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PostSubject: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeFri Jul 29, 2011 8:09 am

Another collaborative effort between myself and Cauldronborn24.
This is something we did a while ago. I figured it wasn't doing any good just sitting there so I've posted it here.
This explains a few things, especially 'why the Magiocrats didn't just subdue the Vishmitals with magic as soon as confrontations between the two sides began.'
It also explains why portals too and from tend to open in forests, deserts and other natural places.

For the actual document; click here if your browser plays nice with google docs.

If you are unable to use google docs, Click here:
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeFri Jul 29, 2011 10:06 am

I'm skeptical about this theory because it's more a limitation to a specific type of magic than magic itself and the fact there is material which are naturally resistant to magic like the insects' shell and other more artificial like the xythium (this one has been added lately is not a good example) which are magical and physical resistant. Even if Magic exist in nature as any raw materials we use it doesn't mean their application are as more natural and nature-friendly than any chemical or industrial creations did in any advanced world.

Quote :
Unnatural processed materials, like carbon fiber, kevlar, and advanced alloys or ceramics are highly magic resistant. This resistance means such materials will not be effected by magical enchantments or spells, likewise they cannot be enchanted or enhanced by magic in any way.
The properties of this material are made mostly for physical properties and not magical ones, none of this materials have been made to face any type of magic in particular just by they are created artificially they can't gain a specific magical resistance like that.Magic is not bonded by the same rules as physics even if we can give pseudo-scientific explanations to it, it's a different mater.

If a mage cannot alter this kind of material it's not because it can't but just it didn't know in what they are made.
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeFri Jul 29, 2011 11:46 am

Gwada, this isn't something Cauldron and I came up with because we simply like the idea or we think that it'd be a neat story mechanic (although it could be).

This was crafted specifically to explain why powerful mages don't simply magically subdue their opposition pre-emtively; as the Magiocrats would have logically done to the Vishmitals when things began to look hostile.

If, as you say, Magical conductivity isn't worthwhile, answer the above question.


As Karbo has stated many times, Felarya is about balance. Should mages be simply able to defeat an otherwise-formidable, high-tech-armoured soldier simply by mind controlling the soldier into shooting themself in the head?
At the moment, they easily can.
In both Cauldronborn's and my mind, this is not balanced and raises significant problems with the believability of any tech-mage engagement.

This evens the playing field so to speak. (Note that resistant does not equal immune.)
To use the previous example; Instead of mind controlling the armoured soldier with a mere thought, the mage has two options, concentrate more of their power, or knock the soldier's helmet off.

Note also the proposed impact on portals, the note about Felarya not having a large industrial base and also the note about higher conductivity in living (or otherwise) organic matter. This gives credence and explanation to a shaman's bone staff, insect's magic resistance and the legendary potency of blood magic.

Half the stuff I'm saying here is in the document. I suggest you re-read it and consider what is actually being said.

Quote :
The properties of this material are made mostly for physical properties and not magical ones, none of this materials have been made to face any type of magic in particular just by they are created artificially they can't gain a specific magical resistance like that.
This is your own assertion. It's just as valid as me stating the exact opposite.

Quote :
Magic is not bonded by the same rules as physics even if we can give pseudo-scientific explanations to it, it's a different mater.
I fail to see how this has any bearing on the subject of this thread, considering that it deals with magic.

Quote :
If a mage cannot alter this kind of material it's not because it can't but just it didn't know in what they are made.
Partially true in my book, but still your own assertion.
Back things up mate, instead of just asserting it.
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeFri Jul 29, 2011 11:59 am

This idea receives my support.
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeFri Jul 29, 2011 2:00 pm

Surprised something liek this wasn't brought up before. It sounds like it'd work
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeFri Jul 29, 2011 3:25 pm

Yo, take a deep breath and relax.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Gwada, this isn't something Cauldron and I came up with because we simply like the idea or we think that it'd be a neat story mechanic (although it could be).

This was crafted specifically to explain why powerful mages don't simply magically subdue their opposition pre-emtively; as the Magiocrats would have logically done to the Vishmitals when things began to look hostile.

If, as you say, Magical conductivity isn't worthwhile, answer the above question.
You miss completely the point.

I didn't say in my comment your theory isn't worthwhile or something like that so calm down. To be skeptical doesn't mean you're theory is bad or something like but just some points raised some interrogations and I want to discuss it with you.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
As Karbo has stated many times, Felarya is about balance. Should mages be simply able to defeat an otherwise-formidable, high-tech-armoured soldier simply by mind controlling the soldier into shooting themself in the head?
At the moment, they easily can.
In both Cauldronborn's and my mind, this is not balanced and raises significant problems with the believability of any tech-mage engagement.
You miss the point again
As the topic deals with your theory I stayed with it. We are not here to discuss about Karbo'statement and how you respect it or not. I'm not here to speak about that.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
This evens the playing field so to speak. (Note that resistant does not equal immune.)
We are both agree here.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
To use the previous example; Instead of mind controlling the armoured soldier with a mere thought, the mage has two options, concentrate more of their power, or knock the soldier's helmet off.
Or turn the soil under the soldier's feet into quick sand or simply lower the oxygen level around him etc... There are a infinities of possibilities. But I'm not here to speak about that what a mage can or cannot do.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Note also the proposed impact on portals, the note about Felarya not having a large industrial base and also the note about higher conductivity in living (or otherwise) organic matter. This gives credence and explanation to a shaman's bone staff, insect's magic resistance and the legendary potency of blood magic.

Half the stuff I'm saying here is in the document. I suggest you re-read it and consider what is actually being said.
The problem you didn't really understand my point and you are overacting. Calm down I will re-explain it for you.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Quote :
The properties of this material are made mostly for physical properties and not magical ones, none of this materials have been made to face any type of magic in particular just by they are created artificially they can't gain a specific magical resistance like that.
This is your own assertion. It's just as valid as me stating the exact opposite.
yes it's exact.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Quote :
Magic is not bonded by the same rules as physics even if we can give pseudo-scientific explanations to it, it's a different mater.
I fail to see how this has any bearing on the subject of this thread, considering that it deals with magic.
Wow, you take it too much personally, I never say you fail somewhere I just explain my point about the opposition between natural and unnatural is a moot point.

Anime-Junkie wrote:
Quote :
If a mage cannot alter this kind of material it's not because it can't but just it didn't know in what they are made.
Partially true in my book, but still your own assertion.
Back things up mate, instead of just asserting it.
Calm down yourself, take a deep breath read what I will write from now.

Your theory is similar that the conductivity of electricity in overall, I didn't say I don't like it or it doesn't worth. It's the opposite, I like it Very Happy
My point is about the natural vs unnatural opposition, as with magic an be used to create synthetic material as we do with chemistry or any scientific process. You give a good explanation in what some industrial material can't be less conductive to magic than more natural and raw ones ok cool but it doesn't make them magic proof systematically. Altering a material can affect it's physical and magical resistance and properties OK but doesn't turn it instantly magic proof. You can turn a highly conductive to magic in less conductive one and vice-versa. This is not really the point. Now where I'm a bit skeptical is the fact some synthetic fiber like kevlar will turn into a magical proof or nullify magic due to its synthetic nature as it has never been made for that. Kevlar as a strong weakness against hot temperature which a fire enchant blade or a fire ball will be as lethal as a normal or a cold enchant blade or a rocket explosion. Cold can strengthen Kevlar as it is stronger at lower temperature but to be resistant doesn't mean it nullifies. The cold or fire made by the enchant won't be nullify completely by the fact Kevlar less conductive to magic. The hole made by the blade which is conductive will act the electrodes of a taser piercing you skin to deliver electricity into your body. Your theory is helpful to explain why material are more resistant to magic than others but it's just I think opposing natural and unnatural material is a unnecessary and moot point.

About balancing Felarya, in overall there are many ways to balance things and many people have ideas to balance the world you and Cauldron are among them but not the only one. I won't argue here to say if the idea is balanced or not it's not my point or what I post in this thread.

About Vishmintal about Magiocrat, Vishmintal possess a natural resistance to any mind control abilities magical or not, the ones who are in Negav are more the diplomatic one they are not a clear representation of their military power and abilities as the Delurans and Miratans too. In overall the Vishmintal are here to rebuild their empire first than dealing to the magicrate and they make all the things pass after that but it doesn't mean they are not secretly study magic used by their rival and develop weapons and material to be effective against them, I don't think they are a bunch of incompetent fool. To be honest with you, I more scared by Nozon the Vishmintal who are helping Lessona than she because this guy know more about the true nature about the thing they are going to activate.
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeFri Jul 29, 2011 3:41 pm

Something that occurs to me is that if a Vishitmal Mechanised Trooper ever met a fairy in the forest, she would be all "I'm gunna shrink & eatchu." and when it didn't work, he'd be all BA-BLAM-BLAM "Yay, wings for me." I like what you've done with this, but I have to say, it makes more sense if you just say that no one would be stupid enough to build a million-dollar suit of powered armour and not incorporate some kind of defense against magic - training to resist mind control, maybe a psierin gem to help. Felarya is saturated in magic, so I doubt that the vishitmals would just ignore such a powerful tool, especially seeing as they are supposed to be obsessed with rebuilding their empire. Don't forget, while the ps'isol magiocrats are exclusively mages, that doesn't mean the vishitmals are exclusively grunts with technology.

Also, saying that portals don't open up on industrialised or polluted worlds strikes me as being rather limiting. How did the vishitmals get to felarya in the first place then? How did they bring their technology over?

Finally, if mages can subdue people with mind control that easily, then why not just enslave preds rather than run away from them? They aren't exactly swimming in unnatural materials. It makes more sense just to say that mind control is very, VERY hard - you are taking control of another's mind and subduing their willpower, and it would be next to impossible to get them to ignore the most powerful urge, their instincts for self-preservation.

Oh, and isn't conjuring up a fireball or making a portal to another world or taking control of another's mind kind of unnatural in the first place?

Gwada got another post in first, so sorry if I restate some of his thoughts.
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeFri Jul 29, 2011 3:46 pm

Ah, something else just occurred to me. Wouldn't the vishitmals (and indeed, all of negav) need to import things like steal from offworld? I seriously doubt that there are any major mining operations going on in the ascarlin mountains - y'know, what with all the succubi slurping up miners on a regular basis. Fifteen dudes with magic and some picks strikes me as being more likely.
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeFri Jul 29, 2011 4:57 pm

AJ, I must say, this seems a little rushed and incomplete, especially by the standards I've come to expect from you and CB.

As unprecedented as this may be, I find myself partially agreeing with Gwada. You state that "natural" materials are compatible with magic, and "unnatural" ones are not, but naturalness is an intangible property. It has no bearing on electrical conductivity, it has no bearing on thermal conductivity, it has no impact on any other physical property at all. It makes very little sense to me that it'd impact magic.

I understand that this is motivated by balance concerns, but there are plenty of other ways. I'd imagine that magic-proofing via technology is far from impossible, and it still preserves the power of both magic and technology by not allowing any fool with a kevlar vest to be magic-resistant in his chest.

Mind-control is about willpower. Just try to do that to a highly-disciplined, highly-trained, and possibly fanatical soldier. You'd best be subtle about it, or he's just going to pump your belly full of lead. I mean, if you're concerned about balance between magic and technology, consider this: it takes a mage of considerable power to safely walk through the Chidokai forest, but a couple hooligans with high-caliber machine guns and a vehicle to mount them on can probably roll right through most opposition. Problem, mages?

All in all, my main objection is that this is all based upon some intangible difference between substances based upon properties that only make a difference to the sapient perception of a material, not nature's thrall over it. This seems to have been produced solely to patch up some perceived plot hole, and that makes it a plot device. I can see no difference between this, and the various other productions from numerous authors stating that things work because they work.
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeFri Jul 29, 2011 8:16 pm

@Gwada, you misread me (text has no tone), I'm not uncalm, I'm just trying to get an explanation out of you, and it appears I have succeeded.

Zion, naturalness is defined:
Quote :
Certain industrial processes lessen this magical conductivity of a substance that would naturally display it; the more processes it goes though, the less magically conductive it will be. A material or substance which is totally artificial or created through artificial means would display little to no magical conductivity.

Quote :
Also, saying that portals don't open up on industrialised or polluted worlds strikes me as being rather limiting. How did the vishitmals get to felarya in the first place then? How did they bring their technology over?
It says "highly unlikely", not "never." In any case the vishmitals weren't using one. They had their own dimensional gate.


Quote :
AJ, I must say, this seems a little rushed and incomplete, especially by the standards I've come to expect from you and CB.
Cauldron and I discussed this idea a while back (May 19th) and he wrote up the document as you see it. After that, we didn't do much with it.
I didn't want to see it just sitting there, so I decided to post it.

Honestly, I should have re-read the document again before posting it, but it was late at the time and I was tired.
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeFri Jul 29, 2011 8:47 pm

Anime-Junkie wrote:

Zion, naturalness is defined:
Quote :
Certain industrial processes lessen this magical conductivity of a substance that would naturally display it; the more processes it goes though, the less magically conductive it will be. A material or substance which is totally artificial or created through artificial means would display little to no magical conductivity.
I never said it wasn't defined. I said it wasn't tangible, from a physical point of view.
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeFri Jul 29, 2011 9:29 pm

Anime-Junkie wrote:
@Gwada, you misread me (text has no tone), I'm not uncalm, I'm just trying to get an explanation out of you, and it appears I have succeeded.
Ok, fine Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeMon Aug 01, 2011 6:36 pm

ok time to get some science up in this shit here

Basically I've taken your magic and boiled it down into a science, with formulas and definitions and everything!

Terms:

Mana: the base material for use in magical activity

Reservoir: Natural Energy generated from natural sources, can come from organic or inorganic materials

Imbued mana: Mana that has been mixed with reservoir energy, generally comes from non-organic sources as when mana is mixed with organic reservoirs the purpose is to spark a catalyst for a spell. Imbued mana provides special effects when contacting an organic creature, such as the felaryan soil would be a case of mana imbued with the felaryan soil's natural energies.

Spell power: the base power of a spell

Magical Tolerance: The amount of mana an organism can allow to flow through their body before suffering physical strain

Magical Resistance: How much Magical power a person/object can prevent before sustaining damage

Channeling time: Amount of time needed to cast a spell, extra channeling time can be added to increase potency.

Mana Charge: the amount of mana one can draw in over a period of time, generally refered to as mana per second.

Augments: Outside objects used to enhance casting with traits like reducing casting times or just flat power boosts (like staves, tomes, or other magical tools)

Casting Units (bad name, need a cooler one but for now this): numeric value to represent magic

Minimum Power Requirement: the minimum amount of magical power required for a spell to be effective.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok now that you know the important terms, you can start using the terms to devise formulas

Now first step when calculating magic is to determine the power of the spell cast. Each spell has a base power, and a base cost that requires one to use reservoir energy to spark the catalyst for the spell. Extra reservoir energy can be added to a spell to increase the damage. The general fomula for casting a spell is as follows.

P = R + C + A
Parameters R >= B
P = power
R = Reservoir Energy
C = charge power
A = Augment power
B = Base Reservoir cost

However this formula is not enough as you need to calculate the charge time which is calculated as follows

C = (M + A) * T
Under the Parameter that C >= B
Where
C = charge power
M = Mana Charge
A = Augments
T = time (in seconds)

With these two formulas we can calculate the power of a spell.

Example: a basic fireball spell requires 5 casting units of both reservoir energy and mana to use and the caster has 5 mana charge power and charges for 1 second. This makes the formula for the base power of the spell this spell without any augments this:

C = 5 * 1

P = 5 + 5

So using math we can tell that the base power of a fireball spell is 10 casting units.

Now let's calculate with a little more numbers required. The Caster puts in 15 units of reservoir energy into the spell and has a mana charge ability of 10 he chooses to charge for 5 seconds. With an staff that increases magical power by 20 and mana charge by 10. Now the formula goes as this.

C = (10 + 10) * 5

so C = 100

P = 15 + 100 + 20

the power output of the fireball is 135

Let's try again with a black hole spell (base mana cost 9001, Reservoir Cost 100) and a cast by a mage who puts only 50 reservoir energy in, has a mana charge of 15 and charges for only 4 seconds. Since neither parameter is met in etiher formula, the spell does not work.

Once the power is calculated you have to cast it against resistances. The formula for magical resistance is:

R = N + A
Where
N = natural resistance
A = Augments

So a target with a natural resistance of 50 and bracers with a resistance power of 40, the target would have a resistance power of 90 casting units.

The formula for magic effectiveness is

M = P - R
Where
M = Magical Efficiancy
P = Magical Power
R = Resistance

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now let's take the caster with the 135 casting unit power attacks the target with 90 resistance

M = 135 - 90

so the spell would deal 45 casting units of damage.

If the Magical Effectiveness of a spell is 0 or less, the spell will have no effect.

Spell reflection is a wild card and does not even require the formulas since it is a rare phenomenon that breaks the rules of spells.

Well that's my explaination of magic and hopefully it's right, tell me if I left anything out and I'll fix it up.
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeTue Aug 02, 2011 3:32 pm

ZionAtriedes wrote:
AJ, I must say, this seems a little rushed and incomplete, especially by the standards I've come to expect from you and CB.

As unprecedented as this may be, I find myself partially agreeing with Gwada. You state that "natural" materials are compatible with magic, and "unnatural" ones are not, but naturalness is an intangible property. It has no bearing on electrical conductivity, it has no bearing on thermal conductivity, it has no impact on any other physical property at all. It makes very little sense to me that it'd impact magic.

I understand that this is motivated by balance concerns, but there are plenty of other ways. I'd imagine that magic-proofing via technology is far from impossible, and it still preserves the power of both magic and technology by not allowing any fool with a kevlar vest to be magic-resistant in his chest.

Mind-control is about willpower. Just try to do that to a highly-disciplined, highly-trained, and possibly fanatical soldier. You'd best be subtle about it, or he's just going to pump your belly full of lead. I mean, if you're concerned about balance between magic and technology, consider this: it takes a mage of considerable power to safely walk through the Chidokai forest, but a couple hooligans with high-caliber machine guns and a vehicle to mount them on can probably roll right through most opposition. Problem, mages?

All in all, my main objection is that this is all based upon some intangible difference between substances based upon properties that only make a difference to the sapient perception of a material, not nature's thrall over it. This seems to have been produced solely to patch up some perceived plot hole, and that makes it a plot device. I can see no difference between this, and the various other productions from numerous authors stating that things work because they work.
I have to agree with Zion here.

Now, I will admit haven't read the entirety of the spoilered part in the opening post...
But it would appear the general gist of it is the more "processed" a material, the less "Magically Conductive" it is, right?

Personally, I think this creates a needless amount of complications, like how this re-enforces a schism between magic and technology.

There is also the vague property of how processed something is...
How is that determined?!?!
How is something determined to be "artificial" when industrial processes are just manipulations of the same rules governing nature ones?!

Really, this idea is inherently flawed, as it stems from a believe that the Vishmitals need an additional edge to to put them on the same level as the Magiocrats.
I always assumed that the reason the Vishmitals were a viable threat in the first place was because they were a large, well-organised, and competent military force that makes use of things like intelligence gathering to identify potential dangers and plan accordingly.

As for why the Magiocrats didn't simply "subdue" them to begin with?
Well probably by the time they were identified as a threat, the Vishmitals had enough military power in place to make the ensuing war create enough collateral damage to cripple Negav.
Hell, their planned retaliatory response to the Mages trying to take them down was most likely blowing up the Isolon Eye, forcing Negav to be dependant on their firepower to defend it.
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeTue Aug 02, 2011 3:49 pm

Nekko, while I can see the effort put into this and do respect it, I still find it to be quite convenient. It seems too simplistic, like the mechanics of a video game. Physics are hardly ever that cut-and-dry.
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeTue Aug 02, 2011 6:20 pm

ZionAtriedes wrote:
Nekko, while I can see the effort put into this and do respect it, I still find it to be quite convenient. It seems too simplistic, like the mechanics of a video game. Physics are hardly ever that cut-and-dry.

Well yes variables put aside can certainly change things up, nothing's ever that simple, but I feel a basic framework is a good platform to begin with. After all if you want to apply some logic to it there is a magic acadamy, they have to have some way of teaching the basics of magic now don't they?
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PostSubject: Re: Magical Conductivity   Magical Conductivity Icon_minitimeTue Aug 02, 2011 6:30 pm

I concur. In fact, I'm working on my own, more in-depth version of this. I may use some of this as a starting point.
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