my theory of magic.
(I wrote this for fun, I had the idea and I needed to get it out of my head. It's got lots of holes... So I'm open so suggestions.)


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Magic energy is extra-dimensional. (It exists in more than the 4 dimensions that most living creatures can observe).
There are different types of magical energy divine, demonic and neutral. Different types are suited to different spells. All types are sentient. Different types are suited to different spells.
Powerful magi do not need to cast spells, the magic is sentient, and understands what they want. Only extremely powerful beings can do this, such as guardians.

Magic energy can be stored in crystals, metals and to a small extent, stones.
The capacity of a crystal is determined by it's hardness and it's flaws.
This means that a huge diamond may not be able to store as much energy as a small diamond, if the small diamond is perfect.
Crystals, metals etc, can hold more magic if the magic is in the form of a spell, the spell gives the magic 'shape,' therefore it is less likely to shatter the object. Too much power can destroy the object with possibly catastrophic results. In Felarya there is so much background magic that crystals can build up magical power without any spells being cast.

Magic can be converted to matter or be used to energize and control matter.
So, "earth magic" is the conversion of magic energy to a solid form, or the use of magic to manipulate solids. "Fire magic" is the use of magic to convert matter to plasma. Air magic is the conversion if magic energy to kinetic energy, fire and water also use this to some extent.
"Water magic" is the use of magical energy to rapidly condense water vapor out of the air. Powerful wizards and spell-casters can also fuse water and hydrogen in the air to create water.

The use of magic to animate inanimate objects...
I'll use a golem to explain my theory in this area, it's easier.
An animating spell cast on a golem rearranges the molecules in a way that allows movement. The spell then kinetically charges the molecules. A golem with a crystal on it will last longer than a golem without, because the crystal can hold magic for longer than clay can. Golems without a magical power source would need to be constantly maintained.

Mind control magic requires spells equal to the complexity of the subject's mind. Some spells simply remove the will of the subject, so they can be ordered to do anything. Other spells implant a conscious or sub-conscious suggestion, like hypnosis, except much more powerful.

Scrying, observing and spy magic, the use of magic to observe distant places and people.
This magic can work in a number of ways.
Visible spy spells create a globe of magical energy that transmits a picture to be displayed on another object, like a mirror. If the spellcaster is skilled, he or she can make the globe invisible.

Another sort of observing spell creates a wormhole in space, but only allows light and energy to pass through. Usually sound would not be able to pass through. but and additional spell can be cast through the portal (Since magic is energy and energy can move through the portal) to create a kind of microphone.
The microphone spell works by creating a disc of air that is filled with magic. As sound vibrations enter the disc, they are converted to magical energy and sent to the other side of the viewing portal. This spell can also be used to provide sound on visible spy spells, the disc is just part of the magical globe.

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I was going to post this in the off-topic section. But this topic seemed more appropriate.
I have a headache now...

..wow

i'm so confused O__O heh

Claire wrote:

..wow

i'm so confused O__O heh

What part is (or parts are) confusing you? I might be able to clear things up... or make them even more confusing. Definitely one or the other.

To be simple:

Use your own magic energy and do spell or ritual to alter mater: Ruled-based magic.
Borrow or call magic energy or property from someone else, a spirit, a god, a magic creature or another dimension it's Theurgy.
You were born with magic power:innate magic
You use magic without casting spell: ley
You se magic without control it and many weird things happen around you: wild magic

Anime-Junkie wrote:

This is my theory of magic.
(I wrote this for fun, I had the idea and I needed to get it out of my head. It's got lots of holes... So I'm open so suggestions.)

Hmmm. Some interesting ideas. If you don't mind, I am going to deconstruct them a bit to poke at those holes, before I offer suggestions.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Magic energy is extra-dimensional. (It exists in more than the 4 dimensions that most living creatures can observe).

Where does it come from? It is fine to say that one of its properties is multi-dimensionality, but where is its source? Is it just cosmic "background noise", diffused into the fabric of all dimensions? Or is there an unreachable higher-level dimension that no being can physically access, from which magical energy cascades down into the dimensions "beneath" it, similar to the process of entropy? Are there rare occurrences that result in magic universally not working or working differently (dimensional misalignment, conflicting universes connecting with one another, etc.); effectively, are there times when that higher-level dimension stops raining down magical energy on the other dimensions (if that is how you decide it works).

Anime-Junkie wrote:

There are different types of magical energy divine, demonic and neutral. Different types are suited to different spells. All types are sentient.

What is the main difference between the types? Do they come from different sources? Do they have different intrinsic properties? Could an angel (a divine being), for example, use demonic magic? Or is that strictly out of the question? You said that they are all sentient, which is interesting... and can pose some unique problems when you really think about it.

Is the main difference between Divine and Demon magic that the types of magic themselves hate one another? If a Divine caster can cast a Demonic magic, does it whisper in the back of their mind about how much better off they would be on its side of the fence? Or does the very act of them casting a Demonic spell really tick off the will of Divine magic, and lead to insta-smites? Where does Neutral magic fit into the picture? Is it there sort of acting as an intermediary, or does it just sit back and let Divine and Demonic go for one another's throat?

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Powerful magi do not need to cast spells, the magic is sentient, and understands what they want. Only extremely powerful beings can do this, such as guardians.

Why? Why do you have to be a "powerful mage" to not need to "cast spells"? If magic is sentient, and can understand what it is a caster wants to do, why does it care how powerful the mage is? In fact, why does it care what the mage wants to do at all?

If what a mage wants to do is hit someone with a fireball spell, and magic thinks the best thing to do in the situation is teleport out of there... what happens? Does it just do what the mage wants anyways and let them die, or does it take a "Magic knows best!" approach and watch their back?

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Magic energy can be stored in crystals, metals and to a small extent, stones.
The capacity of a crystal is determined by it's hardness and it's flaws.
This means that a huge diamond may not be able to store as much energy as a small diamond, if the small diamond is perfect.
Crystals, metals etc, can hold more magic if the magic is in the form of a spell, the spell gives the magic 'shape,' therefore it is less likely to shatter the object. Too much power can destroy the object with possibly catastrophic results. In Felarya there is so much background magic that crystals can build up magical power without any spells being cast.

So... all crystals, metals, and stones are magical, to some degree or another? Why? What makes them a good storage medium for magical energy, as opposed to... say, inscribing mystic runes on a scroll? You said the capacity of a crystal is determined by its hardness and flaws, which can make a lot of sense... but what determines the capacity of metal? Stone?

If you just leave a flawless diamond lying around, does it naturally accumulate mystical energy, without you needing to channel magic into it? If the answer is yes, does it stop accumulating magic once it's "full", or if you leave a diamond lying around in Felarya does it eventually shatter due to mystical overload? Given the sheer abundance of gems found at the bottom of the Jewel River and all the ruins and mines, the answer would seem to be "No". How does your theory of magic incorporate or explain that? Do casters from your world, where that theory of magic works perfectly, just scratch their head in wonder when they come to Felarya?

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Magic can be converted to matter or be used to energize and control matter.
So, "earth magic" is the conversion of magic energy to a solid form, or the use of magic to manipulate solids. "Fire magic" is the use of magic to convert matter to plasma. Air magic is the conversion if magic energy to kinetic energy, fire and water also use this to some extent.
"Water magic" is the use of magical energy to rapidly condense water vapor out of the air. Powerful wizards and spell-casters can also fuse water and hydrogen in the air to create water.

You said before that the different types of magic are suited to different spells. Do all of them do the exact same thing to energize and control matter? Not all "Fire magic" deals with plasma; it tends to be based more on thermodynamic principles; when you break those down, you're really dealing entirely with kinetic energy and its effect on molecular structures.

Why is "air magic" more suited to the manipulation of kinetic energy than "fire magic" is, under this system of magic? Are all instances of magical energy-to-matter conversion classified as "earth magic"? What about if I want to create and manipulate plastic, instead of soil? Move metal using magnetic fields, instead of directly manipulating its molecules with magical energy? If all matter manipulation via magic involves directly controlling a substance's molecular structure, why does it take a "powerful" spellcaster to fuse oxygen (probably what you meant) and hydrogen to create water?

Anime-Junkie wrote:

The use of magic to animate inanimate objects...
I'll use a golem to explain my theory in this area, it's easier.
An animating spell cast on a golem rearranges the molecules in a way that allows movement. The spell then kinetically charges the molecules. A golem with a crystal on it will last longer than a golem without, because the crystal can hold magic for longer than clay can. Golems without a magical power source would need to be constantly maintained.

If metal can store magical energy in the same way a crystal can, and you can arrange a golem's molecules in a manner that allows for complex actions like movement... why not just make a golem entirely out of metal? If you're dealing with molecular manipulation, and you can animate clay, you can animate metal just as easily... unless there's some underlying cause preventing you from doing so. Even if you're dealing with crystals, why can't you set up some kind of link that transfers magical energy to a crystal remotely, so that you don't have to keep recharging the golem?

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Mind control magic requires spells equal to the complexity of the subject's mind. Some spells simply remove the will of the subject, so they can be ordered to do anything. Other spells implant a conscious or sub-conscious suggestion, like hypnosis, except much more powerful.

Why is that? Are extremely powerful mages an exception, since they don't need to cast spells? Since the different types of magic are all sentient, and have their own will, can a mage just convince magic to take over someone's mind? And if magic can do that, what keeps it from arbitrarily deciding to take over anybody's mind whenever it wants? Maybe Divine magic doesn't do it because "that would be wrong", but why would Demonic magic agree to play by the honor system? Does that mean that Demonic and Neutral magic are better suited for mind-control, illusion, and hypnosis spells than Divine magic is, under your theory?

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Scrying, observing and spy magic, the use of magic to observe distant places and people.
This magic can work in a number of ways.
Visible spy spells create a globe of magical energy that transmits a picture to be displayed on another object, like a mirror. If the spellcaster is skilled, he or she can make the globe invisible.

Why a globe of magical energy, and why does the picture have to be displayed on another object? Why does it take a skilled spellcaster to use "invisible spy spells"? Some of the most common observation spells in fictional works are connecting one's sight to an animal or spiritually possessing the animal and using its senses for your own purposes, and using a "scrying pool"; which is nothing more than forging a sympathetic link between two bodies of water, for instance using the water in a cup to view the reflection of a subject near another body of water somewhere else. What about clairvoyance and astral projection? Are they possible under your theory, and how are they accomplished if they are?

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Another sort of observing spell creates a wormhole in space, but only allows light and energy to pass through. Usually sound would not be able to pass through. but and additional spell can be cast through the portal (Since magic is energy and energy can move through the portal) to create a kind of microphone.

Why wouldn't sound be able to pass through? What keeps you from creating a wormhole that allows light and sound to pass through; which is technically already possibly, if light and energy can pass through. In fact, consider what that really means for a moment. If you are creating a wormhole that unconditionally allows light and sound to pass through... what is keeping a mage from sending through a fireball or concentrated beam of light (laser) and roasting your rear if they happen to notice you spying on them? Very, very dangerous and overly complex way to accomplish something simple!

Anime-Junkie wrote:

The microphone spell works by creating a disc of air that is filled with magic. As sound vibrations enter the disc, they are converted to magical energy and sent to the other side of the viewing portal. This spell can also be used to provide sound on visible spy spells, the disc is just part of the magical globe.

Again, I kind of question the neccessity here. If you can create a spatial wormhole that lets you see someone through it, you can create one that lets you see and hear someone through it. It would be a matter of the time and effort you put into the spell. Why would you need to make a disc of air that picks up incoming sonic vibrations, converts them into magical energy, sends them across a link, and converts them back into sound? That is a whole lot of energy expended, on top of what you used to create a wormhole in space. And again, consider what happens if a harmful noise comes across the link; a burst of sound powerful enough to shatter stone, or a hypnotic melody. If that disc of air microphone is perfectly translating every sound it picks up, the caster eavesdropping could be in serious trouble!

Anime-Junkie wrote:

I was going to post this in the off-topic section. But this topic seemed more appropriate.
I have a headache now...

Yep, that's what this topic seems to be for. I'm really glad to read a few more viewpoints on the matter, it really helps put things into perspective. Sorry about the headache. And now for the suggestions!

You have some pretty interesting ideas about how to do things, and that is the best place to start when it comes to creative writing. It may seem like I was nitpicking every little details about your theory, but it is not because I was trying to shoot your ideas down. I was hoping to get you to think about the questions, and consider how to explain them within the context of your theory. It's hard to explain "every little thing", which is why a lot of people don't even bother; to be honest, no matter what you do, there is still someone who will ask a question you have not thought about yet. That's why discussions can be so much fun!

It seems to me like you took the "top-down" approach to magic, and created a system based on that. You started right out the gate with "Magic energy is extra-dimensional.", and then worked your way down to examples on how it is things are done under your theory. There is not anything wrong with that, but that is not how I do things personally. The "top-down" approach has its strengths, but the main problem with it is that you tend to notice the forest and not the trees, if you aren't careful.

When I am designing something in a creative writing context, I try to remember that the characters are the lens through which the readers are going to experience events. As such, it is important to think not only about what magic (or anything else) is and how it is done, but what the character thinks it is and how (s)he does it. In essence, it is the "bottom-up" approach; viewing a scene of two spellcasters throwing fireballs back and forth. From above, as an unbiased observer, what they are doing is the same; they are both throwing fireballs.

Look at the same scene from the viewpoint of the characters, though. What is one thinking and experiencing as she casts the spell? Is she just chanting off a widely known sequence of syllables that has been unchanged for thousands of years to cast a generic, AD&D-style 3rd level "Fireball" spell? Or is she reaching out, gathering magical energy, exciting the molecules in the air around her until it combusts, and forming the resulting flames into the shape of a ball? How is she experiencing the event, and how is her opponent (an observer at the same level of existence) experiencing it?

What do you want "her"- that character you created in your mind- to be able to do, and what do you want her not to be able to do (this is just as important, and in some cases more important!). Once you have an idea of that, consider the mechanics behind how she does it, and what others see when she does it. Then, all you have to do is establish a cohesive framework that links together the things she can do, and explains the things she can not do. And bang, you have a "theory of magic" that covers the magic system you just created!

This is just how I do things, though; I'm not going to insist that it's the best way to do it, or appropriate for everyone. Different strokes for different folks and all that. I really do hope it helps, and if you (or anyone else) found anything worthwhile in the post, I guess I accomplished what I intended.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

To be simple:

Use your own magic energy and do spell or ritual to alter mater: Ruled-based magic.
Borrow or call magic energy or property from someone else, a spirit, a god, a magic creature or another dimension it's Theurgy.
You were born with magic power:innate magic
You use magic without casting spell: ley
You se magic without control it and many weird things happen around you: wild magic

Not quite, it's more a matter of where the true source of power is. Magical energy you use can be internal (using your own capacity) or external (coming from somewhere else) under any of the systems. The simple version is this:

Rule-based: The real power lies in what you know or what you believe. If "Open Sesame" is a spell to open doors and it works for anybody who says it, or anybody who meets certain qualifications (has magical ability, or is a mage of the "Door Opening" school, or has blue eyes, or whatever the rules state) and says "Open Sesame", it is an example of Rule-based magic. The power or ability is rooted in the spell itself, regardless of where the energy to cast it comes from.

Thaumaturgy/Theurgy: The real power lies in who you know; namely, some type of supernatural entity you have contact with. It can be a god, a demon, a spirit, or anything else. Your magic is a boon granted to you by them, and depends solely on them- if they want, they can take it away or just stop answering calls from you. It can be a passive power that you keep until they take it back, or something that requires active participation on their part. For example, a spirit might give you the ability to cast spells if you couldn't before, or you might call on the power of a spirit when you need to do something, and it shows up and casts the spell itself. In both cases, the spirit is the direct source of power, you are only enjoying the perks.

Innate/Inherent: The real power lies in what you are, or something about you. If all members of your species (Fire Succubi) have a natural ability (Extreme Fire Resistance), that is a form of Innate magic. This doesn't mean you can't have Innate magical abilities and still cast spells; there is nothing that keeps you from having multiple classes of magic. But unless the spellcasting is a natural ability (not just magical potential, an actual ability of your species/race/family/whatever), then it is not Innate magic. For example, if all Fire Succubi can cast fire spells, then "fire magic" is another form of Innate magic that succubi possess. If most Fire Succubi cast fire spells, but some learn how to use other types of magic (Ice magic, Summoning magic, etc.) instead, then Fire magic is not part of a Fire Succubus' Innate magic.

Ley/Force: The real power lies in where you are, or a metaphysical property of a certain location. This can be anything from your personal place of power or sanctum sanctorum, or a magical energy field, or ley lines that surge across the planet. The point is, your magic either draws its power directly from a magical location, or you siphon power from a location into yourself (which might have to be used right away, or can stored within you as "your" energy capacity), or your magic only works in certain locations. If any or all of these are the most important traits of your style of magic, then it is Ley magic (or Force Magic, whichever term you prefer); whether or not you actually cast spells or directly manipulate magical forces is secondary. If "Abracadabra" is only a word until you put power into it, and that power originated from a location or magical field of energy (which might be confined to a certain spot, or encompass the entire world), then the magic is primarily Ley-based.

Living/Wild: The real power lies in Magic itself. Magic is a cosmic force, that might be non-sentient, semi-sentient, or fully sentient. It has a will and desire of its own, and technically can never be controlled, only influenced. This does not mean that it can never be reliable; just that even when you think you are making it do what you want, it is really only doing it because It wants to. If you call on magic or the Will of the Universe for help, and it answers you, actually converses with you, is capable of liking you or disliking you, or shows any other signs of being an actual entity of some sort, then you are using Living magic (or Wild magic). The Force qualifies as a type of Living magic; its properties are that it encompasses all life in the Universe and connects all living things. That doesn't have to be the case with all styles of Living magic, just as there doesn't have to be a tangible "Light side" and "Dark side" to the Universe. If Magic is capable of making its own plans, has its own interests, and manipulates you just as much as you manipulate it, you are looking at a textbook case of Living magic.

Alchemy: The real power lies in the properties of magical substances, and the interactions between them. If you are combining components in a particular process to attain a particular result, your style of magic is a kind of Alchemy. It doesn't neccessarily have to be potions you make; combining three different types of magic powder to cast a fireball spell can be a type of Alchemy, or it can be a type of Rule-based magic. If the power of the spell comes from the properties of Red Powder, Blue Powder, and Yellow Powder, and the effect is determined by knowing how much of each to mix together, then it is Alchemy. If you are a mage who wants to cast a 3rd level Fireball spell, and the requirement to do so is having an amount of Red Powder, Blue Powder, and Yellow powder on hand, then you are using Rule-based magic.

Artifact: The real power of your magic lies in what you have. You are using magic items, or objects with power of their own. Maybe you made them yourself, maybe someone else made them, or maybe you found an ancient relic. Whatever the case is, the power is rooted in an object or item you have, and without that object or item you can not use that particular ability. This doesn't mean the item is self-sufficient; it is entirely possible that you provide the magical energy for it out of your own internal capacity. The actual spell or ability, however, is derived from the item in your possession. Whether it is Seven-League Boots, a magic wand, or an assortment of magical jewelry, your magic is rooted in a physical object. If you have a magic sword, and it is primarily magic in nature because of a specific property of the steel alloy you created it from, it is more along the lines of Alchemy. But if the sword is primarily magic in nature because of the way you crafted it or because it was imbued with power, it is more an example of Artificing.

... Whew. I really need to learn how to be more concise. I hope that is somehow less confusing, and doesn't just add more confusion on top of it. Do note that none of these categories of magic are exclusive; it is possible to have a style of magic that only falls into one of those categories, or any number of combinations of them, or all of them. But the primary category of a particular magic style will be determined by where the real "power" is derived from.

Not the "mana" or mystical energy that you use to cast spells, but the actual power/effect you are invoking. If it's Holy Magic from your god, then you're mainly using Theurgy. If it's a sword blessed by a priest of your god, and you have no real power of your own without the sword, you are mostly using Artifact magic (with Theurgy elements, but there is no direct connection between you and the god, just the properties imbued into your sword).

Does that help up at all, Claire (or anyone else with questions)?

Quote :

Rule-based: The real power lies in what you know or what you believe. If "Open Sesame" is a spell to open doors and it works for anybody who says it, or anybody who meets certain qualifications (has magical ability, or is a mage of the "Door Opening" school, or has blue eyes, or whatever the rules state) and says "Open Sesame", it is an example of Rule-based magic. The power or ability is rooted in the spell itself, regardless of where the energy to cast it comes from.

Im'not agree with that point it will depend on of the limit of your world,there is no proof of another world from your world the mage of this place won't know how to access to it. and another question I will ask you who write the spell the mage use and how he finds it
You tell me is the writer who will decide in that case ruled-base system include all the different magic system. In a world like Felarya there is no real difference between "summonier", "priest","warlock"," shaman"(voodou and omnyodou and kabbalah have some shamanic origin) and "mage" It's just a "title" in that case all the magic system are just different school of magic.

And another point the ruled-based magic even if they follow their rules and spell they need an energy if they want to work in clear depending on the spell or it's just words.

And another point a ruled-based mage is limited by his knowledge of his world , even if he know to teleport or dimensionnal magic he can not travel in different world than the other if he tries he will dies or have some side effect, but in general this kind of thing is necessary if he wants to evolve the magic of his homeworld.

Quote :

Thaumaturgy/Theurgy: The real power lies in who you know; namely, some type of supernatural entity you have contact with. It can be a god, a demon, a spirit, or anything else. Your magic is a boon granted to you by them, and depends solely on them- if they want, they can take it away or just stop answering calls from you. It can be a passive power that you keep until they take it back, or something that requires active participation on their part. For example, a spirit might give you the ability to cast spells if you couldn't before, or you might call on the power of a spirit when you need to do something, and it shows up and casts the spell itself. In both cases, the spirit is the direct source of power, you are only enjoying the perks.

In Theurgy it depends on the relationship between the magician and the entity there is three case:
1-Submission: the entity is the master and the summoner is a follower or a disciple or a slave (possession)
2-domination:the summoner is the master and the spirit obey to his order
3-equal: the spirit and the summoner are in good term, the spirit can learn what it knows to the mage and the mage can call (summon) the spirit for help
The theurgy is limited by the power of the spirit and how the summoner can stand it.
It's not all the summoner who can summon the spirit completely, so the summoner becomes a kind of gate through the power of the spirit will pass.

You say the power lies in who you know so if I understand the difference between Theurgy and Ruled can be summed by this two questions who you know? and what you know? but it's not true to know someone you need to know how to deal with him in clear you know what you know In general you can not deal with the Queen of the Erebus as you deal with a lesser demon in clear you need to know who she is to do that you need to gather information about her and how to deal with her. In clear you need to know the protocol in clear learn ruled-based spells like astral projection, mind control and how to convince and dimensionnal magic. In clear the summoner has in own spell who had been written in a ruled-based magic

Your explication about the difference are very paradoxical because Contrary to a ruled-mage master in dimensionnal magic the Theurgy system deal with the non- physical or supernatural or physcal dimension but if in a ruled-based the existence of demon or supernatural creature is proven so all the theurgy becomes a tradditionnal school of magic where the shaman deals with both the physical and dimensionnal force

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Im'not agree with that point it will depend on of the limit of your world,there is no proof of another world from your world the mage of this place won't know how to access to it. and another question I will ask you who write the spell the mage use and how he finds it

Again, you are focusing on the wrong point. It doesn't matter who writes the spell, or what world the spell is cast on, or anything else, for determining whether or not a particular system is Rule-based. All those are secondary factors, and not relevant to the question of "Is the metaphysical Power, the effect itself, derived directly from the spell?" If the answer is "Yes", it is primarily Rule-based magic. If the answer is "No", it is not primarily Rule-based.

Everything else is of secondary importance in context to that question. If a particular world operates on a particular system of Rule-based magic, and the rules of that system state that the style of magic only works on that world, then a spellcaster who travels to a different world is not going to be casting spells operating under that system of magic. Period. This doesn't mean that their knowledge of magic is worthless, or that they can't learn a completely different type of magic. It just means that they aren't going to be using their native style of magic away from home, unless there is some sort of specific mitigating conditions. If that rule says, "This magic only works on your home world." and on Felarya, almost everybody's magic works just like it does at home, then that mage might be able to use their system of magic normally while on Felarya.

It depends on the situation, however. We know that it's impossible to create undead on Felarya, although they can travel there. In effect, that's a Rule-based magic element that trumps a whole lot of styles of Necromantic magic. It doesn't matter if Mumm-Ra the Ever-Living promises his followers that their Rule-based magic will let them raise the dead anywhere in the known Universe; It can't be done on Felarya, which means Felarya's "no creating undead!" rule trumps Mumm-Ra's.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

You tell me is the writer who will decide in that case ruled-base system include all the different magic system. In a world like Felarya there is no real difference between "summonier", "priest","warlock"," shaman"(voodou and omnyodou and kabbalah have some shamanic origin) and "mage" It's just a "title" in that case all the magic system are just different school of magic.

If the systems of magic are different in terms of what they can and can not accomplish, then there is a real difference between a summoner, a priest, a warlock, a shaman, and a mage. Heck, one shaman is still different from another shaman, even under a Rule-based system, if their magic follows different rules. The only way that "There is no real difference between them" statement can ever be true is under one situation: If everybody's magic worked exactly the same and did the exact same things.

A Herald of Xotli from Age of Conan and a Bright Wizard from Warcraft Fantasy Battles have hardly anything in common in terms of how their magic works and what their magic can accomplish. That means they are different; they are not the same, and they never will be the same in the context of their own universes or one another's universe. They will also not be the same on Felarya, unless as soon as they set foot on Felarya, their magic suddenly stops working the way each is used to and starts working exactly the same. It doesn't matter what their titles are, those are artificial distinctions. The reason a Summoner and a Mage are different is because their magic operates on different principles; if it doesn't, then they are both using the same system of magic.

Now, if you create a universe entirely from scratch that all your writing takes place in, and the framework you build for magic use states that "All magic is Rule-based magic, in some form or another", then guess what. All magic is Rule-based magic, in some form or another, in your universe. Because that's the overarching rule that guides all magic use in your universe. If you take it further, and say that all magic users are basically the same, and the only difference between an Elementalist and a Hermetic Mage are cultural, then... yes, "All magic users are basically the same" becomes a universal "Law of Magic" in the context of your universe.

Now, if the Elementalist and Hermetic Mage travel to a universe where the Rule-based magic system for Elementalism and Hermeticism are completely different, things change. Unless for some reason external rules from another universe apply, that Elementalist and Hermetic Mage are not going to be able to do things the way they are used to, because they are operating under different rules in a different universe. Does this mean that the rule of their native Universe stating, "All magic users are basically the same" is false? No, because that rule is still functioning back in their native universe. It is just completely irrelevant to the situation they've found themselves in now, because their magic no longer works the same.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

And another point the ruled-based magic even if they follow their rules and spell they need an energy if they want to work in clear depending on the spell or it's just words.

Again, that point is irrelevant. All magic requires energy from somewhere. You draw energy from food; it doesn't matter whether you got that energy from an apple or a sandwhich, to accomplish the task of lifting your arms over your head. It just has nothing to do with Rule-based magic specifically. You can have Rule-based spells that you still have to power with your own energy, leaving you fatigued after casting them. Fantasy novels are full of magic like that.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

And another point a ruled-based mage is limited by his knowledge of his world , even if he know to teleport or dimensionnal magic he can not travel in different world than the other if he tries he will dies or have some side effect, but in general this kind of thing is necessary if he wants to evolve the magic of his homeworld.

Incorrect. A rule-based mage is limited first and foremost by the rules of his magic system. Everything else is secondary to the rules of the system, which is why it is called rule-based magic. I'll prove the point using your example. I think you are saying that a rule-based mage has to know dimensional magic to travel to another world without mishap or death. This can be true, or it can not be true; it depends solely on the rules of the magic system he is using. In some cases, a novice can just study a magic spell they've never seen before out of a book, and proceed to perform a complicated ritual thanks to easy-to-follow diagrams and teleport or travel between worlds. It's that easy.

On the other hand, in some cases it takes decades of study for a archmage to travel between planes, and the rituals are so pain-stakingly difficult that no novice could even hope to perform them. And heaven help you if you write a scribe a single wrong rune! You might never be heard from again. If you got both of these mages to a place where their systems of magic work individually just like they do at home, and asked them how difficult it is to travel between planes, the novice would just laugh and say that it's not that hard, while the archmage would have an extremely different opinion.

Each of them have a totally different experience, that is extremely relevant under the rules of their own system, and irrelevant to the rules of the other's system. You think the novice cares how much effort planar travel takes for the archmage? It has no bearing on how he personally performs magic himself, because rules his magic operates under are different. He would start caring pretty quickly if he wound up in the archmage's universe, and suddenly the system of magic he uses no longer had any power.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

In Theurgy it depends on the relationship between the magician and the entity there is three case:
1-Submission: the entity is the master and the summoner is a follower or a disciple or a slave (possession)
2-domination:the summoner is the master and the spirit obey to his order
3-equal: the spirit and the summoner are in good term, the spirit can learn what it knows to the mage and the mage can call (summon) the spirit for help

Those are the three basic types of power-sharing relationships. I would argue that things could be just that simple, or infinitely more complicated. A lot of factors come into play when you are dealing with Thaumaturgy; how many parties are involved, what your relationship with each party is based on (mutual respect, dislike of a common enemy, worship), what kind of relationship each of the other parties have (You are a summoner who has a contract with two creatures, both of whom despise one another. They aren't happy about sharing a bond with you, but as long as you only call one of them up at a time things stay relatively peaceful), the personality of the entity or entities you have a bond with, and how compatible you are with them, etc.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

The theurgy is limited by the power of the spirit and how the summoner can stand it.

I disagree, but only slightly. I would say the power of Thaumaturgy (or Theurgy) is limited by the power of the spirit, and how much of that power it is willing to bring to bear. Or optionally, how much of that power the Theurgist can coerce out of the spirit. The summoner's ability to withstand the spirit's power is irrelevant (well, maybe not to the summoner himself, but to an objective observer).

If you summon the Lord of Destruction and he destroys the planet (with you on it), that doesn't mean that you were a weak Theurgist. It means that you were an idiot, for summoning a creature you knew could and would destroy everything in sight, without giving it a second thought. All those evil cults in fiction who raise elder gods and then get eaten by them are no exception; Like I said in my initial set of posts, the upside of Theurgy is that it can be absurdly powerful. The downside is that it can be the end of your life as you know it.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

It's not all the summoner who can summon the spirit completely, so the summoner becomes a kind of gate through the power of the spirit will pass.

This is a very good point, and completely true. I think that is a very interesting type of Thaumaturgy, as well. It is much less common than the generic "Oh, look, I summoned Bahamut!"-type of summoning magic, though. In a way, it is almost like a cross between spiritual possession and summoning. Most cultures with shamanistic beliefs have had practices involving that sort of magic at one time or another.

In a way, I suppose you could be considered the spirit's familiar, if your Thaumaturgy was based on that type of connection. It's worth thinking more about.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

You say the power lies in who you know so if I understand the difference between Theurgy and Ruled can be summed by this two questions who you know? and what you know? but it's not true to know someone you need to know how to deal with him in clear you know what you know.

Yes, and no. This is conditionally true, but again, it is the most important factor that determines the primary class of the magic. That factor is who you know for Thaumaturgy and what you know for Rule-based magic. Yes, to establish a relationship with a spirit you need to know who that spirit is, and how to properly approach him or her. But "What is the right way to say hello to King Trazix" is not the primary source of your power. That would be King Trazix himself, ie. who you know. There is more involved than just that, but that is the most important trait of Thaumaturgy; nothing else will ever be as crucial as that, because that is what defines Thaumaturgy! Now, "How do I convince him not to kill me?!" might be a very close second , but it is still of secondary importance to the question, "What is the source of your power?"

The "proper way to say hello" is not of primary importance, because just saying "Hello" the right way to King Trazix doesn't automatically bestow you with incredible power. If it was a proven fact that everybody who walked up to King Trazix and said, "Nice weather we are having today." suddenly gained the ability to control the weather, without any action on the part of King Trazix or any other spirit... then that would be a case of what you know being of primary importance. Because what you know in this case would be, "If you ask King Trazix about the weather, you get the power to control it!" The power in that case is in the rule itself, so when the condition is invoked, the associated action occurs.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

In general you can not deal with the Queen of the Erebus as you deal with a lesser demon in clear you need to know who she is to do that you need to gather information about her and how to deal with her. In clear you need to know the protocol in clear learn ruled-based spells like astral projection, mind control and how to convince and dimensionnal magic. In clear the summoner has in own spell who had been written in a ruled-based magic

Yes, you're absolutely right. In general, you can not deal with the Queen of Erebus the way you would any "common" demon. But the reason for that is not because there is a magically-empowered rule preventing you from doing so. It's because she will do terrible, terrible things to you if you do so. See the difference there?

If Queen Faldhatée arbitrarily decides to show up and tear off a person's head every time someone calls her "Queen Hottie", then "Nobody calls Queen Faldhatée "Queen Hottie" and lives!" is not a magically-empowered rule in and of itself. It's just a really darn good suggestion to follow, because otherwise Queen Faldhatée will personally end your existence. This means it is not an example of Rule-based magic in action.

On the other hand, if Queen Faldhatée spent a cubic ton of magical power and cast a spell over all of Felarya that instantly incinerates any mortal who calls her "Queen Hottie", then "Nobody calls Queen Faldhatée "Queen Hottie" becomes a magically-empowered rule in regards to mortals in Felarya. This is an example of Rule-based magic in action. In this case, the rule is, "If you are a mortal, and in Felarya, and you utter the words "Queen Hottie", you will spontaneously combust." The power has been imbued into the rule itself, and it only activates if all of the conditions are met.

If you are an immortal in Felarya, and you yell, "Queen Hottie!" at the top of your lungs... nothing happens. You failed to meet one of the conditions, so the power of the rule is not invoked. If you are a mortal in Erebus, and you yell, "Good morning, Queen Hottie!" at the Everburning Palace... you aren't going to spontaneously combust, because you are not on Felarya (you WILL still die once Faldhatée gets her hands on you, but it won't be due to the Rule-based magic she invoked).

If the nature of the magic is that the power lies in the spell itself, or the "rules of magic" themselves, then it is primarily Rule-based. If those rules are not the most important factor that eclipses all the other factors, or the rule is not itself magically-empowered... then the magic is not primarily Rule-based.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Your explication about the difference are very paradoxical because Contrary to a ruled-mage master in dimensionnal magic the Theurgy system deal with the non- physical or supernatural or physcal dimension but if in a ruled-based the existence of demon or supernatural creature is proven so all the theurgy becomes a tradditionnal school of magic where the shaman deals with both the physical and dimensionnal force

This is somewhat true, but the paradox largely hinges on the conflicting viewpoints. According to the Rule-based mage, the shaman's magic would be a traditional school. However, the shaman might not feel that to be the case. The Rule-based mage can not authoritatively tell the shaman how the shaman's magic works; because he is not the shaman. Anything that the mage "knows" about the shaman's magic is based only on observation and theory, not actual first-person experience or experimentation.

What he can do is tell the shaman how he believes the shaman's magic works, and what he should and should not be able to do. He might be right, he might be wrong. The shaman could have a contract with a water spirit who can not cast fire spells, so the mage tells the shaman that it's impossible for him to cast fire spells with his Thaumaturgy. If the shaman's reply is, "Wanna bet? " and he suddenly shoots off a fireball... well, the mage has been proven wrong. It made sense according to everything he knows that the shaman would not be able to cast fire spells, but he was just proved evidence directly to the contrary. (Edit: "... just provided with evidence that directly contradicts his knowledge" is what I meant to say. Bleh, must be tired. )

In parting, I'll leave you to consider this widely misunderstood point: Science works the exact same way. Anyone who offers, "It's scientific!" or "It's true because science says so!" as an explanation in and of itself for anything is either willfully trying to mislead you, or doesn't really know what they are talking about. There is nothing in the Universe that is true "because Science says so"; anyone who insists otherwise has a poor understanding of the principles guiding science. Stating that something is true because Science says so is an example of circular reasoning, which is itself unscientific.

Sorry to rant, I got a little worked up by a pretty entertaining conversation about Newtonian physics with someone the other day, who was talking about the Law of Thermodynamics (as an absolute law of the Universe) without really understanding it. When I told him that it was a fact that Newton's Laws can be and are violated every single day, I thought his head was going to explode.

Quote :

This is somewhat true, but the paradox largely hinges on the conflicting viewpoints. According to the Rule-based mage, the shaman's magic would be a traditional school. However, the shaman might not feel that to be the case. The Rule-based mage can not authoritatively tell the shaman how the shaman's magic works; because he is not the shaman. Anything that the mage "knows" about the shaman's magic is based only on observation and theory, not actual first-person experience or experimentation.

What he can do is tell the shaman how he believes the shaman's magic works, and what he should and should not be able to do. He might be right, he might be wrong. The shaman could have a contract with a water spirit who can not cast fire spells, so the mage tells the shaman that it's impossible for him to cast fire spells with his Thaumaturgy. If the shaman's reply is, "Wanna bet? " and he suddenly shoots off a fireball... well, the mage has been proven wrong. It made sense according to everything he knows that the shaman would not be able to cast fire spells, but he was just proved evidence directly to the contrary. (Edit: "... just provided with evidence that directly contradicts his knowledge" is what I meant to say. Bleh, must be tired. )

You understand my point thanks

In my opinion the base of the Theurgy is the fact the user claims the rule of his spell come from surnatural or divine creature.

I never say there is an universal law in magic, but in the external point view by example for non-magician user, a ruled-based mage fighting a theurgy it won't see the difference they all do magic. The mage will claim, "my magic come from my study from the school of Negav" and the Theurgian will claim "I learn my magic comes from the holly text of Bobo the monkey god"

If the mage win is he superior to the monkey god not really because he the theurgian who lose not his god. In clear is like the endless debate between Science against religion. Because it's two different institution with their own laws and point of view.

What I mean the ruled-based system there is few place to the coincidence contrary to Theurgy who will claims it's the action of surnatural being.

PS: In ruled-based magic even if you did the spell correctly it can have some untold side effect which has discover lately by example a mage cast the spell he used to go to his house but due to a solar eruption he land in Felarya. In this case a new rule is discovered

Edit:

Quote :

Sorry to rant, I got a little worked up by a pretty entertaining conversation about Newtonian physics with someone the other day, who was talking about the Law of Thermodynamics (as an absolute law of the Universe) without really understanding it. When I told him that it was a fact that Newton's Laws can be and are violated every single day, I thought his head was going to explode.

Don't worry, it always fun to speak with you
An advice if someone argue with you universal law. You are just to say a law can be writen, rewriten, cut, eaten,contorted or whatever you want to do with it, but it will be always you and only who will decide its meaning.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

You understand my point thanks

Yeah, I do. Llike I said, I agree with most of what you say, it's just a few of the details that we're quibbling on.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

In my opinion the base of the Theurgy is the fact the user claims the rule of his spell come from surnatural or divine creature.

In my opinion, the base of Theurgy is the fact that the user claims the source of his power is a supernatural or divine creature. The rules that the creature sets are not as crucial to Theurgy as the magically-empowered rules are to Rule-based magic, because they are of a completely different nature. One is self-enforcing and imbued with power (Rule-based magic), and the other only has power when the supernatural entity steps up and enforces it (Theurgy).

If you take the power out of the rule itself and put it into the hands of the entity, you move from Rule-based to Theurgy. If the entity imbues a rule with power to allow anyone who follows or violates it to reap the reward or punishment automatically, without any further effort on the entity's part, then you move from Theurgy to Rule-based.

The line is drawn at the point where following the "rules" stops being just a really good idea and starts being mandatory. The main difference between "My goddess told me to do something, and if I don't she might punish me!" and "We have to do it, because it's the Word of God!" is a matter of where the heavy lifting is being done. If an entity is directly involved, the "rules" can be anything from "It's not so much a code, as a set of guidelines!" or "Do what I say, or I will bring down the divine wrath before you even finish thinking about questioning my authority!". There are a lot more factors involved; heck, if the entity is just totally flippin' insane, the "rules" could change at literally any moment.

"The rules" in a Rule-based system tend to be a lot more unflexible, and a lot more unforgiving. They are either valid or invalid, for any given set of circumstances. Rule-based magic just does not care how smooth a talker you are, or if you're a friendly and likeable guy. The only things it cares about are the following, "1) Do you meet the requirements for using me (if there are any)? 2) Are you following my rules down to the letter? 3) Are you doing anything that violates my conditions, or are there any mitigating circumstances I should know about?"

If the answer to #1 and #2 is "Yes", and the answer to #3 is "No", then Rule-based magic will always work reliably and in the expected manner, unless you mess up performing the spell. As long as you remembered to dot all the 'i's and cross all the 't's, and didn't mispronounce any arcane syllables, you're golden.

Now, if any of the answers to the questions is the opposite ("Yes"/"No"/"No", "No"/"No"/"Yes"), then Rule-based magic will always not work in the expected manner. Unless the "expected manner" is "You know, I really expect this spell to blow up in my face, because I deliberately did what I wasn't supposed to!". For Rule-based magic to work right, all of the conditions of the rule have to be fulfilled. For something to go wrong, only one of the conditions needs to not be met (If all of them aren't met, that's generally when it stops being Fail and starts being Epic Fail).

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

I never say there is an universal law in magic, but in the external point view by example for non-magician user, a ruled-based mage fighting a theurgy it won't see the difference they all do magic. The mage will claim, "my magic come from my study from the school of Negav" and the Theurgian will claim "I learn my magic comes from the holly text of Bobo the monkey god"

I agree, sort of. In general, there isn't a Universal Law of Magic<tm> that spans all known universes. There can be a Universal Law of Magic<tm> that governs a specific Universe, but generally it will have no bearing at all outside the context of that single Universe. It's possible to have a Universe where the rule is that all magic is derived from divine beings, and no other magic exists or works. In that specific universe, you are either a Theurgist, or you aren't casting spells. It doesn't matter if you are a Hermetic mage trained at the greatest magic college in the known Universe(s) since childhood; while you are visiting that Universe, you are stuck playing by its rules unless some specific mitigating factor is involved.

If you happen to be drinking buddies with Bobo the Monkey God, then maybe he'll cut you some slack just for being his pal. You can cast spells in that Universe, although they work a little differently than you're used to, because you aren't casting them in the same way you always have. Or maybe he gives you an magic ring that lets your Hermetic magic work exactly the same way it does back home, as long as you wear it.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

If the mage win is he superior to the monkey god not really because he the theurgian who lose not his god. In clear is like the endless debate between Science against religion. Because it's two different institution with their own laws and point of view.

While I am sure that is what the mage would like to believe, that is a fallacy. The indisputable fact of the situation is that the mage has not proven his Ancient Negavian magic is superior to the power of Bobo the Monkey God, because he is not facing Bobo the Monkey God. At worst, he's facing Bobo the Monkey God's intern; at best, he's facing Upper Middle Management.

The only thing he has proven is that the combination of his knowledge, skill, and personal power is superior to the combination of the Priest of Bobo's knowledge, skill, personal power, and amount of Bobo's power the priest has access to. Facing the representative of a deity is the not the same thing as facing a deity. Just because you can beat the Archangel Gabriel in a fist fight does not mean you can beat God in a fist fight.

So while the mage can say the power of Ancient Negavian Magic is superior to the power of Bobo the Monkey God, it is just not true. He can go and tell all of his friends, and that still does not make it true, until he comes into a situation where he can prove that his magic is superior to the power of Bobo the Monkey God. In fact, the only reason he will even be able to get away with claiming that he is superior to Bobo the Monkey God is if Bobo the Monkey God allows him to.

Mythology is full of stories where humans arrogantly claim to be superior to the the gods, and wind up getting smited. Greco-Roman mythology is really big on that. Sometimes (rarely, but it happens) the human gets away with their claims scot-free. This doesn't mean that the claims are true, or that the deity is afraid to put them to the test. Maybe Bobo the Monkey God just doesn't care what some snot-nosed brat from Negav thinks. Maybe he's out drinking with his buddies. Or maybe it just takes him a while to find out that some puffed up mage is talking about him behind his back, and he immediately heads to Felarya to sort things out.

Guess what? Now that mage just earned his chance to prove that his magic is superior to the power of Bobo the Monkey God, because Bobo the Monkey God is pissed off and breathing down his neck. That is the only way he can possibly prove that his magic is superior to the full power of a deity; by actually facing the deity itself and not one of its followers. Any other situation is comparing apples and oranges.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

What I mean the ruled-based system there is few place to the coincidence contrary to Theurgy who will claims it's the action of surnatural being.

A Theurgist will claim that it is the direct action of a supernatural being. A magically-empowered rule can be established by the action of a supernatural being, but it stops being Theurgy (and starts being Rule-based magic) because a self-sufficient rule requires no further direct action by that supernatural being. A supernatural being is still responsible in both cases, but the inherent power of the magic now comes from different direct sources.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

PS: In ruled-based magic even if you did the spell correctly it can have some untold side effect which has discover lately by example a mage cast the spell he used to go to his house but due to a solar eruption he land in Felarya. In this case a new rule is discovered

This is completely and totally true. See my earlier statement about Rule-based magic and unexpected results. Sometimes, the unexpected result is that the spell blows your head off. Sometimes, the unexpected result is that you discover something new by accident. In this case, the "punishment" for violating the rule of the magic actually works out in your favor... but it isn't something that will do so reliably every time.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

Don't worry, it always fun to speak with you

Thanks, I've really been enjoying this discussion, too. You've given me a lot to think about.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

This is my theory of magic.
(I wrote this for fun, I had the idea and I needed to get it out of my head. It's got lots of holes... So I'm open so suggestions.)

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Hmmm. Some interesting ideas. If you don't mind, I am going to deconstruct them a bit to poke at those holes, before I offer suggestions.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Magic energy is extra-dimensional. (It exists in more than the 4 dimensions that most living creatures can observe).

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Where does it come from? It is fine to say that one of its properties is multi-dimensionality, but where is its source? Is it just cosmic "background noise", diffused into the fabric of all dimensions? Or is there an unreachable higher-level dimension that no being can physically access, from which magical energy cascades down into the dimensions "beneath" it, similar to the process of entropy? Are there rare occurrences that result in magic universally not working or working differently (dimensional misalignment, conflicting universes connecting with one another, etc.); effectively, are there times when that higher-level dimension stops raining down magical energy on the other dimensions (if that is how you decide it works).

I didn't mean dimensions as different worlds or universes. I meant it in the way that magic moves in more ways/directions than just the 3 (or 4) we observe.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

There are different types of magical energy divine, demonic and neutral. Different types are suited to different spells. All types are sentient.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

What is the main difference between the types? Do they come from different sources? Do they have different intrinsic properties? Could an angel (a divine being), for example, use demonic magic? Or is that strictly out of the question? You said that they are all sentient, which is interesting... and can pose some unique problems when you really think about it.

That idea was the last and probably the worst idea I had, even though I put it at the top of my post (I don't know why I did that now).

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Is the main difference between Divine and Demon magic that the types of magic themselves hate one another? If a Divine caster can cast a Demonic magic, does it whisper in the back of their mind about how much better off they would be on its side of the fence? Or does the very act of them casting a Demonic spell really tick off the will of Divine magic, and lead to insta-smites? Where does Neutral magic fit into the picture? Is it there sort of acting as an intermediary, or does it just sit back and let Divine and Demonic go for one another's throat?

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Powerful magi do not need to cast spells, the magic is sentient, and understands what they want. Only extremely powerful beings can do this, such as guardians.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Why? Why do you have to be a "powerful mage" to not need to "cast spells"? If magic is sentient, and can understand what it is a caster wants to do, why does it care how powerful the mage is? In fact, why does it care what the mage wants to do at all?

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

If what a mage wants to do is hit someone with a fireball spell, and magic thinks the best thing to do in the situation is teleport out of there... what happens? Does it just do what the mage wants anyways and let them die, or does it take a "Magic knows best!" approach and watch their back?

Again, one of the last ideas I had(I have no idea why i put them at the top). Thinking about it now, it doesn't make much sense. But that's why I posted this, so people can point out the inconsistencies.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Magic energy can be stored in crystals, metals and to a small extent, stones.
The capacity of a crystal is determined by it's hardness and it's flaws.
This means that a huge diamond may not be able to store as much energy as a small diamond, if the small diamond is perfect.
Crystals, metals etc, can hold more magic if the magic is in the form of a spell, the spell gives the magic 'shape,' therefore it is less likely to shatter the object. Too much power can destroy the object with possibly catastrophic results. In Felarya there is so much background magic that crystals can build up magical power without any spells being cast.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

So... all crystals, metals, and stones are magical, to some degree or another? Why? What makes them a good storage medium for magical energy, as opposed to... say, inscribing mystic runes on a scroll? You said the capacity of a crystal is determined by its hardness and flaws, which can make a lot of sense... but what determines the capacity of metal? Stone?

Stone can't hold much raw magic. When a spell is cast on stone it can hold more.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

If you just leave a flawless diamond lying around, does it naturally accumulate mystical energy, without you needing to channel magic into it? If the answer is yes, does it stop accumulating magic once it's "full", or if you leave a diamond lying around in Felarya does it eventually shatter due to mystical overload? Given the sheer abundance of gems found at the bottom of the Jewel River and all the ruins and mines, the answer would seem to be "No". How does your theory of magic incorporate or explain that? Do casters from your world, where that theory of magic works perfectly, just scratch their head in wonder when they come to Felarya?

I should have emphasized the fact that this process would take centuries. The only crystals that would have any usable magical charge when found are ones that have just been mined.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Magic can be converted to matter or be used to energize and control matter.
So, "earth magic" is the conversion of magic energy to a solid form, or the use of magic to manipulate solids. "Fire magic" is the use of magic to convert matter to plasma. Air magic is the conversion if magic energy to kinetic energy, fire and water also use this to some extent.
"Water magic" is the use of magical energy to rapidly condense water vapor out of the air. Powerful wizards and spell-casters can also fuse oxygen and hydrogen in the air to create water.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

You said before that the different types of magic are suited to different spells. Do all of them do the exact same thing to energize and control matter? Not all "Fire magic" deals with plasma; it tends to be based more on thermodynamic principles; when you break those down, you're really dealing entirely with kinetic energy and its effect on molecular structures.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Why is "air magic" more suited to the manipulation of kinetic energy than "fire magic" is, under this system of magic?

Air magic is not suited to it. That what it is...
Under my system of magic an 'air' mage may eventually learn how to use 'fire magic.' Part of my idea was to remove the class system of magic. Water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen. In gas form, these elements can burn, so what is the difference between the two?

(continued)

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Are all instances of magical energy-to-matter conversion classified as "earth magic"? What about if I want to create and manipulate plastic, instead of soil? Move metal using magnetic fields, instead of directly manipulating its molecules with magical energy? If all matter manipulation via magic involves directly controlling a substance's molecular structure, why does it take a "powerful" spellcaster to fuse oxygen (probably what you meant) and hydrogen to create water?

'
When I wrote this hyopthesis I didn't want to restrict magic to 'fire,' 'water,' 'earth' and 'air.'
Plastic is a macro-molecule, it would be hard to create these in quantity.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

The use of magic to animate inanimate objects...
I'll use a golem to explain my theory in this area, it's easier.
An animating spell cast on a golem rearranges the molecules in a way that allows movement. The spell then kinetically charges the molecules. A golem with a crystal on it will last longer than a golem without, because the crystal can hold magic for longer than clay can. Golems without a magical power source would need to be constantly maintained.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Are If metal can store magical energy in the same way a crystal can, and you can arrange a golem's molecules in a manner that allows for complex actions like movement... why not just make a golem entirely out of metal? If you're dealing with molecular manipulation, and you can animate clay, you can animate metal just as easily... unless there's some underlying cause preventing you from doing so. Even if you're dealing with crystals, why can't you set up some kind of link that transfers magical energy to a crystal remotely, so that you don't have to keep recharging the golem?

I never said it was impossible.

Alternately, It would be possible to cast a spell that causes a golem to draw energy from a different source; like the heat from a fire.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Mind control magic requires spells equal to the complexity of the subject's mind. Some spells simply remove the will of the subject, so they can be ordered to do anything. Other spells implant a conscious or sub-conscious suggestion, like hypnosis, except much more powerful.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Why is that? Are extremely powerful mages an exception, since they don't need to cast spells? Since the different types of magic are all sentient, and have their own will, can a mage just convince magic to take over someone's mind? And if magic can do that, what keeps it from arbitrarily deciding to take over anybody's mind whenever it wants? Maybe Divine magic doesn't do it because "that would be wrong", but why would Demonic magic agree to play by the honor system? Does that mean that Demonic and Neutral magic are better suited for mind-control, illusion, and hypnosis spells than Divine magic is, under your theory?

As a said before, divine demonic and neutral magic was the last part of my hypothesis that I added and the most inconsistent with the rest.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Scrying, observing and spy magic, the use of magic to observe distant places and people.
This magic can work in a number of ways.
Visible spy spells create a globe of magical energy that transmits a picture to be displayed on another object, like a mirror. If the spellcaster is skilled, he or she can make the globe invisible.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Why a globe of magical energy, and why does the picture have to be displayed on another object? Why does it take a skilled spellcaster to use "invisible spy spells"? Some of the most common observation spells in fictional works are connecting one's sight to an animal or spiritually possessing the animal and using its senses for your own purposes, and using a "scrying pool"; which is nothing more than forging a sympathetic link between two bodies of water, for instance using the water in a cup to view the reflection of a subject near another body of water somewhere else. What about clairvoyance and astral projection? Are they possible under your theory, and how are they accomplished if they are?

They are possible. I'll post how later.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Another sort of observing spell creates a wormhole in space, but only allows light and energy to pass through. Usually sound would not be able to pass through. but and additional spell can be cast through the portal (Since magic is energy and energy can move through the portal) to create a kind of microphone.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Why wouldn't sound be able to pass through? What keeps you from creating a wormhole that allows light and sound to pass through; which is technically already possibly, if light and energy can pass through. In fact, consider what that really means for a moment. If you are creating a wormhole that unconditionally allows light and sound to pass through... what is keeping a mage from sending through a fireball or concentrated beam of light (laser) and roasting your rear if they happen to notice you spying on them? Very, very dangerous and overly complex way to accomplish something simple!

It is.
I didn't say that these were the only ways in which this could be accomplished.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

The microphone spell works by creating a disc of air that is filled with magic. As sound vibrations enter the disc, they are converted to magical energy and sent to the other side of the viewing portal. This spell can also be used to provide sound on visible spy spells, the disc is just part of the magical globe.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Again, I kind of question the neccessity here. If you can create a spatial wormhole that lets you see someone through it, you can create one that lets you see and hear someone through it. It would be a matter of the time and effort you put into the spell. Why would you need to make a disc of air that picks up incoming sonic vibrations, converts them into magical energy, sends them across a link, and converts them back into sound? That is a whole lot of energy expended, on top of what you used to create a wormhole in space. And again, consider what happens if a harmful noise comes across the link; a burst of sound powerful enough to shatter stone, or a hypnotic melody. If that disc of air microphone is perfectly translating every sound it picks up, the caster eavesdropping could be in serious trouble!

The caster could simply modify it to only pick up sounds in a certain range or destroy the link if a loud enough sound was received. I didn't say that this was the only way, just a possible method.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

I was going to post this in the off-topic section. But this topic seemed more appropriate.
I have a headache now...

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

Yep, that's what this topic seems to be for. I'm really glad to read a few more viewpoints on the matter, it really helps put things into perspective. Sorry about the headache. And now for the suggestions!

You have some pretty interesting ideas about how to do things, and that is the best place to start when it comes to creative writing. It may seem like I was nitpicking every little details about your theory, but it is not because I was trying to shoot your ideas down. I was hoping to get you to think about the questions, and consider how to explain them within the context of your theory. It's hard to explain "every little thing", which is why a lot of people don't even bother; to be honest, no matter what you do, there is still someone who will ask a question you have not thought about yet. That's why discussions can be so much fun!

It seems to me like you took the "top-down" approach to magic, and created a system based on that. You started right out the gate with "Magic energy is extra-dimensional.", and then worked your way down to examples on how it is things are done under your theory. There is not anything wrong with that, but that is not how I do things personally. The "top-down" approach has its strengths, but the main problem with it is that you tend to notice the forest and not the trees, if you aren't careful.

When I am designing something in a creative writing context, I try to remember that the characters are the lens through which the readers are going to experience events. As such, it is important to think not only about what magic (or anything else) is and how it is done, but what the character thinks it is and how (s)he does it. In essence, it is the "bottom-up" approach; viewing a scene of two spellcasters throwing fireballs back and forth. From above, as an unbiased observer, what they are doing is the same; they are both throwing fireballs.

Look at the same scene from the viewpoint of the characters, though. What is one thinking and experiencing as she casts the spell? Is she just chanting off a widely known sequence of syllables that has been unchanged for thousands of years to cast a generic, AD&D-style 3rd level "Fireball" spell? Or is she reaching out, gathering magical energy, exciting the molecules in the air around her until it combusts, and forming the resulting flames into the shape of a ball? How is she experiencing the event, and how is her opponent (an observer at the same level of existence) experiencing it?

What do you want "her"- that character you created in your mind- to be able to do, and what do you want her not to be able to do (this is just as important, and in some cases more important!). Once you have an idea of that, consider the mechanics behind how she does it, and what others see when she does it. Then, all you have to do is establish a cohesive framework that links together the things she can do, and explains the things she can not do. And bang, you have a "theory of magic" that covers the magic system you just created!

This is just how I do things, though; I'm not going to insist that it's the best way to do it, or appropriate for everyone. Different strokes for different folks and all that. I really do hope it helps, and if you (or anyone else) found anything worthwhile in the post, I guess I accomplished what I intended.

Thanks.

I had to rush this so i might not have answered some questions. I'll come back later.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

I didn't mean dimensions as different worlds or universes. I meant it in the way that magic moves in more ways/directions than just the 3 (or 4) we observe.

I did not mean dimensions as different worlds or universes, either. My use of the term "Higher-level dimension" was deliberate and consistent with what you said. I really do not want to go off on a tangent discussing n-dimensional space, but I was not suggesting that "extra-dimensional" equates to "extra-universal". It is possible to travel dimensionally within a single universe (what you do every day of your life), or travel dimensionally between seperate universes that exist within the same n-dimensional model and have at least one dimension in common. This is why use of the term "dimensional travel" for "traveling to a parallel universe" is a fallacy; all movement happens dimensionally. You can travel to a parallel universe by moving along or between dimensions (in some cases), but you can also travel yet remain in the same universe by moving dimensionally.

Regardless, all energy within a system derives from somewhere, and I do not mean that in terms of where it is "created". Energy exists; it is stored and flows from a high-energy location to a low-energy location, as a method of balance. Assume we are using an n-dimensional model that recognizes 5 dimensions, and dimensions 1-3 comprise the 3-dimensional realm we perceive, while dimension 4 is a higher-level dimension, and dimension 0 is a lower-level dimension. All five dimensions are of a spatial nature, but the properties of dimension 1-3 allow for physical substance (matter) to exist, while 0 and 4 are strictly non-physical (matter can only exist in the form of energy).

A property of dimension 4 is a excess of energy (magic), while a property of dimension 0 is a deficiency of energy (magic). This imbalance results in energy (magic) naturally moving from dimension 4 to dimension 0 in an attempt to correct the imbalance. Because a property of magical energy (as you stated) is that is extradimensional and can move in "every dimension at once" (not your exact words, but what it really boils down to), this results in magical energy moving along dimension 4, crossing the dimensional boundary and moving in all three dimensions of the physical realm at the same time, and crossing the dimensional boundary into dimension 0. It continues to move as far along dimension 0 as it can (which is an infinite distance); but for all intents and purposes regarding the levels of the dimensional model, that energy has cascaded from the highest-level dimension to the lowest level dimension possible, where it has come to "rest".

Anime-Junkie wrote:

That idea was the last and probably the worst idea I had, even though I put it at the top of my post (I don't know why I did that now).

Noted. I'll disregard that for now, although I don't think that it is a bad idea. It's just, if you want to do something like making magic itself sentient, you need to consider what that means on a conceptual level and design your model around it. You can't just tack it on as an afterthought, otherwise you encounter the sort of issues I pointed out. You can make it work, but you need to have it as a main focus rather than just something that got tossed in.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Again, one of the last ideas I had(I have no idea why i put them at the top). Thinking about it now, it doesn't make much sense. But that's why I posted this, so people can point out the inconsistencies.

It doesn't make much sense in that particular context, no. Like I said, it is still workable, but if it's not something you really want to do, we can let it go. I think you'll find a lot of the advice you get here very helpful; gwadahunter came up with some great points and ideas I am still thinking about, several days later.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Stone can't hold much raw magic. When a spell is cast on stone it can hold more.

Why? Is it just a matter of "Because that's the way it works!", or is there a detailed reason behind it? You might want to consider the properties that make an object or substance suitable for storing magical energy. Think about the similiarities and differences between all the substances you want to be able to store magical energy. One property that most crystals, metals, and stones have in common is a crystalline molecular structure; if you want that to be one of the properties that determines a good storage medium for magical energy, then you have something pretty solid to work with. But some metals and stone are amorphous and don't have a crystalline structure; do you want them to still be capable of storing magical energy, or not?

Remember, everything is completely up to you, I am only trying to make some helpful suggestions on items you may want to consider. You get to determine how the magic you create works, when it call comes down to it.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

I should have emphasized the fact that this process would take centuries. The only crystals that would have any usable magical charge when found are ones that have just been mined.

Or ones that have been sitting on the bottom of the Jewel River undisturbed for a few centuries? Or do they need to actually be inside the earth, gradually accumulating energy as long as they are "part" of the earth itself, until they are 'seperated' from it (by being dug up and worked)?

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Air magic is not suited to it. That what it is...

"Air" is not equivalent to kinetic energy (I am not saying that is what you mean, only trying to prove a point). The "wind" is not kinetic energy, even if at the basest level, kinetic energy is responsible for it blowing. All movement is kinetic energy. When you boil it down to the basics, "Heat" is movement. If "Air magic is kinetic energy" then "Fire magic is kinetic energy" as well. But I think that is what you're getting at, anyways.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Under my system of magic an 'air' mage may eventually learn how to use 'fire magic.' Part of my idea was to remove the class system of magic. Water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen. In gas form, these elements can burn, so what is the difference between the two?

So, under your system of magic, there isn't really any such thing as "Air Magic", "Fire Magic", "Earth Magic", or "Water Magic". The distinctions between them are artificial and subjective (purely a matter of perspective). Now, this isn't true for all systems of magic (generic elemental-based systems in particular), but that is irrelevant because that's how your magic system operates.

Okay, that's cool. Some people are in favor of magic like that (I think Gregole mentioned it earlier), and it tends more towards versatility than most elemental systems. I do have to wonder why a practicioner of your magic system would even bother to use the term "Air magic" or "Water magic", though, if there isn't any real difference between them. Is it cultural thing that they just wound up holding onto, even after their knowledge of how magic "works" became more advanced?

Anime-Junkie wrote:

When I wrote this hyopthesis I didn't want to restrict magic to 'fire,' 'water,' 'earth' and 'air.'

In that case, it is probably better to just do away with the concept of elemental magic altogether. Instead of trying to force magic into fire-based or water-based fields, just modify your model of magic to state that "While you can create, manipulate, or diffuse fire, water, earth, or air with magic, there really is no such thing as magic based exclusively on "fire"."

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Plastic is a macro-molecule, it would be hard to create these in quantity.

Okay. Interesting. I will elaborate on that later.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

I never said it was impossible.

I never said you said it was impossible. I was just pointing out a few issues to see if your magical theory took them into account.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Alternately, It would be possible to cast a spell that causes a golem to draw energy from a different source; like the heat from a fire.

Noted. Again, I think this is interesting.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

As a said before, divine demonic and neutral magic was the last part of my hypothesis that I added and the most inconsistent with the rest.

Right. That still leaves the matter of how mental spells function in your magic system, or if they are even possible. After all, your style of magic does not have to be able to do everything, just what you want it to. Sometimes the limitations of a model do a better job of defining something than the model's functionality does.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

They are possible. I'll post how later.

Alright.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

It is. I didn't say that these were the only ways in which this could be accomplished.

Granted, but it was the only example you gave, so I worked with it. I am still curious as to what the advantage in using a method that complex would be over one of the other possible methods. But honestly, it's just idle curiosity and totally irrelevant; me knowing the answer has no bearing on the fact that there are other methods.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

The caster could simply modify it to only pick up sounds in a certain range or destroy the link if a loud enough sound was received.

Alright. The fact that they have that option resolves that issue nicely.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

I didn't say that this was the only way, just a possible method.

You are correct, and I apologize. I misunderstood what you were meant regarding the observation spells; I assumed you were talking about how that type of magic worked in general, rather than how specific spells (given as examples) worked. My bad.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Thanks.

I had to rush this so i might not have answered some questions. I'll come back later.

No problem. I look forward to hearing more about this. As I said before, you have some very interesting ideas, and the system you came up with is fairly well-developed. It seems- and this is just my opinion- to be based primarily on molecular manipulation (via magic); you may want to emphasize and develop that aspect further.

When you mentioned that it would be very difficult to create large quantities of a plastic with magic, I pictured a mage after a long day's work, rubbing his temples to try and chase away a migraine, and grumbling about doing too much molecular manipulation. I imagine it would take a lot of mental exertion to accomplish something like that, regardless of how much magical energy you have to perform the task.

*Tears up his own magic theory*

I think the main problem with magic is defining it. (At least for me it is) TheQuantumMechanic got me thinking about this when he said that I had taken a top-down approach to my theory.

TheQuantumMechanic wrote:

When I am designing something in a creative writing context, I try to remember that the characters are the lens through which the readers are going to experience events. As such, it is important to think not only about what magic (or anything else) is and how it is done, but what the character thinks it is and how (s)he does it. In essence, it is the "bottom-up" approach; viewing a scene of two spellcasters throwing fireballs back and forth. From above, as an unbiased observer, what they are doing is the same; they are both throwing fireballs.

Look at the same scene from the viewpoint of the characters, though. What is one thinking and experiencing as she casts the spell? Is she just chanting off a widely known sequence of syllables that has been unchanged for thousands of years to cast a generic, AD&D-style 3rd level "Fireball" spell? Or is she reaching out, gathering magical energy, exciting the molecules in the air around her until it combusts, and forming the resulting flames into the shape of a ball? How is she experiencing the event, and how is her opponent (an observer at the same level of existence) experiencing it?

MAGIC that isn't 'magic' at all, but it still allows 'magi' to throw fireballs at each other, teleport and generally defy the laws of physics, at least thats what it looks like to the average observer:
If anyone has read the book "The Ship Who Won" by Anne McCaffery, they will know what I'm talking about. For those who haven't:
Plot: A 'Brainship" (That is, a spaceship controlled by a deformed human encased in a titanium shell, the ship is like their body) along with her "Brawn" (a person that isn't encased in titanium that forms a team with a brainship) land on a planet that is inhabited by a) Sorcerer Overlords. and b) Slightly de-evolved humans that are kept drugged so that they work without question.
The Sorcerers use 'Artifacts of Power' to do magic. These artifacts draw power from "Heart of Oorzan" (Oorzan is the name of that planet, I have spelt it wrong).
If you might read this book don't reveal the spoiler below.

Spoiler:

So, That wasn't magic at all, just extremely advanced alien science. But to the casual observer, it is. It allows the throwing of fireball, seemingly unpowered flight, teleportation, etc.

Also, we must differentiate 'magic' from Reiki, Qi, Chakra and all the other names there are for that. In Raymond E. Feists Serpentwar saga there is 'Reiki' and magic . In this great work of fiction 'Reiki' is the naturally occuring energy that exists in all beings. It can be used to heal or it can be focused in hand to hand fighting to make strikes more powerful. And then there is the magic; the green glowing crystals, lightning and fireballs.
So... there's magic and reiki (or whatever you wanna call it). Right..?

What is magic?

Anime-Junkie wrote:

MAGIC that isn't 'magic' at all, but it still allows 'magi' to throw fireballs at each other, teleport and generally defy the laws of physics, at least thats what it looks like to the average observer:

There are several things that can accomplish similar effects: Technology, psychic powers, magic, 'physical' activity by extradimensional or supernatural beings such as spirits and fairies, Reiki/Qi/Chi-based powers, etc.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

So, That wasn't magic at all, just extremely advanced alien science. But to the casual observer, it is. It allows the throwing of fireball, seemingly unpowered flight, teleportation, etc.

Just like this example.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Also, we must differentiate 'magic' from Reiki, Qi, Chakra and all the other names there are for that. In Raymond E. Feists Serpentwar saga there is 'Reiki' and magic . In this great work of fiction 'Reiki' is the naturally occuring energy that exists in all beings. It can be used to heal or it can be focused in hand to hand fighting to make strikes more powerful. And then there is the magic; the green glowing crystals, lightning and fireballs.

We don't have to know what magic is to differentiate it from psychic powers or Reiki abilities, or anything else. It's as easy as answering the following:

Can the power be used in a region or environment where magic does not exist, or simply can not be used, without an external mitigating factor being involved?

If the answer to that question can be proven to be "Yes", then the power most likely is not magic.

If the answer to that question can be proven to be "No", then the power most likely is magic.

There you go, Magic differentiated from Reiki, psychic powers, technology, biological mutations, and anything else.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

So... there's magic and reiki (or whatever you wanna call it). Right..?

Yep, plus a bunch of other things. For the particulars about Reiki, I would recommend my pal gwadahunter's thread on the subject, which can be located here.

Anime-Junkie wrote:

What is magic?

The matter has been debated among archmages for the past several thousand years. The good news is, they're getting pretty close to an answer. The bad news is, "close" means "still several thousand years away from a rational explanation".