Spectrum of energy (magical or otherwise)

This has just been a thought I've been grappling with, but if it makes sense to anyone else it might just offer explanation to how and why some of the odd things in Felarya happen. We all know about the electromagnetic spectrum from high school physics, with the longest wavelengths of energy (radio waves) on one end, and the highest frequency (gamma rays) on the other, with every other form of radiative energy somewhere in between. You would assume that the various forms of magical energy (mana, or whatever its called) would follow some sort of pattern as well. On the highest end, there would be pure holy energy, which imposes order upon any physical matter that it interacts with. It forcefully causes anything that it touches to be in its proper state, time, and space. For example, hit a demon with enough holy energy and he'll be sent straight back to hell where he belongs. Hit just his arm and only the arm will be sent back, but that's still a very powerful weapon against all beings who "don't belong" wherever (or whenever) they happen to be. On the far end of the spectrum is demonic energy, which has the exact opposite effect. It causes entropy and chaos to happen in physical space, and can create a multitude of different anomalies, anything from illusions to the ripping of time and space itself. The various unusual events that happen in Felarya (for that matter, the existence of Felarya altogether) might well be attributed to a mysterious convergence of demonic energy. All other forms of magic fit somewhere between these two categories. Necromancy is probably somewhere closer to demonic magic, while healing is a variant of holy energy. All other types of magical techniques could probably be easily explained to make use of one, the other, or both. All living beings have some amount of both energies that naturally exist within their bodies, which gives them their perspective in time and space. Humans are peculiar because they have precisely as much holy energy in them as they do demonic energy, which means that not only will they make sufficient prey for just about any creature's energy needs, but they themselves have just as much potential to become angels, demons, and anything in between.

It can be interesting

Actually, this topic is somewhat of a specialty of mine. I apologize ahead of time for the length. I'm just plain long-winded. So, better get yourself a drink...

I'd say such energies wouldn't be on the EM spectrum. Most energy isn't, like heat or kinetic energy (note: do not confuse heat with infrared). See, electromagnetic energy is composed of particle-like photons that travel in a wave pattern.

However, I believe that's not what you were suggesting. I'm simply clearing up any confusion. My main idea of "magic" was really various manifestations of the same energy. That's very much what you were saying (a spectrum is only truly separated by wavelengths/frequencies). However, I'd never considered it to be wavelike in nature. Instead of acting upon the physical plane like other energies, it exists on a fourth dimension perceived only subconsciously (consciously, through training or rare natural talent) in the mind. In fact, this "astral" dimension could be considered the interconnection of all minds, like the Internet is with computers. But, once again, the Internet exists as waves and signals in our three dimensions of length, width, and height/depth. This is much more complicated and confusing.

Now, anyone who's seen most of my posts will know I detest the idea of magic. By that, I mean a force that makes sometimes-impossible reactions, physical or chemical, happen without any scientific reason or explanation. That's just a pet-peeve of mine. Since I've participated in numerous RPs that use such ideas, I've become a little talented at making up creative explanations. Another pet-peeve is the misuse of the term "dimension". A dimension is a direction or plane of being. Our world contains three of them, which I've already listed. Some say time is a fourth, but I've recently rejected that idea for reasons I won't go into right now. Another world such as Felarya is better explained as another "universe". The transfer between universes may be attained through dimensional bending/warping (another misused word!), but this is only to serve as a bridge. Cypress is working on a paper about that, actually.

Oh, I've gotten distracted. Back to the fourth dimension. Once the energy of the astral plane is run through the mind, it will engage various mechanisms within the body or the environment (which suggests that all things, not just minds, may have connections to this dimension) to either transform channeled energies to other forms (fire, electricity, telekinetic force), or create material atoms (matter is simply energy trapped in a material form, according to the Big Bang theory, as well as the Kabbalah).

I seem to have encountered a problem in your view of Holy energy, I'm afraid. It's really just opinion, but I've basically grown so arrogant I can't stand it when someone's ideas differ greatly from mine (I do apologize). Now, I've always seen Holy energy as a positive energy of a type differing from astral. This could be countered by Unholy energy, as both cancel each other, like matter and antimatter. I'd say it's generated by living soul rather than mind. This avoids blasphemy: "so, you say God's energy is at the level of Satan's?!?" No, it's generated by faith or corruption. For this reason, "evil" individuals, not just demons, would be sensitive to Holy energy, and vice-versa. It depends on your personal strength of good/evil. See, the whole "put things where they belong" thing sounded too "magical" to me, but you're free to run with it, if you want. I'm no socialist, so feel free to form your own ideas. I'm only putting in my two cents (though it's quickly becoming much larger, isn't it? Sorry!).

On necromancy, I'd think that deals with "life energy", not demonic. See, it makes sense when you see it like this: there are three types of existence, being Living, Dead, and Undead. The last one can be obtained through several means, which I won't go into. Living produce life energy (qi, chakra, hugr, prana, whatever you call it), but do not radiate it, but instead it remains bonded to them, usually in blood. Dead don't generate it, and as such, their souls leave (note: ghosts could be considered a fourth type) and their bodies deteriorate. Undead range in forms: vampires retain mind and soul, but still need life energy to keep their bodies from rotting away, they get that from blood; zombies only being animated by the manipulation of life-energy (for it can be manipulated) of a necromancer, and thus not having souls, and must be constantly resupplied with life energy by the necromancer, though some can get it on their own. The reason Holy energy is lethal is that almost all types of Undead are animated through dark, evil, and Unholy means. However, since zombies lack generated Unholy energy, they have little defense. Vampires are stereotypically extremely Unholy, and thus sensitive to Holy energy.

WOW. That was my longest post EVER. My... fingers... HURT!

I was actually using the idea of the electromagnetic spectrum more of an analogy than a direct explanation. Either way, my point has been made.

Mickilla wrote:

..lots of text on magic as a spectrum...

I'm not saying that you idea of a single "spectrum" is a bad one, but I've always liked somewhat more complicated systems because they allow for more complexity. D&D has one such "more complex" system, characters having both Good and Evil alignment and also a Chaos-Order alignment as well. This allows for the creation of "crazy Demons" and "methodical Devils" that act differently but are equally as Evil. Higher dimension systems have even more potential for complex characters, at the cost of possibly duplicating part of any already existing dimension and of course being harder to balance in a game or game like setting.

(When I speak of "dimension" I am speaking in pseudo-mathematical terms, where each independent, mutually orthogonal variable is it's own dimension. The Holy-Evil spectrum is one dimensional, as the only variable is where a character falls on the spectrum. The D&D Order-Chaos Good-Evil system is two dimensional, as you character is both somewhere on the Good-Evil axis and also somewhere on the Order-Chaos axis, neither position dependent on the other. Larger systems are possible (if you take care to not duplicate dimensions), such as a three dimensional system that is Good-Evil, Order-Chaos, Loner-TeamMember.)

In terms of magic, I think a more complex system might be a better descriptor, say a system with some of the following axis: Good-Evil, Order-Chaos, Necromatic-Healing, Illusitory-Revealing. (It might be better to have things that aren't direct opposites like Necromatic-Healing to be separate axis in and of themselves, but that's another topic.)

ZionAtriedes wrote:

I'm only putting in my two cents (though it's quickly becoming much larger, isn't it?).

Yes, thanks to inflation to get value equal to the old two cents you actually have to put in about a buck fifty.

Quote :

This has just been a thought I've been grappling with, but if it makes sense to anyone else it might just offer explanation to how and why some of the odd things in Felarya happen. We all know about the electromagnetic spectrum from high school physics, with the longest wavelengths of energy (radio waves) on one end, and the highest frequency (gamma rays) on the other, with every other form of radiative energy somewhere in between. You would assume that the various forms of magical energy (mana, or whatever its called) would follow some sort of pattern as well. On the highest end, there would be pure holy energy, which imposes order upon any physical matter that it interacts with. It forcefully causes anything that it touches to be in its proper state, time, and space. For example, hit a demon with enough holy energy and he'll be sent straight back to hell where he belongs. Hit just his arm and only the arm will be sent back, but that's still a very powerful weapon against all beings who "don't belong" wherever (or whenever) they happen to be. On the far end of the spectrum is demonic energy, which has the exact opposite effect. It causes entropy and chaos to happen in physical space, and can create a multitude of different anomalies, anything from illusions to the ripping of time and space itself. The various unusual events that happen in Felarya (for that matter, the existence of Felarya altogether) might well be attributed to a mysterious convergence of demonic energy. All other forms of magic fit somewhere between these two categories. Necromancy is probably somewhere closer to demonic magic, while healing is a variant of holy energy. All other types of magical techniques could probably be easily explained to make use of one, the other, or both. All living beings have some amount of both energies that naturally exist within their bodies, which gives them their perspective in time and space. Humans are peculiar because they have precisely as much holy energy in them as they do demonic energy, which means that not only will they make sufficient prey for just about any creature's energy needs, but they themselves have just as much potential to become angels, demons, and anything in between.

To be perfectly fair, I'm extraordinarily lazy, and only skimmed through this paragraph - and only this one - but I like the idea you're applying here.

I share your disdain for that "magic > everything else" or "magic doesn't need to make sense" attitude. It not only removes all forms of suspense, it reminds me that this is fantasy and has no way of actually happening.

I also share your desire to explain magic as a pseudo-scientific principle. And I think this here is a fairly good take on the whole holy/demonic forces concept. It makes enough sense to work for me, and it's got a definite balance. Very nice work.

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I'm not saying that you idea of a single "spectrum" is a bad one, but I've always liked somewhat more complicated systems because they allow for more complexity. D&D has one such "more complex" system, characters having both Good and Evil alignment and also a Chaos-Order alignment as well. This allows for the creation of "crazy Demons" and "methodical Devils" that act differently but are equally as Evil. Higher dimension systems have even more potential for complex characters, at the cost of possibly duplicating part of any already existing dimension and of course being harder to balance in a game or game like setting.

I myself have always loathed the whole "good/evil" forces idea for one reason alone: Good and evil are relative. Defining magic forces based on such illusionary concepts quickly kills any suspension of disbelief for me and makes the universe seem VERY artificial.

GREGOLE wrote:

I share your disdain for that "magic > everything else" or "magic doesn't need to make sense" attitude. It not only removes all forms of suspense, it reminds me that this is fantasy and has no way of actually happening.

I agree with you, even if I'm a magic fan, each type of magic follow its own law and have a sense to its users. The first things when someone when they create a school of magic,it's to explain the laws. Like the different universe which can exist in mathematics.

In my opinion if "magic>everything else" in that case "everything else> magic"
I explain in the universe everything tend to balance, something can become extremely hot and suddenly become cold.

I agree with more complex than good/evil, cuz just like GREGOLE said, good and evil are relative. What you do is considered good for some and evil for others. It's impossible to achieve pure good or pure evil.

I also agree that "magic>everything else" is false. Each aspects are situational; good in some scenarios, horrible in others. One aspect will have a weakness that another one can cover, and the reverse is true. That's why I generally pick the medium, because it covers each others flaws while keeping the strengths in balance

The spectrum thing makes sense, but I would prefer it more complex. I would prefer it having more "variables" and more "conditions". I see magic as being something extremely complex, but not impossible to crack. You can uncover some of its secrets, but there will always be new secrets to uncover.

If I may input as well;

in magic, I think there should be balance, because "magic > everything else" just doesn't settle right with me.

If that were true, mages would rule Felarya, and that would suck.

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If that were true, mages would rule Felarya, and that would suck.

They kinda do.

Granted, it's predator mages, who have such power mainly due to their size. A level ten fireball for a demon harpy is a LOT bigger than a level ten fireball for a human. XP

I still say no amount of magic can replace a good ole' fashioned punch to the face.

GREGOLE wrote:

I still say no amount of magic can replace a good ole' fashioned punch to the face.

*tips hat in agreement*

Quote :

"magic > everything else"

Statements like this are made of ignorance and fail.

Anyway, unexplained magic does kind of urk me sometimes because it leads to stuff like this....

[joke]Duex Ex Machina: "I suddenly have the power to defeat you! I don't know how I gained this power though. It's like some sort of...magic!"

Plot Armor: "The Holy Armor is protecting him from damage! How is that possible?
"I...I don't know...it's like some sort of magic!"

And my favorite....

Plot Device: "The Felaryan Soil protects you from aging and disease."
"How?'
"I don't know. It's just the magic in this place."[/joke]

GREGOLE wrote:

I still say no amount of magic can replace a good ole' fashioned punch to the face.

Yeah
It remembers me a manga about magic.
A mage create a spell to break all your bones, it's cool but this mage has been defeated why?
The time he takes to cast his opponents to get closer and breaks all his bones with their fists

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"The Felaryan Soil protects you from aging and disease."

It's one of the mystery of the world, people comes from many worlds to explain it

It's certainly an interesting theory, and I agree with pretty much everyone else. Especially on the point of 'magic being inexplicable' and 'magic being overpowered'.

I would personally think that a fundamental factor in magic would be, 'give and take.' As in, there is a price for magic, and the stronger the magic the higher the price. This is commonly shown as mages using 'mana' to cast spells, but others use physical damage or even shortened life spans as the result of spell use.

In fact, if you don't mind me going off on a tangent, the absolute best system of magic I've ever seen would be in World of Darkness' Mage the Awakening game. The mages had the potential to be the most powerful characters in the game. This was largely due to the fact that you could make up spells, and you are only limited to what you can come up with. In fact, you didn't even have to know a spell, you essentially made your will manifest. There were several divisions of magic, being Life, Death, Fate, Time, Mind, Matter, Time, Space, Spirit, Prime (aka control of magic itself), and Forces (aka light, heat, energy, and physics) And by combining several 'schools' together you could do anything! (such as, Life, Matter, and Mind could make a living sentient creature. Using Spirit could add a soul, but that's optional) Kinda.

Here was the catch, magic wouldn't always work. It would backfire. But there was a logical system to it backfiring. The world rejected magic, and mages, as a principle. And sentient beings did even more. And so 'Vulgar' magic, ones that blatantly went against the laws of the universe such as shooting lightning from your fingers, were much more likely to go catastrophically wrong. And if a sentient person saw it happen, well that compounded the chance for failure. However, 'Covert' magic was less likely to disturb reality. That would include, say, making lightning strike someone from the sky. This system of great power, but terrible repercussions are how I see magic as being.

Of course, this specific system, or even ones like it wouldn't fit Felarya well as it is an inherently magic place. But the main thing is the idea of a downside, even if all it's only something like 'Spells take so long to cast, that the magician can be knocked out before he can finish'.

You know there is two things which won't change no matter what you try to do magic, physical, science, technology etc... there is always a chance of success and failure.
Things don't like 100% as we expect there is always a drawback

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

It remembers me a manga about magic.
A mage create a spell to break all your bones, it's cool but this mage has been defeated why?
The time he takes to cast his opponents to get closer and breaks all his bones with their fists

Is the Manga Fairy Tail?

mangamastermind wrote:

Is the Manga Fairy Tail?

Yeah

Daimo wrote:

"The Felaryan Soil protects you from aging and disease."
"How?'
"I don't know. It's just the magic in this place."

I'm actually working on an explanation for that. It deals with the "life energy" I mentioned earlier. I could also tie that in with why necromancy is weakened on Felarya.

In my opinion, the best incarnation of magic is the manipulation of matter and energy at an atomic/photonic level. If you're thinking that sounds like something off of Fullmetal Alchemist, you just spot-on figured out my main inspiration.

As to what Eric was saying, of course there'd be "equivalent exchange" (more FMA reference!). I'm not gonna be arrogant enough to say my "explanation" is the best of them all, but channeling energy of any sort would be taxing. The more energy, the more taxing. And, of course, the more complicated the procedure, the more concentration and brainpower required to coordinate it.

Logic, my friends, can be so very handy, even if it is flawed in areas due to our limited perception/understanding...

Very interesting thoughts here ^_^

Silent_eric : This is a great take, and really original. Many things to do with that ! ^_^

Karbo wrote:

Very interesting thoughts here ^_^

Aren't think-tanks great? Ah, it is refreshing to be engaged in a discussion with fellow thinkers.

About the property of the soil of Felarya, due to the unstable nature of the world. The soil helps you to support the different changes which may happen in the world. I don't think diseases disappear in Felarya they are still here.
When you come in Felarya I think you will die from all the diseases from different worlds at the same without the property of the soil
It explain how you can resist to external disease but not from the disease existing in Felarya

Karbo wrote:

Silent_eric : This is a great take, and really original. Many things to do with that ! ^_^

Yes! It really is. However, like I said, it doesn't really fit Felarya very well. I doubt many fairies will disbelieve magic when it is cast in front of them. Of course, such an explanation could very well fit in some other dimension quite well. And if a mage from that dimension came to Felarya, and mistakenly believed such rules were still in effect... Well, I'm sure you can guess how long he'd last.
Huh. I smell new character concept.

gwadahunter2222 wrote:

I don't think diseases disappear in Felarya they are still here.
When you come in Felarya I think you will die from all the diseases from different worlds at the same without the property of the soil
It explain how you can resist to external disease but not from the disease existing in Felarya

I more or less agree!
I think the diseases are still around in Felarya. After all, most diseases are caused by bacteria or viruses, which are basically just small organisms. I doubt Felarya soil just kills every bacteria that ever shows up. I believe that Felaryan soil just heals any damage accrued by sickness faster than it takes to accumulate. But then, that would mean as soon as someone leaves Felarya, all the diseases they've collected would kill the person in just a few days!
So there has to be another, or at least more to the explanation. The other explanation is that the soil somehow boosts the immune system to superhuman levels.
As for the Felaryan diseases and poisons, and why they still work, I'd say it has to do with either how strong they are, how fast they work, or simply that the disease is slightly magical, and as such bypasses the usual immunity granted by the soil.

Silent_eric wrote:

I more or less agree!
I think the diseases are still around in Felarya. After all, most diseases are caused by bacteria or viruses, which are basically just small organisms. I doubt Felarya soil just kills every bacteria that ever shows up. I believe that Felaryan soil just heals any damage accrued by sickness faster than it takes to accumulate. But then, that would mean as soon as someone leaves Felarya, all the diseases they've collected would kill the person in just a few days!
So there has to be another, or at least more to the explanation. The other explanation is that the soil somehow boosts the immune system to superhuman levels.
As for the Felaryan diseases and poisons, and why they still work, I'd say it has to do with either how strong they are, how fast they work, or simply that the disease is slightly magical, and as such bypasses the usual immunity granted by the soil.

This theory works pretty well, since it is very possible. And I don't have to worry about stepping out of Felarya, just to croak days later.

Silent_eric wrote:

So there has to be another, or at least more to the explanation. The other explanation is that the soil somehow boosts the immune system to superhuman levels.
As for the Felaryan diseases and poisons, and why they still work, I'd say it has to do with either how strong they are, how fast they work, or simply that the disease is slightly magical, and as such bypasses the usual immunity granted by the soil.

I think it's a better explanation
I was thinking the concept of vaccine, the soil help your immune system to adapt to the different diseases in a certain way your immune system become surhuman

Now lets stop and think about this, a good place to start is the text on the Felarya wiki page, which states the following: "The ground of Felarya cures all known diseases by simple contact. It revitalizes living beings and makes them grow - though the amount depends of the species - and grant a sort of immortality ( not invincibility of course ). In short you won't age, your body won't register any damage caused by time and you won't die from illness as long as you are on Felarya. Any non-lethal wound would completely heal in just a matter of weeks or days."

So we know you won't age, your wounds heal faster than normal, and somehow it will stop illnesses from killing you.

Why do we age? Because our cells have a limited number of telomeres, and when we run out they cease to be able to make perfect copies of themselves when they perform the process of mitosis. How do wounds heal at all? Through cells splitting to create new flesh to fill the gaps. And how do many diseases harm us? By destroying our flesh, one cell at a time.

Some form of magic that keeps our cells working at an unnaturally high level would explain having these effects happening simultaneously. That's my take on the subject.